Revisiting the Offerman/Manning murders .....

[magnumforce73]

Sept 3, 2014 8:35:18 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Sept 2, 2014 17:16:49 GMT magnumforce73 said:

Hi Pendleton--

Specifically, the same type of twine used at Goleta I (Queen Ann Lane; 1 October 1979).  It makes sense--he does it not only to prepare for an attack; I'm convinced he does it as part of his power trip--i.e., "I own them [victims] and I own their property."  Also, per 99's notes, I believe ONS had a perfect perspective of Dr. Offerman's master bedroom.

My question is whether or not investigators ever asked the "Dungeons & Dragons" crew if they felt that someone had been inside the condo (the condo next door to 767 A.P.) or if they felt that someone had been watching them.  It's an instinctual thing, but you can feel it when someone is closely watching you--and that's turned up on more than one occasion during the EAR/ONS saga--starting with #1 on Paseo Drive.

mf73

I want to share what I know. I have some of my notes but not all, so parts of this will be specific and parts from memory.

The vacant condo next door to Offerman/Manning at 769 Avenida Pequena was for sale and the female owner of that condo allowed her son, I'll call him C.M., to stay in that condo and let him have his friends over to play Dungeons and Dragons. There was a sofa in the condo. Apparently they played Dungeons and Dragons numerous times. The evening leading up to the murders of O/M the boys were playing and they left to Carrows, an all night large coffee shop on Calle Real near by  around midnight (I have to find my notes to be positive it was midnight, but I think so). I don't know what time C.M. returned to go to sleep. At some point EAR/ONS broke into his condo and I would assume it was before the murders of O/M and not after, and I would assume he broke in after the boys left unless he was hidden in the condo while they were in there. I kind of doubt it because I think the boys would have noticed the break in .

At 10:30 to 11 p.m. Dr. Offerman delivered a ski boot tree to his son.
At 12:00 Offerman's neighbor heard his Porsche drive into the parking lot north of her condo. She heard 3 voices. One that sounded like Offerman. One of an unidentified male and an unidentified female.
Around midnight C.M. and friends left for Carrows.
3:05 a.m. O/M were murdered, multiple shots were fired.

Question: When did C.M. return home? Creepy scenario. Did he arrive after 3:05 a.m. or before and was fast asleep and not hear the shots next door? But in the morning he sauntered outside oblivious to what had happened. He was questioned as well as all of the other boys and they were cleared.

Here is where it gets very interesting to me. There was another kid. initials A.S., 6' tall (and if I recall correctly he has red hair). A.S. usually played D/D with those boys in that condo but not that night as I understand it.

Twine was found at:
773 Ave Pequena on the Patio
769 Ave. Pequena in the Master Bathroom
Creekbed at intersection of Cathedral Oaks and Kellogg under the bridge on the west side of 866 North Kellogg on the trail leading to the greenbelt
825 North Kellogg on the dirt trail east side of roadway
at XXX Queen Ann Lane, Front lawn next to side walk

Here is where my framing theory comes in to play and it seems so O B V I O U S to me.  The twine was dropped like bread crumbs from the murder scene along the above mentioned route and landed on the Queen Ann lawn of A.S.

Now with DNA A.S. of course has been cleared, also he is too tall, I'll bet his feet are too big, and I think he has red hair, none the less, I'd be willing to wager he has been under LE scrutiny for years. I think the teen sister of A.S. might have been a possible target of EAR/ONS. She is the one who witnessed a man knocking on her neighbors door at 6:10 p.m. and again the same male knocked at 7:00 p.m. That neighbor was one of the 5 burglary victims that night. The neighbor returned home at 9:30 to discover the burglary. Another neighbor in front of A.S. on Windsor Court was also burglarized, the one with the dog that was beaten, and his other neighbor less than a block away was H/H the first Goleta couple that escaped. A.S. was like in the center of a circle of crimes with the twine leading to his lawn. Framed!

