Revisiting the Offerman/Manning murders .....

[portofleith]

Feb 28, 2015 9:25:26 GMT zforce said:

Feb 28, 2015 7:59:48 GMT @privatecitizen said:

This is from a post Sandia did on page 6 of this thread. I think she did a more complete breakdown of the burglaries that night in another post, but this is the one I've found so far. No mentions of him having a dog with him during the burglaries. I think I posted a map somewhere on the board of the route he took according to Stan Los after the HH attack.

If even half the things mentioned here are true I think I can reasonably say ONS has a connection to the neighborhood. It's that connection which brings him back 18 months later for D/S.

Was the dog ever inside at O/M? I known that paw prints and scraps fed to the dog were found outside the home, but I haven't read where the hair was located.

There is no evidence that a dog was ever inside at the Offerman condo. The paw prints and food were found on the patio.

This is the burglary timeline:

8:00 p.m.   home on Parejo Dr. - owner returned home to find home burglarized
8:05 p.m.   home on Hanna Dr. burglarized
9:38 p.m.   home on Queen Anne- owner returns home to find home burglarized- gone from 5:30 p.m.-9:30 p.m.
                  Neighbor saw individual on porch of this home at 6:30 p.m. and 7:00 p.m.
10:15 p.m. Harvard Lane home burglarized
10:21 p.m. Windsor Court- owners pull into driveway- see silhouette of man kicking their dog in living room.  
                   House burglarized-
                   suspect jumps fence and disappears into Mountain View Elementary
12:00 a.m. neighbor hears Offerman and a man and woman talking in parking area
3:05 a.m.   gunshots heard by condo neighbors
5:30 a.m.   paperboy and his mother see a white vehicle exiting the condo area- car had poor paint job

Zforce-  I agree with you that he knew this neighborhood.  It is not a particularly easy neighborhood to find from the 101 and is not visible from the freeway.  

Note that the evening burglaries seemed to begin on  Parejo, near Toltec.  Parejo is the same street as the Taylor murder.  Or did they start earlier that evening on Queen Anne?  I suspect that ONS was up and down the creek bed several times that night.

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2015 9:25:26 GMT zforce said:

Feb 28, 2015 7:59:48 GMT @privatecitizen said:

I think he definitely knew the neighborhood and had been a prowler there before. He had already been there prowling before HH at the least. Maybe as far back as Eva Taylor. I think some of the LE info (articles?) described it as prowlings that would happen and then stop for months before happening again.

[Drifter]

From Port's timeline above ...

5:30 a.m. paperboy and his mother see a white vehicle exiting the condo area- car had poor paint job

This is what I was referring to. I do recall that someone mentioned that the car had its lights off.

But since the time was a good two hours after the murder, this car may have nothing to do with ONS leaving the area.

Still not totally clear, but am leaning to the idea that ONS exited the O/M scene via bike.

D.

[zforce]

Feb 28, 2015 13:13:54 GMT @privatecitizen said:

Feb 28, 2015 9:25:26 GMT zforce said:

I think he definitely knew the neighborhood and had been a prowler there before. He had already been there prowling before HH at the least. Maybe as far back as Eva Taylor. I think some of the LE info (articles?) described it as prowlings that would happen and then stop for months before happening again.

The only theories I see being plausible as to why he's in this neighborhood are work and/or family. My feeling if his presense is work related that he would still likely be living in the neighborhood where he's active. The burglaries aside, his escalated activity is all grouped in that same neighborhood even when he's gone for 18 months and returns.

TheBadge on the old board had a theory about ONS being a janitor that I wasn't very big on. If it were a graveyard shift position it could afford someone a lot of down time. I noticed Mountain View Elementary School is very near where he ditched the bike after O/M which is what made me think of that theory. Of course, new schools go up all the time and it may not have even been there in 1979.

[woofytreats]

Mar 2, 2015 5:13:42 GMT Drifter said:

From Port's timeline above ...

5:30 a.m. paperboy and his mother see a white vehicle exiting the condo area- car had poor paint job

This is what I was referring to. I do recall that someone mentioned that the car had its lights off.

But since the time was a good two hours after the murder, this car may have nothing to do with ONS leaving the area.

