Will the DNA search procedure work on the Zodiac case.

[Deleted]

Jul 2, 2018 3:06:55 GMT annielynn said:

Jul 1, 2018 22:06:09 GMT @fishtale said:

Ever hear of the Canal killer? Bryan Patrick Miller arrested in 2015 for the murders of 2 women (the murders dating back 20 years ago or something like that). The 22 yr old was riding her bike along a canal, the killer beheaded her first the headless body showed up and later the head floating in the canal. The 17yr old 2nd victim was also biking and killed found in the canal. A third girl was also killed she was in Bryan Patrick Millers neighborhood fundraising was likely dismembered and thrown in trash supposedly he confessed to his wife about the girl that came knocking. So the Phoenix Canal Killer case is a case involving 2 possibly 3 murder victims, is half as old as the GSK case, and was solved first by genealogy - DNA. As much as I like Paul Holes there is no denying he had some serious career mistakes that were his call. The GSK case upwards of God knows how many victims, preceding the GSK investigators genealogy/DNA efforts are case solves like the Canal Killer with 2 confirmed victims. I mean it's great when any killing can be brought to justice particularly for victims of course. However, the GSK was not the first serial killer case to be solved by genealogy and it's being treated as the pioneer. What put the fire under LEs butts in GSK case, the Canal killer solve! Anytime I read an article on Zodiac there is mention of GSK genealogy solve. Anyways at least Zodiac investigators jumped right on that! Some justice for many more may be coming soon...

The Canal Killer/Bryan Patrick Miller case definitely rings a bell with me - right down to the possible 3rd victim, - but I can't say with any certainty until I check it out a little deeper. I suspect that I may have heard about it while it was still unsolved.
I don't dispute anything that you're saying about that case being the first to utilize a genealogy database to solve a crime and I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise. If I did it was unintentional.
All I'm saying is that since the capture of JJD there appears to have been an increased interest by LE to gain a DNA profile in the Zodiac case. WAY overdue to be sure, but better late than never I guess. There's talk that LE will have a full DNA profile (hopefully Z's) any day now.
Whether or not Z is still alive is another issue all together, but even if he's dead it would be great to have the mystery put to rest. I'd love to think that 2018 will prove to be a bad year for old California serial killers.

[sultrycrockett]

Jul 2, 2018 3:06:55 GMT annielynn said:

Jul 1, 2018 22:06:09 GMT @fishtale said:

Uhh yes. There has been a renewed interest in gaining Zodiac's DNA profile given the results of the GSK case. I'm talking after JJD's arrest, not previously.
And yes, it's unfortunate that Dave Toschi never knew who Z was/is.

Ever hear of the Canal killer? Bryan Patrick Miller arrested in 2015 for the murders of 2 women (the murders dating back 20 years ago or something like that). The 22 yr old was riding her bike along a canal, the killer beheaded her first the headless body showed up and later the head floating in the canal. The 17yr old 2nd victim was also biking and killed found in the canal. A third girl was also killed she was in Bryan Patrick Millers neighborhood fundraising was likely dismembered and thrown in trash supposedly he confessed to his wife about the girl that came knocking. So the Phoenix Canal Killer case is a case involving 2 possibly 3 murder victims, is half as old as the GSK case, and was solved first by genealogy - DNA. As much as I like Paul Holes there is no denying he had some serious career mistakes that were his call. The GSK case upwards of God knows how many victims, preceding the GSK investigators genealogy/DNA efforts are case solves like the Canal Killer with 2 confirmed victims. I mean it's great when any killing can be brought to justice particularly for victims of course. However, the GSK was not the first serial killer case to be solved by genealogy and it's being treated as the pioneer. What put the fire under LEs butts in GSK case, the Canal killer solve! Anytime I read an article on Zodiac there is mention of GSK genealogy solve. Anyways at least Zodiac investigators jumped right on that! Some justice for many more may be coming soon...

I'm familiar with that Canal Killer case.  That prick lived in Sunnyslope when I lived downtown on Central, not too far.  I had an ex-girlfriend who's father had a house a few blocks from him, and used to get care at the hospital there off Dunlap.  I have no doubt he was responsible for other crimes based on the violence he engaged in while he lived for a short time in Washington State.  I think he'll eventually be linked to additional victims.

