Professor Claude Snelling and Beth Snelling Sept 11, 1975

[zforce]

Apr 21, 2014 17:20:00 GMT Brad said:

Apr 21, 2014 17:11:29 GMT zforce said:

Certainly I think the driver/bike guy scenario you mention is one we've all went to when accepting every witness account. It's tough though because if you try and fit every witness statement into the theory it's clear some stuff fits and some stuff doesn't.

It's clear to me that the first break in is related in proximity, time, and physical evidence left behind. If anything it's the actions of the homeowner that are odd. Never in his statement does he mention the screeching car or the rest of the commotion in the neighborhood that by most accounts he should have heard if he didnt return to bed until 2:31am.

A couple notes....the couple living there didnt have any teenaged children.

Also, upon discovery of the bike, he tells the detective that "it wasn't there the night before". Unclear if he means when he did his inspection after the intruder OR much earlier in the evening of 9/10.

It would be interesting to know if the intruder somehow thought that the house on Redwood was empty for some reason. There is a bit of interest in the theory that VR (and EAR, of course, as well) chose empty homes to hole up in. I point to the empty house near the McGowen shooting as an example. Hypothetically, if he somehow thought that the Redwood home was empty, perhaps he was considering either taking Beth there to commit further crimes or hiding out there after committing the crimes on Whitney. Breaking in there ahead of time would allow him to set up easy entry (without having to take the time break in right after the crime under a lot of stress or possibly having to restrain Beth while he breaks in).

I agree that the homeowners reaction is completely bizarre and out of the realm of what I personally would have done that night. In my opinion, it is reasonably suspicious behavior.

Glad to have you a part of this discussion, Brad. Largely because you've been hitting on previously discussed theories almost like a checklist.

We initially theorized he may have thought the homeowners were out of town. This theory would have made a lot of sense had he aborted his plan to abduct Beth, but even after having possibly arrived on a bike, still goes through with it.

What's crazy is that for all he knows the homeowner is going to call the cops to the neighborhood. He has every incentive to flee after the first incident, but doesn't.

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2014 17:32:52 GMT zforce said:

Apr 21, 2014 17:20:00 GMT Brad said:

It would be interesting to know if the intruder somehow thought that the house on Redwood was empty for some reason. There is a bit of interest in the theory that VR (and EAR, of course, as well) chose empty homes to hole up in. I point to the empty house near the McGowen shooting as an example. Hypothetically, if he somehow thought that the Redwood home was empty, perhaps he was considering either taking Beth there to commit further crimes or hiding out there after committing the crimes on Whitney. Breaking in there ahead of time would allow him to set up easy entry (without having to take the time break in right after the crime under a lot of stress or possibly having to restrain Beth while he breaks in).

I agree that the homeowners reaction is completely bizarre and out of the realm of what I personally would have done that night. In my opinion, it is reasonably suspicious behavior.

Glad to have you a part of this discussion, Brad. Largely because you've been hitting on previously discussed theories almost like a checklist.

We initially theorized he may have thought the homeowners were out of town. This theory would have made a lot of sense had he aborted his plan to abduct Beth, but even after having possibly arrived on a bike, still goes through with it.

What's crazy is that for all he knows the homeowner is going to call the cops to the neighborhood. He has every incentive to flee after the first incident, but doesn't.

It could be that a couple or several of the creeps operating in the area were doing their crimes that night and that the house on Redwood was hit by someone unrelated to the guy who tried to abduct Beth Snelling and killed her dad.

[zforce]

Apr 21, 2014 17:46:21 GMT @privatecitizen said:

Apr 21, 2014 17:32:52 GMT zforce said:

Glad to have you a part of this discussion, Brad. Largely because you've been hitting on previously discussed theories almost like a checklist.

We initially theorized he may have thought the homeowners were out of town. This theory would have made a lot of sense had he aborted his plan to abduct Beth, but even after having possibly arrived on a bike, still goes through with it.

What's crazy is that for all he knows the homeowner is going to call the cops to the neighborhood. He has every incentive to flee after the first incident, but doesn't.

It could be that a couple or several of the creeps operating in the area were doing their crimes that night and that the house on Redwood was hit by someone unrelated to the guy who tried to abduct Beth Snelling and killed her dad.

