Why didn't the police catch him in the chase?

[artemisia1]

Oct 5, 2014 3:49:04 GMT @sacfisherking said:

Oct 5, 2014 3:36:45 GMT artemisia1 said:

Closing the roads -- which they did do at times -- wouldn't be a magic bullet. Remember, he was often on foot or on a bike and his car was almost certainly parked near a main artery or even freeway. Close off every block in a square mile radius and he still could have hopped fences, made a dash across each street and, unless there were officers every 20-30 yards -- all with the ability to keep up with him -- he could still get away.

Also, you couldn't just shoot a young man running at night. How could one be certain it was EAR? Okay, if he's got his ski mask on or flashes a weapon, but otherwise? 

I believe the OP is referring to the chase when LE pursued a guy on a bike with a ski mask on. This happened on Watt Ave I believe. The suspect was on the bike path portion over the Watt bridge. I live off Watt.....he should have been a dead duck. Literally if needed. If only one guy is chasing even if he is fastest, strongest, and toughest then this a screw up. Radios, cars/motorcycles, and bullets should have come into play here me thinks. Fail.

Oh, and I'd add that, by that point, it was clear he was somebody who needed shooting...

Also, there is open ground there, but much of it is level, or gently sloping grassland (kept up by Cal Trans, iirc) and a motorcyclist could follow that ground (and EAR) with no problem. EAR also would have been trapped by the river behind him and, while there are houses there, there is too much open area for EAR to have taken any advantage of the tactics I mentioned upthread. He really would have been a sitting duck on that stretch.

[slowpokebread]

Oct 5, 2014 4:04:20 GMT artemisia1 said:

Oct 5, 2014 3:58:07 GMT slowpokebread said:

A Serial Rapist is bad enough.

Still, in 1970-80, 50 home invasion rapes, 10+ murders in certain areas but still on the loose, big fail.

These were in ALL the cities he hit throughout the state over a ten year period. Many of these attacks were literally hundreds of miles from one another (and years apart). There were times, like the Watt Ave chase, where he could have and should have been run down, imo, but you are giving the impression, I think, that he hit 50 in one jurisdiction over the course of two years. He didn't.

It's not an excuse. Most of the Serial Killers don't do something like home invasion, had much fewer victims and pick low class to kill but they still got caught. Why couldn't the CA police catch him after 50+ crimes, 10+ murders and a few mistakes he made? Not to mention they got his DNA.

[Deleted]

Why didn't they catch him?

Couldn't run fast enough. Weren't smart enough.

[artemisia1]

Oct 5, 2014 4:48:35 GMT f1guyus said:

Why didn't they catch him?

Couldn't run fast enough. Weren't smart enough.

Hard to disagree with that.

Also, I'd like to add that I think both EAR's intelligence and skill level are overestimated by many. He was a POS punk who hit randomly enough, had some decent tactics, crossed jurisdictions, was the recipient of tremendous luck, police infighting and many, many missed opportunities...

That said; I think Slowpokebread makes it sound too easy. Less than half of serial rapists/killers are apprehended.

[Drifter]

Speaking mostly in jest here ...

In varying attacks, maybe he ...
1. hid high up in the trees, or
2. hid on rooftops till the coast was clear, or
3. ran to spot where he had previously discarded his cop uniform; redressed as a cop, then back around to join the cops who were looking for him ...

But, seriously, the original poster's question is legit. And so too are poster responses to that original post.

Good discussion.

Drifter

[slowpokebread]

Oct 5, 2014 4:49:27 GMT artemisia1 said:

Oct 5, 2014 4:48:35 GMT f1guyus said:

Why didn't they catch him?

Couldn't run fast enough. Weren't smart enough.

Hard to disagree with that.

Also, I'd like to add that I think both EAR's intelligence and skill level is overestimated by many. He was a POS punk who hit randomly enough, had some decent tactics, crossed jurisdiction, was the recipient of tremendous luck, police infighting and many, many missed opportunities...

Agree, he made quite a few mistakes, which is sad.

[artemisia1]

Oct 5, 2014 4:53:41 GMT Drifter said:

Speaking mostly in jest here ...

In varying attacks, maybe he ...
1. hid high up in the trees, or
2. hid on rooftops till the coast was clear, or
3. ran to spot where he had previously discarded his cop uniform; redressed as a cop, then back around to join the cops who were looking for him ...

But, seriously, the original poster's question is legit. And so too are poster responses to that original post.

Good discussion.

Drifter

I'd never thought of the dressing as a cop part. Wonder if he ever did this? I understand the "mostly in jest part", but it is something to entertain, if only briefly.

As to the rooftops, does anyone know what the state of the art of thermal imaging was in the 1970's? They can find people hiding under cars now via infared, I believe. If they had this in the 70's (as a mature enough technology to deploy effectively) than he should have been a dead duck (at the Watt Ave chase, at least, if not elsewhere).

