Is VR and EAR the same person, by GoBears

[portofleith]

Feb 13, 2015 8:23:56 GMT @privatecitizen said:

Feb 13, 2015 7:58:29 GMT portofleith said:

Were there any indicators on approximate shoe size, round smooth faces and the affect of a special needs person?  Brett McGowen was quite clear on this point.

His father said his shooter presented as a special needs individual which concurs with what another witness stated in an account related by Shelby in his book.

The short stubby fingers could be another indicator of a genetic anomaly.

I am not disputing what his father said about his shooter. That seems to be an issue with you, not me.

What Brett has posted and said off board, coincides with what I claimed. Haven't you claimed that you have access to the Visalia LE records about the crimes? If so, you know whom Det. McGowen identified as his shooter, whom he and other LE thought killed Prof. Snelling, the info about the brothers and other suspects including the much debated suspect, the info about which crimes he suspected which suspects of doing, and the accurate info about the sketches.

I agree with Brett's dad's info and I disagree with the misinformation that has been posted about his dad for years on the boards and on your colleague's website.

I'm still fixated on the multiple stubby fingered individuals roaming the streets of Visalia en masse.    I repeat my questions.  Did your three stubbies have smooth round faces, 11 inch shoe soles and look and act like special need teens?  Until there is a prosecution for the Snelling murder, I would say none of the "best candidates" need to lose any sleep. . . . but perhaps one on the list of many does.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2015 8:34:55 GMT portofleith said:

Feb 13, 2015 8:23:56 GMT @privatecitizen said:

I am not disputing what his father said about his shooter. That seems to be an issue with you, not me.

What Brett has posted and said off board, coincides with what I claimed. Haven't you claimed that you have access to the Visalia LE records about the crimes? If so, you know whom Det. McGowen identified as his shooter, whom he and other LE thought killed Prof. Snelling, the info about the brothers and other suspects including the much debated suspect, the info about which crimes he suspected which suspects of doing, and the accurate info about the sketches.

I agree with Brett's dad's info and I disagree with the misinformation that has been posted about his dad for years on the boards and on your colleague's website.

I'm still fixated on the multiple stubby fingered individuals roaming the streets of Visalia en masse.    I repeat my questions.  Did your three stubbies have smooth round faces, 11 inch shoe soles and look and act like special need teens?  Until there is a prosecution for the Snelling murder, I would say none of the "best candidates" need to lose any sleep. . . . but perhaps one on the list of many does.

That's interesting that you're fixated on that issue.

Imo, 2 had smooth round faces. I wouldn't describe the third as having a round face back then, but others considered his face round. One gave off an appearance to many people that he was special needs. Their shoe sizes coincided with LE info about prints found at some crime scenes.

I'm not sure why you're asking me, since you have said you have access to the records.

I think Det. McGowen was very likely right about whom he thought killed Prof. Snelling and most definitely right about whom his shooter was.

[push]

Detective Shelby has an interesting story about McGowen and the VR.

From Chapter 30 of Hunting a Psychopath:

"Local media attention, focused as it was on the EAR, soon caught the attention of people outside the Sacramento area and especially other law enforcement agencies. Among those paying attention were two of the primary investigators from Visalia; Sergeant John Vaughn and Special Agent Bill McGowan. That was how I came to find those two fine men sitting in my office one morning in early 1977."

"They had two reasons for being in Sacramento. For one, they wanted to exchange information about the Visalia Ransacker and the East Area Rapist. Besides wanting to explore the possibility the two were one and the same, they had a person of interest then living in the nearby town of Davis."

(snip)

"Since Special Agent McGowan had come face to face with the suspect, they had a description. They also had a second witness. The descriptions that came from both was that of a white male, 5 ft 9 inches to 11inches tall and weighing 150 to 175 lbs. Rather than muscular or heavy he was described as pear shaped.

He was thought to be older than high school age with “mean-looking” eyes. Clothing seen was a ski mask, dark green pants and a dark colored shirt. His voice was described as high-pitched."

(snip)

Remember the aforementioned person of interest in Davis?

"This witness detective, who was seated behind me, was not able to identify this man with the huge calf muscles as the person who shot him. Looking me in the eye, Agent McGowan said he had seen too many faces and heard too many voices to be able to identify the suspect."

[push]

The Snelling's description:

Chapter 62 - Hunting a Psychopath
"Professor Snelling, had stumbled onto a prowler around his house. He told a co-worker the prowler was a white male about 5 ft. 10 inches tall with collar-length hair."

No mention of another "older" prowler.

