Post by bebe1 on Oct 22, 2016 4:54:09 GMT
Nick, thanks for sticking up for me I appreciate that (sorry for not replying I was sleeping) I purposefully did not really defend myself and allowed Mitchell to argue his points because this is a thread about rape, not murder, and I didnt want to derail your thread with long and rambling answers about the DSM, FBI classification manuals and etc. However, it seems like the thread has derailed.
I would like to point out that I did not base my assessment of EAR/ONS off of binding victims and mentioned it nowhere in my posts. Im not obtuse enough to believe that binding=BDSM=sexual sadist. This is not a criminal minds episode! Lol.
This is just one part of a very long response as to why I believe that ONS is (at least in part) a sexual sadist.
Of the types if SK motivations, we have 7 choices with sub categories, and SKs can overlap, just as with rapes. Those types are visionary, missionary, hedontistic, lust, thrill, profit, thrill, and power and control.
Lets go ahead and say ONS is not a visionary (hes not psychotic in the sense hes hearing voices). He's not missionary that we know of (hes not trying to rid the world of a specific group I dont think, though its surely possible.)
Hedontistic (certainly possible), lust (very doubtful), thrill ( its not likely. The attacks are usually quick and lack a sexual component), profit (he does get profit from his rapes and murders, but it isnt his focus, so i'd say no) or power and control (rape is a form of domination over the victims. Not ONLY in a bondage sense, but to assert pyschological control.)
Of these types, I believe we could for sure rule out visionary,missionary, thrill, lust, profit (comfort), thus leaving us with hedontistic or power and control.
Hedontistic SK's fall into 3 categories. Lust, thrill, comfort, or all or some of them. As an example, Israel Keyes is a Hedontistic thrill killer who also would fall into the comfort (profit) category. They derive pleasure from killing and search for the thrill of it. They sometimes do and sometimes do not stalk their victims, however rape is usually not part of their attacks. (Although in Keyes case it was, so there are certainly exceptions). The victims are simply a means to an end. The only reason for these type of killers to rape victims would be if they were also falling into the sub category of lust killing. Ok, lets just make bullet points so its easier.
Hedontistic thrill killer:
~victims are usually strangers
~attacker gets off on the thrill of killing
~attacks are usually quick and lack a sexual component (although it can)
~ attacks are usually swift.
To me, this does not fit with EAR/ONS. To say that the rapes seem an after thought is missing the plot a bit. EAR committed 50+ rapes before his murders. If he couldnt commit the rape, he ran away. He telephoned victims both before and after rapes to instill terror. Stating that the phone calls were "juvenille" and not important is also simplistic. When looking at murderers you need to examine all of the behaviours as a whole, and not just the ones which fit the narrative that you wish to employ. So in regards to EAR/ONS:
~victims are usually strangers (true of EAR)
~ attacker gets off on the thrill of killing (this is a personal feeling, so it's hard to comment on that.)
~ attacks are usually quick and lack a sexual component (we dont know how long he was in the house, but if we use the rapes as a guideline, the attacks were certainly not quick. 2+ hours is quite a long time to spend with a victim and he did so in many attacks. I dont believe EAR fits the profile of a lust killer, and the attacks had a sexual component, so that doesnt really fit.)
~ attacks are usually swift (yes, it seems ONS killed quickly.)
Lets continue further. Mitchell said something to the affect of any rape being terrifying to victims, and I certainly do agree. However, I doubt most rapists call victims to illict fear, and stay inside victims homes for hours at a time and etc. Most rapists are known to their victims. Of course any rape is terrifying, but I think EAR/ONS took it to a different level.
Anyway, a power/control offender is very similar to a hedontistic killer, however the main difference is they do rape, for reasons of power and control. The Hedontistic killer rapes for lust, whereas the power and control killer rapes to assert his dominance and control of victims. I'll just bullet point it:
~ similar to hedontistic killer, but includes sexual element
~rapes for reasons of asserting power over victims
~ stalk victims
~ usually intelligent
Ok and to compare with EAR/ONS:
~similar to hedontistic killer, but includes a sexual element (yes, this is true)
~ rapes for reasons of asserting power (we cant know this, its a personal motivation. I'd like to assert that from the phone calld and the length of time and etc he was in the home, we can, but we simply cant know his motivations fully)
~stalks victims at length (yes we know he did that)
This information is important. Once we find the motivations of murderers, we can place them into categories based on those motivations.
I'm inclined to believe that EAR/ONS is not a thrill seeking killer because there isnt a sexual aspect. Hedontistic killers are very similar to thrill killers, but there can be a sexual aspect, which is why I mentioned it.
What I really want to make clear is that sadism is not ALWAYS shown physically. If youre referring to masochoism, then I can agree that that is the physical manifestation of sadism. The terms are not interchangeable.
