Asperger's, Psychopathy

[egotrout]

Asperger's is a tender topic for some contributors, so I'll tread as lightly as I can. There have been some unintentional inaccuracies in this and other boards, one being that the disorder and psychopathy are mutually exclusive. Some of GSK's behaviors weren't psychopathic, but just odd—even regressive—in ways that don't seem to add up to a psychotic disorder or something like schizotypal personality.

Some contributors consider GSK's odd, seemingly inconsistent behaviors to have been maneuvers to snow investigators. Too much cleverness has been attributed to this offender because he hasn't been caught, the case has nosebleed complexity, and/or his obvious psychopathy so predominates that anything strange or contrary he's said and done must've been imitative, faked.

Some Background, Violence

Mental disorder doesn't simply predict violence and violence doesn't simply signal mental disorder, though certain aspects of mental disorder can help explain or raise the risk of violent behavior; such as an impostor delusion (see Ted Kaczynski, Jonathan Haynes).

While the vast majority of Asperger's people don't engage in criminal or violent behavior, there is a small subgroup who do and these typically have another disorder. Prevalence and case studies of violence in Asperger's individuals vary widely in generalizability and validity, and have looked at affective and physical violence, weapons use, planned/predatory behavior, even (rare) binding. Sex offenses and fire setting noted, too, with sadism being exceedingly rare.

The association of psychopathy and violent behavior is well-known and the literature vast.

Asperger's and Some Features of Psychopathy

Though there is a popular tendency to see it everywhere, Asperger's is not common. Also contrary to popular opinion, psychopaths do not constitute a majority in incarceration or forensic psychiatric settings, where they're usually found. Except for certain despots and financiers, they are largely invisible in the community.

Like psychopaths, people with Asperger's function along a continuum and can have other disorders. Having one of these two disorders doesn't raise the risk of having the other.

People with Asperger's can imitate charm but don't usually pull it off so well. They can appear self-absorbed, but a grandiose sense of self-worth doesn't typically apply. They can have big ideas, though.

They can be prone to boredom and need stimulation, but this doesn't necessarily lead to thrill-seeking, dangerous behavior.

They may lie, but for reasons that may be illogical, childlike, or highly idiosyncratic. They can be cunning and manipulative, but probably not as a personality trait. They can have difficulty accepting responsibility for their own actions, but largely due to misunderstanding.

They can experience remorse and guilt, though it may seem shallow, with even flat affect; giving the appearance of a lack of empathy, even callousness. They can appreciate distress in others—though they may not always completely understand it or respond commensurate to the level of distress.

Emotional detachment or the appearance of lack of empathy in someone with Asperger's has more to do with misapprehending people and their emotions than with the truly careless self-absorbed detachment, cognitive cut-off, and victim devaluation that makes it easy for a psychopath to hurt people.

Though some may be dependent on others to varying degrees, they typically do not engage in a parasitic lifestyle. They may have problems with intimate/marital relationships, but don't typically leave a swath of wreckage behind a string of relationships. They may lack realistic long-term goals, and like anyone else, can be irresponsible with money and people, but not as a deliberate uncaring tendency.

They can be prone to impulsive, destructive behavior, with difficulty delaying gratification. They're not typically sexually promiscuous. They may have early behavior problems, but these typically don't qualify as a conduct disorder—they can have a juvenile record, but it is likely to be minor. They can have trouble following rules of probation or parole or conditional release from state hospital, but don't typically scoff at them. Criminal versatility is rare.

People with Asperger's can possess some of the generally recognized features of psychopathy, but not necessarily with the same quality or to the extent that psychopaths do.

If Asperger's played any part in GSK's crimes, I don't believe it contributed the large part to fulfilling lust, a need for power, and/or getting a thrill; more likely the motives of someone who's purely a psychopath. The behavior in this case may have been a repeated attempt to solve something rather than to resolve an inadequacy, anger, anxiety, or a lack of a sense of control.

