The Zodiac Killer

[morf13]

May 7, 2017 20:28:47 GMT @endoftheworld said:

May 7, 2017 18:36:03 GMT morf13 said:

I guess anybody on this EAR/ONS forum should stop hunting for him, if you have any suspects, just "let them be", unless they can be determined to be involved. Seriously dude? On forums like this one where amateurs can discuss the cases and be armchair detectives trying to identify the guilty party, looking at POI's and discussing them comes with the territory. If we are hunting for the bad guy, do we not have to weed thru POI's?

Zodiac's writing was discovered in the RCC library. Zodiac was witnessed fleeing a scene and a description was given resulting in a sketch. Are we supposed to just throw out the ONLY Zodiac suspect in almost  50 years verified to be in that RCC library,one that happens to look identical to the sketch? I almost don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by being on a forum like this that is seeking the person responsible for terrible crimes we discuss if you want to skip looking at the most logical POI's

He's not a logical suspect for the Zodiac killing. Too tall, too bulky, and never north of Santa Cruz. Maybe you should start a new thread: "The Cheri Jo Bates Murder". Then nobody would dispute the fact that he may be a suspect. Although the Riverside cops, for some reason, never did think so.

So, we should stop looking at the guy who looks identical to the Zodiac sketch that was in the RCC library where Zodiac's writing was found(the only Zodiac suspect ever verified to be in there)?? All because we haven't yet found a link north of Santa Cruz? Whose Brother thought he was Zodiac.....Okay, let's pack it in. Endoftheworld says we can dismiss him so case closed, next suspect 

[Deleted]

May 7, 2017 23:08:29 GMT morf13 said:

May 7, 2017 20:28:47 GMT @endoftheworld said:

He's not a logical suspect for the Zodiac killing. Too tall, too bulky, and never north of Santa Cruz. Maybe you should start a new thread: "The Cheri Jo Bates Murder". Then nobody would dispute the fact that he may be a suspect. Although the Riverside cops, for some reason, never did think so.

So, we should stop looking at the guy who looks identical to the Zodiac sketch that was in the RCC library where Zodiac's writing was found(the only Zodiac suspect ever verified to be in there)?? All because we haven't yet found a link north of Santa Cruz? Whose Brother thought he was Zodiac.....Okay, let's pack it in. Endoftheworld says we can dismiss him so case closed, next suspect 

I'm glad you have finally seen the light!

[morf13]

May 7, 2017 23:12:42 GMT @endoftheworld said:

May 7, 2017 23:08:29 GMT morf13 said:

So, we should stop looking at the guy who looks identical to the Zodiac sketch that was in the RCC library where Zodiac's writing was found(the only Zodiac suspect ever verified to be in there)?? All because we haven't yet found a link north of Santa Cruz? Whose Brother thought he was Zodiac.....Okay, let's pack it in. Endoftheworld says we can dismiss him so case closed, next suspect 

I'm glad you have finally seen the light!

I've definitely seen something, I wouldn't call it the light

[Mitchell]

May 7, 2017 18:36:03 GMT morf13 said:

May 6, 2017 10:22:36 GMT Mitchell said:

It is absolutely a cause worth fighting for. That's a far cry from what had been expressed here. Let Sullivan be. Until it can be established that he was involved in some way it's just rumor mongering.

I guess anybody on this EAR/ONS forum should stop hunting for him, if you have any suspects, just "let them be", unless they can be determined to be involved. Seriously dude? On forums like this one where amateurs can discuss the cases and be armchair detectives trying to identify the guilty party, looking at POI's and discussing them comes with the territory. If we are hunting for the bad guy, do we not have to weed thru POI's?

Zodiac's writing was discovered in the RCC library. Zodiac was witnessed fleeing a scene and a description was given resulting in a sketch. Are we supposed to just throw out the ONLY Zodiac suspect in almost  50 years verified to be in that RCC library,one that happens to look identical to the sketch? I almost don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by being on a forum like this that is seeking the person responsible for terrible crimes we discuss if you want to skip looking at the most logical POI's

Seriously. Until it can be established that there is a tangible link between the "suspect" and the crime. You are using and besmirching the real name of a person who lived a sad life and died based on nothing but some trivial anecdotal nonsense.

