Domingo & Sanchez: Reconstructing the events of 27 July 1981

[portofleith]

Sept 20, 2013 0:37:27 GMT cerulean said:

Sept 19, 2013 19:09:50 GMT portofleith said:

I think it is misleading to characterize the ONS murders as "quickly done". While the males may have been dispatched quickly, without reading police and autopsy reports, it is pure speculation to theorize about how long ONS was in a home both prior to and after the initial attack.

It's not misleading at all to speculate that the ONS attacks were shorter than the epic rape sleepovers he conducted as EAR.
 Murdering changes the game somewhat. For example, where's the ransacking of the home? That took time to do, as EAR and it's not a factor in the ONS cases. I guess he might have sat in a hard kitchen chair for an hour or three, but thats not in keeping with his known behavior.  There was no straining of the victim under the ligatures for both Smiths, and it wasnt mentioned for any of the other victims either. The longer he stayed, the more he moved out of the room and back in, the more likely the victim would have strained against the ligatures, especially if the man was killed and the woman left there alone while ONS did EAR things like wandering around.  If they had autopsy information to show that the victims had undergone a prolonged ordeal, they would have said it. Im sure he could have stood next to a victim and whispered a lot of horrible stuff to them, but for how long? Because even that can leave a physical clue to determine it:  the bathroom carpeting showed that ONS had stood there for a good amount of time before coming into the bedroom.
So its speculation on what we know. It's not misleading at all. It's misleading to say he spent a long amount of time torturing the murder victims when theres no fact or evidence to suggest it. Offerman/Manning, as first victims, might have been alone together, bound, in the room while ONS ate their turkey, but the consensus is that he left immediately after shooting them.  Two things he may have learned: thathe cant act like EAR here, in part because these victims were more aggressive than the ones up north, and that when the gun goes off, you should probably leave before any cops come. That has a direct bearing on the Domingo/Sanchez case that came later. 
 

The Smith home was ransacked.  GSK drank milk in the Smith home.  There is nothing to suggest that he exited the Offerman Manning crime scene quickly.  In fact, the evidence points otherwise, as many people went outside and to their windows when the shots were heard and saw nothing.  GSK was most likely snacking on Christmas dinner after the murders.  You can see the ligature bruises on two of the murder victims in several of the television programs.

None of us should speculate on the murder time frames without knowing the facts.  

[guessting]

Thanks Port. It is not good to state anything as "FACT" unless you can cite your reference for it. That is how I have often beleived many misleading "FACTS" until I could prove it otherwise. It is important IMO as a poster and researcher that if I believe I am are stating a "FACT" that I show you or tell you where I came upon that information. On the smaller details for me it is not so important but when you are discussing the facts of a homicide I would think if you have a belief, call it such. If you have fact, show it. Just my opinion. g

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2013 0:57:12 GMT portofleith said:

Sept 20, 2013 0:37:27 GMT cerulean said:

It's not misleading at all to speculate that the ONS attacks were shorter than the epic rape sleepovers he conducted as EAR.
 Murdering changes the game somewhat. For example, where's the ransacking of the home? That took time to do, as EAR and it's not a factor in the ONS cases. I guess he might have sat in a hard kitchen chair for an hour or three, but thats not in keeping with his known behavior.  There was no straining of the victim under the ligatures for both Smiths, and it wasnt mentioned for any of the other victims either. The longer he stayed, the more he moved out of the room and back in, the more likely the victim would have strained against the ligatures, especially if the man was killed and the woman left there alone while ONS did EAR things like wandering around.  If they had autopsy information to show that the victims had undergone a prolonged ordeal, they would have said it. Im sure he could have stood next to a victim and whispered a lot of horrible stuff to them, but for how long? Because even that can leave a physical clue to determine it:  the bathroom carpeting showed that ONS had stood there for a good amount of time before coming into the bedroom.
So its speculation on what we know. It's not misleading at all. It's misleading to say he spent a long amount of time torturing the murder victims when theres no fact or evidence to suggest it. Offerman/Manning, as first victims, might have been alone together, bound, in the room while ONS ate their turkey, but the consensus is that he left immediately after shooting them.  Two things he may have learned: thathe cant act like EAR here, in part because these victims were more aggressive than the ones up north, and that when the gun goes off, you should probably leave before any cops come. That has a direct bearing on the Domingo/Sanchez case that came later. 
 