[ontarian812]

Oct 5, 2014 3:36:45 GMT artemisia1 said:

Oct 4, 2014 19:35:47 GMT slowpokebread said:

It's not about footchase, they could have called their men to close the road and come from all paths to block his way, not to say shoot him if he was about to get away.

Closing the roads -- which they did do at times -- wouldn't be a magic bullet. Remember, he was often on foot or on a bike and his car was almost certainly parked near a main artery or even freeway. Close off every block in a square mile radius and he still could have hopped fences, made a dash across each street and, unless there were officers every 20-30 yards -- all with the ability to keep up with him -- he could still get away.

Oh, and while hopping yards, he could have taken (and did) advantage of the fact that, in the 1970's, bicycles were king and many backyards had kids bikes on the patio, often unlocked  since they were in the backyard. Ear hops a fence, grabs one of these, tosses it over the fence, than crosses a potholed field or nature area corridor (some brush, uneven terrain, but enough of a trail for a strong, off-road  experienced young man on a bike to follow on it) -- in terrain a police cruiser could not follow easily, and off he was. Repeat.

Also, you couldn't just shoot a young man running at night. How could one be certain it was EAR? Okay, if he's got his ski mask on or flashes a weapon, but otherwise? 

Also the fact that EAR had a vast resource of forestry and fields to survey and map out prior to his attack. His likley military experience would have given him the athletic skills, fitness and organisation to outrun any cop(especially in a more rural California).

Law Enforcement could have caught him if they utilized a helicopter during the chase or other types of air patrol to survey the forests.

[artemisia1]

Oct 5, 2014 5:20:26 GMT ontarian812 said:

Oct 5, 2014 3:36:45 GMT artemisia1 said:

Closing the roads -- which they did do at times -- wouldn't be a magic bullet. Remember, he was often on foot or on a bike and his car was almost certainly parked near a main artery or even freeway. Close off every block in a square mile radius and he still could have hopped fences, made a dash across each street and, unless there were officers every 20-30 yards -- all with the ability to keep up with him -- he could still get away.

Oh, and while hopping yards, he could have taken (and did) advantage of the fact that, in the 1970's, bicycles were king and many backyards had kids bikes on the patio, often unlocked  since they were in the backyard. Ear hops a fence, grabs one of these, tosses it over the fence, than crosses a potholed field or nature area corridor (some brush, uneven terrain, but enough of a trail for a strong, off-road  experienced young man on a bike to follow on it) -- in terrain a police cruiser could not follow easily, and off he was. Repeat.

Also, you couldn't just shoot a young man running at night. How could one be certain it was EAR? Okay, if he's got his ski mask on or flashes a weapon, but otherwise? 

Also the fact that EAR had a vast resource of forestry and fields to survey and map out prior to his attack. His likley military experience would have given him the athletic skills, fitness and organisation to outrun any cop(especially in a more rural California).

Law Enforcement could have caught him if they utilized a helicopter during the chase or other types of air patrol to survey the forests.

Sacfisherking made an excellent point about motorcycles. Well trained MC cops could have run him down in many of these areas -- with a well-coordinated dragnet of cruisers, helicopters, cops on foot, dogs, etc.

It is understandable, given the time, the areas he hit, his casing of attack sites, etc., that he could have evaded capture many times but all the time? As folks have pointed out in this thread -- there were definite missed opportunities. I had forgotten about the Watt Ave chase. That one's a gold-plated example because he had few to none of the advantages I've listed elsewhere many times. He was at a disadvantage on a bike there and he had his freakin' ski mask on, so he wasn't a kid on his way home from a night job!

Even if we may pick at some of the details, I think most of us are agreed that chances were missed. Combine that with jurisdictions that refused (at least at first) to admit EAR was offending in their area -- when they should have been setting up dragnets and massive surveillance -- and you have a perfect storm that allowed this creep -- who I doubt (unlike some) had the perseverance to have completed serious training in the Armed Forces -- to continue to offend.

[ontarian812]

Oct 5, 2014 5:30:16 GMT artemisia1 said:

Oct 5, 2014 5:20:26 GMT ontarian812 said:

Also the fact that EAR had a vast resource of forestry and fields to survey and map out prior to his attack. His likley military experience would have given him the athletic skills, fitness and organisation to outrun any cop(especially in a more rural California).

Law Enforcement could have caught him if they utilized a helicopter during the chase or other types of air patrol to survey the forests.

Sacfisherking made an excellent point about motorcycles. Well trained MC cops could have run him down in many of these areas -- with a well-coordinated dragnet of cruisers, helicopters, cops on foot, dogs, etc.