Beth Snelling's description:
"The description of the suspect was white male, 5 ft. 10 inches, with a medium build , on the heavy side. His age was between 25 and 30 years . He had a round face with a square or wide jaw. His eyes were dark and the pupils not seen. The hair on the back of his hands was light colored . As he was not wearing gloves when he grabbied her, the young teenager could tell that his hands were neither soft nor rough. She also said he had very short, stubby fingers. His hair was collar-length. He was wearing a dark colored wind breaker, zipped to the neck, with tight fitting cuffs around the wrists."

[push]

The fact is the VR case and the EAR/ONS case have tons of various witness reports of various strange looking men.

The only difference in the VR case is there's the addition of a fat dude who can vault fences with ease. McGowen wasn't the only witness who saw the FAT VR. But, FAT VR can't be the ones the Snellings saw.

[xiulan]

As far as the connection of VR to the Snellings or to the person McGowan saw, there is no conclusive proof or evidence that that either description is actually VR at all. In my opinion the links between VR and the Snelling residence are stronger, but far short of certain. Not that I feel any avenue of research that includes one or the other or both or neither is invaluable, it's just my way of thinking that care has to be taken in how far aspects of this case with vague links influence a person's direction in the case as a whole.

We also have to contend with the probability that not all of the home invasions listed among the ransackings were the work of the same person, or even one person acting entirely alone. The person responsible for the main body of VR break-ins may have had a friend or relative drive him to and from some of the locations. The whole thing may have started out as a suggested prank from one buddy to the other and then one of them went a bit further off the deep end than the other was comfortable with, so they parted ways. Maybe it was a pair who were both twisted, but not in the same direction: one literally got off on handling other people's stuff and sifting through their memories while the other was quickly bored of that and branched out to attempted abduction/rape. Maybe it was two or more people who were not connected to each other at all. And maybe, aside from a couple of break-ins that got lumped in, it really all was one person. We really don't know and the links are tenuous at best. The composites, to me, are about useless in this case.

[push]

Feb 14, 2015 23:30:16 GMT xiulan said:

As far as the connection of VR to the Snellings or to the person McGowan saw, there is no conclusive proof or evidence that that either description is actually VR at all. In my opinion the links between VR and the Snelling residence are stronger, but far short of certain. Not that I feel any avenue of research that includes one or the other or both or neither is invaluable, it's just my way of thinking that care has to be taken in how far aspects of this case with vague links influence a person's direction in the case as a whole.

We also have to contend with the probability that not all of the home invasions listed among the ransackings were the work of the same person, or even one person acting entirely alone. The person responsible for the main body of VR break-ins may have had a friend or relative drive him to and from some of the locations. The whole thing may have started out as a suggested prank from one buddy to the other and then one of them went a bit further off the deep end than the other was comfortable with, so they parted ways. Maybe it was a pair who were both twisted, but not in the same direction: one literally got off on handling other people's stuff and sifting through their memories while the other was quickly bored of that and branched out to attempted abduction/rape. Maybe it was two or more people who were not connected to each other at all. And maybe, aside from a couple of break-ins that got lumped in, it really all was one person. We really don't know and the links are tenuous at best. The composites, to me, are about useless in this case.

I agree with everything you wrote.

[highway]

Do you think VR had any connection to the adult school? Not college or high school. He could be looking around while he was supposed to be making up credits, getting GED etc. Did the principal of the adult school get questioned about students?

[dengas]

I don't even remember there being an "adult school" in 1975! I know that classes to obtain a real estate license were held where K-Mart, Colony Kitchen, a laundromat, and a liquor store were all located.

[lepke]

From what I know of estate agents, that sounds about right.

[dbw]

From what I know of real estate agents, it seems to fit right in with the "Special Needs" angle. I sincerely hope to never move again, if for now other reason, not to have to deal with the silliness of real estate agents I dealt with. Once was enough.

[X]

I'm pretty on the fence about this. There is a lot that fits, but some that doesn't.

[dengas]

I think it is always worthwhile to discuss, once again, all that doesn't fit. Those elements are just as important.

[Deleted]

they were "both" left-handed sexual sadists and prolific ransackers, who had the same shoe size and stood about the same height, stood on overturned flowerpots to peep inside windows, were agile enough to leap fences, and spoke to imaginary cohorts at their crime scenes.

[tomsawyer]

Jan 17, 2016 16:53:49 GMT saund10295 said:

they were "both" left-handed sexual sadists and prolific ransackers, who had the same shoe size and stood about the same height, stood on overturned flowerpots to peep inside windows, were agile enough to leap fences, and spoke to imaginary cohorts at their crime scenes.

I agree. Not that anyone could prove they are the same (yet). Probably the biggest obstacle to linking them are the different witness descriptions. But then I remember a friend I knew first year in college. He was a slender, reasonably handsome guy, and reasonably fit. He told me he used to be fat and showed me an old photo of him just a few years earlier. It was shocking. I mean amazing difference between the old him and the new him. So even the obstacle of the different descriptions may not be so great.

Tom