[batman]

May 7, 2017 18:36:03 GMT morf13 said:

May 6, 2017 10:22:36 GMT Mitchell said:

It is absolutely a cause worth fighting for. That's a far cry from what had been expressed here. Let Sullivan be. Until it can be established that he was involved in some way it's just rumor mongering.

I guess anybody on this EAR/ONS forum should stop hunting for him, if you have any suspects, just "let them be", unless they can be determined to be involved. Seriously dude? On forums like this one where amateurs can discuss the cases and be armchair detectives trying to identify the guilty party, looking at POI's and discussing them comes with the territory. If we are hunting for the bad guy, do we not have to weed thru POI's?

Zodiac's writing was discovered in the RCC library. Zodiac was witnessed fleeing a scene and a description was given resulting in a sketch. Are we supposed to just throw out the ONLY Zodiac suspect in almost  50 years verified to be in that RCC library,one that happens to look identical to the sketch? I almost don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by being on a forum like this that is seeking the person responsible for terrible crimes we discuss if you want to skip looking at the most logical POI's

It's completely obvious that the task to find EAR and to find out more about Ross Sullivan are using the same criteria. Namely, if you were connected to the investigation at the time, then you need to be looked at again. Hunting a Psychopath by Shelby exacerbates this point.

You have people coming here saying don't look at Ross Sullivan (like that's ever going to work, ever)... but then they go back to the EAR case ignoring their own criteria and going much further with EAR POIs than anyone here is with Ross Sullivan. Much, much, more.

Ross Sullivan was officially a POI in the Bates murder case (unsolved). Plenty of EAR POIs and calls to have them DNA tested are not official POIs. They are web sleuthing POIs. Unless they have a criminal record, how are they the same as Ross Sullivan? They aren't. Ross Sullivan was an official POI and also was convicted of our serious crimes.

So we know this line of failed reasoning to ask people to stop looking into Ross Sullivan is philosophically bankrupt in this forum. What different results do they expect by saying the same thing over and over? That all this information on Ross Sullivan which doesn't point away from him as an official POI is going to grow wings and fly away?

The cat's out of the bag and they are complaining that someone opened the bag. Keep complaining, but the cat still runs free.

I honestly can't understand why some people here are so emotionally attached to dissing you for looking into Ross Sullivan? We know they can't argue that he is just some sad person, because he was an official POI... and may indeed be a sad person too. Some of them here seem to make the claim that Ross's location at all times is known so can be ruled out of the Zodiac killings. We know this to be bogus.

The Riverside botched investigation sympathizers seem to have no qualms siding with an investigation that apparently rejects the science of DNA testing for the Bates murder. Their POI, despite being cleared by DNA, is still their prime suspect. So to reject looking into Ross Sullivan can only be some sort of complicity in that nonsense.

Anyway if you say 'Don't look into Ross' anymore enough times and click your heels then an alternative reality occurs were Ross wasn't an official POI, isn't the library staffs suspect, is no longer dangerous, doesn't look like the Zodiac composites, and DNA rejection the norm.

[Deleted]

May 8, 2017 10:03:08 GMT batman said:

May 7, 2017 18:36:03 GMT morf13 said:

I guess anybody on this EAR/ONS forum should stop hunting for him, if you have any suspects, just "let them be", unless they can be determined to be involved. Seriously dude? On forums like this one where amateurs can discuss the cases and be armchair detectives trying to identify the guilty party, looking at POI's and discussing them comes with the territory. If we are hunting for the bad guy, do we not have to weed thru POI's?

Zodiac's writing was discovered in the RCC library. Zodiac was witnessed fleeing a scene and a description was given resulting in a sketch. Are we supposed to just throw out the ONLY Zodiac suspect in almost  50 years verified to be in that RCC library,one that happens to look identical to the sketch? I almost don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by being on a forum like this that is seeking the person responsible for terrible crimes we discuss if you want to skip looking at the most logical POI's

It's completely obvious that the task to find EAR and to find out more about Ross Sullivan are using the same criteria. Namely, if you were connected to the investigation at the time, then you need to be looked at again. Hunting a Psychopath by Shelby exacerbates this point.

