Domingo & Sanchez: Reconstructing the events of 27 July 1981

[redding]

To me the most interesting detail to come out of this thread is the murder weapon.  He really had a great deal of confidence in his ability to bludgeon. That was a fairly large clumsy tool to swing accurately.  I know it doesn't take any skill to bludgeon a person to death and it is a very common cause of death in violent homicides.  Having said that I find it interesting that in several of the murders he killed with a single blow.  To swing that turf plugger accurately in that dark room is impressive.  Pipe wrench, log, metal sprinkler, unwieldy turf plugger, he was very confident with this method.  This reminds me of a construction worker sinking nails.  Have you ever seen an experienced framer hit a nail?  They have incredible power and precision.  They can sink a 3" nail with one hit.  The average homeowner would probably have to hit the same nail 4 or 5 times. The speed and accuracy delivers a ton of energy to the nail head.  It is similar to a baseball swing or a golf swing. Muscle memory developed by doing the same thing over and over thousands of times.  It is true that anyone could of bludgeoned these victims. It is also true that if an experienced framer choose to hit a person in the head with something the first blow would almost certainly kill. Also to me swinging that turf plugger accurately would be tough for most people.  A framer would have the wrist and forearm strength, and the technique to do it with ease. IMO

Here is a video of a 75 year old framer sinking nails.  Check out his swings around the 2:40 mark.  Keep in mind he is hitting something that is only about a quarter inch wide, and that he is hitting full speed at the exact right angle.  If you watch the whole video...he never misses. Also note the tool belt.  : www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQWjA7u9LzM 

His swing is about three times more powerful than the average joe.  

[lepke]

That is an interesting idea about EAR/ONS being well drilled in swinging something that could be used to bludgeon. An activity that is more obviously comparable to what EAR/ONS was doing at murder scenes than hitting nails with a hammer, is swinging a bat at a ball accurately, and the sporting angle, even on the basis of it having been a hobby, has attracted some attention in the past.

[rogdomingo]

Sept 15, 2013 4:33:05 GMT cerulean said:

Sept 14, 2013 23:21:38 GMT rogdomingo said:

"Greg most likely was hit without anything covering his face. So what about the splatter there?" 
This line is really opening my memory banks to new stuff.  Until now, I had not internalized the information about the tactic of covering the head before bludgeoning, or the advantages to ONS of doing this.  I will address the (small) quantity of blood in Cheri's blood trails in a moment.  The fact that the blood trails on the ceiling over (Cheri) is so vivid in my memory, and that I have no recollection of any such trail anywhere else could have two explanations: 1) Trails of Greg's blood were also there and I blocked them out in my fixation on what had to be Cheri's blood; or 2) ONS did cover Greg's head with closet clothing before the vigorous, repeated bludgeoning, so none of Greg's blood was cast off on the ceiling.

"It is possible that in his haste, he hit Cheri without the blanket because he was essentially assassinating her quickly so he could get out. So he may have hit her, and hard -possibly enough to kill her or definitely knock her out. And then continued. How much blood trail did you see? If he had continued to hit her with no blanket on, you may have seen brain matter in with the splatter, and it sounds like you didnt."
I did not consider what now seems likely, that a single fatal blow to the back of Cheri's head was not followed by a backswing, and that ONS covered her head before delivering the multiple blows that resulted in the many blood trails above. I had never stopped to ponder the question of why, if the force of impact was so brutal and the number of blood trails were so many, (why) were the trails such thin lines and droplets.  Indeed, while the number of lines was dramatic, the quantity of blood they contained was minimal.  Once Cheri's belongings were released to us,  we received two pictures that had been on the (rear) wall that both contained a small number of very tiny droplets of Cheri's blood.   The suggestion that ONS covered her head with a blanket (or perhaps just a sheet) prior to the savage beating would be consistent with minimized volume of blood that spun off to the ceiling.  With that as the context, ONS would probably have been successful in preventing (much) blood evidence from being on his body or clothing as he made his escape.

Yes I think something like this scenario happened, from what you say.