Clearly psychopathy has predominated in this case but with occasional—but significant—disruptions of Asperger's or Asperger's-like behaviors. (Another thread will go into this more specifically...not enough room here.) A GSK-level offender whose sole difficulty is Asperger's would be VERY rare.

[Drifter]

I fear that "egotrout" is being a bit too modest.

Let me explain that egotrout has worked as a psychologist in corrections for 20 years in different outpatient and inpatient settings with a wide range of offenders, but mainly with high-profile sexual and violent offenders in max/supermax.

So egotrout knows a thing or two, both academically and in real-life professional settings, about
Asperger's syndrome and psychopathy.

"... the case has nosebleed complexity" (haha) love it.

Drifter

[jthou]

While I am far from an expert I do have personal experience to go on be it somewhat limited. As a teacher and coach for more than a decade I have had a few Aspergers students and athletes. I use the word athlete very loosely here as they competed but were not good. My primary hesitation in believing that EAR could've had aspergers is that every kid I have seen with it was not athletic in any sense of the word. In general they were slow, very uncoordinated, and very weak. However, all of them were extremely tough and put forth great effort and were never afraid. Though EAR did possess the effort and lack of fear, he was described as far too athletic from my experience to think he had aspergers in the slightest. Additionally, in the classroom, they aren't cunning in the sense that when they try to do something against the rules they are not capable of flying under the radar with it. They just do it and hope they're not seen. I just don't see them as capable of the preparation and planning needed to commit the crimes like EAR did.
As stated by op I know this is a touchy subject and I mean no offense to anyone. I don't like laying down blanket statements but in my limited experiences the students with aspergers I have taught have been remarkably similar. They have played sports, been really solid students making good grades they just haven't fit the EAR mold that I have seen.

[jackydee]

An aspergers sufferer here. I don't think we can tell with much confidence from his behavior or actions what he suffered from. We just don't know enough about him, and the variables of what could have been motivating him are vast. However, I had considered the aspergers before in relation to the amount of recceing he must have done. When I think of aspergers I mostly think of social clumsiness and a tendency to become absorbed in certain actions or behaviors. The amount of pre-planning he must have engaged in was vast. That to me is a possible sign of aspergers, but only a possible one. Im always wary of atrributing certain physical or mental illnesses to ear.

[jackydee]

Jul 21, 2017 12:39:20 GMT jthou said:

While I am far from an expert I do have personal experience to go on be it somewhat limited. As a teacher and coach for more than a decade I have had a few Aspergers students and athletes. I use the word athlete very loosely here as they competed but were not good. My primary hesitation in believing that EAR could've had aspergers is that every kid I have seen with it was not athletic in any sense of the word. In general they were slow, very uncoordinated, and very weak. However, all of them were extremely tough and put forth great effort and were never afraid. Though EAR did possess the effort and lack of fear, he was described as far too athletic from my experience to think he had aspergers in the slightest. Additionally, in the classroom, they aren't cunning in the sense that when they try to do something against the rules they are not capable of flying under the radar with it. They just do it and hope they're not seen. I just don't see them as capable of the preparation and planning needed to commit the crimes like EAR did.
As stated by op I know this is a touchy subject and I mean no offense to anyone. I don't like laying down blanket statements but in my limited experiences the students with aspergers I have taught have been remarkably similar. They have played sports, been really solid students making good grades they just haven't fit the EAR mold that I have seen.

You make a good point. People on the aspergers/autism spectrum are not exactly great athletes. I dont believe they are particularly athletic or practical. Practicality and athleticism are two things I do associate with ear.

[egotrout]

Jul 21, 2017 12:39:20 GMT jthou said:

While I am far from an expert I do have personal experience to go on be it somewhat limited. As a teacher and coach for more than a decade I have had a few Aspergers students and athletes. I use the word athlete very loosely here as they competed but were not good. My primary hesitation in believing that EAR could've had aspergers is that every kid I have seen with it was not athletic in any sense of the word. In general they were slow, very uncoordinated, and very weak. However, all of them were extremely tough and put forth great effort and were never afraid. Though EAR did possess the effort and lack of fear, he was described as far too athletic from my experience to think he had aspergers in the slightest. Additionally, in the classroom, they aren't cunning in the sense that when they try to do something against the rules they are not capable of flying under the radar with it. They just do it and hope they're not seen. I just don't see them as capable of the preparation and planning needed to commit the crimes like EAR did.
As stated by op I know this is a touchy subject and I mean no offense to anyone. I don't like laying down blanket statements but in my limited experiences the students with aspergers I have taught have been remarkably similar. They have played sports, been really solid students making good grades they just haven't fit the EAR mold that I have seen.