The Smith home was ransacked.  GSK drank milk in the Smith home.  There is nothing to suggest that he exited the Offerman Manning crime scene quickly.  In fact, the evidence points otherwise, as many people went outside and to their windows when the shots were heard and saw nothing.  GSK was most likely snacking on Christmas dinner after the murders.  You can see the ligature bruises on two of the murder victims in several of the television programs.

None of us should speculate on the murder time frames without knowing the facts.  

Why shouldnt we speculate on the time frames? We speculate on everything else. And none of us have all the facts, just the facts we can point to. Until ONS tells what he did, people will speculate on every aspect of the crimes.

The only thing Ive ever seen about 'ransacking' in print is that the couch seating was overturned. He didnt even go through her expensive jewelry collection she had in plain sight, in the bathroom. In the crime scene pics I think you can see a drawer or more were gone through. He looked for mementos, and they almost exclusively came from the bedroom.  Drinking some milk doesnt point to a time frame, it just says he drank some milk. The ransacking he used to do as EAR took time. You mentioned the Smith's, what about the homes of the other ONS victims? They werent ransacked.
 
I didnt say (or mean) that he left the scene immediately after he killed.  Youd have to be dumb to just run out. I said that its likely he left the scene more quickly than when he used to hang around the scenes as EAR. The torture was long enough to rape, at least with Charlene and Janelle(?) because of where the semen was found.

Bruises would of course be noticeable because EAR victims had them too -he tied the ligatures tight enough to cause an indentation that would bruise postmortem, and the Smiths bodies laid there for 2 or 3 days.   My point still stands, that if it were prolonged torture there would be more evidence of it showing on the bodies and in the home.

[portofleith]

Sept 20, 2013 2:44:42 GMT cerulean said:

"GSK was most likely snacking on Christmas dinner after the murders."

You put this in a time frame. So why do you think its
"more likely" that he snacked "after" the murders and not before?

 "Speculations" should be always qualified with that notation. My phrase "most likely" is speculation.  You are speculating , just as you made the supposition in another post that David Witthuhn was ten years older than Manuela, when in fact, they were the same age.

This case needs less "speculation" and more attention to detail. . . perhaps fewer words and verbosity.

From one of my favorite movies:

youtu.be/VxzDgfVI9H0

[Deleted]

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Sept 20, 2013 3:25:41 GMT portofleith said:

Sept 20, 2013 2:44:42 GMT cerulean said:

n
"more likely" that he snacked "after" the murders and not before?

You don't have the autopsies, so your "speculations" should be always qualified with that notation.  You are speculating without fact , just as you made the supposition in another post that David Witthuhn was ten years older than Manuela, when in fact, they were the same age.

This case needs less "speculation" and more attention to detail. . . perhaps fewer words and verbosity.

From one of my favorite movies:

lhttp://youtu.be/4php_B1LQiM

Wow.. actually, this case could use less people pointing fingers at others for what they themselves do. You need to follow your own advice on the matter, and the proof is two posts up.  You have no way of knowing when he ate that turkey, and you are speculating about it and calling it a fact, with no fact supporting the speculation or to even suggest it might be true.

Earlier this evening (and on a different thread), I had edited the ages of O/M &  D/S--in a post where I had said i thought Mr Witthun was about 10 years older; I had not stated it as fact. I dont know Mr Witthun's age but thought  he was older.  I dont know why youre looking for my errors in particular,  when the board is filled with them, and not everyone goes back and corrects their posts.  I really didnt have to correct that one, either, because I did not say that was a fact. As for qualifiers, i mentioned one in a post on here, even though its not needed because I wasnt quoting from a report that no one but LE has. I dont need to qualify that I do not have something that is only available to the LE.  I dont need to qualify that, any more than I need to qualify in every post that Im not GSK. 