It is understandable, given the time, the areas he hit, his casing of attack sites, etc., that he could have evaded capture many times but all the time? As folks have pointed out in this thread -- there were definite missed opportunities. I had forgotten about the Watt Ave chase. That one's a gold-plated example because he had few to none of the advantages I've listed elsewhere many times. He was at a disadvantage on a bike there and he had his freakin' ski mask on, so he wasn't a kid on his way home from a night job!

Even if we may pick at some of the details, I think most of us are agreed that chances were missed.

He should have been caught during the Watt Ave chase, the FBI agent chasing alone should have had enough marksman skill to shot him(in the leg of course.).

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2014 5:20:26 GMT ontarian812 said:

Oct 5, 2014 3:36:45 GMT artemisia1 said:

Closing the roads -- which they did do at times -- wouldn't be a magic bullet. Remember, he was often on foot or on a bike and his car was almost certainly parked near a main artery or even freeway. Close off every block in a square mile radius and he still could have hopped fences, made a dash across each street and, unless there were officers every 20-30 yards -- all with the ability to keep up with him -- he could still get away.

Oh, and while hopping yards, he could have taken (and did) advantage of the fact that, in the 1970's, bicycles were king and many backyards had kids bikes on the patio, often unlocked  since they were in the backyard. Ear hops a fence, grabs one of these, tosses it over the fence, than crosses a potholed field or nature area corridor (some brush, uneven terrain, but enough of a trail for a strong, off-road  experienced young man on a bike to follow on it) -- in terrain a police cruiser could not follow easily, and off he was. Repeat.

Also, you couldn't just shoot a young man running at night. How could one be certain it was EAR? Okay, if he's got his ski mask on or flashes a weapon, but otherwise? 

Also the fact that EAR had a vast resource of forestry and fields to survey and map out prior to his attack. His likley military experience would have given him the athletic skills, fitness and organisation to outrun any cop(especially in a more rural California).

Law Enforcement could have caught him if they utilized a helicopter during the chase or other types of air patrol to survey the forests.

They did. Helicopter patrols were used.

[ontarian812]

Oct 5, 2014 5:54:48 GMT @sacfisherking said:

Oct 5, 2014 5:20:26 GMT ontarian812 said:

Also the fact that EAR had a vast resource of forestry and fields to survey and map out prior to his attack. His likley military experience would have given him the athletic skills, fitness and organisation to outrun any cop(especially in a more rural California).

Law Enforcement could have caught him if they utilized a helicopter during the chase or other types of air patrol to survey the forests.

They did. Helicopter patrols were used.

Clearly not in the correct way, the most likley had no true specialists in the field of police aviation like they do today.   The police should have caught the EAR.

[dbw]

I think catching a very athletic, very crafty, fugitive on foot, over possibly rough terrains (along the American River), possibly over fences and through back yards, who has planned his getaway routes, probably had a vehicle parked nearby, may have determined hiding places nearby, could have had a change of clothes stashed, is a bit more difficult that typing "they should have caught him" on a keyboard.

This isn't TV where the bad guys always get caught in time for the commercial break with all the resources and special effects the producers can afford and according to a tightly written script.

Why did he get away? Darn if I know. Did LE maker mistakes? I dunno. I wasn't there. I'm betting most of us weren't there and don't know.

[artemisia1]

Oct 5, 2014 6:10:04 GMT dbw said:

I think catching a very athletic, very crafty, fugitive on foot, over possibly rough terrains (along the American River), possibly over fences and through back yards, who has planned his getaway routes, probably had a vehicle parked nearby, may have determined hiding places nearby, could have had a change of clothes stashed, is a bit more difficult that typing "they should have caught him" on a keyboard.

This isn't TV where the bad guys always get caught in time for the commercial break with all the resources and special effects the producers can afford and according to a tightly written script.

Why did he get away? Darn if I know. Did LE maker mistakes? I dunno. I wasn't there. I'm betting most of us weren't there and don't know.

I agree -- not easy to do. I also think there were missed opportunities. It's a mixed bag for me -- I've argued so many times that catching a predator such as EAR is so much more difficult than many believe, while at the same time recognizing (as even some who were Sac LE of the time period themselves have said) that it wasn't all luck and craftiness on EAR's part -- there was also police infighting and missed opportunities. That's why I find it impossible to hold either an overall pro or anti-LE view on this case. On one hand, I don't find them "untouchable" because I "wasn't there and am second guessing them" and at the same time, I recognize so many had immense dedication to the task and would have put their own lives at grave risk willingly to have apprehended this turd.

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2014 6:08:18 GMT ontarian812 said:

Oct 5, 2014 5:54:48 GMT @sacfisherking said:

They did. Helicopter patrols were used.

Clearly not in the correct way, the most likley had no true specialists in the field of police aviation like they do today.   The police should have caught the EAR.

You're preaching to the choir brother. Did you read my post prior? They did have choppers though. Shining lights in hot sectors. Just trying to be fair.