A Word of Caution

[Drifter]

Jan 5, 2014 16:28:16 GMT @playinem121 said:

When police investigators are handed a murder the last thing they start off suspecting is that it was committed by an offender unknown to the victim. The major reason for that is that the overwhelming number of homicides involve perpetrators who are known to the victim...some type of relationship exists between the offender and victim. So an investigation proceeds with investigators working in concentric circles that radiate outward from their victim. In the first circle is the victim's spouse or significant other. The next circle is a bit larger and might include family members. Then a still larger circle perhaps consisting of close friends. All the while the clock is ticking. The case is cooling rapidly and the cops are sweating because as they progress outward from circle to ever larger circle and work through love interests, family members, close friends, co-workers, other friends, neighbors and acquaintances they realize that with each circle...each grouping of persons and the increasing distance from the victim that they represent, the likelihood of solving the case becomes more remote.

With respect to these cases LE in different jurisdictions not only were put behind the investigative 8ball so to speak just by virtue of the difficulties presented by finding no apparent connection between any victim and any potential suspect they also lost precious time by failing to work together until the investigation was many years cold. Eye witnesses can pose tremendous difficulty for police and prosecutors when events are relatively fresh in their minds. Imagine now as some of these investigations began to push the forty year mark.

I really think that there may have been some LE contact at some point in the investigation with this guy. If the investigation was conducted properly (and I...most of us here really have no way of knowing that) even the most minor of contacts and encounters related to these investigations should have been documented and saved. Maybe it is in a patrol log. Maybe its on an FI (field interview) card or a formal interview report. What about the "lotion man"? Or the "kitten man"? Others who passed through roadblocks set up in the immediate aftermath of some EAR home invasion rapes? There has to be (at least I hope there is) reams of information collected by the various investigative jurisdictions over the multiple decades that the investigations have spanned. Perhaps the time has arrived when once and for all someone somewhere decides that it is finally time for all of the information that was collected and hopefully has been saved, be organized and reviewed. Maybe that could be done while the "task force" waits for a witness to come forward after all these many years to hand them the VR/EAR/ONS/GSK. If LE can't make the effort...if they can't spare the manpower...I am willing to wager that with the impressive collective intellect assembled on this board a group of volunteers could likely organize and review the evidence, information and assorted materials and at the very least come up with the same dead end LE has arrived at or, possibly make some real appreciable headway. I realize that LE is underfunded and overcommitted. I also have the feeling that a lot of time and opportunity have been swept from the beach because nobody had the time, the manpower (or womanpower) or the money. My sense though is that what is being done is too little too late. Meanwhile these cases get older and colder with the passing of each day. Just saying.

playenim:

Nicely written and articulately expressed.  But I must disagree.

You seem to have a lot of faith in LE.

There are many examples of serial killers who have had no connections to their victims.  Yet all these serial killers were caught, as posters here continually remind us.  So how is it that those killers were caught, but the ONS was not?  Why the difference?

How is it that in Sac, no suspects were ever identified, after all those rape attacks?

Task force?  What task force?  A few people here continue to advertise some task force.  But all we have is their talk.  Where is the evidence of a task force?

Again, your main assumption is that LE tried, and is still trying, to catch this guy.

Show me some hard evidence that that is true.

Further, you intimate that posters here would likely come to the same dead end as LE, if given the information that LE possesses.  I seriously doubt that.

Drifter

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 22:44:47 GMT Drifter said:

Jan 5, 2014 16:28:16 GMT @playinem121 said:

When police investigators are handed a murder the last thing they start off suspecting is that it was committed by an offender unknown to the victim. The major reason for that is that the overwhelming number of homicides involve perpetrators who are known to the victim...some type of relationship exists between the offender and victim. So an investigation proceeds with investigators working in concentric circles that radiate outward from their victim. In the first circle is the victim's spouse or significant other. The next circle is a bit larger and might include family members. Then a still larger circle perhaps consisting of close friends. All the while the clock is ticking. The case is cooling rapidly and the cops are sweating because as they progress outward from circle to ever larger circle and work through love interests, family members, close friends, co-workers, other friends, neighbors and acquaintances they realize that with each circle...each grouping of persons and the increasing distance from the victim that they represent, the likelihood of solving the case becomes more remote.

With respect to these cases LE in different jurisdictions not only were put behind the investigative 8ball so to speak just by virtue of the difficulties presented by finding no apparent connection between any victim and any potential suspect they also lost precious time by failing to work together until the investigation was many years cold. Eye witnesses can pose tremendous difficulty for police and prosecutors when events are relatively fresh in their minds. Imagine now as some of these investigations began to push the forty year mark.