Greg was probably shot at a close range and dropped, but he was shot through the cheek and not incapacitated. Unless the shot knocked him unconscious, adrenaline would have forced him back to his feet immediately, this was a very fit man, too. Greg wouldnt have hesitated in the seconds it would take for ONS to pull out some clothes and throw it on his face before he swung. He would have gotten up or grabbed and brought ONS down.  So ONS had to be on him and swinging down onto his head immediately after that shot dropped him. ONS was also a fit, agile man. In a small space, this was not hard to accomplish. If that is so, then Gregs blood is on the instrument, and possibly Gregs blood was the blood or part of the blood that left the trails on the ceiling. Cheri's blood would have soaked through a sheet, as ONS continued to swing down and back. But since she was tied and incapacitated and ONS had done this times before and knew how important it was for him to do, I believe he pull the sheet, blanket, what was there, over Cheri's head before he swung, or directly after the first swing.

Roger, Is this helping you to put the event in order a thing that is bringing you some peace of mind? Or is it disturbing to you?

"Roger, Is this helping you to put the event in order a thing that is bringing you some peace of mind? Or is it disturbing to you? "

I am spending much more of my time (day and night) thinking about ONS these days, and folks closest to me would say that I seem to be distracted/preoccupied, so it would be accurate to say that I am more focused on this than ever before. It is much more "peace of mind" than "disturbing."  Thanks for your help, everyone, in that.

[portofleith]

Roger,

Thank you for taking time to create the floor plan to give us a better picture of the house layout. There is a row of houses behind Toltec on Merida that face the little green space that sits above the creek bed. The times that I have visited the crime scenes, it has appeared that a variety of workman use that little green space on their lunch hours e.g. carpet installation trucks, pool service etc. Do you or Deb know if that was also the case then? The location of the green space allows anyone parked there to see who is exiting or entering the various cul de sacs. Do you know whether or not it is thought he jumped the fence from the house behind Cheri's or he entered into the side yard from the street on Toltec?

[rogdomingo]

Sept 15, 2013 8:08:50 GMT cerulean said:

Sept 15, 2013 6:23:24 GMT redding said:

 Having said that I find it interesting that in several of the murders he killed with a single blow.    

 It is true that anyone could of bludgeoned these victims. It is also true that if an experienced framer choose to hit a person in the head with something the first blow would almost certainly kill. Also to me swinging that turf plugger accurately would be tough for most people.  A framer would have the wrist and forearm strength, and the technique to do it with ease. IMO

How do you know that he killed several of the murder victims with a single blow if you havent seen the autopsy reports? 
Ive seen either in Crompton's book or an article, that both  C. Smith & C. Domingo were killed with one blow, but Ive never seen it confirmed by Pool or LE that were working the cases.

It's just a theory that sounds correct: that he swung hard enough the first time to kill or knock them out and that he kept hitting. To me it suggests that he wanted to kill them to dominate them, hit them to obliterate them, continued to hit them to expel his rage. I also think he hit all of the victims multiple times to make sure they were truly dead. He wanted to be thorough in this, like he was in everything else. Other than the struggling and fear that the women might show and excluding the rape, I dont think these had much to do with any type of prolonged torture, physical or mental. Because what seems to have been the driving factor, according to Pool , on the nights these people were killed, was that he was aroused by them having sex.  I dont think this was the case with other than a few of the couples he attacked as EAR, from reading the victim reports. But he made it a driving factor in attacking the coupled victims he would murder.  Based on this, I would guess that there was not a long elapse of time from breaking in, to raping/murdering. (Not like the hours he waited before, in the EAR crimes.) And then a very short time to leaving the scene.

"How do you know that he killed several of the murder victims with a single blow if you havent seen the autopsy reports?
Ive seen either in Crompton's book or an article, that both C. Smith & C. Domingo were killed with one blow, but Ive never seen it confirmed by Pool or LE that were working the cases." 

When LE was interrogating me inside the house the day after the bodies were found, they firmly told me that the first blow most likely was fatal to Cheri.  At that point they were aware of my emotional involvement, so they were alternating exaggerated/fabricated assertions designed to touch a nerve, with truly compassionate things that would ease my pain. Therefore I do not know if the "first blow" might have been just to make me feel better.  Having said that, I find it significant that Compton (p-445) states "She had been killed with a single blow to the head with the same weapon used to kill Sanchez."  My recollection was unknown to Mr. Compton at the time he wrote the book.

