The Zodiac Killer

[thrax]

Jan 29, 2015 13:58:03 GMT pendleton said:

I agree that Bates is debatable as a Zodiac victim but the letters that were sent to Joseph Bates, the police and the newspaper were all signed with a Z. The letters also contained extra postage on the envelopes, something that became a regular feature on the later Zodiac letters. Sherwood Morill, a hand writing expert from CBCII also claims the desktop writing, the "Bates had to die" letter and the later Zodiac letters were written by the same person. The Zodiac also personally claimed responsibility in a letter to the LA Times in March, 1971. Circumstantial I know but compelling.

Oh, I absolutely agree that there are several things about it that do look very Z-like. That's why I'm on the fence. At times, I think it was him, and at others, that he merely latched onto it as an excuse to indulge in his other serious interest, which was sending letters and scaring the hell out of people. I don't know.

The information about Ferrin and Mageau being followed and pursued before their attack comes from Mike Mageau, although he was known to change his story depending on who he talked to.

He never said anything remotely like that at the time though, and his story morphed over a 40 year period until it came to resemble the bizarre and unsubstantiated stories spun by Darlene's sister Pam. Various other family members and cops have long considered her extremely unreliable at best, for good reason. I'd say the same about Mageau (and I'm definitely not alone in that view either), whose story is now almost unrecognizable compared to what he said in 1969.

I wasn't aware that Ferrin's brother claimed responsibility for 'heavy breathing calls'. I wonder what number the calls were traced to and if it can be corroborated with his claim.

I don't believe there was any way to trace them, as the phone company didn't keep records of local calls and had no prior reason to monitor those numbers specifically. In any event, it seems a perfectly plausible explanation to me, and also could explain why Darlene went to the park in the first place.

I agree that there's not a lot of hard evidence that the Zodiac stalked his victims but it's definitely evident in his personality. He saw himself as a hunter and his victims as game. He was also a very meticulous and careful offender. I would be very surprised if stalking was not a part of his ritual. 

It doesn't really seem to have been part of his ritual in the other Bay Area cases though. He seemed to (rather like EAR) generally pick a location rather than a specific victim. Even Mageau's initial story seems to back that up, with the killer arriving, seeing that they were alone in the parking lot, then driving off again (presumably to verify no other cars were around), and then coming back to quickly shoot them and escape.

[pendleton]

Yeah, that's the problem with these big cases that are decades old. Stories change, things get added, things disappear until it becomes next to impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff, sort of speak. I'll take your word on it all as I haven't really followed or thought about the Zodiac in quite a long time. The Zodiac really is a hard offender to pin down. I've found his mixture of strong technical ability and obsession with mysticism, ancient religion and theatre to be a bizarre combination. And although I don't think I buy into the whole 'radians' theory, it is an interesting theory. Good talk, thanks Thrax.

[sammyt]

It has been suggested that Gaikowski followed at least one victim (I believe it was Ferrin but I may be wrong) across country when she moved.

Gaik was editor of 'Good Times' magazine (zodiac referred to the 'good times' he had in Vallejo) and his office was based a few doors down from the home of Paul Stine.

So it might be a possibility that zodiac knew some of his victims in advance.

[woofytreats]

Unfortunately, one thing that usually needs to happen regarding the Zodiac case is that you have to separate several "narrative flow into case fact" elements that exist around some of the Zodiac books but especially the original Robert Graysmith "Zodiac" ( aka the yellow book ). In the opinion of many, Graysmith did a bit of a disservice to the case when he added elements that don't match with the police reports, witnesses / involved parties, etc. and created additional story lines that aren't "clues" because they don't relate to the case facts...although they're presented that way.

[the411]

Zodiac was of course more publicized. If think of the morbid idea of publicity Zodiac has a catchier name than EAR-ONS/GSK.

I think if you were to look at the behaviors of serial killers you'd find that their behavior patterns were quite similar and the differences would be partially explained by their environment in which they grew up. That's why there are man shared psychological elements.

Ignoring the Bates crime, why did Zodiac kill his victims with a gun except for Sheppard whee he used a knife? My supposition is that he knew Sheppard and or Hartnell or even perhaps stalked them long enough to feel like he knew them.

If Bates was a Z crime then I would suggest the same one of reasoning.