You have people coming here saying don't look at Ross Sullivan (like that's ever going to work, ever)... but then they go back to the EAR case ignoring their own criteria and going much further with EAR POIs than anyone here is with Ross Sullivan. Much, much, more.

Ross Sullivan was officially a POI in the Bates murder case (unsolved). Plenty of EAR POIs and calls to have them DNA tested are not official POIs. They are web sleuthing POIs. Unless they have a criminal record, how are they the same as Ross Sullivan? They aren't. Ross Sullivan was an official POI and also was convicted of our serious crimes.

So we know this line of failed reasoning to ask people to stop looking into Ross Sullivan is philosophically bankrupt in this forum. What different results do they expect by saying the same thing over and over? That all this information on Ross Sullivan which doesn't point away from him as an official POI is going to grow wings and fly away?

The cat's out of the bag and they are complaining that someone opened the bag. Keep complaining, but the cat still runs free.

I honestly can't understand why some people here are so emotionally attached to dissing you for looking into Ross Sullivan? We know they can't argue that he is just some sad person, because he was an official POI... and may indeed be a sad person too. Some of them here seem to make the claim that Ross's location at all times is known so can be ruled out of the Zodiac killings. We know this to be bogus.

The Riverside botched investigation sympathizers seem to have no qualms siding with an investigation that apparently rejects the science of DNA testing for the Bates murder. Their POI, despite being cleared by DNA, is still their prime suspect. So to reject looking into Ross Sullivan can only be some sort of complicity in that nonsense.

Anyway if you say 'Don't look into Ross' anymore enough times and click your heels then an alternative reality occurs were Ross wasn't an official POI, isn't the library staffs suspect, is no longer dangerous, doesn't look like the Zodiac composites, and DNA rejection the norm.

Conversely, if you click your heels and say this guy is the Z enough times maybe somebody will believe you. They shouldn't. People can make disguises, and they can lose weight, but they can't shrink three or four inches.

[batman]

Disguised to look like Ross Sullivan who was an official Bates POI.



Keep it up. You are doing Morfs work for him with gems like this.

[morf13]

May 8, 2017 3:16:14 GMT Mitchell said:

May 7, 2017 18:36:03 GMT morf13 said:

I guess anybody on this EAR/ONS forum should stop hunting for him, if you have any suspects, just "let them be", unless they can be determined to be involved. Seriously dude? On forums like this one where amateurs can discuss the cases and be armchair detectives trying to identify the guilty party, looking at POI's and discussing them comes with the territory. If we are hunting for the bad guy, do we not have to weed thru POI's?

Zodiac's writing was discovered in the RCC library. Zodiac was witnessed fleeing a scene and a description was given resulting in a sketch. Are we supposed to just throw out the ONLY Zodiac suspect in almost  50 years verified to be in that RCC library,one that happens to look identical to the sketch? I almost don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by being on a forum like this that is seeking the person responsible for terrible crimes we discuss if you want to skip looking at the most logical POI's

Seriously. Until it can be established that there is a tangible link between the "suspect" and the crime. You are using and besmirching the real name of a person who lived a sad life and died based on nothing but some trivial anecdotal nonsense.

What are you talking about? Ross knew Cheri Bates. Ross's Brother suspected he was Zodiac. Ross worked in the RCC library where Zodiac's writing was found. Ross looked identical to the Zodiac sketch. "trivial anecdotal nonsense"?? Really? How you wouldn't want to see this person properly ruled out I think shows a lack of investigative skills on your part. If you are ruling him out based solely on a height discrepancy, that's pretty foolish. I've already said the major hurdle is a lack of him being placed in Vallejo,Napa,or SF. If he was never there he couldn't be zodiac,that is obvious. Does that mean it shouldn't be verified? Why would his own brother suspect he was SF Bay's 'Zodiac Killer' if Ross never was in the SF Bay area? I think his brother likely knew more than us as far as where Ross was or wasn't and he had some reason to suspect him

[morf13]