[portofleith]

i wonder if the bullet mentioned here was ever recovered and matched forensically to Offerman and Manning?  If the bullet was not recovered, it might suggest that, just as GSK took time to remove ligatures, he might have also taken the time to modify other elements of the crime scene.

[redding]

cerulean.

It has also been stated in the past that Lyman Smith was killed with a single blow to the back of the head. I believe it has also been stated by LE that the ONS generally quickly dispatched the male victims and had a lot of overkill on the female victims. If you compare the ONS to Richard Ramirez and Gerald Parker it is interesting to note that some of their victims survived. None of the ONS victims survived. He certainly had a very effective swing.

[rogdomingo]

Sept 15, 2013 12:48:13 GMT portofleith said:

Roger,

Thank you for taking time to create the floor plan to give us a better picture of the house layout. There is a row of houses behind Toltec on Merida that face the little green space that sits above the creek bed. The times that I have visited the crime scenes, it has appeared that a variety of workman use that little green space on their lunch hours e.g. carpet installation trucks, pool service etc. Do you or Deb know if that was also the case then? The location of the green space allows anyone parked there to see who is exiting or entering the various cul de sacs. Do you know whether or not it is thought he jumped the fence from the house behind Cheri's or he entered into the side yard from the street on Toltec?

Deb will have to answer about parking patterns/construction lunch in 1981.

"Do you know whether or not it is thought he jumped the fence from the house behind Cheri's or he entered into the side yard from the street on Toltec?"
I don't have any knowledge of his route arriving or leaving.  For arrival, he would have been just a guy taking a stroll as long as he walked the sidewalk in front of the house.  At the moment he was adjacent to the gate to the back yard, assuming it was night, I don't think he would have been visible through any window in the neighborhood (unless someone was standing right at their window looking out), and he could survey that no one was visible outside in the confined area of the cul de sac. Additionally, if no headlights were visible to him, even out on Toltec Drive, then no one in a car could arrive soon enough to see him leave the sidewalk and disappear through the gate. That would be much less risky than arriving through a neighbor's yard.  For the exit, however: While he was still busy in the bedroom, the front window would permit him to see any LE vehicle arriving, and he would have plenty of time to exit through the bathroom and vault the back fence, clear that yard, and cross the street into the concealment of the green space, all steps being invisible to LE parked on Toltec Way wondering what house might have produced a gunshot.  Given ONS's fear that someone had reported the gunshot + scream, even if no LE had arrived "yet," I'd guess that ONS did use the fence instead of the front gate, because it would be a long run (gate-ToltecWaySidewalk-ToltecDriveSidewalk-CrossTheStreet) to risk running into LE if they arrived during that time. Having gone over the fence into the back neighbor's back yard, then side yard + (bushes?), he could be sure no headlights were approaching before darting across the street into the green space.

[rogdomingo]

Sept 13, 2013 23:00:44 GMT cerulean said:

Sept 12, 2013 20:07:34 GMT rogdomingo said:

I'M SHOUTING, sorry, but this is important. Please HELP ME un-ring a bell. In recent posts, I ignorantly reported that Cheri's face was bludgeoned beyond recognition. I'm now pretty sure that I was wrong about that, and have been for 30+ years. Early-on I got that image in my mind, and it was reinforced by more recent info about EAR's pattern of making men witness the violation of the women, and of his frequent sadistic tormenting of the women with the sight of the gun/knife/whatever. The day after Cheri and Greg's bodies were discovered, Santa Barbara LE told me that Cheri had probably been killed by the first blow "to her head" and then bludgeoned repeatedly.

*******************************************************************************************

Roger. The crime scene photo of Cheri shows her face down, with her arms on her back. That is how she was found, then, most likely, and the blows were to the back of the head, not the face.


