Basic Information about the Colonial Parkway Murders

[billthom56]

Dec 9, 2021 18:09:16 GMT mustangman said:

Dec 8, 2021 17:57:40 GMT billthom56 said:

Zebra:

The FBI believes (as do I) that the attempt to set Cathy's Honda Civic on fire was an attempt to obscure evidence. Keep in mind this is October 1986, before trace evidence and DNA were in use by law enforcement.

When the car failed to ignite with the diesel fuel (possibly kerosene), he pushed the Honda over the edge of the grassy parking area at the Cheatham Annex Overlook and down the embankment towards the York River. As others have pointed out, cigarettes and matches were found in the grass of the overlook parking area.

It does appear that he moved the car with the bodies in it in order to disguise where the actual murders took place, which may be at the much more private Ringfield Plantation picnic area less than a mile away to the NW (most likely, in my opinion) or the Bellfield Plantation picnic area (closer, less privacy, no water view) which is about a half mile SE.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

Would a 1st time or experienced killer take the time or even want to risk moving the bodies/cars from the original murder scene when both the Ringfield & Bellfield picnic areas offered much more cover from any witnesses and move the vehicles to much more visible turnouts on the Parkway?   

Mustang:

All I can tell you is what the various FBI and VSP investigators and profilers have said to me: the decisions made by an offender are designed to meet the needs of the offender.  The investigators believe that Cathy and Becky were killed elsewhere on the Colonial Parkway and then the killer moved the Honda to the Cheatham Annex Overlook where the car was found 2.5 days later.

One of the signatures in the Colonial Parkway Murders is the movement of the vehicles (and possible staging) post mortem. So whether the murders are related or the work of a copycat, these decisions to move the vehicles meet the need of the offenders.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

[mustangman]

Dec 10, 2021 21:01:05 GMT billthom56 said:

Dec 9, 2021 18:09:16 GMT mustangman said:

Would a 1st time or experienced killer take the time or even want to risk moving the bodies/cars from the original murder scene when both the Ringfield & Bellfield picnic areas offered much more cover from any witnesses and move the vehicles to much more visible turnouts on the Parkway?   

Mustang:

All I can tell you is what the various FBI and VSP investigators and profilers have said to me: the decisions made by an offender are designed to meet the needs of the offender.  The investigators believe that Cathy and Becky were killed elsewhere on the Colonial Parkway and then the killer moved the Honda to the Cheatham Annex Overlook where the car was found 2.5 days later.

One of the signatures in the Colonial Parkway Murders is the movement of the vehicles (and possible staging) post mortem. So whether the murders are related or the work of a copycat, these decisions to move the vehicles meet the need of the offenders.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

Have the investigators ever told you their suspicions of why the killer had the "need" to relocate Cathy's car or Keith's to those turnouts on the Parkway?  it just seems like such a huge risk of being caught moving/driving the cars.  What would have been the killers need to do this?   

[tosh]

Dec 11, 2021 0:32:57 GMT mustangman said:

Dec 10, 2021 21:01:05 GMT billthom56 said:

Mustang:

All I can tell you is what the various FBI and VSP investigators and profilers have said to me: the decisions made by an offender are designed to meet the needs of the offender.  The investigators believe that Cathy and Becky were killed elsewhere on the Colonial Parkway and then the killer moved the Honda to the Cheatham Annex Overlook where the car was found 2.5 days later.

One of the signatures in the Colonial Parkway Murders is the movement of the vehicles (and possible staging) post mortem. So whether the murders are related or the work of a copycat, these decisions to move the vehicles meet the need of the offenders.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

Have the investigators ever told you their suspicions of why the killer had the "need" to relocate Cathy's car or Keith's to those turnouts on the Parkway?  it just seems like such a huge risk of being caught moving/driving the cars.  What would have been the killers need to do this?   

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

[dickere]

Dec 11, 2021 6:57:44 GMT tosh said:

Dec 11, 2021 0:32:57 GMT mustangman said:

Have the investigators ever told you their suspicions of why the killer had the "need" to relocate Cathy's car or Keith's to those turnouts on the Parkway?  it just seems like such a huge risk of being caught moving/driving the cars.  What would have been the killers need to do this?   

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

Well, in the 'first' case, if the car was moved it was followed by an attempt to push it into the water. Remember the Bluefield case prior has similarities to this though.

In later cases, perhaps based on those experiences, the focus seems to have been on moving the victims away from their vehicles instead. Maybe this was 'easier' to accomplish. I can see the pattern though.