@endoftheworld & Mitchell I simply do not have the time or energy to debate you about Ross,Cheri Jo Bates,or Zodiac. In the end,your opinions don't really mean anything to me, but your reasoning of wanting to clear Ross seems to be based mostly on height alone, which is pretty foolish. Follow the evidence to the RCC library. See who was in there. Did anybody look just like the Zodiac sketch??Well,one guy did we know of...Ross Sullivan. Was he taller than most Zodiac descriptions?Well, yes. Who were the witnesses to Zodiac's height? Mike Mageau seated in a car at night with a flashlight shining in his eyes and being pumped full of lead. Was he a great witness to judge Zodiac's height? Bryan Hartnell at Lake Berryessa saw Zodiac,but he himself commented he was a poor judge of height due to his own extreme height. Kids at Stine murder scene saw Zodiac from across the street on a second floor level. Were they the best judges of height? Officer Fouke while driving drove by Zodiac and looked out of his moving police car,was he the best judge of height? My point is, did any one of these people have a face to face head to head encounter with Zodiac? The answer is no! So how are people seated in cars & from upstairs windows the best judges of height?? That's what you are both trying to rule Ross out on, and it's a mistake. The best witness of height without exception is Hartnell who stood close to Zodiac for a while,but again,he himself stated he was a poor judge of height. Also, a few girls very close to the Lake Berryessa crime scene saw a mysterious man that day. He was described as 6ft2,the same heght as Ross. This man wore clothing similar to what Zodiac wore,he may or may not have been zodiac,and despite efforts he was never identified. Police wanted him to come forward and he never did. He is a POI and his height is 6ft2 same as Ross. So if you are looking at all possible descriptions of Zodiac,include this guy in your data,don't be selective

[Mitchell]

May 8, 2017 14:23:35 GMT morf13 said:

May 8, 2017 3:16:14 GMT Mitchell said:

Seriously. Until it can be established that there is a tangible link between the "suspect" and the crime. You are using and besmirching the real name of a person who lived a sad life and died based on nothing but some trivial anecdotal nonsense.

What are you talking about? Ross knew Cheri Bates. Ross's Brother suspected he was Zodiac. Ross worked in the RCC library where Zodiac's writing was found. Ross looked identical to the Zodiac sketch. "trivial anecdotal nonsense"?? Really? How you wouldn't want to see this person properly ruled out I think shows a lack of investigative skills on your part. If you are ruling him out based solely on a height discrepancy, that's pretty foolish. I've already said the major hurdle is a lack of him being placed in Vallejo,Napa,or SF. If he was never there he couldn't be zodiac,that is obvious. Does that mean it shouldn't be verified? Why would his own brother suspect he was SF Bay's 'Zodiac Killer' if Ross never was in the SF Bay area? I think his brother likely knew more than us as far as where Ross was or wasn't and he had some reason to suspect him

I never said that I didn't want to see him properly ruled out. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Beyond that, most of your statements are either inaccurate or embellishments.

None of the writings can conclusively be proven to be by Z. There is no such thing as a match where handwriting is concerned. The best that can be hoped for is consistent with. With the incredibly small sample size available from the author of the Bates letters, the lack of exemplars, even that is impossible. The desktop poem is farce. Just plain old silly.

He's too fat, too tall, and can't be placed in the areas where the murders took place. You can't even claim he knew Bates. You have the word of one person. All of this is based on the recollection of one person.

[batman]

It is interesting that the Paul Stine murder seems to indicate that the Zodiac wanted to acquire evidence that he was the writer of the letters and so put Stine's bloody shirt into a package. It was an exact forensic match. So blanket claims that even the Zodiac killer can't be connected to the letters can be dismissed. We can and based on the shirt fragment letter match (find what share commonalities) with other letters.

Then we have the Zodiac handwriting on the car door of the Lake B attack. The writing on the door matches the letters. Matching means to share commonalities. That's it. 'Exact' match is another matter, like the shirt piece. So Zodiac has done plenty to demonstrate he is writing the letters.

Any writing found anywhere with known Zodiac mistakes in spelling are trivial, sure. However writing found in connection with a murder that stands out should be looked into if it relates to the Zodiac case. Bates is related due to the fact the Zodiac wrote about her. For Bates there is quite a bit of writing evidence here and there. From the letters people got, to the finding of the desktop poem. What do we find? The spelling mistakes that the Zodiac is known to make. That is not trivial. That is where you need to start questioning coincidences. Coincidental composite. Coincidental misspelling. Coincidental writings? Coincidental stalker at the library looks like the Zodiac? Maybe they are, but its up to the investigator to find something that points away from this person and not at them the more you look into it.