It's good to hear from someone who has taught kids with Asperger's! This takes patience and dedication, especially in a school setting. In response to your post, I did get snagged on the physical coordination, athleticism issue. We would be talking about an exceptional individual. Because folks with Asperger's are a diverse group (hence the muddying term "autistic-spectrum"), different developmental trajectories are possible; with outcomes not just dependent on genetics but on key social, education, training, and treatment experiences. There are individuals who do develop a level of coordination and fitness by mid-late adolescence that would allow them, say, to hop a fence and run and ride a bike. Uncommon, though.

As far as planning and preparation ability go, consider this: people with Asperger's can go to college and on to graduate studies. But as kids, while they can be unusually skilled in things like music and rote memorization and can dismantle and reassemble gadgets and monologue on a range of topics beyond their years, they can have, for example, major problems completing and turning in homework. (You've probably seen this.) Also, people with Asperger's can be employed and live independently. Some are Ph.D. academics, professionals, scientists, and in skilled trades. They are often good at pattern recognition and discerning systems, and while this makes them good analysts, statisticians, researchers, librarians, they're not necessarily savants.

[egotrout]

It occurs to me that if I'm going to make statements about GSK being a psychopath with Asperger's or Asperger's-like behaviors, I should offer up something about his development and some of the behaviors I'm basing my idea(s) on:

Some Developmental Events

In GSK's school years, presumably the mid 60s, Asperger's (under whatever name or approx. name) was not often identified as well as or as early as it could've been--in fact, treatment often meant removing the child from the home. Asperger's behavior would've put GSK on his teacher's radar and he may have received some sort of special attention. Unfortunately, in those days, this often simply meant that he would've been placed in a room with a mish-mash group of kids. It is likely he was seen as an inflexible pain rather than a child who needed to be dealt with in ways that benefited him academically, socially, and emotionally. (I wouldn't be surprised if he was sent to military school later on.)

As an Asperger's kid, GSK's school years would've fraught with intense social difficulty. As an oddball prey to peers, a victim of bullying and rejection, forced to exist outside the social circle, he would've become frustrated and hopeless, and probably struck back. If this was a chronic state of affairs, rage and fantasy would've predominated and spurred a cycle of social alienation. Middle school – junior high transitions can be particularly hard with changing academic demands and a social arena where difficulty in understanding, appreciating, and adhering to group rules makes one a target. (Also, some Asperger's kids have been observed to be unusually good-looking or cute and as time goes on, appear younger than they are, so this can be yet another point of teasing.)

Handwriting can be quite difficult for people with Asperger's. In GSK's school days, schools were still really drilling kids in handwriting, so he could've improved with a lot of work. Assuming the Danville papers are GSK's, his resentment re: having to write sentences wasn't just whining.

Sexual/Relationship History

Some Asperger's people are sensitive to touch but are just as interested in sex as other people. However, initial well-meaning attempts at sexual approaches may be impulsive, unsophisticated, blunt, and stumbling, and met with polite declines or derision, which can create misunderstanding, intense confusion, shame, anger. Further, is difficulty accessing the underlying emotional and social weight of sex and making sense of others' body language. People with Asperger's may be more comfortable around much younger or much older people. They do marry and even have children. They can cease sexual/touch behavior in relationships, though.

A person with Asperger's engaging in the sort of violence we're concerned with in this case is unlikely to have been in an intimate relationship and maintained the dichotomy of being uncompromising with his victims and compromising within a relationship.