What is the "recent info" about ONS  or even EAR making the men witness the violation?  As far as I have seen, when its come up by commentors, that's been conjecture. Larry Pool has consistently said that ONS killed the men first, so he could be alone with the women.   so that they were taken out as a threat.  If that is true, then it suggests that he wasnt there to get his jollies from sticking around and psychologically tormenting the women. It means that he was there to completely dominate, to kill. 
I think the bigger thing to consider is that EAR/ONS was turned on by a couple having sex, and that was the draw, to the attack on the women.  The women were all pulled away from the men into another room that wasnt even close to the bedroom in the EAR rape attacks, and he was paranoid that they would get untied so he put  cups, dishes, glass things, etc on them, as a warning. He didnt even want to be in hearing distance to the men. He didnt want to torture them, when he could have easily done so, just by making them listen to an attack.. It was never in his motivation.  I think considering this, and that EAR is still ONS psychologically and in the motivation for his crimes, that he wanted the male out of the picture asap in the murders. Nothing in his past behavior suggests that he wanted to have the men involved in any way, in an attack. I also believe that he would not want them there due to performance anxiety. He had a hard time keeping an erection, or getting a full one, even. I think his overriding thing was that he wanted to kill, and rape was almost irrelevant at this point.  He wanted a sexual release, but it was because the violent domination, the killing, that excited him.
 So he wanted to get in, kill the man,  then rape and kill, or kill and then ejaculate over the woman, and leave quickly. Not the lingering around he did before, because that was to risky now that he was murdering.  If you look back at the EAR attacks (dont; just trust me), everything he did was to be powerful.  Murdering is the ultimate pinnacle of domination. His crimes were all about gaining the most power, dominating a woman so completely that he could take her very life. That was the true excitement for him.  This is why Pool has also used the phrase "blitz attacks" when describing the murders. I do not believe the victims were kept alive in the ONS crimes, but that he was there for a purpose, to kill and get away as quickly as possible.

I am much more receptive to most of your ideas than you probably expect.  Here, however, I would like to focus on the 50-rapes era, when EAR was just EAR.  You say, "The women were all pulled away from the men into another room that wasnt even close to the bedroom in the EAR rape attacks, and he was paranoid that they would get untied so he put cups, dishes, glass things, etc on them, as a warning. He didnt even want to be in hearing distance to the men. He didnt want to torture them, when he could have easily done so, just by making them listen to an attack.. It was never in his motivation."

When I referred to this as torture of the men, and confusingly used the word "witness," I had in mind exactly this part of his M.O.  EAR did not just kill the men, but went through all of the elaborate ligature-and-dishes steps, and he not only did this to assure that the men would comply, but also, IMO, because his most enjoyable domination of the men was in rendering them helpless and psychologically tortured by the imagination of what was certainly happening to their woman. To inflict that mental torment on the men, IMO, was his motivation. 

Did I just dream this on my own, or can someone confirm my notion that Compton's book (or some online source) reported that a man boasted in a Community Awareness Meeting about EAR that no real man would just lie there and let such things happen to his woman. The report was that EAR probably was in attendance at the meeting and subsequently targeted that man, putting him in exactly that hapless, helpless position, only several weeks later?

[portofleith]

Roger,

You are correct about the incident involving a man questioning how EAR could execute these attacks in a public meeting, and then subsequently being attacked.

I do not agree with Cerulean's assessment that he did not want to terrorize and torture the men.  EAR would frequently go back into the room where the men were tied and make taunting obnoxious remarks, knowing that the men could not react.  There was also the element for the men of knowing they were helpless to prevent what was happening to their wives and also not knowing what was happening to their children.

Your choice of words "domination" and "psychological" torture is appropriate  in describing his actions.

[debris]

Sept 15, 2013 6:23:24 GMT redding said:

To me the most interesting detail to come out of this thread is the murder weapon.  He really had a great deal of confidence in his ability to bludgeon. That was a fairly large clumsy tool to swing accurately.  I know it doesn't take any skill to bludgeon a person to death and it is a very common cause of death in violent homicides.  Having said that I find it interesting that in several of the murders he killed with a single blow.  To swing that turf plugger accurately in that dark room is impressive.  Pipe wrench, log, metal sprinkler, unwieldy turf plugger, he was very confident with this method.  This reminds me of a construction worker sinking nails.  Have you ever seen an experienced framer hit a nail?  They have incredible power and precision.  They can sink a 3" nail with one hit.  The average homeowner would probably have to hit the same nail 4 or 5 times. The speed and accuracy delivers a ton of energy to the nail head.  It is similar to a baseball swing or a golf swing. Muscle memory developed by doing the same thing over and over thousands of times.  It is true that anyone could of bludgeoned these victims. It is also true that if an experienced framer choose to hit a person in the head with something the first blow would almost certainly kill. Also to me swinging that turf plugger accurately would be tough for most people.  A framer would have the wrist and forearm strength, and the technique to do it with ease. IMO