[morf13]

May 8, 2017 14:55:09 GMT Mitchell said:

May 8, 2017 14:23:35 GMT morf13 said:

What are you talking about? Ross knew Cheri Bates. Ross's Brother suspected he was Zodiac. Ross worked in the RCC library where Zodiac's writing was found. Ross looked identical to the Zodiac sketch. "trivial anecdotal nonsense"?? Really? How you wouldn't want to see this person properly ruled out I think shows a lack of investigative skills on your part. If you are ruling him out based solely on a height discrepancy, that's pretty foolish. I've already said the major hurdle is a lack of him being placed in Vallejo,Napa,or SF. If he was never there he couldn't be zodiac,that is obvious. Does that mean it shouldn't be verified? Why would his own brother suspect he was SF Bay's 'Zodiac Killer' if Ross never was in the SF Bay area? I think his brother likely knew more than us as far as where Ross was or wasn't and he had some reason to suspect him

I never said that I didn't want to see him properly ruled out. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Beyond that, most of your statements are either inaccurate or embellishments.

None of the writings can conclusively be proven to be by Z. There is no such thing as a match where handwriting is concerned. The best that can be hoped for is consistent with. With the incredibly small sample size available from the author of the Bates letters, the lack of exemplars, even that is impossible. The desktop poem is farce. Just plain old silly.

He's too fat, too tall, and can't be placed in the areas where the murders took place. You can't even claim he knew Bates. You have the word of one person. All of this is based on the recollection of one person. 

This is the * that burns my ass. Do you know that writing experts and document exams have ruled people out in crimes and helped convict them in others??? That's a fact. You just flat out don't know what you are talking about. Are you a certified trained doc examiner, if so,let's see your credentials. The more you type, the more you prove how clueless you are. I will say for the last time, and then I won't waste another second on you, CHERI'S BEST FRIEND MARRIED ROSS'S BROTHER. ANOTHER WITNESS STATED THAT CHERI & ROSS KNEW EACH OTHER, I think it's clear,they knew each other. Too fat,when you see the pics of Ross,does he look fat? Stocky,chubby maybe,not super fat. And once again, evidence found at the Lake Berryessa indicated that Zodiac was likely "well over 200 pounds" that's a quote from Napa Sheriff's dept! Do you read? I already said that Ross can't be zodiac if he can't be placed in the SF bay area. That doesn't mean we won't try and find him there. 

[morf13]

May 8, 2017 15:22:59 GMT batman said:

It is interesting that the Paul Stine murder seems to indicate that the Zodiac wanted to acquire evidence that he was the writer of the letters and so put Stine's bloody shirt into a package. It was an exact forensic match. So blanket claims that even the Zodiac killer can't be connected to the letters can be dismissed. We can and based on the shirt fragment letter match (find what share commonalities) with other letters.

Then we have the Zodiac handwriting on the car door of the Lake B attack. The writing on the door matches the letters. Matching means to share commonalities. That's it. 'Exact' match is another matter, like the shirt piece. So Zodiac has done plenty to demonstrate he is writing the letters.

Any writing found anywhere with known Zodiac mistakes in spelling are trivial, sure. However writing found in connection with a murder that stands out should be looked into if it relates to the Zodiac case. Bates is related due to the fact the Zodiac wrote about her. For Bates there is quite a bit of writing evidence here and there. From the letters people got, to the finding of the desktop poem. What do we find? The spelling mistakes that the Zodiac is known to make. That is not trivial. That is where you need to start questioning coincidences. Coincidental composite. Coincidental misspelling. Coincidental writings? Coincidental stalker at the library looks like the Zodiac? Maybe they are, but its up to the investigator to find something that points away from this person and not at them the more you look into it.

Thomas Horan wrote a book claiming the zodiac murders were a hoax. The problem with that theory, is that multiple jurisdictions were involved in the Zodiac case, Solano County Sheriff's dept, Vallejo, Napa Sheriff's dept,SFPD, all connected by letters & writing. A hoaxer would need access to evidence & writing in all the jurisdictions. According to a couple people here on this site, the writing is not a match and these people know better than the CA Department of justice and the Zodiac investigators what's a link and what is not. It's laughable that these people think they know better than the investigators. 

