New Book...Shelby

[albion]

Oct 8, 2014 20:02:28 GMT pendleton said:

Oct 8, 2014 19:53:07 GMT portofleith said:

Let's not forget the lockboxes on the doors of two homes of murder victims, a church undergoing massive renovation in Ventura at the time of the Smith murders, the condos Charlene was decorating, the home for sale across from the Witthuhn's, the Calle Real remodel, the homes and resorts under construction in Laguna Niguel, etc. etc.

These are more plausible connections. Based on the majority of the EAR crimes it also seems obvious that he chose the areas in which to offend in before he chose the victims which adds further weight to the concept that he did not know his victims before they presented themselves to him as just that. 

That is a good line of reasoning. One thing I have noticed while reading about these crappy rapists and killers, and I suppose, sadists in general, they don't want anything to do with a fair fight. They want to win, and they want you to feel responsible for your failure. It seems implausible for gsk to have gone into these homes randomly without some good idea of what to expect and some kind of exit strategy. It would seem he did do that since he carried a gun or knife. But in RC I would have expected some of the military people might have had a gun on their person when he was sneaking around doing all the recognizance that he must have done in order to have the upper hand time after time. It seems implausible that a sadist of such grand proportions would put himself in jeopardy so often. Unless he had some kind of wildcard. Like a get of jail free card. I don't think I have read anything which could possibly support the idea that gsk was prone to giving people a fair chance at escape. Didn't he sometimes give people the illusion that they could escape? But realistically the gun was always being pointed at the victims. The knives were always being pointed at the victims. The clues never lead to him. And the Sheriffs were always just a little bit late.

Port do you know how many LE badge wearing victims there were in the EAR crimes? Or even the VR crimes? Just curious. Statistically it would seem implausible to not have any LE victims wouldn't it?

[danmiami]

I read the preview of the new book and the dog incident is just absolutely revolting. Why don't we just add the death penalty to those who perpetrate crimes against innocent animals? Because as we can see most of them evolve into doing the same thing to people. Sooner or later that appears to be the case. Get them outta here and away from society. It just makes my blood boil. He also beat a poodle to death in Goleta prior to the Offerman/Manning attack correct? So he had to prove his manhood by bludgeoning little dogs. What a guy!!! Mommy would be proud!!!

I like to use the analogy of when you notice your car has been keyed and what you would have done to catch the perpetrator in the act. "God just let me go back in time and catch this SOB so I can ensure that is the last car he does this to!!"

Looking forward to reading the book and thanks for the links. Does anyone know if nonsecretors can have any blood type or are they limited to A or O types?

[portofleith]

Oct 8, 2014 21:30:08 GMT albion said:

Oct 8, 2014 20:02:28 GMT pendleton said:

These are more plausible connections. Based on the majority of the EAR crimes it also seems obvious that he chose the areas in which to offend in before he chose the victims which adds further weight to the concept that he did not know his victims before they presented themselves to him as just that. 

That is a good line of reasoning. One thing I have noticed while reading about these crappy rapists and killers, and I suppose, sadists in general, they don't want anything to do with a fair fight. They want to win, and they want you to feel responsible for your failure. It seems implausible for gsk to have gone into these homes randomly without some good idea of what to expect and some kind of exit strategy. It would seem he did do that since he carried a gun or knife. But in RC I would have expected some of the military people might have had a gun on their person when he was sneaking around doing all the recognizance that he must have done in order to have the upper hand time after time. It seems implausible that a sadist of such grand proportions would put himself in jeopardy so often. Unless he had some kind of wildcard. Like a get of jail free card. I don't think I have read anything which could possibly support the idea that gsk was prone to giving people a fair chance at escape. Didn't he sometimes give people the illusion that they could escape? But realistically the gun was always being pointed at the victims. The knives were always being pointed at the victims. The clues never lead to him. And the Sheriffs were always just a little bit late.

