New book

[dayandnightdriver]

:'(Deeply saddened by the need to victimize not only the dead but the living families of these tragic crimes. I don't think that some know the damage this does.Larry Cromptom, a good and kind man wrote some things that could of been left out to save pain for a certain victim. Now we have another LE who without thinking too much about it says things, whether true or not are just not helpful to this case. I understand the truth is the truth. But have we all not suffered enough with the vast knowledge we have of this case.

Then I read "would we be surprised that some victims were promiscuous." So the F$$$ what! The 60's and 70's lived a very different life than those who live in todays world. Women were blamed for what they wore, makeup, hair, who they associated with, and numerous other factors. Does that give a killer the right to rape and kill? Then serve less than a year for murdering ones soul. Rape does unbelievable, often irreparable damage to victims as their predators run free to attack time and time again. Without much of a consequence. I believe there should be no statutes on RAPE. There are Senators looking at this presently. Please advocate for stiffer penalties for these individuals. They are very ill and do not get the help they need or do not need. This is the question? I personally do not think they can be changed!

LE's take on this case is far different than those of victims. Clearly, we must NEVER harm the precious souls that have been through over 35+ years of torment and fear. There are some victims from Sacramento who have used their experience to help others. What better way to heal. Serving others is the best way to help yourself. 

[dayandnightdriver]

Regardless of my feelings all LE and a couple of others it will be important to me whether we agree or not. Then there are other newer writers I won't read, Including the ridiculous false information that was provided in Gray's book I never handled. There are a few on the horizon, like Michelle McNamara's I will read. But some just do not got the right stuff for this story and you must pick and choose the in and out you put in your brain. Nothing against anyone. Just have a few investigative reporters I trust and have faith it will resemble the truth the most. I will read Shelby's book. I will support Shelby in getting his story out, I will support a few others as well. There will be many others who support the others that are coming up! So everyone should have a shot..

[Deleted]

dengas

Thanks for posting Shelbys comments. Whatever we think of the results the Sac Sheriffs got and his old school attitudes about things his experience and the publicity his book will bring may spring something loose. You never know.

[slumbergirl]

Oct 2, 2014 1:09:42 GMT dayandnightdriver said:

:'(Deeply saddened by the need to victimize not only the dead but the living families of these tragic crimes. I don't think that some know the damage this does.Larry Cromptom, a good and kind man wrote some things that could of been left out to save pain for a certain victim. Now we have another LE who without thinking too much about it says things, whether true or not are just not helpful to this case. I understand the truth is the truth. But have we all not suffered enough with the vast knowledge we have of this case.

Then I read "would we be surprised that some victims were promiscuous." So the F$$$ what! The 60's and 70's lived a very different life than those who live in todays world. Women were blamed for what they wore, makeup, hair, who they associated with, and numerous other factors. Does that give a killer the right to rape and kill? Then serve less than a year for murdering ones soul. Rape does unbelievable, often irreparable damage to victims as their predators run free to attack time and time again. Without much of a consequence. I believe there should be no statutes on RAPE. There are Senators looking at this presently. Please advocate for stiffer penalties for these individuals. They are very ill and do not get the help they need or do not need. This is the question? I personally do not think they can be changed!

LE's take on this case is far different than those of victims. Clearly, we must NEVER harm the precious souls that have been through over 35+ years of torment and fear. There are some victims from Sacramento who have used their experience to help others. What better way to heal. Serving others is the best way to help yourself. 

Well said, Dayandnight.

I do not think that retired Detectives Shelby or Crompton meant to demean the victims, though.  I know retired Detective Crompton, and, as you say, he is a very kind man.  I do not know retired Detective Shelby, but someone I know has said he is a very kind man.  I think he just did not word his comment well.  Also, as Valentina pointed out, back then, detectives had no training in the emotional effects of rape on the victims.  Confusion about what has happened to them, as seems to have been the case with Janelle, is a classic reaction.  From what I have read in ST, "Sunny Walther" ended up divorced and living with a man who engaged in drug-related activities.  This should not be surprising.  The rape completely disrupted her life.   Did we know that in the late 1970s?  No. 

Yes.  LE still seems to have problems relating to victims and causing more harm.  They are just clumsy souls who need more education on trauma incurred by victims of sexual assault.  They just do not understand the victims or the predators.  Until they do, they will not listen to the victims nor will they be able to apprehend the highly-organized sexual predators, just the dumb offenders which are, thankfully, most of them. 

I completely agree with you about ending the Statute of Limitations on rape.  At least we have advanced from the 1970s, when a serial rapist might receive a sentence of 18 months.  We are making progress. 

[dayandnightdriver]

COMPASSION is a key word. Like DRAGNET used to say "the facts mam" well damn I cannot tell the facts without the trauma and feelings, pain and suffering that goes along with this. I just do not believe the training was available at the time and I tend to believe we do the best we can do until we know better. Today we are learning better and more effective ways to interview trauma victims. It has been a long time coming. I believe we will get there someday, maybe!