I pointed to the facts in my posts that lead to the speculation. Some of it made sense to others on the board, who understood I was speculating based on the facts (because the facts are available to them, also), and they appreciated it. If you dont, thats your opinion, but blaming me for something you yourself do and going into other threads to find any potential errors of mine, makes you look like you cant defend your own words, and makes you look petty.   So now that youve forced me to defend myself and we have both explained our positions on the matter, maybe we can shut up on it and go back to the thread, because this is ridiculous.

[debris]

Easy, folks. Eye on the ball, please. Try to keep in mind that nearly everything we KNOW ---or THINK we know--- could change, once an identification is made. Please keep the peace!

---Deb

[portofleith]

Thank you for reminding me Deb that the case is progressing and everyone is entitled to their opinions until the facts are known.

Does anyone know why Sacramento isn't releasing the time period for the matched paint samples from the two attacks there? It seems like looking at construction projects completed within that very narrow window would be significant.

[gskonstracker]

Sept 19, 2013 20:19:07 GMT portofleith said:

Sept 19, 2013 19:59:33 GMT ED5000 said:

I agree Port. I'm just stuck on the damn dog and am trying to do a bit of profiling in my head..... I think the dog tells us something important but I'm just not sure what.

Erik- I agree with you about the dog and as I have said before, the dog blood on the sidewalk leading from Toltec to the Kellogg Ave Bridge the night of Domingo Sanchez just confuses me even more.  

Can someone point out on a map where the 'Kellogg Ave. Bridge' is located?

[geko]

I can't find it either. There's mention of Hollister bridge here -

www.noozhawk.com/article/032013_goleta_business_leaders_tour_city_improvements/

I put in Google - Mission city auto centre, Goleta to find that (Can't do Google pics, sorry)

[debris]

My best guess on the bridge is that they meant to say Berkeley bridge. Tiny footbridge that crosses the creek on Berkeley Road directly west of Merida.

[portofleith]

I know it is a foot bridge and not for cars.  Thanks Deb.  

[portofleith]

This article and a similar article in the The Orange County Register appeared shortly after the Domingo Sanchez murders.  Up to this point, I think GSK thought he was covering his footsteps.  These articles making linkage to Orange County and Ventura must have made him nervous.

[ezraeda]

Hello roger. First, I'm very sorry you and your family suffered through this terrible thing. I am thrilled at the chance to ask you a question that has been eating at me for a long time. Did Greg attend grade school in Santa Barbara? He looks familiar to me, is the right age, and there was a Greg Sanchez in my grammar school class. It will be such a relief to finally have an answer. And thank you.

[rogdomingo]

Oct 4, 2013 23:10:28 GMT ezraeda said:

Hello roger. First, I'm very sorry you and your family suffered through this terrible thing. I am thrilled at the chance to ask you a question that has been eating at me for a long time. Did Greg attend grade school in Santa Barbara? He looks familiar to me, is the right age, and there was a Greg Sanchez in my grammar school class. It will be such a relief to finally have an answer. And thank you.

"Did Greg attend grade school in Santa Barbara?"     Let's see if Deb recalls anything about that. She knew Greg well, and spent the kind of time with him that might yield such information.  I had moved back to San Diego by the time Cheri dated Greg, and never really spent time with him.

[ezraeda]

Oct 5, 2013 23:29:58 GMT rogdomingo said:

Oct 4, 2013 23:10:28 GMT ezraeda said:

Hello roger. First, I'm very sorry you and your family suffered through this terrible thing. I am thrilled at the chance to ask you a question that has been eating at me for a long time. Did Greg attend grade school in Santa Barbara? He looks familiar to me, is the right age, and there was a Greg Sanchez in my grammar school class. It will be such a relief to finally have an answer. And thank you.

"Did Greg attend grade school in Santa Barbara?"     Let's see if Deb recalls anything about that. She knew Greg well, and spent the kind of time with him that might yield such information.  I had moved back to San Diego by the time Cheri dated Greg, and never really spent time with him.

Thanks roger! Deb did get back on that, looks like Greg grew up elsewhere. Just a weird coincidence, but perhaps a caution to all of us. The human brain seeks out patterns and will find them whether they exist or not. That's a neurological fact. We-- in this instance, I-- need to be careful about finding patterns, drawing inferences, assuming connections. A small lesson in humility for me. Thank you for responding so quickly.