Here is a video of a 75 year old framer sinking nails.  Check out his swings around the 2:40 mark.  Keep in mind he is hitting something that is only about a quarter inch wide, and that he is hitting full speed at the exact right angle.  If you watch the whole video...he never misses. Also note the tool belt.  : www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQWjA7u9LzM 

His swing is about three times more powerful than the average joe.  

Redding, 

I definitely think you are onto something.  

---deb 

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2013 15:10:45 GMT rogdomingo said:

I am much more receptive to most of your ideas than you probably expect.  Here, however, I would like to focus on the 50-rapes era, when EAR was just EAR.  You say, "The women were all pulled away from the men into another room that wasnt even close to the bedroom in the EAR rape attacks, and he was paranoid that they would get untied so he put cups, dishes, glass things, etc on them, as a warning. He didnt even want to be in hearing distance to the men. He didnt want to torture them, when he could have easily done so, just by making them listen to an attack.. It was never in his motivation."

When I referred to this as torture of the men, and confusingly used the word "witness," I had in mind exactly this part of his M.O.  EAR did not just kill the men, but went through all of the elaborate ligature-and-dishes steps, and he not only did this to assure that the men would comply, but also, IMO, because his most enjoyable domination of the men was in rendering them helpless and psychologically tortured by the imagination of what was certainly happening to their woman. To inflict that mental torment on the men, IMO, was his motivation. 

Did I just dream this on my own, or can someone confirm my notion that Compton's book (or some online source) reported that a man boasted in a Community Awareness Meeting about EAR that no real man would just lie there and let such things happen to his woman. The report was that EAR probably was in attendance at the meeting and subsequently targeted that man, putting him in exactly that hapless, helpless position, only several weeks later?

I feel more relieved knowing that you are not finding all this talk emotionally upsetting. If it were me, I think I might feel the same, but have unwanted dreams due to the subject matter.

If I said it wasnt in his motivation to psychologically torture the men, I meant it as in, it wasnt the  main reason behind his motivation for any of his attacks. It was a byproduct of them that he found he enjoyed.
I think that obviously what he was doing by separating the couple would produce psychological terror.  However, I believe he was there more to dominate those men than terrorize them. He was there to directly, intensely psychologically and physically torture the women and girls, and started his attacks as so.  That was his focus.
Did he find he liked hitting couples? Yes; and that points to his enjoyment of domination over the men. It made it more exciting for him, it was a bigger challenge to him in what he considered a game, and he got off on being a voyeur and watching a man & woman have sex.
  And it obviously was a big f.u. to those men.  'I can do whatever I want in your house, to your wife, to your kids. I OWN you.'

  But I think that you have to consider why he didnt do what other men who have done this before, had done, which was to directly psychologically torture the men in their attacks. In my opinion, if you want to hurt someone, if that is your focus and what you get off on, you will do it directly to them, in no ambiguous way.  And ER was dfinitely ambiguous. Look at what he did not do:  he didnt rape the women in the same room in front of the man, he definitely didnt make the man watch, he didnt do it within listening distance and make them hear it -he moved rooms away, he shut the door to the bedroom, and in only ONE victim report, of all the victim reports that were given to us in Sudden Terror (thats well over 40 reports), did he say something to a man about what he was doing outside of the bedroom, and he did not directly refer to the rape of his woman. From the book:

  "He was back in the bedroom, again checking Clay’s ties. He pulled the bed sheet over him and lined several perfume bottles along his back.
“If I hear the bottles jingle, I’ll blow your fuckin’ head off,” he threatened as he cocked the gun and pushed it against Clay’s head. “You don’t like it do you? There’s nothing you can do about it,” he taunted.
They could hear him rummaging, opening and closing cabinet doors and drawers.