I contacted the father of A.S. and got out about two sentences, only to be told "how dare I call him" and that my saying that I think his son was framed was "B.S." and he hung up the phone, furious with me. I wrote him a nice letter explaining that I was very  sincere and explaining my framing theory and that I would give him a week to think about it and I would call again. I asked him to please help me and cooperate in catching this murderer who undoubtedly caused his family a lot of grief too but....if he did not want to help me I would never contact him again. When I called a week later, he was no longer furious with me but just said he didn't want to talk and that I had hit a dead end and hung up again. I have never tried to contact him again. Why would he not want to help me? I can't understand that.  I wanted to ask if A.S. noticed anyone following him home?  If he had an enemy?  If he knew anyone that came from No. Cal etc.  If he knew Brett Glasby?  Of course I couldn't ask if he had a drug connection but some of the other people I think were framed were of questionable character and possibly small time drug dealers such as Brett Glasby.

Here are some of the other times I think EAR/ONS tried to frame people. So much so that I almost think it is a part of his M.O.
There was the jacket dropped at a scene in I think Davis. The security officer's badge, that was dropped. There was a baseball cap that said "Overhead Garage" I was told about that I believe was dropped, there was the bag of costume jewlery left in the home of Tracy Earle making him come under suspicion. Tracy Earle was the teen boy neighbor of "Heather" victim #6, 10/09/76. There was Walter Hamilton, the EAR/ONS kept jumping into his yard and stomping around and kicking over fencing and there was more. Apparently Walter Hamilton was a prime poi until DNA. I no longer know if the dog was used to frame Brett Glasby. There is another poi whose DNA is scheduled for testing and Arch agrees with me that if this poi is not the EAR/ONS (he is dead) then Arch thinks he was framed. By the way the jacket that was worn in Danville with letters that are said to be "CORN" could tie in with this last poi I just mentioned. I think wearing an identifiable jacket could have been another attempt at framing this poi among other things.

[Deleted]

fascinating Sandia -- very helpful in clarifying some of the "framing" material -- thank you; and question please: this POI who is

"scheduled for testing"?. . .when might the results be in -- do you know?

[magnumforce73]

Sept 3, 2014 8:35:18 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Sept 2, 2014 17:16:49 GMT magnumforce73 said:

Hi Pendleton--

Specifically, the same type of twine used at Goleta I (Queen Ann Lane; 1 October 1979).  It makes sense--he does it not only to prepare for an attack; I'm convinced he does it as part of his power trip--i.e., "I own them [victims] and I own their property."  Also, per 99's notes, I believe ONS had a perfect perspective of Dr. Offerman's master bedroom.

My question is whether or not investigators ever asked the "Dungeons & Dragons" crew if they felt that someone had been inside the condo (the condo next door to 767 A.P.) or if they felt that someone had been watching them.  It's an instinctual thing, but you can feel it when someone is closely watching you--and that's turned up on more than one occasion during the EAR/ONS saga--starting with #1 on Paseo Drive.

mf73

I want to share what I know. I have some of my notes but not all, so parts of this will be specific and parts from memory.

The vacant condo next door to Offerman/Manning at 769 Avenida Pequena was for sale and the female owner of that condo allowed her son, I'll call him C.M., to stay in that condo and let him have his friends over to play Dungeons and Dragons. There was a sofa in the condo. Apparently they played Dungeons and Dragons numerous times. The evening leading up to the murders of O/M the boys were playing and they left to Carrows, an all night large coffee shop on Calle Real near by  around midnight (I have to find my notes to be positive it was midnight, but I think so). I don't know what time C.M. returned to go to sleep. At some point EAR/ONS broke into his condo and I would assume it was before the murders of O/M and not after, and I would assume he broke in after the boys left unless he was hidden in the condo while they were in there. I kind of doubt it because I think the boys would have noticed the break in .

At 10:30 to 11 p.m. Dr. Offerman delivered a ski boot tree to his son.
At 12:00 Offerman's neighbor heard his Porsche drive into the parking lot north of her condo. She heard 3 voices. One that sounded like Offerman. One of an unidentified male and an unidentified female.
Around midnight C.M. and friends left for Carrows.
3:05 a.m. O/M were murdered, multiple shots were fired.