Outside of bar fights/knife fights how often does a killer use a knife to kill random victims? I guess that it is quite infrequent. Usng a knife is more intimate, messy, and many stabs may be needed. Not to mention that there a much greater chance of surviving stab wounds rather than gunshot wounds as a whole. So why go through all that risk and trouble if you don't know someone.

[Deleted]

One thing that is strange about the Mageau-Ferrin attack is that Mike Mageau was reportedly wearing two pairs of jeans. He was "a little skinny guy," according to one source,so he may have needed two pairs to keep his pants on, but practically, if a person is going to park and make out, why make removing one's clothes any harder than it has to be?

Mike Mageau's accounting of the incident seemed a little shady.

[drdoogie]

Jan 29, 2015 20:42:19 GMT the411 said:

Ignoring the Bates crime, why did Zodiac kill his victims with a gun except for Sheppard whee he used a knife?

My suspicion is because this is the only known daylight crime and there were other people around that would have reported hearing gunshots.  A knife is quieter when you need to not draw attention to yourself and your crimes.

[pendleton]

Jan 29, 2015 20:42:19 GMT the411 said:

Ignoring the Bates crime, why did Zodiac kill his victims with a gun except for Sheppard whee he used a knife? 
If Bates was a Z crime then I would suggest the same one of reasoning.

Outside of bar fights/knife fights how often does a killer use a knife to kill random victims? I guess that it is quite infrequent. Usng a knife is more intimate, messy, and many stabs may be needed. Not to mention that there a much greater chance of surviving stab wounds rather than gunshot wounds as a whole. 

Both of these insights are telling. I too am on the fence a bit about the Bates murder but you can't ignore it if you want to talk about the use of a knife. Bates fought hard. It was indicative at the crime scene and her defensive wounds. A small knife was also used. If this was an early attack by the Zodiac, then perhaps it caused him to rethink his MO. In the Farady/Jensen attack there was possible evidence that the Zodiac may have ordered them out of the car (victim positioning and stray shots in a back window and the the side/top of the roof from an offender that was a good shot) but he may have lost control and chose to shoot them. Following this pattern, the Lake Berryessa crime may have been the closest to his true fantasy and the Zenith (no Z pun intended) of his escalation. For the first and only time he wore the carefully made hood. For the first time he he used the gun for control but still stabbed them. For the first time he had his own ligatures (no signs of opportunity there), for the first time (unless he killed Bates) he spent some time talking to his victims and for the first time he left a note at the crime scene. I can't help but feel that Lake Berryessa was the evolution. I also think it's no coincidence that the female victims suffered the worst of the Zodiac attacks and suffered from obvious overkill while two of the male victims survived. 

[the411]

Jan 29, 2015 21:23:01 GMT drdoogie said:

Jan 29, 2015 20:42:19 GMT the411 said:

Ignoring the Bates crime, why did Zodiac kill his victims with a gun except for Sheppard whee he used a knife?

My suspicion is because this is the only known daylight crime and there were other people around that would have reported hearing gunshots.  A knife is quieter when you need to not draw attention to yourself and your crimes.

Dr. Doogie, I absolutely agree with your reasoning, but why commit a day crime versus a crime at night? Up to Berryessa all of Zodiacs known crimes were at night, most likely for cover of darkness.

Possible that Zodiac became more daring? Possible he wanted to add to his "legend" so to speak.

It could certainly be argued that theatrics were his aim for Berryessa.

This is something that has always bothered me about the Zodiac case and I keep coming back to idea that Zodiac had to conceal himself because one or both of the victims would have recognized him. Most likely he would have been on the periphery of Sheppard and Hartnell's lives.

[pendleton]

Jan 29, 2015 21:23:01 GMT drdoogie said:

Jan 29, 2015 20:42:19 GMT the411 said:

Ignoring the Bates crime, why did Zodiac kill his victims with a gun except for Sheppard whee he used a knife?

My suspicion is because this is the only known daylight crime and there were other people around that would have reported hearing gunshots.  A knife is quieter when you need to not draw attention to yourself and your crimes.

I don't think it had anything to do with it being a daylight crime with people around. Zodiac spent more time with Shepard and Hartnell then he did with any of his other victims. He also hogtied them (This was unnecessary and points to signature over MO. Bondage is not an official paraphilia but it is generally considered one in crime investigation). Zodiac stabbed six times in the back as Shepard watched and she started screaming and rolling away (about as loud as a gun shot). Zodiac stabbed her with a real brutality, including multiple stabs to her genitals. He then calmly walked away (Hartnell said he calmly walked away and his foot impressions confirm it). He seemed to have no fear of being caught.