Still not totally clear, but am leaning to the idea that ONS exited the O/M scene via bike.

D.

 Drifter,

My understanding ( anyone please correct me ) is that a white, boxy car ( similar to Pinto or Honda per Shelby's book ) was seen leaving the parking lot from O/M at 3:17 AM with its lights off. The neighbors across the way heard the gunshots at 3:05 and went upstairs to get a better vantage point out the window. The couple could see Dr. Offerman's sliding door open with the screen closed and noted the car leaving at 3:17 AM.  Being that there was a bike theft ( and usage ) that night near O/Ms condo and a suspicious car with it's lights off seen leaving after the murders, I can see this getting jumbled up.

[zforce]

Dec 8, 2014 17:55:19 GMT magnumforce73 said:

"Or did he see Manning entering the party on Toltec the night before?"

Since learning of it in ST, I've long had the feeling ONS learned of Dr. Manning at the Toltec Dinner Party the previous night.  Lots of funky activity going on in that neighborhood over those forty-eight hours.  Thank you for the refresher, Port.

mf73

I'm wondering how big the party was. Could he have been there or possibly acquainted with one or more of the guests?

[Drifter]

Mar 2, 2015 16:58:02 GMT woofytreats said:

Mar 2, 2015 5:13:42 GMT Drifter said:

From Port's timeline above ...
This is what I was referring to. I do recall that someone mentioned that the car had its lights off.

But since the time was a good two hours after the murder, this car may have nothing to do with ONS leaving the area.

Still not totally clear, but am leaning to the idea that ONS exited the O/M scene via bike.

D.

 Drifter,

My understanding ( anyone please correct me ) is that a white, boxy car ( similar to Pinto or Honda per Shelby's book ) was seen leaving the parking lot from O/M at 3:17 AM with its lights off. The neighbors across the way heard the gunshots at 3:05 and went upstairs to get a better vantage point out the window. The couple could see Dr. Offerman's sliding door open with the screen closed and noted the car leaving at 3:17 AM.  Being that there was a bike theft ( and usage ) that night near O/Ms condo and a suspicious car with it's lights off seen leaving after the murders, I can see this getting jumbled up.

Oh my!

My question the last couple of pages of this thread has always been ...  how did ONS exit the O/M murder scene. 

Could someone please quote or paraphrase Shelby as to woofytreat's comment.

Thanks.

D.

[zforce]

Mar 2, 2015 16:58:02 GMT woofytreats said:

Mar 2, 2015 5:13:42 GMT Drifter said:

From Port's timeline above ...
This is what I was referring to. I do recall that someone mentioned that the car had its lights off.

But since the time was a good two hours after the murder, this car may have nothing to do with ONS leaving the area.

Still not totally clear, but am leaning to the idea that ONS exited the O/M scene via bike.

D.

 Drifter,

My understanding ( anyone please correct me ) is that a white, boxy car ( similar to Pinto or Honda per Shelby's book ) was seen leaving the parking lot from O/M at 3:17 AM with its lights off. The neighbors across the way heard the gunshots at 3:05 and went upstairs to get a better vantage point out the window. The couple could see Dr. Offerman's sliding door open with the screen closed and noted the car leaving at 3:17 AM.  Being that there was a bike theft ( and usage ) that night near O/Ms condo and a suspicious car with it's lights off seen leaving after the murders, I can see this getting jumbled up.

Did the witnesses see which way the car went on Avenida Pequena when it left?

I suppose it's possible the bike could have been stolen earlier in the evening, with O/M being stalked around this time. He uses the bike in commission of the burglaries then ditches it to use his car, which is possibly at a residence near where he leaves it. He returns to the scene and engages O/M for some reason outside the residence at 12am. He may or may not have brought a dog with him, but I find it weird that he would leave his dog outside unless he were worried that it would leave evidence inside the house that could be tied back to him, and if he were a transient to the neighborhood this would be an unlikely worry. So prior to killing O/M he eats and feeds the dog in the backyard of the residence, and for whatever reason O/M are complacent during all of that yet O attempts an escape when he returns and is shot.....or M is shot first and O realizes he's next and attempts to fight back. Either way, he spends some there so is it possible that he arrives at midnight and is somehow known to O/M well enough to willingly be allowed in at that time....or does he surprise O and force him inside at this time....or does he simply conversate with them at this time and return yet again even later?