[batman]

May 8, 2017 15:31:39 GMT morf13 said:

May 8, 2017 15:22:59 GMT batman said:

It is interesting that the Paul Stine murder seems to indicate that the Zodiac wanted to acquire evidence that he was the writer of the letters and so put Stine's bloody shirt into a package. It was an exact forensic match. So blanket claims that even the Zodiac killer can't be connected to the letters can be dismissed. We can and based on the shirt fragment letter match (find what share commonalities) with other letters.

Then we have the Zodiac handwriting on the car door of the Lake B attack. The writing on the door matches the letters. Matching means to share commonalities. That's it. 'Exact' match is another matter, like the shirt piece. So Zodiac has done plenty to demonstrate he is writing the letters.

Any writing found anywhere with known Zodiac mistakes in spelling are trivial, sure. However writing found in connection with a murder that stands out should be looked into if it relates to the Zodiac case. Bates is related due to the fact the Zodiac wrote about her. For Bates there is quite a bit of writing evidence here and there. From the letters people got, to the finding of the desktop poem. What do we find? The spelling mistakes that the Zodiac is known to make. That is not trivial. That is where you need to start questioning coincidences. Coincidental composite. Coincidental misspelling. Coincidental writings? Coincidental stalker at the library looks like the Zodiac? Maybe they are, but its up to the investigator to find something that points away from this person and not at them the more you look into it.

Thomas Horan wrote a book claiming the zodiac murders were a hoax. The problem with that theory, is that multiple jurisdictions were involved in the Zodiac case, Solano County Sheriff's dept, Vallejo, Napa Sheriff's dept,SFPD, all connected by letters & writing. A hoaxer would need access to evidence & writing in all the jurisdictions. According to a couple people here on this site, the writing is not a match and these people know better than the CA Department of justice and the Zodiac investigators what's a link and what is not. It's laughable that these people think they know better than the investigators. 

I think the Zodiac's signature is letter writing. If he doesn't write for the infamy then he isn't achieving his biggest emotional need. Recognition and attention. The sort of thing someone sitting alone and 'misunderstood' could find fulfilment with.

Wasn't it Robert Hansen who had the fake alibi? It would be worth finding who RS's alibi was.

[Mitchell]

May 8, 2017 15:27:36 GMT morf13 said:

May 8, 2017 14:55:09 GMT Mitchell said:

I never said that I didn't want to see him properly ruled out. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Beyond that, most of your statements are either inaccurate or embellishments.

None of the writings can conclusively be proven to be by Z. There is no such thing as a match where handwriting is concerned. The best that can be hoped for is consistent with. With the incredibly small sample size available from the author of the Bates letters, the lack of exemplars, even that is impossible. The desktop poem is farce. Just plain old silly.

He's too fat, too tall, and can't be placed in the areas where the murders took place. You can't even claim he knew Bates. You have the word of one person. All of this is based on the recollection of one person. 

This is the * that burns my ass. Do you know that writing experts and document exams have ruled people out in crimes and helped convict them in others??? That's a fact. You just flat out don't know what you are talking about. Are you a certified trained doc examiner, if so,let's see your credentials. The more you type, the more you prove how clueless you are. I will say for the last time, and then I won't waste another second on you, CHERI'S BEST FRIEND MARRIED ROSS'S BROTHER. ANOTHER WITNESS STATED THAT CHERI & ROSS KNEW EACH OTHER, I think it's clear,they knew each other. Too fat,when you see the pics of Ross,does he look fat? Stocky,chubby maybe,not super fat. And once again, evidence found at the Lake Berryessa indicated that Zodiac was likely "well over 200 pounds" that's a quote from Napa Sheriff's dept! Do you read? I already said that Ross can't be zodiac if he can't be placed in the SF bay area. That doesn't mean we won't try and find him there. 

I'm far from clueless and your rectal problems are none of my concern.

There are too few exemplars to draw any sort of conclusions-conclusions which would be spurious due to the fact that handwriting analysis is not science.

If you've been keeping up, if you can, all manner of junk science has been used in criminal cases to achieve meritless convictions. I posted several links indicating as much when this discussion began.

Do some reading. Be analytical. Keep your cool. Be civilized. Aspire to be better than you have been. Act like an adult.