Question: When did C.M. return home? Creepy scenario. Did he arrive after 3:05 a.m. or before and was fast asleep and not hear the shots next door? But in the morning he sauntered outside oblivious to what had happened. He was questioned as well as all of the other boys and they were cleared.

Here is where it gets very interesting to me. There was another kid. initials A.S., 6' tall (and if I recall correctly he has red hair). A.S. usually played D/D with those boys in that condo but not that night as I understand it.

Twine was found at:
773 Ave Pequena on the Patio
769 Ave. Pequena in the Master Bathroom
Creekbed at intersection of Cathedral Oaks and Kellogg under the bridge on the west side of 866 North Kellogg on the trail leading to the greenbelt
825 North Kellogg on the dirt trail east side of roadway
at XXX Queen Ann Lane, Front lawn next to side walk

Here is where my framing theory comes in to play and it seems so O B V I O U S to me.  The twine was dropped like bread crumbs from the murder scene along the above mentioned route and landed on the Queen Ann lawn of A.S.

Now with DNA A.S. of course has been cleared, also he is too tall, I'll bet his feet are too big, and I think he has red hair, none the less, I'd be willing to wager he has been under LE scrutiny for years. I think the teen sister of A.S. might have been a possible target of EAR/ONS. She is the one who witnessed a man knocking on her neighbors door at 6:10 p.m. and again the same male knocked at 7:00 p.m. That neighbor was one of the 5 burglary victims that night. The neighbor returned home at 9:30 to discover the burglary. Another neighbor in front of A.S. on Windsor Court was also burglarized, the one with the dog that was beaten, and his other neighbor less than a block away was H/H the first Goleta couple that escaped. A.S. was like in the center of a circle of crimes with the twine leading to his lawn. Framed!

I contacted the father of A.S. and got out about two sentences, only to be told "how dare I call him" and that my saying that I think his son was framed was "B.S." and he hung up the phone, furious with me. I wrote him a nice letter explaining that I was very  sincere and explaining my framing theory and that I would give him a week to think about it and I would call again. I asked him to please help me and cooperate in catching this murderer who undoubtedly caused his family a lot of grief too but....if he did not want to help me I would never contact him again. When I called a week later, he was no longer furious with me but just said he didn't want to talk and that I had hit a dead end and hung up again. I have never tried to contact him again. Why would he not want to help me? I can't understand that.  I wanted to ask if A.S. noticed anyone following him home?  If he had an enemy?  If he knew anyone that came from No. Cal etc.  If he knew Brett Glasby?  Of course I couldn't ask if he had a drug connection but some of the other people I think were framed were of questionable character and possibly small time drug dealers such as Brett Glasby.

Here are some of the other times I think EAR/ONS tried to frame people. So much so that I almost think it is a part of his M.O.
There was the jacket dropped at a scene in I think Davis. The security officer's badge, that was dropped. There was a baseball cap that said "Overhead Garage" I was told about that I believe was dropped, there was the bag of costume jewlery left in the home of Tracy Earle making him come under suspicion. Tracy Earle was the teen boy neighbor of "Heather" victim #6, 10/09/76. There was Walter Hamilton, the EAR/ONS kept jumping into his yard and stomping around and kicking over fencing and there was more. Apparently Walter Hamilton was a prime poi until DNA. I no longer know if the dog was used to frame Brett Glasby. There is another poi whose DNA is scheduled for testing and Arch agrees with me that if this poi is not the EAR/ONS (he is dead) then Arch thinks he was framed. By the way the jacket that was worn in Danville with letters that are said to be "CORN" could tie in with this last poi I just mentioned. I think wearing an identifiable jacket could have been another attempt at framing this poi among other things.

99--

Marvelous.  Thank you for posting this.  A few thoughts:

Goleta is ground zero for the hyperkinetic activity that marked ONS activity.  A part me doubts he was inside 769 A.P. while the boys were there playing D&D, but another part me believes he could have been--I believe he could have successfully secreted himself inside while the boys did their thing.  Sure, pry marks or tossed window screens could have been possible, but my faith in people fails whenever I read about such instances and people refuse to phone police--or in some cases, when L.E. blows off a prowler report.  Either way, he was there--and I believe so that he could watch whatever went on inside the master bedroom of Dr. Offerman's condo.  