I think GSK was severely sexually preoccupied from about the age of nine, maybe as early as seven. This is not common and nearly always ends badly. Imagine this state for a kid with Asperger's, whose development is already aggravated by misperceptions, confusions.

He would've had pre-adolescent law enforcement or social services contact for escalating sexual behavior. A parent (likely his mother) would've shamed, embarrassed, humiliated him in some way, and followed this with a cycle of rejection--all this on top of what he was already getting from peers. An Asperger's kid would have had a lot of trouble untangling all this.

If GSK was sexually abused or witnessed or participated in abuse of another and/or just saw a lot of consensual sexual behavior or graphic material, I wouldn't be surprised if his mother was involved. I think she played a large role in his life, exerting control over him to further her own personal emotional, psychological, and physical needs--an Asperger's kid would've been asea in this dynamic. Whatever she might or might not have done, he would've maintained fierce loyalty to her and despite any behavior problems he may have had, he was probably a beloved only child; the paradoxical relationship with a narcissistic parent. His mother's death would likely have destabilized him.

Mental Health History

Violent and/or sexual behavior may have landed him in a secure unit as early as pre-adolescence, perhaps Camarillo. I think he had a CA forensic commitment in the early 70s in connection with an offense, probably in Atascadero or Patton, as a Mentally Disordered Sex Offender. If the 1978 phone call is to be believed, in Stockton at one time.

(He would not have had a commitment during his VR-EAR period because I think he wouldn't have followed conditional release given how busy he was. If he couldn't do that, he would've rapidly been put on law enforcement radar--people violating conditional release would've been in the same flagged category as parolees and sex offenders.)

Some Behaviors

Gait was noted as odd, “funny”, effeminate, gimp-like, bowlegged, knock-kneed, even stilted. Some people with Asperger's have an awkward gait, sometimes a “springiness”, even toe-walking. As I've said in an earlier post, all this doesn't rule out fence jumping, bike riding, or running, this individual could've developed differently than other people with Asperger's.

GSK's noted to have spoken through clenched teeth in a harsh whisper or in a sort of growl, to cover a high-pitched voice and/or a stutter. People with Asperger's often have unusual speech rhythm or pitch or no pitch at all. Content-wise, his speech was not just scripted or repetitive, it could be perseverative, and at times seemed childish, even regressive. He monologued and could be just too verbose: sobbing, crying for his “mommy”, repeating the word over and over, saying his offenses were scaring her, apologizing to her, begging her to help him stop his behavior. This sort of on-site behavior wasn't a fake-out.

When GSK said “I have to wait for my parents to leave so I can go home.” it was self-talk, part of task management. I don't think it was an accidental lapse or part of some cruel game. The teenage victim in this instance mentioned he seemed childish, odd, repetitive, ambivalent.

Body odor reports: nothing to do with Asperger's. Other disorders could contribute to significant self-neglect but b.o. more likely was due to physical exertion, anxiety sweats, maybe drug abuse.

GSK taking and leaving and moving around disparate objects at crime scenes is odd, obsessive in a way, senseless. Some people with Asperger's will take, handle, and just collect stuff in the way some birds build nests.

Like some people with Asperger's, GSK was not big on eye contact. I don't think paranoia or a delusional belief was the reason for this. Asperger's people may exhibit a cold stare when engaged, though.

[tiredanddone]

Egotrout, you do appear to be familiar with Asperger's syndrome. I would respectfully disagree however with much of what you said, too much to write in a post. And please don't take my reply as a harsh criticism, because it's not meant that way. I just beg to differ... I don't see anything related to Asperger's syndrome and EAR behaviors. What I see is you are taking aspects of Asperger's and squeezing it into the EAR box. If you do that, then I can see --in a huge stretch--how it might fit. But, really, most of what was used to match EAR is more plausibly explained by someone who is a sociopath. He did all kinds of things to avoid detection, most of these things you used for a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. Someone with Asperger's isn't capable of all of that. As you said yourself, the combination of Asperger's and criminal, sociopathic behaviors is rare. And when you said that psychopaths don't constitute a majority of incarcerated people, I almost fell of my couch. What? They represent around HALF of incarcerated inmates! That is an ASTONISHING percentage of inmates, when you consider the fact that they are one half of ALL psychological disorders compared to! I'm just left scratching my head, wondering where you are getting this from? And you work in prisons? Really? Hmmnnnn....