Except that the bike was stolen from near Mt. Whitney and VR was the only one of those guys who stole bikes as transport to/from his crimes, and of those guys, VR was the only one known to operate in the Snelling neighborhood.

It'd be highly coincidental that two guys independent of each other decide to essentially start doing home invasion style robberies on the same night, in the same neighborhood, at the same time.

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2014 19:29:12 GMT zforce said:

Apr 21, 2014 17:46:21 GMT @privatecitizen said:

It could be that a couple or several of the creeps operating in the area were doing their crimes that night and that the house on Redwood was hit by someone unrelated to the guy who tried to abduct Beth Snelling and killed her dad.

Except that the bike was stolen from near Mt. Whitney and VR was the only one of those guys who stole bikes as transport to/from his crimes, and of those guys, VR was the only one known to operate in the Snelling neighborhood.

It'd be highly coincidental that two guys independent of each other decide to essentially start doing home invasion style robberies on the same night, in the same neighborhood, at the same time.

True, it's doubtful that 2 working independently would decide to do home invasions on the same night, in the same neighborhood, and same time.

There was more than one messing around in the Snelling's neighborhood. I'm wondering if the bike was in the bushes earlier and the guy on Redwood just didn't notice it.

[zforce]

Apr 22, 2014 15:41:18 GMT @privatecitizen said:

Apr 21, 2014 19:29:12 GMT zforce said:

Except that the bike was stolen from near Mt. Whitney and VR was the only one of those guys who stole bikes as transport to/from his crimes, and of those guys, VR was the only one known to operate in the Snelling neighborhood.

It'd be highly coincidental that two guys independent of each other decide to essentially start doing home invasion style robberies on the same night, in the same neighborhood, at the same time.

True, it's doubtful that 2 working independently would decide to doing home invasions on the same night, in the same neighborhood, and same time.

There was more than one messing around in the Snelling's neighborhood. I'm wondering if the bike was in the bushes earlier and the guy on Redwood just didn't notice it.

The report actually mentions the homeowner told LE that the bike "wasn't there earlier", but it's unclear if he means on the evening of 9/10 or after he chased away the intruder. The report also implies that the bike was left out in the open in the front yard.

Several different scenarios arise, depending on whether you believe 1 or more people are working the neighborhood that night. Going on over two years at this point, the reports describe one man as VR and I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly taken on an accomplice to do independent home invasions. Wouldn't they work together instead of rolling with a "you go here, I'll go there" mentality? It's tough to wrap my head around especially if there's a kidnapping plan involved.

Then again, things admittedly look a lot weirder for a one suspect theory when the events of the early morning hours of 9/11/75 are all factored together.

[Brad]

Apr 22, 2014 16:09:14 GMT zforce said:

Apr 22, 2014 15:41:18 GMT @privatecitizen said:

True, it's doubtful that 2 working independently would decide to doing home invasions on the same night, in the same neighborhood, and same time.

There was more than one messing around in the Snelling's neighborhood. I'm wondering if the bike was in the bushes earlier and the guy on Redwood just didn't notice it.

The report actually mentions the homeowner told LE that the bike "wasn't there earlier", but it's unclear if he means on the evening of 9/10 or after he chased away the intruder. The report also implies that the bike was left out in the open in the front yard.

Several different scenarios arise, depending on whether you believe 1 or more people are working the neighborhood that night. Going on over two years at this point, the reports describe one man as VR and I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly taken on an accomplice to do independent home invasions. Wouldn't they work together instead of rolling with a "you go here, I'll go there" mentality? It's tough to wrap my head around especially if there's a kidnapping plan involved.

Then again, things admittedly look a lot weirder for a one suspect theory when the events of the early morning hours of 9/11/75 are all factored together.

Everything you say is dead on reasonable and well thought out. I just believe that "working with a partner" did not necessarily mean that they were going to the same places at the same times. The "scout" theory works well to explain some of this craziness, if one was working the agenda ahead of time, casing, sizing up "hits" and reporting back by radio or prearranged meeting up of some sort. While the second party moves into the prescreened crime area to strike, the first party moves ahead and screens the future hits.

It's just a theory, but it does provide an alternate take on the 2 man team.