And the point I was REALLY trying to get at was:
WHY WAS KEITH HARRINGTON THE ONLY MAN WHO WAS NOT SHOT?
Lol, sorry for the caps and the long post. I'm happy to debate with anyone about the topic though.
I would like to point out that I did not base my assessment of EAR/ONS off of binding victims and mentioned it nowhere in my posts. Im not obtuse enough to believe that binding=BDSM=sexual sadist. This is not a criminal minds episode! Lol.
This is just one part of a very long response as to why I believe that ONS is (at least in part) a sexual sadist.
Of the types if SK motivations, we have 7 choices with sub categories, and SKs can overlap, just as with rapes. Those types are visionary, missionary, hedontistic, lust, thrill, profit, thrill, and power and control.
Lets go ahead and say ONS is not a visionary (hes not psychotic in the sense hes hearing voices). He's not missionary that we know of (hes not trying to rid the world of a specific group I dont think, though its surely possible.)
Hedontistic (certainly possible), lust (very doubtful), thrill ( its not likely. The attacks are usually quick and lack a sexual component), profit (he does get profit from his rapes and murders, but it isnt his focus, so i'd say no) or power and control (rape is a form of domination over the victims. Not ONLY in a bondage sense, but to assert pyschological control.)
Of these types, I believe we could for sure rule out visionary,missionary, thrill, lust, profit (comfort), thus leaving us with hedontistic or power and control.
Hedontistic SK's fall into 3 categories. Lust, thrill, comfort, or all or some of them. As an example, Israel Keyes is a Hedontistic thrill killer who also would fall into the comfort (profit) category. They derive pleasure from killing and search for the thrill of it. They sometimes do and sometimes do not stalk their victims, however rape is usually not part of their attacks. (Although in Keyes case it was, so there are certainly exceptions). The victims are simply a means to an end. The only reason for these type of killers to rape victims would be if they were also falling into the sub category of lust killing. Ok, lets just make bullet points so its easier.
Hedontistic thrill killer:
~victims are usually strangers
~attacker gets off on the thrill of killing
~attacks are usually quick and lack a sexual component (although it can)
~ attacks are usually swift.
To me, this does not fit with EAR/ONS. To say that the rapes seem an after thought is missing the plot a bit. EAR committed 50+ rapes before his murders. If he couldnt commit the rape, he ran away. He telephoned victims both before and after rapes to instill terror. Stating that the phone calls were "juvenille" and not important is also simplistic. When looking at murderers you need to examine all of the behaviours as a whole, and not just the ones which fit the narrative that you wish to employ. So in regards to EAR/ONS:
~victims are usually strangers (true of EAR)
~ attacker gets off on the thrill of killing (this is a personal feeling, so it's hard to comment on that.)
~ attacks are usually quick and lack a sexual component (we dont know how long he was in the house, but if we use the rapes as a guideline, the attacks were certainly not quick. 2+ hours is quite a long time to spend with a victim and he did so in many attacks. I dont believe EAR fits the profile of a lust killer, and the attacks had a sexual component, so that doesnt really fit.)
~ attacks are usually swift (yes, it seems ONS killed quickly.)
Lets continue further. Mitchell said something to the affect of any rape being terrifying to victims, and I certainly do agree. However, I doubt most rapists call victims to illict fear, and stay inside victims homes for hours at a time and etc. Most rapists are known to their victims. Of course any rape is terrifying, but I think EAR/ONS took it to a different level.
Anyway, a power/control offender is very similar to a hedontistic killer, however the main difference is they do rape, for reasons of power and control. The Hedontistic killer rapes for lust, whereas the power and control killer rapes to assert his dominance and control of victims. I'll just bullet point it:
~ similar to hedontistic killer, but includes sexual element
~rapes for reasons of asserting power over victims
~ stalk victims
~ usually intelligent
Ok and to compare with EAR/ONS:
~similar to hedontistic killer, but includes a sexual element (yes, this is true)
~ rapes for reasons of asserting power (we cant know this, its a personal motivation. I'd like to assert that from the phone calld and the length of time and etc he was in the home, we can, but we simply cant know his motivations fully)
~stalks victims at length (yes we know he did that)
This information is important. Once we find the motivations of murderers, we can place them into categories based on those motivations.
I'm inclined to believe that EAR/ONS is not a thrill seeking killer because there isnt a sexual aspect. Hedontistic killers are very similar to thrill killers, but there can be a sexual aspect, which is why I mentioned it.
What I really want to make clear is that sadism is not ALWAYS shown physically. If youre referring to masochoism, then I can agree that that is the physical manifestation of sadism. The terms are not interchangeable.
And the point I was REALLY trying to get at was:
WHY WAS KEITH HARRINGTON THE ONLY MAN WHO WAS NOT SHOT?
Lol, sorry for the caps and the long post. I'm happy to debate with anyone about the topic though.