Here's just one pschological study abstract to show my point:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0015230/#!po=15.7407

I realize this board is interested in alternative theories and creative thinking, but this is really out of the box.

Someone with Asperger's, even someone far down on the scale, wouldn't be able to commit over 50 rapes and 12 homicides, due to the basic face that in each case (aside from a couple botched attempts) he maintained complete control over the scene. Someone with Asperger's wouldn't be capable of that, imo...

[egotrout]

Jul 21, 2017 20:29:50 GMT tiredanddone said:

Egotrout, you do appear to be familiar with Asperger's syndrome. I would respectfully disagree however with much of what you said, too much to write in a post. And please don't take my reply as a harsh criticism, because it's not meant that way. I just beg to differ... I don't see anything related to Asperger's syndrome and EAR behaviors. What I see is you are taking aspects of Asperger's and squeezing it into the EAR box. If you do that, then I can see --in a huge stretch--how it might fit. But, really, most of what was used to match EAR is more plausibly explained by someone who is a sociopath. He did all kinds of things to avoid detection, most of these things you used for a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. Someone with Asperger's isn't capable of all of that. As you said yourself, the combination of Asperger's and criminal, sociopathic behaviors is rare. And when you said that psychopaths don't constitute a majority of incarcerated people, I almost fell of my couch. What? They represent around HALF of incarcerated inmates! That is an ASTONISHING percentage of inmates, when you consider the fact that they are one half of ALL psychological disorders compared to! I'm just left scratching my head, wondering where you are getting this from? And you work in prisons? Really? Hmmnnnn....

Here's just one pschological study abstract to show my point:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0015230/#!po=15.7407

I realize this board is interested in alternative theories and creative thinking, but this is really out of the box.

Someone with Asperger's, even someone far down on the scale, wouldn't be able to commit over 50 rapes and 12 homicides, due to the basic face that in each case (aside from a couple botched attempts) he maintained complete control over the scene. Someone with Asperger's wouldn't be capable of that, imo...

MANY of the inmates in prison systems meet criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Careful, though, many are given this diagnosis simply because they're in prison (seen as a criminal)--an unfortunate but common practice. I think you're making the mistake of thinking ASPD is the same as psychopathy. There are researchers who make this mistake, too. Not all ASPDs are psychopaths. BTW: ASPD does not represent one half of all disorders in prison. Inmates present with a cornucopia of psychological disorders--some of them are also ASPDs.

[Deleted]

I feel like it's kind of irresponsible basically attempting to add this to the EAR canon.

The way it's presented, there's no way it can be argued since Asperger's is made up of a wide spectrum of symptoms and behaviors. If he's caught and has been acting as a completely socially "normal" person, you can still say that he exhibited behaviors associated with the autism spectrum.

In the experience I've had with people with Asperger's, they will focus on a single obsession to the point of becoming an expert. Then I would suspect that true crime and terror were Aspie-EAR's obsession in the mid to late 70s. Someone who interacted with him (on even the smallest level) would have known about this, making it extremely unlikely that he wouldn't have been turned in very quickly. Not to mention the fact that he wouldn't have had the cool head needed for evasion in pressure situations.

Of all of the EAR theories where people stretch to relate the EAR to their own experience or field of study, this one seems like one of the most unfeasible to me.