I really think that there may have been some LE contact at some point in the investigation with this guy. If the investigation was conducted properly (and I...most of us here really have no way of knowing that) even the most minor of contacts and encounters related to these investigations should have been documented and saved. Maybe it is in a patrol log. Maybe its on an FI (field interview) card or a formal interview report. What about the "lotion man"? Or the "kitten man"? Others who passed through roadblocks set up in the immediate aftermath of some EAR home invasion rapes? There has to be (at least I hope there is) reams of information collected by the various investigative jurisdictions over the multiple decades that the investigations have spanned. Perhaps the time has arrived when once and for all someone somewhere decides that it is finally time for all of the information that was collected and hopefully has been saved, be organized and reviewed. Maybe that could be done while the "task force" waits for a witness to come forward after all these many years to hand them the VR/EAR/ONS/GSK. If LE can't make the effort...if they can't spare the manpower...I am willing to wager that with the impressive collective intellect assembled on this board a group of volunteers could likely organize and review the evidence, information and assorted materials and at the very least come up with the same dead end LE has arrived at or, possibly make some real appreciable headway. I realize that LE is underfunded and overcommitted. I also have the feeling that a lot of time and opportunity have been swept from the beach because nobody had the time, the manpower (or womanpower) or the money. My sense though is that what is being done is too little too late. Meanwhile these cases get older and colder with the passing of each day. Just saying.

playenim:

Nicely written and articulately expressed.  But I must disagree.

You seem to have a lot of faith in LE.

There are many examples of serial killers who have had no connections to their victims.  Yet all these serial killers were caught, as posters here continually remind us.  So how is it that those killers were caught, but the ONS was not?  Why the difference?

How is it that in Sac, no suspects were ever identified, after all those rape attacks?

Task force?  What task force?  A few people here continue to advertise some task force.  But all we have is their talk.  Where is the evidence of a task force?

Again, your main assumption is that LE tried, and is still trying, to catch this guy.

Show me some hard evidence that that is true.

Further, you intimate that posters here would likely come to the same dead end as LE, if given the information that LE possesses.  I seriously doubt that.

Drifter

Drifter I apologize apparently I wasn't clear enough in the post above. You and I are in agreement for the most part. While I do assume (and only that) that LE did put forth an effort to catch this guy. I don't think much of that effort. I think one of the first things a group of "civilian amateurs" would find in going through what is left of the evidence, information and materials related to the VR/EAR/ONS crimes is that some and maybe much of it is missing, has been lost, discarded or perhaps was never saved or even collected in the first place. Notice my quotes around the term "task force" I think the task force is a joke. I absolutely believe that this should have and most likely did come to LE's attention during the early portion of his career. I also believe that a group of between six and twelve members of this board could be formed and if provided with complete access to whatever evidence, information and materials related to the investigations of the VR/EAR/ONS crimes that group could under no circumstance do worse than LE did and, I believe it is probable they would do much better. I believe they would make significant progress in the investigation. Finally I believe that if you read my initial post again you will see that it was misinterpreted and for all intents and purposes you and I are in agreement on these matters. As we usually are hopefully.

[Drifter]

Hey there playenim:

You certainly do not need to apologize. Almost all reasonable POVs are valid; and mine is not necessarily superior to any differing POV. Differing POVs and opinions are the rationale for the forum.

Re: a civilian amateur attempt, one of the first things I would want to know is why some of the "evidence, information and materials" is missing, lost, or discarded, especially in Sacramento. I can understand LE's difficulty in southern California. I cannot understand it in Sac, where this guy should have been caught.

Based on evidence already available, some posters here have already formed hypotheses about who this guy is. And for these posters, research of undisclosed LE info would be akin to confirming posters' suspicions. In other words, some posters here are already far along in their own investigation, despite LE's attempts at obfuscation.

Drifter

[guessting]

Jan 5, 2014 23:33:02 GMT @playinem121 said:

Jan 5, 2014 22:44:47 GMT Drifter said:

playenim:

Nicely written and articulately expressed.  But I must disagree.

You seem to have a lot of faith in LE.

There are many examples of serial killers who have had no connections to their victims.  Yet all these serial killers were caught, as posters here continually remind us.  So how is it that those killers were caught, but the ONS was not?  Why the difference?

How is it that in Sac, no suspects were ever identified, after all those rape attacks?

Task force?  What task force?  A few people here continue to advertise some task force.  But all we have is their talk.  Where is the evidence of a task force?

Again, your main assumption is that LE tried, and is still trying, to catch this guy.

Show me some hard evidence that that is true.

Further, you intimate that posters here would likely come to the same dead end as LE, if given the information that LE possesses.  I seriously doubt that.

Drifter

Drifter I apologize apparently I wasn't clear enough in the post above. You and I are in agreement for the most part. While I do assume (and only that) that LE did put forth an effort to catch this guy. I don't think much of that effort. I think one of the first things a group of "civilian amateurs" would find in going through what is left of the evidence, information and materials related to the VR/EAR/ONS crimes is that some and maybe much of it is missing, has been lost, discarded or perhaps was never saved or even collected in the first place. Notice my quotes around the term "task force" I think the task force is a joke. I absolutely believe that this should have and most likely did come to LE's attention during the early portion of his career. I also believe that a group of between six and twelve members of this board could be formed and if provided with complete access to whatever evidence, information and materials related to the investigations of the VR/EAR/ONS crimes that group could under no circumstance do worse than LE did and, I believe it is probable they would do much better. I believe they would make significant progress in the investigation. Finally I believe that if you read my initial post again you will see that it was misinterpreted and for all intents and purposes you and I are in agreement on these matters. As we usually are hopefully.