Port do you know how many LE badge wearing victims there were in the EAR crimes? Or even the VR crimes? Just curious. Statistically it would seem implausible to not have any LE victims wouldn't it?

Albion,  I am not aware of any law enforcement personnel who became EAR or ONS victims.  There are newspaper articles that imply that EAR changed the location of his next attack after an article appeared in the paper about the dentist who organized the CB patrol.  The next rape was located near the dentist's office.  There were victims who were high ranking military, including captains, majors and colonels.

EAR did fairly extensive homework in his prowling.  For example, another thread has discussed the case of victim #28.  Every day for two weeks prior to the attack on her and her husband, she would receive a hang  up call at precisely 12:10, when she returned home from a real estate class.  Ear had to have observed her schedule to make a determination that she would be home at precisely that time. 

[pendleton]

Oct 8, 2014 21:30:08 GMT albion said:

Oct 8, 2014 20:02:28 GMT pendleton said:

These are more plausible connections. Based on the majority of the EAR crimes it also seems obvious that he chose the areas in which to offend in before he chose the victims which adds further weight to the concept that he did not know his victims before they presented themselves to him as just that. 

That is a good line of reasoning. One thing I have noticed while reading about these crappy rapists and killers, and I suppose, sadists in general, they don't want anything to do with a fair fight. They want to win, and they want you to feel responsible for your failure. 

These "crappy rapists and killers" aren't fighters. They're hunters. Predators. Let me paraphrase Michael R. King as a good example:

Many people enjoy game hunting. As the hunting season approaches the hunter starts to think about the annual trek into the wilderness to hunt his allusive game. Prior to the hunt the hunter may practice his marksmanship, purchase knew camouflage clothing and equipment, purchase hunting magazines and DVDs to brush up and refine his technique and stoke his growing thrill for the hunt. The closer to the hunt the more the hunter starts to think about his prey. The big bucks that got away. The bigger bucks he hopes to bag this year. As he fantasizes about the hunt, he becomes more and more excited. When the hunt finally begins the hunter is physically and emotionally ready to stalk his prey. 

When a game hunter bags his prey, he generally goes through an interesting ritual. He takes photos of the slain animal. The photo almost always includes the hunter in it. So he can prove his conquest to anyone who hears his story of the hunt or sees his trophy on the wall. Some hunters even remove the heads of their prey and have them stuffed and mounted on their wall as proof of their conquest and to remind them of the favourable and pleasurable experience of the hunt.

Like the hunter of big game, the the predator who rapes and murders humans goes through similar emotions. 

So you see that it is never a fair fight. It is predator and prey. You make an interesting point regarding sadism and the sadist's want for the victim to feel responsible for their failure. I don't think that's quite correct. Sadists experience intense sexual arousal from real or fantasized acts that subject another person to physical and psychological suffering. At the far end of the spectrum of criminal sexual sadists is where we find our EAR and his escalation/transformation to ONS. Here is a quote from a report by Dietz, Hazelwood and Warren in which a sadistic murderer captures the core of the disorder:

The wish to inflict pain on others is not the essence of sadism. One essential impulse: to have complete mastery over another person, to make him/her a helpless object of our will, to become the absolute ruler over her, to become her God, to do with her as one pleases. To humiliate her, to enslave her, are means to this end, and the most important radical aim is to make her suffer since there is no greater power over another person then that of inflicting pain on her to force her to undergo suffering without being able to defend herself. The pleasure in the complete domination over another person is the very essence of the Sadistic drive.

Once again there is no place in sadism for a fair fight and a true sadist would want the victim to feel/know that he, the sadist was responsible for their failure.

[slumbergirl]

The wish to inflict pain on others is not the essence of sadism. One essential impulse: to have complete mastery over another person, to make him/her a helpless object of our will, to become the absolute ruler over her, to become her God, to do with her as one pleases. To humiliate her, to enslave her, are means to this end, and the most important radical aim is to make her suffer since there is no greater power over another person then that of inflicting pain on her to force her to undergo suffering without being able to defend herself. The pleasure in the complete domination over another person is the very essence of the Sadistic drive.