[tiredanddone]

Jul 21, 2017 22:04:53 GMT egotrout said:

Jul 21, 2017 20:29:50 GMT tiredanddone said:

Egotrout, you do appear to be familiar with Asperger's syndrome. I would respectfully disagree however with much of what you said, too much to write in a post. And please don't take my reply as a harsh criticism, because it's not meant that way. I just beg to differ... I don't see anything related to Asperger's syndrome and EAR behaviors. What I see is you are taking aspects of Asperger's and squeezing it into the EAR box. If you do that, then I can see --in a huge stretch--how it might fit. But, really, most of what was used to match EAR is more plausibly explained by someone who is a sociopath. He did all kinds of things to avoid detection, most of these things you used for a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. Someone with Asperger's isn't capable of all of that. As you said yourself, the combination of Asperger's and criminal, sociopathic behaviors is rare. And when you said that psychopaths don't constitute a majority of incarcerated people, I almost fell of my couch. What? They represent around HALF of incarcerated inmates! That is an ASTONISHING percentage of inmates, when you consider the fact that they are one half of ALL psychological disorders compared to! I'm just left scratching my head, wondering where you are getting this from? And you work in prisons? Really? Hmmnnnn....

Here's just one pschological study abstract to show my point:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0015230/#!po=15.7407

I realize this board is interested in alternative theories and creative thinking, but this is really out of the box.

Someone with Asperger's, even someone far down on the scale, wouldn't be able to commit over 50 rapes and 12 homicides, due to the basic face that in each case (aside from a couple botched attempts) he maintained complete control over the scene. Someone with Asperger's wouldn't be capable of that, imo...

MANY of the inmates in prison systems meet criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Careful, though, many are given this diagnosis simply because they're in prison (seen as a criminal)--an unfortunate but common practice. I think you're making the mistake of thinking ASPD is the same as psychopathy. There are researchers who make this mistake, too. Not all ASPDs are psychopaths. BTW: ASPD does not represent one half of all disorders in prison. Inmates present with a cornucopia of psychological disorders--some of them are also ASPDs.

I do consider ASPD to be the same as psychopathy. In fact, there is no diagnosis for "psychopathy" as you put it, in the DSM. It all falls under the diagnosis of "Cluster B" antisocial personality disorder. People like to parse out ASPD into different categories, but they are really only describing ASPD behaviors on a spectrum. The truth is, is that given the right time, place and circumstances, your run-of-the-mill ASPD is capable of things lay people would type as a psychopath. Researchers aren't mistaken about this. There's research ad finitum on this... 

Did you read the statistic in the article on the percentage of ASPD found among the incarcerated? It says about 50% have that diagnosis. Pretty much standard research out there supports this. And yes, the rest of the 50% would likely have some other mental disorder, but not all. There is also a high percentage of co-morbidity. Drug/alcohol abuse is one of the most common.

I'm not sure who you are referring to as "many give this diagnosis as a common practice." If you mean someone who has no training in psychological assessment and diagnosis, then that might be the case. But, prisons have very well-trained and experienced mental health professionals who are more than competent in making the correct diagnosis of ASPD, and this is where these studies and statistics come from. 

[egotrout]

Jul 21, 2017 23:25:55 GMT tiredanddone said:

Jul 21, 2017 22:04:53 GMT egotrout said:

MANY of the inmates in prison systems meet criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Careful, though, many are given this diagnosis simply because they're in prison (seen as a criminal)--an unfortunate but common practice. I think you're making the mistake of thinking ASPD is the same as psychopathy. There are researchers who make this mistake, too. Not all ASPDs are psychopaths. BTW: ASPD does not represent one half of all disorders in prison. Inmates present with a cornucopia of psychological disorders--some of them are also ASPDs.

I do consider ASPD to be the same as psychopathy. In fact, there is no diagnosis for "psychopathy" as you put it, in the DSM. It all falls under the diagnosis of "Cluster B" antisocial personality disorder. People like to parse out ASPD into different categories, but they are really only describing ASPD behaviors on a spectrum. The truth is, is that given the right time, place and circumstances, your run-of-the-mill ASPD is capable of things lay people would type as a psychopath. Researchers aren't mistaken about this. There's research ad finitum on this... 

Did you read the statistic in the article on the percentage of ASPD found among the incarcerated? It says about 50% have that diagnosis. Pretty much standard research out there supports this. And yes, the rest of the 50% would likely have some other mental disorder, but not all. There is also a high percentage of co-morbidity. Drug/alcohol abuse is one of the most common.