99, I can't speak for A.S., but the father's behavior goes beyond strange--it's downright suspicious.  You would think that the father would be chomping at the bit to finally and forever cast L.E. off his son's back.  At the risk of sounding heartless, I must ask: what is wrong with people in this specific neighborhood?  This rash of hyperkinetics unfolded in plain sight, in people's front (and back) yards.  The prowling episodes, the prolific break-ins, etc. manifest themselves right in everyone's faces, yet somehow he slips under the radar.  I now come back to this episode regarding A.S. and his father: I have a strong suspicion that someone in this neighborhood knows who ONS really is.  These coincidences are too much--likewise, everyone remaining mum on the matter.  Worse, this bizarre activity went on in spurts for the better part of two years.  Didn't anyone care enough to see it resolved?

mf73

P.S.--At 1200 on 30 December 1979, do we know who the third voice was in the Offerman driveway?  Or, rather, do we have any suspicions whom it might be?

[dbw]

I can understand SOME of the father's suspicions.

First of all, he has no idea who is calling him and what, if any conection they have to the case. For all he knows it could be GSK or somebody associated with him.

Second of all, we have no idea how his family or his son was treated by LE. He may harbor deep suspicions somebody is trying to pin an undeserved murder rap on his son, or that this may be another go-around of suspicions and possible harassment.

Third, we don't know what kind of suspicion his neighbors or the community had of his son or his family or how those suspicions may have affected the way others behaved toward them.

It's a very spooky creepy case all the way around, one that has led to a lot of innocent people being accused, under suspicion, harrassed, in fear, and anxious.

Of course, we would all hope everybody would be understanding and cooperative with our efforts to solve this case. In reality, there are a lot more variables on people's behavior than our good will in trying to solve a 30+ year old case.

[pendleton]

I think you're underestimating the average person's aversion to getting involved. I've lived in a big city long enough to see that type of aversion first hand numerous times. No one wants to get involved. Everyone has a cell phone but no one wants to be the one to call 911and if the phones do come out, it's usually to video what ever's going on so they can upload it to Facebook or Youtube. Like dbw said, this is a thirty-plus year old case. It wouldn't be a bit surprising and would even be understandable if this man and his family simply want to forget about it and move on with their lives.

[woofytreats]

Absolutely agree...I'm sure there's a lot of layers here that would prevent me from making any kind of judgement on the father. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of being uncooperative, suspicious or strange receiving an unsolicited phone call about his son's involvement in an incident that they probably put behind them years ago. We have no idea how much of an ongoing burden that situation was to them, to the neighbors, and any peripheral parties that were there. I wouldn't anticipate "friendly" because it's doubtful that the good intentions of an unknown person are going to supercede everything that comes before.

[dengas]

Sept 3, 2014 16:26:03 GMT woofytreats said:

Absolutely agree...I'm sure there's a lot of layers here that would prevent me from making any kind of judgement on the father. I certainly wouldn't accuse him of being uncooperative, suspicious or strange receiving an unsolicited phone call about his son's involvement in an incident that they probably put behind them years ago. We have no idea how much of an ongoing burden that situation was to them, to the neighbors, and any peripheral parties that were there. I wouldn't anticipate "friendly" because it's doubtful that the good intentions of an unknown person are going to supercede everything that comes before.

[dbw]

Wow. Makes sense, Port. You would think I would know by now, but the more I look into this case, the more I realize what a sick puppy GSK is. He just loves playing mind games and seems to enjoy them even more when LE doesn't get it. Imagine the type of surveilance needed to learn all if the info he needs to play these kind of mind games and the planning involved. It's not just a matter of getting away with break ins, rapes, and murders - he also has to get away with leaving clues all over the place to make a statement.