No. Sadism is the wish to inflict pain on others. Period. End of story. The rest of what this inadequate loser has to say just tells me he is fighting feelings of his own insignificance.

[pendleton]

Oct 9, 2014 18:45:15 GMT slumbergirl said:

The wish to inflict pain on others is not the essence of sadism. One essential impulse: to have complete mastery over another person, to make him/her a helpless object of our will, to become the absolute ruler over her, to become her God, to do with her as one pleases. To humiliate her, to enslave her, are means to this end, and the most important radical aim is to make her suffer since there is no greater power over another person then that of inflicting pain on her to force her to undergo suffering without being able to defend herself. The pleasure in the complete domination over another person is the very essence of the Sadistic drive.


No. Sadism is the wish to inflict pain on others. Period. End of story. The rest of what this inadequate loser has to say just tells me he is fighting feelings of his own insignificance.

No, it's actually much more than that.

[slumbergirl]

Oct 9, 2014 18:57:23 GMT pendleton said:

Oct 9, 2014 18:45:15 GMT slumbergirl said:

The wish to inflict pain on others is not the essence of sadism. One essential impulse: to have complete mastery over another person, to make him/her a helpless object of our will, to become the absolute ruler over her, to become her God, to do with her as one pleases. To humiliate her, to enslave her, are means to this end, and the most important radical aim is to make her suffer since there is no greater power over another person then that of inflicting pain on her to force her to undergo suffering without being able to defend herself. The pleasure in the complete domination over another person is the very essence of the Sadistic drive.


No. Sadism is the wish to inflict pain on others. Period. End of story. The rest of what this inadequate loser has to say just tells me he is fighting feelings of his own insignificance.

No, it's actually much more than that.

At times, you seem to admire these sadistic killers.  What next?  Will you post that their victims don't really matter?  Ah, yes, you already posted that a while ago in another thread. 

[pendleton]

Oct 9, 2014 19:35:41 GMT slumbergirl said:

Oct 9, 2014 18:57:23 GMT pendleton said:

No, it's actually much more than that.

At times, you seem to admire these sadistic killers.  What next?  Will you post that their victims don't really matter?  Ah, yes, you already posted that a while ago in another thread. 

I think I know what thread you're talking about. It was a discussion regarding Russell Williams. I was talking about the way in which Williams chose his victims. When I said 'the victims didn't matter' I was trying to make a point about how nothing they did in their own lives caused them to be victims. In victimology there are high risk and low risk victims. High risk victims put themselves in dangerous situations (prostitution, drug abuse, hitch hiking etc...), low risk victims are the opposite. I also followed up that post by saying I used the wrong choice of words. You can think what you want about me but get your facts straight. Letting your emotions cloud your intelligence to the point that you decide to change well researched and established definitions to suit your outrage is pointless and makes you look foolish. I've read many of your posts and I think you're one of the more intelligent posters here. The reason why I included that quote from a sadistic murderer is for the same reason that P. E. Dietz, R. R. Hazelwood and J. Warren included in their own report. Because as much as I've learned about these disgusting individuals I am not one of them and neither are/were they. UTAP has a program where they introduce violent serial sexual offenders to LE in lecture type settings. The reason for this is that (luckily) few in LE actually have first hand experience with this type of offender. And what better way to gain that experience then to hear from the real 'experts'. I don't admire these killers but I do seek to understand them. I admit that I have an ability to not let my own emotions get involved and it's something that many people can't do. Sometimes I see it as a calling, sometimes I see it as a curse. 

[Deleted]

In other words EAR chose his victims because he was EAR not because his victims were victims.

[lepke]

Oct 9, 2014 20:22:32 GMT pendleton said:

Oct 9, 2014 19:35:41 GMT slumbergirl said:

At times, you seem to admire these sadistic killers.  What next?  Will you post that their victims don't really matter?  Ah, yes, you already posted that a while ago in another thread. 