I'm not sure who you are referring to as "many give this diagnosis as a common practice." If you mean someone who has no training in psychological assessment and diagnosis, then that might be the case. But, prisons have very well-trained and experienced mental health professionals who are more than competent in making the correct diagnosis of ASPD, and this is where these studies and statistics come from. 

Not arguing about ASPD prevalence, etc. Believe what you want. You really need to read the literature on psychopathy. All I've got to say on that...

[locard]

Egotrout,

Thanks for sharing your professional insights. I think you're on to something about EAR/GSK's screwed up sexual background, which has been discussed on various threads.

EAR threw out so many red herrings that it's impossible to sort out fact from fiction until he is identified. So I don't buy his telling a teenage victim that he had to wait until his parents left to return home. He also told one victim he saw her at the Officer's Club. And he created stories to match each victim.

I am a native Northern Californian, raised a few counties away from Sacramento County, and I don't think that EAR lived in the Sacramento area. I know I am in the minority. This was a careful, detailed, and methodical offender. I don't think he'd vote and live in the area where he offended. I think he commuted to Sacramento County to offend. I don't think he lived in any of the counties at the time he offended there. This is a guy who planned for everything. He certainly didn't want the cops on him and other people to be suspicious of him because of his age.

[Any of N]

egotrout , have you had the opportunity to read the original police reports, or are you relying on Crompton and Shelby's books like most of the rest of us? I ask because there's sparse mention of certain things in the common data pool, like the Mommy business, the odd gait, and the avoidance of eye contact. I don't remember that last one at all.

Fascinating discussion. Thank you for sharing your views. A few more questions:

• If I'm following correctly, Asperger's might explain the GSK's childish behavior, and that opens the door for him to be older. Some of us lean toward our guy starting out as a teenager, but if he had Asperger's like you theorize, what age range would you think is most likely?
• Where do you stand on the VR-GSK connection? It seems that the VR was even more childish yet elusive and cunning. In the 12-26-75 podcast, they describe his encounter with Officer McGowen in such a way that it really makes that kind of duality stand out.
• If you are right about his previous mental health history, don't you think he would have been looked at hard by law enforcement as an EAR suspect? I can easily imagine several ways where he's brought to their attention. How did he slip through the cracks?
• To be so elusive, didn't the GSK need some understanding of human psychology? You know, some sense, some instinct, for how people think, whether victim or investigator. I realize this is not the same thing as social interaction, but it seems to me the mental capacities could well be related. Wouldn't Asperger's make it difficult?
  

(A quick aside for my message board compatriots: I fully realize that Aspergers's is absolutely not a monolithic thing. Some people diagnosed with Asperger's may act childish in certain ways. Some will have difficulty socializing. Some may have certain mental health issues. I'm strictly talking here about how egotorut characterized GSK.)

[findons]

Jul 20, 2017 18:26:59 GMT egotrout said:

Asperger's is a tender topic for some contributors, so I'll tread as lightly as I can. There have been some unintentional inaccuracies in this and other boards, one being that the disorder and psychopathy are mutually exclusive. Some of GSK's behaviors weren't psychopathic, but just odd—even regressive—in ways that don't seem to add up to a psychotic disorder or something like schizotypal personality.

Some contributors consider GSK's odd, seemingly inconsistent behaviors to have been maneuvers to snow investigators. Too much cleverness has been attributed to this offender because he hasn't been caught, the case has nosebleed complexity, and/or his obvious psychopathy so predominates that anything strange or contrary he's said and done must've been imitative, faked.

Some Background, Violence

Mental disorder doesn't simply predict violence and violence doesn't simply signal mental disorder, though certain aspects of mental disorder can help explain or raise the risk of violent behavior; such as an impostor delusion (see Ted Kaczynski, Jonathan Haynes).