The threat is directed at him being tied up and EAR totally dominating him.

I think, had he wanted to psychologically torture the men other than in a functional way ('Do this or Ill kill you , your wife, everyone in the house'), it would have progressed to that, in the EAR attacks, and from those 40 plus reports, it just did not happen. There is no direct comment to the men anywhere in the victim reports given in the book about what hes going to do to the mans woman, no direct comment to them about what he did to their woman, there is no running commentary to them about what he is doing to their woman,eg,  "Your wife is ____sexual taunt___." 
He even bantered with at least one the men while they were in the bedroom together alone and the wife had already been moved to a room far way. (He saw his uniform when he as going through his closet and asked him if he was in the service.)
He also routinely kept up the sham that he was just a robber with a lot of these men; that he was doing something OTHER than raping their women. He kept coming back to ransack the bedroom, he would come back and tell them he was making something to eat for himself or come back eating something, or say he was going to have a beer now, etc.  It was an elaborate ruse he was employing for multiple reasons, but it always struck me at how he seemed to go out of the way to keep them away and  quiet and out of the picture. Why consistently go to the trouble of all this, if what you want is the man to be psychologically tormented?  If youre not going to directly torture them with the knowledge of what youre doing, then  you would at least just be silent to them and as you say, let them stew in their imagined terror. He was there to harm the women and dominate the men.
Pool has also said that the overkill was on the women, not the men. Im assuming he means in the Smith and Harrington cases. He said that ONS wanted to remove the men from the equation, and thats what he was also doing as EAR. Dominating them, but keeping them out of his hair, and making sure that they werent a threat to what he was there to do to the women.

The ligatures and saucer& cups.  Those make an excellent punishment ( a word we know that was on his mind) for someone. Sit still and dont move or else!  But if EAR had been the Visalia Ranacker, that cup& saucer bit started out as an early warning system. It was put by the doors, so that someone coming through would hit them, he'd hear them crash, and flee.  I think it was mainly employed in the EAR attacks for this practical reason. He used it on both the men and some of the women. Did he like to see them under some stress to stay still as he dominated them and threatened to kill the household if they couldnt? Totally. But what happened when the man crashed those dishes? EAR ran back, put them back on his back, and made the same threats to kill if he heard them crash. One man crashed them off his back TWICE. And both times, EAR ran back and put them back on him and made the same hollow threats again.  He didnt even make that man pay for his crime of not listening to him. Something he made the women pay for, by brutally punching them in the face over and over. He did not punish that man in any way other than the way he did originally: through empty threats (as EAR). To me, that says that this was overall a practical measure adopted by EAR. It's first and main function was to alert him that the man might be coming unbound and/or coming to get his scrawny butt.


As for the man who was supposedly at the meeting and EAR saw him and targeted him. Nothing unusual happened in that attack, other than EAR telling the  couple to give a message to the cops to not put it in the news. If he singled this guy out, it was because it was a challenge. It wasnt because he wanted to punish that man. He wanted to dominate him.

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2013 6:23:24 GMT redding said:

To me the most interesting detail to come out of this thread is the murder weapon.  He really had a great deal of confidence in his ability to bludgeon. That was a fairly large clumsy tool to swing accurately.  I know it doesn't take any skill to bludgeon a person to death and it is a very common cause of death in violent homicides.  Having said that I find it interesting that in several of the murders he killed with a single blow.  To swing that turf plugger accurately in that dark room is impressive.  Pipe wrench, log, metal sprinkler, unwieldy turf plugger, he was very confident with this method.  This reminds me of a construction worker sinking nails.  Have you ever seen an experienced framer hit a nail?  They have incredible power and precision.  They can sink a 3" nail with one hit.  The average homeowner would probably have to hit the same nail 4 or 5 times. The speed and accuracy delivers a ton of energy to the nail head.  It is similar to a baseball swing or a golf swing. Muscle memory developed by doing the same thing over and over thousands of times.  It is true that anyone could of bludgeoned these victims. It is also true that if an experienced framer choose to hit a person in the head with something the first blow would almost certainly kill. Also to me swinging that turf plugger accurately would be tough for most people.  A framer would have the wrist and forearm strength, and the technique to do it with ease. IMO

Here is a video of a 75 year old framer sinking nails.  Check out his swings around the 2:40 mark.  Keep in mind he is hitting something that is only about a quarter inch wide, and that he is hitting full speed at the exact right angle.  If you watch the whole video...he never misses. Also note the tool belt.  : www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQWjA7u9LzM 

His swing is about three times more powerful than the average joe.  