I think I know what thread you're talking about. It was a discussion regarding Russell Williams. I was talking about the way in which Williams chose his victims. When I said 'the victims didn't matter' I was trying to make a point about how nothing they did in their own lives caused them to be victims. In victimology there are high risk and low risk victims. High risk victims put themselves in dangerous situations (prostitution, drug abuse, hitch hiking etc...), low risk victims are the opposite. I also followed up that post by saying I used the wrong choice of words. You can think what you want about me but get your facts straight. Letting your emotions cloud your intelligence to the point that you decide to change well researched and established definitions to suit your outrage is pointless and makes you look foolish. I've read many of your posts and I think you're one of the more intelligent posters here. The reason why I included that quote from a sadistic murderer is for the same reason that P. E. Dietz, R. R. Hazelwood and J. Warren included in their own report. Because as much as I've learned about these disgusting individuals I am not one of them and neither are/were they. UTAP has a program where they introduce violent serial sexual offenders to LE in lecture type settings. The reason for this is that (luckily) few in LE actually have first hand experience with this type of offender. And what better way to gain that experience then to hear from the real 'experts'. I don't admire these killers but I do seek to understand them. I admit that I have an ability to not let my own emotions get involved and it's something that many people can't do. Sometimes I see it as a calling, sometimes I see it as a curse. 

Many are called, but few are chosen.

[albion]

Oct 8, 2014 23:25:23 GMT portofleith said:

Oct 8, 2014 21:30:08 GMT albion said:

That is a good line of reasoning. One thing I have noticed while reading about these crappy rapists and killers, and I suppose, sadists in general, they don't want anything to do with a fair fight. They want to win, and they want you to feel responsible for your failure. It seems implausible for gsk to have gone into these homes randomly without some good idea of what to expect and some kind of exit strategy. It would seem he did do that since he carried a gun or knife. But in RC I would have expected some of the military people might have had a gun on their person when he was sneaking around doing all the recognizance that he must have done in order to have the upper hand time after time. It seems implausible that a sadist of such grand proportions would put himself in jeopardy so often. Unless he had some kind of wildcard. Like a get of jail free card. I don't think I have read anything which could possibly support the idea that gsk was prone to giving people a fair chance at escape. Didn't he sometimes give people the illusion that they could escape? But realistically the gun was always being pointed at the victims. The knives were always being pointed at the victims. The clues never lead to him. And the Sheriffs were always just a little bit late.

Port do you know how many LE badge wearing victims there were in the EAR crimes? Or even the VR crimes? Just curious. Statistically it would seem implausible to not have any LE victims wouldn't it?

Albion,  I am not aware of any law enforcement personnel who became EAR or ONS victims.  There are newspaper articles that imply that EAR changed the location of his next attack after an article appeared in the paper about the dentist who organized the CB patrol.  The next rape was located near the dentist's office.  There were victims who were high ranking military, including captains, majors and colonels.

EAR did fairly extensive homework in his prowling.  For example, another thread has discussed the case of victim #28.  Every day for two weeks prior to the attack on her and her husband, she would receive a hang  up call at precisely 12:10, when she returned home from a real estate class.  Ear had to have observed her schedule to make a determination that she would be home at precisely that time. 

Port does lack of any LE personnel that were victims seem significant to you? When I consider Sandia's argument about framing or misleading police towards known poi's, and the idea that ear was able to evade the task force so well, and LE's own opinion that ear was well aware of LE methods, it seems the lack of LE victims would be a sign of something. If he was really thumbing his nose at LE then why only military victims? Wouldn't a LE victim have really struck a nerve?  Why was he afraid of LE in this regard?

Do you have any general knowledge of the attack that was determined to be a copycat?