Right now cases are popping off right and left because of ancestry searches.  Although it took Holes a bit of time to finally try it out, at the very least he did do it and did get it solved.  I think his biggest mistake was the same one other detectives made, which was to just not follow the evidence to where it led.  It led back to it very possibly being a cop.  I made incorrect assumptions myself that the cop angle had been FULLY investigated already, almost redundantly over the years, and I was also wrong.  No municipality took it upon themselves to eliminate every LE official in ALL of the jurisdictions where/near crimes occurred.  They also didn't all agree on whether VR and EAR were the same people.  Easy correlational analyses would've turned up JJD, but nobody at that time was educated on how to do anything beyond basic cross-referencing.  

We have to remember that even the FBI assisted on the case, and they also didn't pursue the LE connection and do any process-of-elimination vetting, or correlational analyses.  When I used SPSS software on research project data in college, I just plugged in my data sets, ran analyses of everything against everything, and ended-up with a matrix showing relationships and to what degree some variables were related to other ones.  Although small police departments didn't have computers back then and software as quick as what we have today, the FBI had statisticians who could've done the same examination of LE/municipal employees (because of the paint chips evidence, etc.) by hand.  With some computer calculations, JJD would've come up had they run data under the assumption an officer was possibly involved, and Visalia and Sacramento were related areas.  When it was later discovered EAR was also killing people in Southern CA, they could've analyzed the cops who lived in all 3 areas on the timeline, or even just the two areas, north and south.  Just doing north and south you get a small list, then from there you look for behavioral indicators in their files from their work history.  If those are incomplete, you look at criminal records, physical traits, and your list is short.  JJD would've come up, and should've.  The technology was available in the early 2000's for correlational analyses at every jurisdiction where crimes occurred.

Everyone seemed to miss it, but it is understandable based on the LE culture and social code of looking the other way.  The FBI had no excuse though, they should've done a better job analyzing possible avenues using statistics to eliminate cops and municipal workers with access to fleet vehicles.  The evidence was very very good evidence, but it was dismissed by everyone.  Many of us here dismissed it as well because we assumed it couldn't be a cop because all the cops had been checked out.  I was sure the FBI eliminated everyone because they were on the case.  Obviously they didn't do jack *.  I think the case teaches a valuable lesson though on assumptions and re-checking information, as well as that departments need to stop destroying evidence, reports, tip sheets, interviews, and even rape kits, regardless of the age.  Even police employment records should be maintained.  The investigative value is impossible to know ahead of time, so it needs to be preserved.  After a certain date, it should be made public for private investigators to sift through online, or privately pay to have tested if the municipality doesn't have the money.

[griswold]

David Fincher should do a movie titled "GSK: The Night Predator", with the same attention to detail  he provided in Zodiac, and include a peripheral story by casting Robert Downey Jr. as Paul Avery, reporter for the Sacramento Bee. I'm referring to episode 19 titled "Nancy", from the 12/26/75.com podcast website. It would be a poignant gesture and provide an addition to the public closure for both cases. What do you think?

[mtdiablodeathmachine]

I’d almost feel safe betting my house that this case is never solved.

[griswold]

Dec 8, 2018 16:07:55 GMT mtdiablodeathmachine said:

I’d almost feel safe betting my house that this case is never solved.

DeAngelo was arrested, and you seem to have missed the info provided , please reread the post

[Deleted]

Dec 8, 2018 19:59:17 GMT griswold said:

Dec 8, 2018 16:07:55 GMT mtdiablodeathmachine said:

I’d almost feel safe betting my house that this case is never solved.

DeAngelo was arrested, and you seem to have missed the info provided , please reread the post

Im sure the poster knows JJD was arrested
You don't have to tell them that. The poster is not responding to your post. It's obvious he or she is just responding to the thread topic and not anything JJD related.

[mtdiablodeathmachine]

Dec 8, 2018 19:59:17 GMT griswold said:

Dec 8, 2018 16:07:55 GMT mtdiablodeathmachine said:

I’d almost feel safe betting my house that this case is never solved.

DeAngelo was arrested, and you seem to have missed the info provided , please reread the post

I wasn’t referring to JJD/EARONS. This thread isn’t about that?

[alexenjie]

If you are not a California felon with DNA in that database or some other criminal database then you need to have family that is interested in genealogy/family history. Some people are adopted, some people have small families or even large families where no one cares about where they originated from. Many people got spooked by the way DNA was tied to JJD and decided not to spit into that bottle for Ancestry.com and find out where they came from. Who knows how invasive having everyone's DNA in databases around the world can come back to haunt everyone if it is abused in the future? I have a good friend who was adopted from Eritrea when she was 2 years old who couldn't wait to find out her family background until JJD was arrested and now that kit sits unused in her house. So lots of cold cases won't be solved until people feel safe about having their DNA, their families DNA, out in databases anywhere and I really can't say that I feel differently.