They call it "one banging" Experienced sheetrockers can one bang sheetrock nails over their head but the old school framers were incredible. Now they use air guns for speed and because the oldtimers are mostly gone. And most of the specialists (electricians, painters, tile setters etc.) can do general construction. When things were slow in construction a lot of skilled guys came to work in my business.

[truthandsoul]

Sept 15, 2013 17:40:58 GMT f1guyus said:

Sept 15, 2013 6:23:24 GMT redding said:

To me the most interesting detail to come out of this thread is the murder weapon.  He really had a great deal of confidence in his ability to bludgeon. That was a fairly large clumsy tool to swing accurately.  I know it doesn't take any skill to bludgeon a person to death and it is a very common cause of death in violent homicides.  Having said that I find it interesting that in several of the murders he killed with a single blow.  To swing that turf plugger accurately in that dark room is impressive.  Pipe wrench, log, metal sprinkler, unwieldy turf plugger, he was very confident with this method.  This reminds me of a construction worker sinking nails.  Have you ever seen an experienced framer hit a nail?  They have incredible power and precision.  They can sink a 3" nail with one hit.  The average homeowner would probably have to hit the same nail 4 or 5 times. The speed and accuracy delivers a ton of energy to the nail head.  It is similar to a baseball swing or a golf swing. Muscle memory developed by doing the same thing over and over thousands of times.  It is true that anyone could of bludgeoned these victims. It is also true that if an experienced framer choose to hit a person in the head with something the first blow would almost certainly kill. Also to me swinging that turf plugger accurately would be tough for most people.  A framer would have the wrist and forearm strength, and the technique to do it with ease. IMO

Here is a video of a 75 year old framer sinking nails.  Check out his swings around the 2:40 mark.  Keep in mind he is hitting something that is only about a quarter inch wide, and that he is hitting full speed at the exact right angle.  If you watch the whole video...he never misses. Also note the tool belt.  : www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQWjA7u9LzM 

His swing is about three times more powerful than the average joe.  

They call it "one banging" Experienced sheetrockers can one bang sheetrock nails over their head but the old school framers were incredible. Now they use air guns for speed and because the oldtimers are mostly gone. And most of the specialists (electricians, painters, tile setters etc.) can do general construction. When things were slow in construction a lot of skilled guys came to work in my business.

Yes, that's a good point! It is amazing to watch them. My Father-in-law is a contractor, and he can sink a 3 inch nail in with a single blow. I've practiced, but not something you pickup in a few hours. Also, his forearm strength is amazing. He's also a good golfer and tennis player, I suppose partially, as a result. For the golf, i see it as swinging, with power and precision, at a small object. The tennis is good control and forearm endurance.

[lepke]

Sept 15, 2013 18:00:49 GMT truthandsoul said:

Sept 15, 2013 17:40:58 GMT f1guyus said:

They call it "one banging" Experienced sheetrockers can one bang sheetrock nails over their head but the old school framers were incredible. Now they use air guns for speed and because the oldtimers are mostly gone. And most of the specialists (electricians, painters, tile setters etc.) can do general construction. When things were slow in construction a lot of skilled guys came to work in my business.

Yes, that's a good point! It is amazing to watch them. My Father-in-law is a contractor, and he can sink a 3 inch nail in with a single blow. I've practiced, but not something you pickup in a few hours. Also, his forearm strength is amazing. He's also a good golfer and tennis player, I suppose partially, as a result. For the golf, i see it as swinging, with power and precision, at a small object. The tennis is good control and forearm endurance.

Your father-in-law sounds like a scary guy - maybe he should enter UFC