[Deleted]

The more I read about the VR crimes, the more it sounds like one dominant VR with a subordinate (family member, relative or friend) accomplice. The subordinate accomplice may have enjoyed the "thrill" of scouting, peeping, prowling - but did not intend to escalate to the level of attempted kidnapping or shooting/killing witnesses and LE. Perhaps those escalations finally forced the subordinate accomplice to say, "I'm done. You are too much of a nutcase for me."

It also sounds like there were other random ransackers operating at the time, from what some of the Visalia experts have mentioned.  Was Visalia a dumping ground for releases from the California Youth Authority?

[armchair]

Apr 22, 2014 17:01:36 GMT slumbergirl said:

The more I read about the VR crimes, the more it sounds like one dominant VR with a subordinate (family member, relative or friend) accomplice. The subordinate accomplice may have enjoyed the "thrill" of scouting, peeping, prowling - but did not intend to escalate to the level of attempted kidnapping or shooting/killing witnesses and LE. Perhaps those escalations finally forced the subordinate accomplice to say, "I'm done. You are too much of a nutcase for me."

It also sounds like there were other random ransackers operating at the time, from what some of the Visalia experts have mentioned.  Was Visalia a dumping ground for releases from the California Youth Authority?

I'm reading  The Cases That Haunt Us by John Douglas (former FBI profiler) where he takes a behavioral profiling approach to infamous cases. In the Zodiac Killer chapter, there's a part where Douglas discusses what's going on in the killer's mind while he taunts the police via his letters to the newspapers. In passing, the author remarks that the Zodiac Killer might've confided in a friend (of lower intelligence or power dynamic) because the Zodiac was frustrated by the lack of respect.

[Deleted]

Apr 22, 2014 16:09:14 GMT zforce said:

Apr 22, 2014 15:41:18 GMT @privatecitizen said:

True, it's doubtful that 2 working independently would decide to doing home invasions on the same night, in the same neighborhood, and same time.

There was more than one messing around in the Snelling's neighborhood. I'm wondering if the bike was in the bushes earlier and the guy on Redwood just didn't notice it.

The report actually mentions the homeowner told LE that the bike "wasn't there earlier", but it's unclear if he means on the evening of 9/10 or after he chased away the intruder. The report also implies that the bike was left out in the open in the front yard.

Several different scenarios arise, depending on whether you believe 1 or more people are working the neighborhood that night. Going on over two years at this point, the reports describe one man as VR and I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly taken on an accomplice to do independent home invasions. Wouldn't they work together instead of rolling with a "you go here, I'll go there" mentality? It's tough to wrap my head around especially if there's a kidnapping plan involved.

Then again, things admittedly look a lot weirder for a one suspect theory when the events of the early morning hours of 9/11/75 are all factored together.

Right, the report mentions it, but it's unclear and it doesn't mean the person writing the report didn't misunderstand what was said - we've seen that happen before with some of the reports. I think many of us got stuck on those reports and come to find out, there was much more to all of it. They don't tell about the LE who disagreed with which burglary/ransacking was done by whom and don't describe all of the burglaries, prowlings, and peepings that were happening, i.e., the Snelling's different prowlers.

[zforce]

Apr 23, 2014 1:52:39 GMT @privatecitizen said:

Apr 22, 2014 16:09:14 GMT zforce said:

The report actually mentions the homeowner told LE that the bike "wasn't there earlier", but it's unclear if he means on the evening of 9/10 or after he chased away the intruder. The report also implies that the bike was left out in the open in the front yard.

Several different scenarios arise, depending on whether you believe 1 or more people are working the neighborhood that night. Going on over two years at this point, the reports describe one man as VR and I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly taken on an accomplice to do independent home invasions. Wouldn't they work together instead of rolling with a "you go here, I'll go there" mentality? It's tough to wrap my head around especially if there's a kidnapping plan involved.

Then again, things admittedly look a lot weirder for a one suspect theory when the events of the early morning hours of 9/11/75 are all factored together.

Right, the report mentions it, but it's unclear and it doesn't mean the person writing the report didn't misunderstand what was said - we've seen that happen before with some of the reports. I think many of us got stuck on those reports and come to find out, there was much more to all of it. They don't tell about the LE who disagreed with which burglary/ransacking was done by whom and don't describe all of the burglaries, prowlings, and peepings that were happening, i.e., the Snelling's different prowlers.