[mustangman]

Dec 11, 2021 6:57:44 GMT tosh said:

Dec 11, 2021 0:32:57 GMT mustangman said:

Have the investigators ever told you their suspicions of why the killer had the "need" to relocate Cathy's car or Keith's to those turnouts on the Parkway?  it just seems like such a huge risk of being caught moving/driving the cars.  What would have been the killers need to do this?   

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

Not much evidence, that has so far proved invaluable, was found at either Cathy or Keith's car's that could tell us who the killer was.   And if the cars hadn't been moved maybe the only extra evidence investigators would've found may be the victims blood or at least know where the murders happened?  but even knowing this wouldn't have lead to the killer.  So in MHO hiding the original crime scene wasn't the reason for moving the cars.  The killer wanted the victims vehicles to be found, and placed the cars in a location where they would be easily seen.  

[mustangman]

Dec 11, 2021 13:53:55 GMT dickere said:

Dec 11, 2021 6:57:44 GMT tosh said:

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

Well, in the 'first' case, if the car was moved it was followed by an attempt to push it into the water. Remember the Bluefield case prior has similarities to this though.

In later cases, perhaps based on those experiences, the focus seems to have been on moving the victims away from their vehicles instead. Maybe this was 'easier' to accomplish. I can see the pattern though.

But he only pushed the car after or before trying to set it a blaze.  He wasn't afraid of Cathy's car being found quickly and he removed the only evidence he cared about "the rope" he tied them up with...  why remove the rope if you intend on setting the car a blaze?   IMHO he was all about causing a "grand spectacle" by setting Cathy's car on fire, almost like he was trying to make a statement to someone? 

[mustangman]

Dec 11, 2021 13:53:55 GMT dickere said:

Dec 11, 2021 6:57:44 GMT tosh said:

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

Well, in the 'first' case, if the car was moved it was followed by an attempt to push it into the water. Remember the Bluefield case prior has similarities to this though.

In later cases, perhaps based on those experiences, the focus seems to have been on moving the victims away from their vehicles instead. Maybe this was 'easier' to accomplish. I can see the pattern though.

No one in LE has linked the Bluefield case to the CPK murders...  that's speculation...    IMHO he moved the victims vehicles as a way to get himself back to his own get away car or a safe place where he could hide out or where he dumped the vehicles was just a random location he knew of or if he had an accomplice they were places he could quickly get away from?  

[cleopatra]

Dec 11, 2021 6:57:44 GMT tosh said:

Dec 11, 2021 0:32:57 GMT mustangman said:

Have the investigators ever told you their suspicions of why the killer had the "need" to relocate Cathy's car or Keith's to those turnouts on the Parkway?  it just seems like such a huge risk of being caught moving/driving the cars.  What would have been the killers need to do this?   

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

That's my theory.  I suspect the killer knew how important the actual murder sights were to investigators.  Crucial evidence could be found there.
I believe that reason is first and foremost.  Followed by having less evidence to work with. 

 

[cleopatra]

Dec 11, 2021 15:59:36 GMT mustangman said:

Dec 11, 2021 13:53:55 GMT dickere said:

Well, in the 'first' case, if the car was moved it was followed by an attempt to push it into the water. Remember the Bluefield case prior has similarities to this though.

In later cases, perhaps based on those experiences, the focus seems to have been on moving the victims away from their vehicles instead. Maybe this was 'easier' to accomplish. I can see the pattern though.

No one in LE has linked the Bluefield case to the CPK murders...  that's speculation...    IMHO he moved the victims vehicles as a way to get himself back to his own get away car or a safe place where he could hide out or where he dumped the vehicles was just a random location he knew of or if he had an accomplice they were places he could quickly get away from?  

Those are good theories,  but I still suspect the killer hid a getaway car, boat or motorcycle under the bridges.  

He could have moved residences in between crimes.  I think he lived off R614 in White Marsh when Laura was murdered. 

[cleopatra]

Dec 11, 2021 15:45:23 GMT mustangman said:

Dec 11, 2021 6:57:44 GMT tosh said:

Would it be to separate the vehicles from the scene of the crime and cause more confusion for investigators and less evidence to work with?

Not much evidence, that has so far proved invaluable, was found at either Cathy or Keith's car's that could tell us who the killer was.   And if the cars hadn't been moved maybe the only extra evidence investigators would've found may be the victims blood or at least know where the murders happened?  but even knowing this wouldn't have lead to the killer.  So in MHO hiding the original crime scene wasn't the reason for moving the cars.  The killer wanted the victims vehicles to be found, and placed the cars in a location where they would be easily seen.  

Not just easily seen,  but ithey would catch the attention of the early morning patrolman.  

David's and Keith's vehicles were parked on federal property where they'd be tagged with a tow warning. 