My assumption here is that the midnight convo is somehow related being that the male voice that was heard was never put to a person who came forward after the murders.

[woofytreats]

I basically paraphrased the section in Shelby's book concerning the couple who witnessed the car leaving the scene of O/M at 3:17AM.

Here's the quoted section:

"Another few minutes passed before they looked out a different window and saw a white, boxy car, without lights, slowly driving out of the common parking lot. They thought it was similar in size to a Pinto or Honda. Thinking the time might be important, the couple checked the clock and saw it was exactly 3:17AM."

There's no detail mentioned as to which way the car exited the parking lot.

I also think the overheard conversation around midnight with Dr. Offerman's return is interesting. The neighbor recognized Offerman's voice but not the others with one apparently being female and not Dr. Manning. No neighbors come forward. Rightly or wrongly, I start to think about the young woman seen in the early evening knocking on the door of one of the burgled homes...followed by a male matching the EAR description. Are they connected and would EAR/ONS engage Dr. Offerman in the parking lot this way prior to the murders?? I don't know....you'd think it would be pretty fortuitous if EAR/ONS ran into the doctor at midnight in one of his passes of the area versus waiting or watching for him. If this was EAR/ONS, was there a reason to engage Offerman in what might have been just a feigned, casual conversation?? Was Dr. Manning not with him and inside the condo prior to Dr. Offerman's return? The probability scale goes even higher with the car leaving the parking lot with its lights out after the murder.

[Drifter]

Interesting comments, woofytreats.

It would seem then that we have two cars leaving the area at an unusual time. The one Shelby mentions that leaves at 3:17 a.m. The other leaving around 5:30 a.m. that Port mentions.

Why doesn't Port's timeline (posted above) include the car at 3:17? Why doesn't Shelby mention the car leaving at 5:30?

Then we have the possibility that the guy left on a bicycle, rendering both cars irrelevant.

Maybe all three possibilities are irrelevant, and the guy left on foot.

Is there no clear, definitive statement of how the ONS left the O/M murder scene?

I don't know what to make of Offerman's midnight conversation.

D.

[zforce]

Mar 3, 2015 17:23:40 GMT woofytreats said:

I basically paraphrased the section in Shelby's book concerning the couple who witnessed the car leaving the scene of O/M at 3:17AM.

Here's the quoted section:

"Another few minutes passed before they looked out a different window and saw a white, boxy car, without lights, slowly driving out of the common parking lot. They thought it was similar in size to a Pinto or Honda. Thinking the time might be important, the couple checked the clock and saw it was exactly 3:17AM."

There's no detail mentioned as to which way the car exited the parking lot.

I also think the overheard conversation around midnight with Dr. Offerman's return is interesting. The neighbor recognized Offerman's voice but not the others with one apparently being female and not Dr. Manning. No neighbors come forward. Rightly or wrongly, I start to think about the young woman seen in the early evening knocking on the door of one of the burgled homes...followed by a male matching the EAR description. Are they connected and would EAR/ONS engage Dr. Offerman in the parking lot this way prior to the murders?? I don't know....you'd think it would be pretty fortuitous if EAR/ONS ran into the doctor at midnight in one of his passes of the area versus waiting or watching for him. If this was EAR/ONS, was there a reason to engage Offerman in what might have been just a feigned, casual conversation?? Was Dr. Manning not with him and inside the condo prior to Dr. Offerman's return? The probability scale goes even higher with the car leaving the parking lot with its lights out after the murder.

Okay is it possible that the neighbor recognized Offerman's voice, but didn't recognize Manning's voice because he didn't necessarily know her. Basically, I'm wondering if the neighbor would only know Offerman and other neighbor's voices and that is the comparison he's making.

Is no context given to the overheard conversation? (Ie casual, friendly, suspicious)

Maybe he catches ONS prowling upon returning to the condo and ONS makes a disarming excuse and leaves, or one of the other scenarios I mentioned above occurs then?

I'm betting LE has a good idea of how things went down, and we would too if we had access to the police reports. But we have to go off writers and leaked info which kind of puts us all at a disadvantage.