[sinisterurge]

Dec 8, 2018 15:16:26 GMT griswold said:

David Fincher should do a movie titled "GSK: The Night Predator", with the same attention to detail  he provided in Zodiac, and include a peripheral story by casting Robert Downey Jr. as Paul Avery, reporter for the Sacramento Bee. I'm referring to episode 19 titled "Nancy", from the 12/26/75.com podcast website. It would be a poignant gesture and provide an addition to the public closure for both cases. What do you think?

You got my vote!

[faser41]

Dec 8, 2018 21:37:49 GMT mtdiablodeathmachine said:

Dec 8, 2018 19:59:17 GMT griswold said:

DeAngelo was arrested, and you seem to have missed the info provided , please reread the post

I wasn’t referring to JJD/EARONS. This thread isn’t about that?


hey there mtdiablodeathmachine take it fwiw but although I’m not a total newbie here, I still often have to check that I am on a thread I think I am on, due to the way this particular website often confuses me with the melding together of two different threads, the melding together of two sub forums (jjd and general), the many apparent posters with duplicate, or several different screen names, or accounts, the many members whose status is deleted, ( not sure why...), the apparent cross referencing of sub forums not related to ear/jjd, not to mention the myriad rabbit holes of so many threads.......in spite of all this there are some seriously interesting and dedicated members here, who I never forget to follow first and foremost when setting out on a thread which I’m interested in, fwiw.

[griswold]

Dec 8, 2018 21:37:49 GMT mtdiablodeathmachine said:

Dec 8, 2018 19:59:17 GMT griswold said:

DeAngelo was arrested, and you seem to have missed the info provided , please reread the post

I wasn’t referring to JJD/EARONS. This thread isn’t about that?

What I meant was, the info I've provided on page 77 of the Zodiac Killer thread on this board. You are a furry toy with a bell inside, and I am a giant cat, batting you around. Please forgive my years of frustration regarding this matter. *winking at faser

[f1guyus]

Will the DNA search procedure work in the Zodiac case?
I hope so. But just like EAR it depends on having a good DNA sample to work with. Does LE have that?

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2018 17:10:20 GMT f1guyus said:

Will the DNA search procedure work in the Zodiac case?
I hope so. But just like EAR it depends on having a good DNA sample to work with. Does LE have that?

I think at the higher levels of LE they know who the Zodiac was----it was Ted Kaczinski. Because he's already locked up for life, and for other reasons, they don't want to mess with it. 

It is questionable whether they actually have Zodiac DNA or not. I guess they have some partial DNA from stamps and envelopes which may or not be the Z's DNA. It is mere speculation that the Z may have murdered CCB, so the hair found there is probably irrelevant.

What they could do is test the CCB hair DNA against the envelope DNA. They have not done this yet, IIRC.

[andrew]

they dont have dna or usable dna and the dna they have they dont even know if its his so right now id say we wont find out who the zodiac is anytime soon if ever

[walter]

Dec 10, 2018 18:15:20 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Dec 10, 2018 17:10:20 GMT f1guyus said:

Will the DNA search procedure work in the Zodiac case?
I hope so. But just like EAR it depends on having a good DNA sample to work with. Does LE have that?

I think at the higher levels of LE they know who the Zodiac was----it was Ted Kaczinski. Because he's already locked up for life, and for other reasons, they don't want to mess with it. 

It is questionable whether they actually have Zodiac DNA or not. I guess they have some partial DNA from stamps and envelopes which may or not be the Z's DNA. It is mere speculation that the Z may have murdered CCB, so the hair found there is probably irrelevant.

What they could do is test the CCB hair DNA against the envelope DNA. They have not done this yet, IIRC.

If they thought it was TK for even half a second they would be all over that.  It would be an enormous story for them and bring a lot of attention to the police department for closing that case.  It's impossible to under sell what it would mean to definitively solve a case on the level of the Zodiac.  Any police department would be screaming from the top of their lungs.

Maybe Jack the Ripper would be bigger but that's it.

The real issue is that it pretty obviously was not TK and they really have no idea who it was.  It is entirely unclear who wrote which letters and who did which killings. Was it one person?  Was it more than one person who just wanted to connect their crime to this persona?  Was it the police linking these cases incorrectly and nut jobs writing in who had nothing to do with the killings? 

I do not follow that case as closely but it's pretty unclear if any more than one single letter was actually written by anyone actually connected to any killing.  Whomever killed Stine sent in the letter(s) that contained pieces of his shirt.  Other than that the case is a giant train wreck that makes no sense.