While the vast majority of Asperger's people don't engage in criminal or violent behavior, there is a small subgroup who do and these typically have another disorder. Prevalence and case studies of violence in Asperger's individuals vary widely in generalizability and validity, and have looked at affective and physical violence, weapons use, planned/predatory behavior, even (rare) binding. Sex offenses and fire setting noted, too, with sadism being exceedingly rare.

The association of psychopathy and violent behavior is well-known and the literature vast.

Asperger's and Some Features of Psychopathy

Though there is a popular tendency to see it everywhere, Asperger's is not common. Also contrary to popular opinion, psychopaths do not constitute a majority in incarceration or forensic psychiatric settings, where they're usually found. Except for certain despots and financiers, they are largely invisible in the community.

Like psychopaths, people with Asperger's function along a continuum and can have other disorders. Having one of these two disorders doesn't raise the risk of having the other.

People with Asperger's can imitate charm but don't usually pull it off so well. They can appear self-absorbed, but a grandiose sense of self-worth doesn't typically apply. They can have big ideas, though.

They can be prone to boredom and need stimulation, but this doesn't necessarily lead to thrill-seeking, dangerous behavior.

They may lie, but for reasons that may be illogical, childlike, or highly idiosyncratic. They can be cunning and manipulative, but probably not as a personality trait. They can have difficulty accepting responsibility for their own actions, but largely due to misunderstanding.

They can experience remorse and guilt, though it may seem shallow, with even flat affect; giving the appearance of a lack of empathy, even callousness. They can appreciate distress in others—though they may not always completely understand it or respond commensurate to the level of distress.

Emotional detachment or the appearance of lack of empathy in someone with Asperger's has more to do with misapprehending people and their emotions than with the truly careless self-absorbed detachment, cognitive cut-off, and victim devaluation that makes it easy for a psychopath to hurt people.

Though some may be dependent on others to varying degrees, they typically do not engage in a parasitic lifestyle. They may have problems with intimate/marital relationships, but don't typically leave a swath of wreckage behind a string of relationships. They may lack realistic long-term goals, and like anyone else, can be irresponsible with money and people, but not as a deliberate uncaring tendency.

They can be prone to impulsive, destructive behavior, with difficulty delaying gratification. They're not typically sexually promiscuous. They may have early behavior problems, but these typically don't qualify as a conduct disorder—they can have a juvenile record, but it is likely to be minor. They can have trouble following rules of probation or parole or conditional release from state hospital, but don't typically scoff at them. Criminal versatility is rare.

People with Asperger's can possess some of the generally recognized features of psychopathy, but not necessarily with the same quality or to the extent that psychopaths do.

If Asperger's played any part in GSK's crimes, I don't believe it contributed the large part to fulfilling lust, a need for power, and/or getting a thrill; more likely the motives of someone who's purely a psychopath. The behavior in this case may have been a repeated attempt to solve something rather than to resolve an inadequacy, anger, anxiety, or a lack of a sense of control.

Clearly psychopathy has predominated in this case but with occasional—but significant—disruptions of Asperger's or Asperger's-like behaviors. (Another thread will go into this more specifically...not enough room here.) A GSK-level offender whose sole difficulty is Asperger's would be VERY rare.

Thank you for your post.  I have to ask what made you want to discuss Asperger's?  I have to say that in EAR's case it is difficult to try to fit this label to him.  I suppose and believe he probably has more than one issue here.  He may have ADHD along with Oppositional Defiance Disorder as well as Anti-social personality disorder.  It seems that these types of issues would more fall in line with EAR and ONS.  Asperger's seems a more difficult connection for the behaviors that ONS exhibited.  I think that might be what you are saying in the long run if I am not mistaken?  The risk taking and excitement he got from his prowling's, breaking into homes and progressing from there as well as the intense and thorough planning with the complete attention to detail in most cases in order to not be caught seems more in line with ADHD.  Unless he had a very light case in the spectrum of Asperger's that would not interfere with his intentions and his game.  Like I said it is difficult for me to make this particular issue fit EAR.  So your last comment "a GSK level offender whose sole difficulty is Asperger's would be very rare."  I would think so as well.  It does not fit for me.  Thank you again for the post and any response.