I want life without after a numerous offensives. It becomes clear that some individuals are not fit to live in our society, EARONS is one of those individuals. Life would of done many good things for this word! Thanks for the thoughtful words.

[Deleted]

Oct 2, 2014 1:36:08 GMT slumbergirl said:

Oct 2, 2014 1:09:42 GMT dayandnightdriver said:

:'(Deeply saddened by the need to victimize not only the dead but the living families of these tragic crimes. I don't think that some know the damage this does.Larry Cromptom, a good and kind man wrote some things that could of been left out to save pain for a certain victim. Now we have another LE who without thinking too much about it says things, whether true or not are just not helpful to this case. I understand the truth is the truth. But have we all not suffered enough with the vast knowledge we have of this case.

Then I read "would we be surprised that some victims were promiscuous." So the F$$$ what! The 60's and 70's lived a very different life than those who live in todays world. Women were blamed for what they wore, makeup, hair, who they associated with, and numerous other factors. Does that give a killer the right to rape and kill? Then serve less than a year for murdering ones soul. Rape does unbelievable, often irreparable damage to victims as their predators run free to attack time and time again. Without much of a consequence. I believe there should be no statutes on RAPE. There are Senators looking at this presently. Please advocate for stiffer penalties for these individuals. They are very ill and do not get the help they need or do not need. This is the question? I personally do not think they can be changed!

LE's take on this case is far different than those of victims. Clearly, we must NEVER harm the precious souls that have been through over 35+ years of torment and fear. There are some victims from Sacramento who have used their experience to help others. What better way to heal. Serving others is the best way to help yourself. 

Well said, Dayandnight.

I do not think that retired Detectives Shelby or Crompton meant to demean the victims, though.  I know retired Detective Crompton, and, as you say, he is a very kind man.  I do not know retired Detective Shelby, but someone I know has said he is a very kind man.  I think he just did not word his comment well.  Also, as Valentina pointed out, back then, detectives had no training in the emotional effects of rape on the victims.  Confusion about what has happened to them, as seems to have been the case with Janelle, is a classic reaction.  From what I have read in ST, "Sunny Walther" ended up divorced and living with a man who engaged in drug-related activities.  This should not be surprising.  The rape completely disrupted her life.   Did we know that in the late 1970s?  No. 

Yes.  LE still seems to have problems relating to victims and causing more harm.  They are just clumsy souls who need more education on trauma incurred by victims of sexual assault.  They just do not understand the victims or the predators.  Until they do, they will not listen to the victims nor will they be able to apprehend the highly-organized sexual predators, just the dumb offenders which are, thankfully, most of them. 

I completely agree with you about ending the Statute of Limitations on rape.  At least we have advanced from the 1970s, when a serial rapist might receive a sentence of 18 months.  We are making progress. 

Excellent post, SG!

I should clarify my opinion of what Shelby said about Janelle. I don't think he (or Crompton in his probable mischaracterization of "Sunny Walther") was being intentionally hurtful. It was unthinking and insensitive, but as we both said, cops truly didn't know how to properly respond to rape in that era. Most people didn't, especially men. It's not nearly as bad now, but it's still a problem.

I would have hoped that Shelby and Crompton had moved forward with the times on this kind of thing, and I'm disappointed that they didn't, but I need to keep in mind that both men are well older than my parents and people do have a way of getting stuck in their thinking. It's not as though retired cops receive ongoing, constantly evolving training in dealing with victims.

I'm certainly not dismissing Shelby's book before I've read it. I'm sure it'll have a lot to offer, as did Sudden Terror. At the same time, I'd love to be able to buy a book about EAR/ONS where I don't have to read around what, in the 2010s, feel like stunningly outdated ideas about victims. In other words, it would be nice if one of the cops who tried to catch EAR/ONS would co-author a book with a professional writer, or at least work with an editor.

I should also say that despite my anger at what Shelby said about Janelle, by the standards of this board I'd be considered part of the pro-LE faction.

[Deleted]

I think the type of mindset displayed by some of the investigators hinders their abilities to do their jobs well. It shows a close-minded, biased, unwillingness to think outside the box, and turning the blame for their inability to capture a criminal back on the victim.

SG said it well with this, "They just do not understand the victims or the predators. Until they do, they will not listen to the victims nor will they be able to apprehend the highly-organized sexual predators, just the dumb offenders which are, thankfully, most of them."

[dayandnightdriver]

Oct 2, 2014 2:58:36 GMT valentina said:

Oct 2, 2014 1:36:08 GMT slumbergirl said:

Well said, Dayandnight.

I do not think that retired Detectives Shelby or Crompton meant to demean the victims, though.  I know retired Detective Crompton, and, as you say, he is a very kind man.  I do not know retired Detective Shelby, but someone I know has said he is a very kind man.  I think he just did not word his comment well.  Also, as Valentina pointed out, back then, detectives had no training in the emotional effects of rape on the victims.  Confusion about what has happened to them, as seems to have been the case with Janelle, is a classic reaction.  From what I have read in ST, "Sunny Walther" ended up divorced and living with a man who engaged in drug-related activities.  This should not be surprising.  The rape completely disrupted her life.   Did we know that in the late 1970s?  No. 