David Lauer's car was parked in a Trucks Only zone, right under a NO PARKING sign.

[dickere]

Dec 11, 2021 15:59:36 GMT mustangman said:

Dec 11, 2021 13:53:55 GMT dickere said:

Well, in the 'first' case, if the car was moved it was followed by an attempt to push it into the water. Remember the Bluefield case prior has similarities to this though.

In later cases, perhaps based on those experiences, the focus seems to have been on moving the victims away from their vehicles instead. Maybe this was 'easier' to accomplish. I can see the pattern though.

No one in LE has linked the Bluefield case to the CPK murders...  that's speculation...    IMHO he moved the victims vehicles as a way to get himself back to his own get away car or a safe place where he could hide out or where he dumped the vehicles was just a random location he knew of or if he had an accomplice they were places he could quickly get away from?  

Most of what's posted is speculation, yours and mine included. That's fine though.

[mustangman]

Dec 11, 2021 19:34:01 GMT dickere said:

Dec 11, 2021 15:59:36 GMT mustangman said:

No one in LE has linked the Bluefield case to the CPK murders...  that's speculation...    IMHO he moved the victims vehicles as a way to get himself back to his own get away car or a safe place where he could hide out or where he dumped the vehicles was just a random location he knew of or if he had an accomplice they were places he could quickly get away from?  

Most of what's posted is speculation, yours and mine included. That's fine though.

Right, but your trying to link the CPK to the Bluefield case when no one in LE has done this...  speculation is fine, but I will stick to speculation on the CPK and known facts.

[njen]

Dec 11, 2021 16:50:09 GMT cleopatra said:

Dec 11, 2021 15:59:36 GMT mustangman said:

No one in LE has linked the Bluefield case to the CPK murders...  that's speculation...    IMHO he moved the victims vehicles as a way to get himself back to his own get away car or a safe place where he could hide out or where he dumped the vehicles was just a random location he knew of or if he had an accomplice they were places he could quickly get away from?  

Those are good theories,  but I still suspect the killer hid a getaway car, boat or motorcycle under the bridges.  

He could have moved residences in between crimes.  I think he lived off R614 in White Marsh when Laura was murdered. 

 Or he worked at Liberty/Advance Security in that area.

[cleopatra]

Dec 11, 2021 21:07:58 GMT njen said:

Dec 11, 2021 16:50:09 GMT cleopatra said:

Those are good theories,  but I still suspect the killer hid a getaway car, boat or motorcycle under the bridges.  

He could have moved residences in between crimes.  I think he lived off R614 in White Marsh when Laura was murdered. 

 Or he worked at Liberty/Advance Security in that area.

He could have worked at Liberty and been on his way home.  White Marsh is 7 minutes away by car from the Tidewater Motel. 

[cleopatra]

Dec 11, 2021 19:43:49 GMT mustangman said:

Dec 11, 2021 19:34:01 GMT dickere said:

Most of what's posted is speculation, yours and mine included. That's fine though.

Right, but your trying to link the CPK to the Bluefield case when no one in LE has done this...  speculation is fine, but I will stick to speculation on the CPK and known facts.

NO ONE in LE in Visalia, except for Detective McGowen, believed the EAR in Sacramento was the Visalia Ransacker who murdered Professor Snelling.

NO ONE in LE in Northern California believed the EAR was the Visalia Rancacker or the Original Nightstalker in Southern California.  

NO ONE in LE in Southern California believed the 10  people (8 couples and 2 lone woman alone in their homes) were murdered by the same killer.  LE suspected one woman's husband of being her killer and they convicted the business partner of one of the  male victims for his and his wife's murders.

No one, except Shelby, believed the EAR murdered the Maggiorie couple while they were walking their dog.

Chief Willick never suspected the cop he fired for shoplifting dog repellant and a hammer in a store, situated on the same street 2 EAR attacks took place, was the EAR or the prowler outside his daughters window one night.

And, NO ONE in LE ever seriously considered this evil, violent monster was possibly in LE.

The EAR used a log and metal sprinkler head to bludgeon to death some victims. He used knives in many attacks, he used a gun which he fired warning shots and to murder some victims, he killed couples and lone women, he took 2 victims away in a car then brought them back home, he tied some victims but some he did not tie others. 

That killer - the Original Night Stalker AKA the EAR AKA the Visalia Ransacker, evaded capture for sooooooooo loooooooong, because he was LE and so he knew what to do to cover his tracks and remain unapprehended.

I think the CPK is similar to Deangelo. He knew how to cover his tracks because he is probably LE. And just like with D'Angelo and many other serial killers, no one in his family or circle of friends have the slightest clue he is a madman killer.