[Deleted]

     and if A.E.'s sister was a suspected target all the more reason for the father to flip his lid at unknown callers regarding the case

     albeit many years later -- especially if there is any suspicion that the perp may still be living close by or returning to the area

[magnumforce73]

I probably should have stated beforehand that I would think the father, after determining whether or not someone is legitimately concerned and wanting to help--as per the details in 99's account--would be more willing to assist.  I did not mean to slander the man--I just found it suspicious that he would still be reluctant to talk after all this time.  Of course, like others have said, this isn't the most pleasant conversation material.

mf73

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 3, 2014 13:06:43 GMT dbw said:

Thanks for sharing Sandia. I have long suspected EAR was "dropping" ligatures and other items easily connect to the attacks as red herrings or the "frame" others. How can he be so careful and meticulous about some things and so sloppy about "dropping" items. I also strongly suspect, at least in Sacramento, burglars and others were "dropping" shoe laces and other items to confuse LE. Simply put, there is simply too much stuff left lying around all over the place.

That is an interesting thought about other criminals dropping ligatures to throw LE off.  However, I wonder if ligatures were mentioned in the press back then, in other words would other criminals have known about that.  Somehow I think your common burglar is a drug addict, not reading the paper, and really a non-thinker, just needs money, break in when people are NOT at home, grab something of value and run.  It seems like it would have to have been another rapist.  A cat burglar rapist is a rare.  So I don't think it would be "all over the place"   and a common scenario, but it is a thought provoking possibility that some other individual would do tha.  Not in Goleta though for sure.  Nobody knew of him.

[pendleton]

Sept 3, 2014 17:19:05 GMT portofleith said:

I happen to think that what EAR/GSK left behind at crime scenes were not framing items- they were messages to LE.  The badge left behind at a Contra Costa crime scene was a reminder to the victims and to the Sac sheriff who happened to share the same rare Italian name and investigated each EAR crime, who had been there.  

The security officer's badge wasn't left behind at a crime scene. It was found by a neighbour of the 06/10/1978 Contra Costa victims in front of his house two days after the crime. It was never linked to EAR.

[tmacchallenger]

Sept 3, 2014 17:59:41 GMT pendleton said:

Sept 3, 2014 17:19:05 GMT portofleith said:

I happen to think that what EAR/GSK left behind at crime scenes were not framing items- they were messages to LE.  The badge left behind at a Contra Costa crime scene was a reminder to the victims and to the Sac sheriff who happened to share the same rare Italian name and investigated each EAR crime, who had been there.  

The security officer's badge wasn't left behind at a crime scene. It was found by a neighbour of the 06/10/1978 Contra Costa victims in front of his house two days after the crime. It was never linked to EAR.

Imho, if it was dropped by EAR, it was done accidently.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2014 17:59:41 GMT pendleton said:

Sept 3, 2014 17:19:05 GMT portofleith said:

I happen to think that what EAR/GSK left behind at crime scenes were not framing items- they were messages to LE.  The badge left behind at a Contra Costa crime scene was a reminder to the victims and to the Sac sheriff who happened to share the same rare Italian name and investigated each EAR crime, who had been there.  

The security officer's badge wasn't left behind at a crime scene. It was found by a neighbour of the 06/10/1978 Contra Costa victims in front of his house two days after the crime. It was never linked to EAR.

                    

                          it seems completely plausible to me that EAR might be clever enough to be BOTH framing and taunting the police

                          --basically running circles around them

[tmacchallenger]

Sept 3, 2014 18:12:10 GMT portofleith said:

Sept 3, 2014 18:03:15 GMT tmacchallenger said:

Imho, if it was dropped by EAR, it was done accidently.

EAR had very few accidents.  He frequently left articles of clothing stolen from a victim or other items in neighbors yards, e.g bottles of pills, jewelry, sweaters etc.  Some in LE believe he was creating false scent trails for the police dogs.  I think it was a bit more perverse than that.  He also left items not belonging to the victims behind in their homes.

Very true that he barely made any mistakes. Nobody's perfect though, as those Custer and 6th grade papers would indicate, that he left behind. Sorry, but no one will ever convince me that he left those behind on purpose or that they weren't his.

Leaving items behind in the backyards as a way to throw off the scent of the dogs is an interesting idea that I have not heard of. I just figured he was like a greedy kid, grabbing too many souvenirs for him to carry back so he would drop stuff on the ground, purposely to lighten his load, as he went along. What do you mean by suggesting something was more perverse behind it?