[pendleton]

Jan 29, 2015 23:32:53 GMT the411 said:

This is something that has always bothered me about the Zodiac case and I keep coming back to idea that Zodiac had to conceal himself because one or both of the victims would have recognized him. Most likely he would have been on the periphery of Sheppard and Hartnell's lives.

This is doubtful. The Zodiac didn't dawn his hood until he was in close proximity to Shepard and Hartnell. Both of them saw him approaching unmasked and and Shepard got a good look at him unmasked and didn't recognize him. It's also pretty obvious that his intent was murder. With that intent there was no need to conceal his face and it would have actually drawn more attention to him in a public place in daylight. The mask was also home made and a lot of care went into the stitching of the crosshairs symbol. If he wanted to conceal his face, anything would have done. The mask appears to be less about concealing his identity and more about his own fantasy identity as the Zodiac.

[sammyt]

Jan 29, 2015 21:10:18 GMT @trig said:

One thing that is strange about the Mageau-Ferrin attack is that Mike Mageau was reportedly wearing two pairs of jeans. He was "a little skinny guy," according to one source,so he may have needed two pairs to keep his pants on, but practically, if a person is going to park and make out, why make removing one's clothes any harder than it has to be?

Mike Mageau's accounting of the incident seemed a little shady.

I have read that Mageau was a very skinny guy and by wearing extra clothing was tying to impress Dee by looking manlier/more bulky.

Nightclub bouncers often wear extra layers of clothing to appear more intimidating.

Another option is that Mike was there to provide visual back-up or muscle for a drug deal that Dee was involved in, and as such had to look somewhat solid.

[xiulan]

One of the greatest obstacles in old unsolved cases that attract attention the way Zodiac continues to is the lore that crops up around the case. Suddenly every murder within 100 miles suddenly becomes "viable" to tack on to the killer's list of victims...even if the only commonality is that there was a blade of grass at this one AND that one. Everyone suddenly becomes a "viable" suspect... It's sort of like getting a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Cheri Jo Bates' murder is more Ted Bundy than "Zodiac", quite frankly, especially considering how far removed from the series of "Zodiac" crimes her murder was for the personal nature and level of brutality of her killing.

Lake Berryessa is also not as odd as it is sometimes made out to be. In the late 1960s, the exact place where Cecilia and Bryan were attacked was not just a straight jaunt from the parking area or from anywhere, for that matter. This made it an optimal spot for "lovers" to have a great deal of privacy "out in the open" in the middle of the day. He did bring his gun and used probably the oldest ruse in the game: robbery. For a guy who shoots people in the dark in their cars, a daytime stabbing seems "off" at the surface. Unless the detached shooting scenarios weren't really doing it for him. Perhaps he'd been fantasizing about knife attacks, but was trying to find his feet as a killer first. If we look at it from the perspective of an arrogant, established killer stepping out of his comfort zone into a whole new world of murder for the first time none of the Berryessa facts are abnormal. The gun for initial control and also as a back-up in case things didn't go well; the hood to prevent identification, as it was daytime; the ropes to maintain control of two victims while he stabs them one at a time...in a place where, even if spotted in the act by a boat on the lake, he'd have time to slip away completely before the scene was reached. Smart and careful rather than reckless, from a different point of view.

There seems to be, in cases like these, a tendency to attempt to fit every possible scenario to the case except for the most practical ones. The crimes become lore and the unknown killers become legends. But they are technically people. Just people. Fallible, erring, imperfect. They seem more in touch with this fact than are the people decades removed from their crimes. They are practical in their preparation because they are acutely aware of the potential to get caught if they make even a single mistake.

[killerchaser]

Jan 30, 2015 13:15:56 GMT killerchaser said:

I was looking at Brother Ely of the Process Church also known as Victor Floyd Wild.I heard they owned a lot of German Sheperds. Some more here. zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/7415/Victor-Floyd-Wild#.VMo2bzU5A5u Take a look at the photos on facebook. www.facebook.com/TheProcesschurch/timeline/    www.gnosticliberationfront.com/process_church_3.htm  

Maybe the similarities between the Zodiac and the EAR is that they were from the same group.

[Deleted]

Wouldn't it be a *er if the Zodiac turned out to be a drug dealer gone postal?