Absolutely....but we have what we have. The most glaring observation is that there wasn't a more in depth follow up to the neighbor's initial statement. His home should have been considered just as much a part of the crime scene as the Snelling home.

[threetwozero]

What is very interesting to me is snellingstudents post. Two different prowlers chased off by Mr Snelling prior to his death. This is something that I think we need to discuss. What are the odds of that happening in a town the size of Visalia. I could see it happening if for instance a HS kid says, hey Beth has her bedroom blinds open and tells that to his friends.... Maybe then I could see it happening. One older and one younger prowler, that is just very strange to me. What do you guys think?

[zforce]

Apr 23, 2014 23:33:09 GMT threetwozero said:

What is very interesting to me is snellingstudents post. Two different prowlers chased off by Mr Snelling prior to his death. This is something that I think we need to discuss. What are the odds of that happening in a town the size of Visalia. I could see it happening if for instance a HS kid says, hey Beth has her bedroom blinds open and tells that to his friends.... Maybe then I could see it happening. One older and one younger prowler, that is just very strange to me. What do you guys think?

I'm actually really glad we're finally discussing a lot of these elements, as the night in question is one of my biggest hang ups.

The home in question on Redwood was on the west side of the street and has an apartment complex behind it. The apartment complex faces County Center and the Kmart shopping center. POE on the morning of 9/11/75 was the front door of this home though.

The Snelling's lived on the east side of Whitney and POE was a rear window and door to the home on 9/11/75.

Now if the first homeowner chases away an intruder at 2:10am and police arrive at the Snelling home at 2:26am that leaves a window of less than 16 minutes for both crimes to have occurred. It's actually closer to 10-12 minutes if the times listed are accurate.

This is all possible for one man to accomplish provided A) he cut over from Redwood to Whitney by scaling fences, which we certainly know he was capable of doing, and B) immediately ran to the Snelling home and broke in. We know he arrived at the first home via the stolen girl's bicycle that he left behind, so I believe he wouldn't have used surface streets in the initial escape, otherwise why not just ride away on the bike.

What doesn't make sense to me is that he's startled enough to leave the bike behind when fleeing, and he has no idea that the first homeowner isn't already calling the cops, yet he decides to run one street over to the east and commit a burglary/kidnapping. This is all extremely brazen and unorganized behavior for one man as VR pretty much had only entered homes when people were away in the past.

Then you have the neighbor on Whitney who heard a car peel out and leave the neighborhood via Whitney/County Center and get on to Highway 198. If you Google map the neighborhood today, things look a lot different. Note how the north end of Whitney loops back around into Redwood. In those days Whitney continued west to County Center and there were more homes along the street. This was where that neighbor lived at the time, and the specifity of the statement leads me to believe this person was able to know the traffic flow of the area by sound. A side note...Google maps improperly labels this portion of the street as being Noble Ave today. It's still Whitney. Noble is actually the street immediately to the north that runs parralel to 198.

Even if you have two guys working together and one guy is waiting outside the first home in a car, the Snelling attack makes no sense because they've been made at the first home and logically two people are going to confer that the police are on the way and they need to get out of the area...IMO.

What we're left with is either a single unorganized offender, two offenders working together yet independently of each other, or two offenders working the same neighborhood at the same time and completely unaware of each other.

[Drifter]

What we're left with is either a single unorganized offender, two offenders working together yet independently of each other, or two offenders working the same neighborhood at the same time and completely unaware of each other.

Interesting analysis.

Could the EAR (at that time in Visalia) have been ... unorganized?
Of your three scenarios the second one sounds the most plausible.

On the other hand, maybe the police reports are incorrect in some way.

Drifter

[madatnite]

Another plausible scenario would be both attacked relatively at the same time and when done to meet at the kmart/ colony kitchen. One got busted so he went to the colony kitchen and the second perp did not know he got busted and continued with the Snelling incident and when that went bad he meet the other perp at colony kitchen and met up there .... got in the truck and both took off scared.- mad

[tiki]

I've been told by neighbors of the Snellings that directly across the street from the Snellings was a travel trailer parked in a driveway. The police found on top of it ( a few days after the murder ) the screen from Beths window and marks in the dust of a body . It seems to me that VR was spying from the roof of trailer that night and/or hid there after the murder. That means VR spent alot more time that night near the Snellings . It was also reported that he took time that night to disable the Snelling air conditioner.