[guessting]

Nov 26, 2013 2:23:45 GMT f1guyus said:

Nov 25, 2013 19:06:04 GMT lepke said:

Just trust the good looking posters...

Ohh, don't tempt me.

Or me....Leave it alone you are not as pretty as you seem to think you are, at least that is my opinion ,and thank god I get it!!!!!!

[batman]

I think statistically the odds of any murders being related is so small that these things are rare so to even dream of connections like this involves really hard evidence and a lot of convincing. Back in the 1970s I bet the concept of cold storage forensics was cutting edge and never fully accepted until 1987 when DNA profiling became commercially available to LE. That is when EAR-ONS ends in terms of what forensically seems feasible as his last known offense.

I can't look at LE back in the 70s and 80s through the lens of the 21st century. 2014 forensics and suburbia CCTV would have solved this earlier with other modern tools they just never had. Plus by the 80s EAR-ONS news seemed to be superseded by Ramariz. Larry Crompton's Sudden Terror is a very good idea. I think its our best bet as seeing justice being done.

[guessting]

Jan 5, 2014 22:44:47 GMT Drifter said:

Jan 5, 2014 16:28:16 GMT @playinem121 said:

When police investigators are handed a murder the last thing they start off suspecting is that it was committed by an offender unknown to the victim. The major reason for that is that the overwhelming number of homicides involve perpetrators who are known to the victim...some type of relationship exists between the offender and victim. So an investigation proceeds with investigators working in concentric circles that radiate outward from their victim. In the first circle is the victim's spouse or significant other. The next circle is a bit larger and might include family members. Then a still larger circle perhaps consisting of close friends. All the while the clock is ticking. The case is cooling rapidly and the cops are sweating because as they progress outward from circle to ever larger circle and work through love interests, family members, close friends, co-workers, other friends, neighbors and acquaintances they realize that with each circle...each grouping of persons and the increasing distance from the victim that they represent, the likelihood of solving the case becomes more remote.

With respect to these cases LE in different jurisdictions not only were put behind the investigative 8ball so to speak just by virtue of the difficulties presented by finding no apparent connection between any victim and any potential suspect they also lost precious time by failing to work together until the investigation was many years cold. Eye witnesses can pose tremendous difficulty for police and prosecutors when events are relatively fresh in their minds. Imagine now as some of these investigations began to push the forty year mark.

I really think that there may have been some LE contact at some point in the investigation with this guy. If the investigation was conducted properly (and I...most of us here really have no way of knowing that) even the most minor of contacts and encounters related to these investigations should have been documented and saved. Maybe it is in a patrol log. Maybe its on an FI (field interview) card or a formal interview report. What about the "lotion man"? Or the "kitten man"? Others who passed through roadblocks set up in the immediate aftermath of some EAR home invasion rapes? There has to be (at least I hope there is) reams of information collected by the various investigative jurisdictions over the multiple decades that the investigations have spanned. Perhaps the time has arrived when once and for all someone somewhere decides that it is finally time for all of the information that was collected and hopefully has been saved, be organized and reviewed. Maybe that could be done while the "task force" waits for a witness to come forward after all these many years to hand them the VR/EAR/ONS/GSK. If LE can't make the effort...if they can't spare the manpower...I am willing to wager that with the impressive collective intellect assembled on this board a group of volunteers could likely organize and review the evidence, information and assorted materials and at the very least come up with the same dead end LE has arrived at or, possibly make some real appreciable headway. I realize that LE is underfunded and overcommitted. I also have the feeling that a lot of time and opportunity have been swept from the beach because nobody had the time, the manpower (or womanpower) or the money. My sense though is that what is being done is too little too late. Meanwhile these cases get older and colder with the passing of each day. Just saying.

playenim:

Nicely written and articulately expressed.  But I must disagree.

You seem to have a lot of faith in LE.

There are many examples of serial killers who have had no connections to their victims.  Yet all these serial killers were caught, as posters here continually remind us.  So how is it that those killers were caught, but the ONS was not?  Why the difference?

How is it that in Sac, no suspects were ever identified, after all those rape attacks?

Task force?  What task force?  A few people here continue to advertise some task force.  But all we have is their talk.  Where is the evidence of a task force?

Again, your main assumption is that LE tried, and is still trying, to catch this guy.

Show me some hard evidence that that is true.

Further, you intimate that posters here would likely come to the same dead end as LE, if given the information that LE possesses.  I seriously doubt that.

Drifter