Either way, if both the stolen bike and car incident occur I'm inclined to believe they are both somehow related to ONS. Putting the dog into the story becomes a little harder to reconcile.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Feb 28, 2015 10:48:38 GMT portofleith said:

Feb 28, 2015 9:25:26 GMT zforce said:

If even half the things mentioned here are true I think I can reasonably say ONS has a connection to the neighborhood. It's that connection which brings him back 18 months later for D/S.

Was the dog ever inside at O/M? I known that paw prints and scraps fed to the dog were found outside the home, but I haven't read where the hair was located.

There is no evidence that a dog was ever inside at the Offerman condo. The paw prints and food were found on the patio.

This is the burglary timeline:

8:00 p.m.   home on Parejo Dr. - owner returned home to find home burglarized
8:05 p.m.   home on Hanna Dr. burglarized
9:38 p.m.   home on Queen Anne- owner returns home to find home burglarized- gone from 5:30 p.m.-9:30 p.m.
                  Neighbor saw individual on porch of this home at 6:30 p.m. and 7:00 p.m.
10:15 p.m. Harvard Lane home burglarized
10:21 p.m. Windsor Court- owners pull into driveway- see silhouette of man kicking their dog in living room.  
                   House burglarized-
                   suspect jumps fence and disappears into Mountain View Elementary
12:00 a.m. neighbor hears Offerman and a man and woman talking in parking area
3:05 a.m.   gunshots heard by condo neighbors
5:30 a.m.   paperboy and his mother see a white vehicle exiting the condo area- car had poor paint job

Zforce-  I agree with you that he knew this neighborhood.  It is not a particularly easy neighborhood to find from the 101 and is not visible from the freeway.  

Note that the evening burglaries seemed to begin on  Parejo, near Toltec.  Parejo is the same street as the Taylor murder.  Or did they start earlier that evening on Queen Anne?  I suspect that ONS was up and down the creek bed several times that night.

According to the time line I have, the burglaries did start at 8:00 p.m. on Parejo but there were a few incidents on Queen Ann earlier. 

6:10 p.m. a teenage girl that lives next door to the burglary victim on Queen Ann sees a female on the porch of the burglary victim.

7:00 P.M.  the same girl sees an unidentified white male appearing to ring the doorbell of the same next door burglary victim.

7:30 p.m. the same girl exited her home to see what appeared to be the same person ringing the doorbell of the burglary victim.

8:00 p.m. burglary on Parejo

8:05 p.m. burglary on Hanna Drive

6:00 p.m. to 10:15 pm (estimated time of burglary 9:00 p.m.) home on Harvard Lane near Hanna is burglarized

(You probably are right about being up and down the creek, however at it appears he was for part of the time at least using a bicycle. 

1:00 a.m. A bicycle was stolen from Offerman's neighbor on Ave. Pequena and found at 936 Crown which is  north of Queen Ann.) 

One thing that stands out to me is that female knocking on the door.  Is this a pure coincidence that she knocked on that door or was "she" the EAR/ONS.  It is believed he wore disguises and wigs.  At 7 p.m. in December it should be completely dark, could she have seen someone in a wig and just assumed it was a female?  It would be nice if I had a description to see what clothing she wore.  It was probably cold out at that time of night in December so if she/he was wearing a coat or jacket that would disguise the body shape.  If the EAR/ONS went to that house three times, perhaps he would have put a wig on so to fool anyone taking note of that.

[woofytreats]

Z,

I can only restate what I read regarding the midnight conversation and I would agree that you might be able to put more detail to the bone if there was access to the police reports, etc. My interpretation was that the neighbor overhearing the conversation knew Dr. Manning's voice and they didn't think it was her voice although apparently female. No doubt there are things that are known involving the period prior to midnight and the murders that aren't known or discussed here. Maybe the midnight conversation was about the dog?? If there are instances that draw strangers together, many involve their dogs and people talking to the dogs in high pitched voices that might be potentially misconstrued as female if not heard near field. How's that for a stretch? Probably good as any without the facts...