Yes.  LE still seems to have problems relating to victims and causing more harm.  They are just clumsy souls who need more education on trauma incurred by victims of sexual assault.  They just do not understand the victims or the predators.  Until they do, they will not listen to the victims nor will they be able to apprehend the highly-organized sexual predators, just the dumb offenders which are, thankfully, most of them. 

I completely agree with you about ending the Statute of Limitations on rape.  At least we have advanced from the 1970s, when a serial rapist might receive a sentence of 18 months.  We are making progress. 

Excellent post, SG!

I should clarify my opinion of what Shelby said about Janelle. I don't think he (or Crompton in his probable mischaracterization of "Sunny Walther") was being intentionally hurtful. It was unthinking and insensitive, but as we both said, cops truly didn't know how to properly respond to rape in that era. Most people didn't, especially men. It's not nearly as bad now, but it's still a problem.

I would have hoped that Shelby and Crompton had moved forward with times on this kind of thing, and I'm disappointed that they didn't, but I need to keep in mind that both men are well older than my parents and people do have a way of getting stuck in their thinking. It's not as though retired cops receive ongoing, constantly evolving training in dealing with victims.

I'm certainly not dismissing Shelby's book before I've read it. I'm sure it'll have a lot to offer, as did Sudden Terror. At the same time, I'd love to be able to buy a book about EAR/ONS where I don't have to read around what, in the 2010s, feel like stunningly outdated ideas about victims. In other words, it would be nice if one of the cops who tried to catch EAR/ONS would co-author a book with a professional writer, or at least work with an editor.

I should also say that despite my anger at what Shelby said about Janelle, by the standards of this board I'd be considered part of the pro-LE faction.

I agree with both of you. We can only lead by example. I think for some elderly it won't likely change in this life. I do not believe or think it is malicious in any way. It is just their way of sharing the case. 

[dayandnightdriver]

Oct 2, 2014 5:41:10 GMT @privatecitizen said:

I think the type of mindset displayed by some of the investigators hinders their abilities to do their jobs well. It shows a close-minded, biased, unwillingness to think outside the box, and turning the blame for their inability to capture a criminal back on the victim.

SG said it well with this, "They just do not understand the victims or the predators. Until they do, they will not listen to the victims nor will they be able to apprehend the highly-organized sexual predators, just the dumb offenders which are, thankfully, most of them."

It was the times. Lack of training and yes could be close minded at times. Yes, SG said it well.

[Deleted]

A few years back we had a case in Stockton that illustrated the process versus results very clearly. An unmarried couple had an 18 month old little boy. He was her child by a previous relationship. The current BF was abusive, neighbors had called the police several times. Child Protective Services had paid several visits. The little boy had been to the hospital emergency twice. One night the little boy was fussy so the BF picked him up and threw hin across the room. The little guy died the next day. Somebody leaked the CPS file to the local paper and it was evident that all the forms had been filled out, the required counseling had been done etc. The department director told the media that the system had worked as planned, sadly the little boy died. It's a perfect example of process versus results

BTW. The little boy was a darling child. His grandparent were heartbroken.

[dayandnightdriver]

Sept 30, 2014 18:06:48 GMT drdoogie said:

Sept 30, 2014 16:15:28 GMT dbw said:

A séance? Oh, goody! A chance to gather some really meaningful evidence!

There was a former regular poster over at the main Zodiac message board who actually spent thousands of dollars for a "time-machine" off of the internet with the plan to go back and witness one of the Zodiac crimes to identify the perp. Seriously. He claims that he did just that and named one of the known suspects as the killer.  And now you know why he is a former member of that board... 

Really drdoogie, we cannot go back in a time machine. I am so sad to hear that

[portofleith]

Dengas,

Do you know if Shelby's book will discuss the POI who ran a karate school or the POI who was a Highway patrolman?  I know there were thousands of POI's eliminated and that Crompton discussed some very viable subjects in his book, but I am particularlyinterested in the top twenty or so that Shelby considered likely candidates at the time.

[stefano77]

I know this is a little off topic but has to do with Larry Crompton's book. I have read his book 3 or 4 times now. One thing got me thinking. In the book there was so many different cars seen at spots that the bloodhounds lost the scent at. Has LE ever checked used car dealerships in the areas to see if any of the owners or employees matched EARs physical appearance? It is always possible that he stole cars but this could be something too.

[dengas]

Oct 3, 2014 14:05:13 GMT portofleith said:

Dengas,

Do you know if Shelby's book will discuss the POI who ran a karate school or the POI who was a Highway patrolman?  I know there were thousands of POI's eliminated and that Crompton discussed some very viable subjects in his book, but I am particularlyinterested in the top twenty or so that Shelby considered likely candidates at the time.

I do not remember either being discussed.

[Relentless]

When?