And, yes, the articles on the red baron rapes in AZ have always interested me. As well as the rape of the Woodbridge woman. I don't believe her case was ever solved and that in any way was she satisfied with the service she received from IPD. I believe she may have tried to sue afterwards.

[portofleith]

Oct 10, 2014 21:13:42 GMT albion said:

Oct 8, 2014 23:25:23 GMT portofleith said:

Albion,  I am not aware of any law enforcement personnel who became EAR or ONS victims.  There are newspaper articles that imply that EAR changed the location of his next attack after an article appeared in the paper about the dentist who organized the CB patrol.  The next rape was located near the dentist's office.  There were victims who were high ranking military, including captains, majors and colonels.

EAR did fairly extensive homework in his prowling.  For example, another thread has discussed the case of victim #28.  Every day for two weeks prior to the attack on her and her husband, she would receive a hang  up call at precisely 12:10, when she returned home from a real estate class.  Ear had to have observed her schedule to make a determination that she would be home at precisely that time. 

Port does lack of any LE personnel that were victims seem significant to you? When I consider Sandia's argument about framing or misleading police towards known poi's, and the idea that ear was able to evade the task force so well, and LE's own opinion that ear was well aware of LE methods, it seems the lack of LE victims would be a sign of something. If he was really thumbing his nose at LE then why only military victims? Wouldn't a LE victim have really struck a nerve?  Why was he afraid of LE in this regard?

Do you have any general knowledge of the attack that was determined to be a copycat?

And, yes, the articles on the red baron rapes in AZ have always interested me. As well as the rape of the Woodbridge woman. I don't believe her case was ever solved and that in any way was she satisfied with the service she received from IPD. I believe she may have tried to sue afterwards.

Albion- I have always found it interesting that a police radio was stolen in Visalia from a robbery surveillance van during the ransackings, that the CB activity in Sacramento was probably jamming the waves with patrol action for all to hear and that Witthuhn had a ham radio tuned to police frequency.  I even found a book excerpt about the police youth cadets that traveled with the police in their patrol cars during this time period.  

I have looked at policeman including one arrested for being an obscene phone caller in Modesto, one arrested in Bakersfield on drug charges, one in Sacramento for a variety of charges including child porn and robbery-  I have a file devoted to rogue cops I have researched.  None fit though.  

If EAR had ever trained in the military police or regular law enforcement, he would have known that LE would react differently to a home invasion prowler than a civilian.  I believe the statistical blip that no middle class neighborhood attack contained LE is not a blip at all.  I think it was part of EAR's meticulous research and survey of a neighborhood and was deliberate avoidance.

Kelly could very likely have  murdered either one of his bludgeon victims and I believe today he is a parolee.  The Red Robin could have been EAR's twin brother except for the timing and the fact a brave young lady did not hesitate to shoot him in his last attempt.


I am looking forward to reading about some of Detective Shelby's top POI's as several news articles and pieces have indicated that Sac did think they could be looking at someone with LE or military background.

[Relentless]

Has anyone received their book yet? And any details.

[Relentless]

Oct 11, 2014 21:47:39 GMT terri said:

Oct 11, 2014 19:30:21 GMT Relentless said:

Has anyone received their book yet? And any details.

I got mine today. I won't be reading it for a week or so. Flipping though it I see that there are a few black and white photos- one of the 'mad is the word' letter, a drawing of a diamond-shaped decal seen on an El Camino that was parked near Sandbar Circle. It's a decal of a parachute carrying a missel with the letters AFC under it. If that photo isn't known to any of you I can scan the image. The hand drawn neighborhood believed to be EAR's, the 'punishment' paper, the General Custer paper, a composite of EAR from 1979, the one with the dark ski mask, a few other known composite sketches of EAR, and one of the VR, and a photo of Det. Shelby and Sgt. Bakarich with an assault suspect standing beside the car. The suspect has a jacket over his head. He looks tall.

Thanks Terry for the feedback. 

[Relentless]

Sorry, I meant "Thanks Terri for the feedback".