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Mar 4, 2015 16:30:01 GMT woofytreats said:

Z,

I can only restate what I read regarding the midnight conversation and I would agree that you might be able to put more detail to the bone if there was access to the police reports, etc. My interpretation was that the neighbor overhearing the conversation knew Dr. Manning's voice and they didn't think it was her voice although apparently female. No doubt there are things that are known involving the period prior to midnight and the murders that aren't known or discussed here. Maybe the midnight conversation was about the dog?? If there are instances that draw strangers together, many involve their dogs and people talking to the dogs in high pitched voices that might be potentially misconstrued as female if not heard near field. How's that for a stretch? Probably good as any without the facts...

Hello all, to weigh in a bit, Drs. Offerman and Manning were in their condo with a visiting couple. That couple left at 6:45 p.m. Dr. Offerman left to deliver a ski boot tree to his son between 10:30 and 11 p.m.

My question: Did Alexandria accompany him on the errand?  I'm sure LE knows that information but it is not mentioned in the information I have.

Thought #1  She did not live with him.  He was actually dating another woman besides Manning, would she have felt comfortable staying behind in the condo? What if the fast errand turned into a longer visit, perhaps she would want to go with him. 

Thought #2 Is it more likely Manning did not accompany him on his errand?  It is stated that Offerman delivered the ski boot tree to his son at "his wife's" residence.  I assume he is talking about his own wife.  It was late so Offerman probably thought it would be a fast errand.  Would Manning show up at his wife's home even if she stayed in the car?   Maybe it was supposed to be a quick errand.

However, it was "midnight"  when his Porsche was heard driving into the parking lot and the 3 voices were heard.  So the trip took about 1 to 1 1/2 hours.

The female voice not being recognized is understandable even if the voice was Mannings.  She didn't live there. 

So was that female voice Manning's, or remembering that a female was spotted on the porch of one of the burglary victims on Queen Ann, could it have been a female accomplice.  I think it is more likely the female on Queen Ann was pure coincidence or was the EAR/ONS was wearing a wig.  I think it is more likely the female voice was Manning.  So who were they talking to at midnight? 

I am thinking of one possible scenario:  Had they surprised EAR/ONS who was in the process of lurking around, perhaps they surprised him trying to unsuccessfully pry open the condo next door (the condo had pry marks on the frame of the front door) and the EAR/ONS just pretended to be leaving that condo or perhaps asked them a question perhaps pretending to be looking for someone? something like that? 

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Mar 4, 2015 6:01:12 GMT Drifter said:

Interesting comments, woofytreats.

It would seem then that we have two cars leaving the area at an unusual time. The one Shelby mentions that leaves at 3:17 a.m. The other leaving around 5:30 a.m. that Port mentions.

Why doesn't Port's timeline (posted above) include the car at 3:17? Why doesn't Shelby mention the car leaving at 5:30?

Then we have the possibility that the guy left on a bicycle, rendering both cars irrelevant.

Maybe all three possibilities are irrelevant, and the guy left on foot.

Is there no clear, definitive statement of how the ONS left the O/M murder scene?

I don't know what to make of Offerman's midnight conversation.

D.

Here is the timeline I have regarding the cars: 

Midnight Offerman' Porsche is heard driving into the parking lot.

3:05 am shots are heard

3:05 upon hearing gunshots a neighbor looked into the parking lot, saw nothing but heard a vehicle screeching it's tires and racing it's engine in the area of Avenida Pequena & Cathedral Oaks road

3:17 a.m. neighbors observed a white compact car (Pinto or Honda Civic) driving slowly through the condo's south parking lot with the lights off. The neighbor     thought that it may have been driven by the person who delivers the Los Angeles Times newspaper.

    (note the Offerman's parking lot I belive was on the north side of their condo from my personal observations of driving into the condos but there is a parking     lot on the south side a further distance away for other condos)

4:00 to 5:00 a.m. a white Pontiac is seen leaving the area of Offerman's condo.(this is not from the paperwork I have, but is from a poster on this board Goletaguru, who has been confirmed to have been the paperboy and was delivering papers at the time stated...his mother driving and he throwing the papers out the back of their station wagon. They reported this to LE and the description of the white Pontiac as seen by them is indeed in the records.)

5:00 a.m. a neighbor heard squealing tires ("at around 5:00 am")