Rivers

[cleopatra]

Oct 3, 2018 13:03:51 GMT (AQ) said:

Oct 2, 2018 11:07:56 GMT cleopatra said:

My idea was merely that these rivers play a part in at least these two crimes. I google-mapped the area where the couple had been found lying dead on the beach.  To get there, they (killer + couple) had to walk through marsh. The spot they were found was on the beach. The male was turned away from the water and the detective's noted that it appeared he was running away and the killer shot him as he was running. The detectives theorized that he made a run for it and wondered why he waited until that moment to run. The only thing I could think of was that he saw a boat and realized the killer intended to take them away on it. There was no road - they came from a road.   Maybe the killer was actually telling them to get on the boat and the male victim turned and ran.

The killer may have used a boat in some crimes and a vehicle in others. 

The two crimes- Knobling and Edwards; Call and Hailey.

I'm trying to figure out why the suspect would want to load 2 people on a boat unless already dead and even then trying to manage the bodies would be awkward and time consuming especially without help of 1 or more (not saying there weren't accomplices, saying I'd hope he'd have some in this type of case). I can see where dumping them further out in the river might make retrieval of bodies more difficult. 

If the people were still alive, even if bound, that too would be awkward to manage and to what end ?  I can more readily see absconding with one body than with two.   

I'm actually still trying to understand why Call/Hailey were even taken (or diverted) from their line of travel.  And this scenario of being taken in a boat brings into question even more what the suspect wanted with them.   Seems like alot of trouble to satisfy his needs.  Why were their clothes, purses and wallets left or taken back to the car ?   Why bother leaving evidence behind if their was a focus of making them difficult to find.   Almost seems like the items in the car are a taunting....... mistaken identity?    Setting up another couple for some way they had crossed him?

Knobling & Edwards:   A take them away, make them disappear incident gone awry?  Yet, once shot and killed why not load them on the boat and take them further out into waters where it might make them more difficult to find.   Why leave them to be found?  

AQ,

Those are very good questions.

I've been thinking of those same things, which makes me hesitate to believe the couples, dead or alive, were placed on a boat.  It seems like so much effort for the killer to make.  However, it is something he's been known to do - transport his victims away from their cars and kill them in another area, in the woods.  One of my theories is that the killer wanted and did have interaction with his victims between the time of their capture and death.  The only explanation I could think of for that was perhaps he wanted to give them a surmon, a religious one.  Which is why I believe the killer was mission oriented and his religious beliefs may have played a part in his motive. 

I'm giving a lot of thought now to whether or not there was a boat involved.  It's tricky.

Cleo

[MJP]

Oct 3, 2018 13:03:51 GMT (AQ) said:

Oct 2, 2018 11:07:56 GMT cleopatra said:

[...]
  

The two crimes- Knobling and Edwards; Call and Hailey.

I'm trying to figure out why the suspect would want to load 2 people on a boat unless already dead and even then trying to manage the bodies would be awkward and time consuming especially without help of 1 or more (not saying there weren't accomplices, saying I'd hope he'd have some in this type of case). I can see where dumping them further out in the river might make retrieval of bodies more difficult. 

If the people were still alive, even if bound, that too would be awkward to manage and to what end ?  I can more readily see absconding with one body than with two.   

I'm actually still trying to understand why Call/Hailey were even taken (or diverted) from their line of travel.  And this scenario of being taken in a boat brings into question even more what the suspect wanted with them.   Seems like alot of trouble to satisfy his needs.  Why were their clothes, purses and wallets left or taken back to the car ?   Why bother leaving evidence behind if their was a focus of making them difficult to find.   Almost seems like the items in the car are a taunting....... mistaken identity?    Setting up another couple for some way they had crossed him?

Knobling & Edwards:   A take them away, make them disappear incident gone awry?  Yet, once shot and killed why not load them on the boat and take them further out into waters where it might make them more difficult to find.   Why leave them to be found?  

Maybe... the killer didn't care whether the victims were quickly identified or not if they were strangers to him?  Perhaps the only concern for the killer was delaying the finding of the bodies to reduce the possibility of any evidence being retrieved that could identify him?  I'm not sure how long a body would need to be in water before you can reasonably assume such evidence is completely eliminated but would a few days be sufficient?

As with the case of Keith & Sandra, a killer might even be 'lucky enough' for tides and currents to do their work and put the bodies beyond the reach of law enforcement.

[MJP]

Oct 4, 2018 4:14:09 GMT MJP said:

Oct 3, 2018 13:03:51 GMT (AQ) said:

The two crimes- Knobling and Edwards; Call and Hailey.

I'm trying to figure out why the suspect would want to load 2 people on a boat unless already dead and even then trying to manage the bodies would be awkward and time consuming especially without help of 1 or more (not saying there weren't accomplices, saying I'd hope he'd have some in this type of case). I can see where dumping them further out in the river might make retrieval of bodies more difficult. 

If the people were still alive, even if bound, that too would be awkward to manage and to what end ?  I can more readily see absconding with one body than with two.   

I'm actually still trying to understand why Call/Hailey were even taken (or diverted) from their line of travel.  And this scenario of being taken in a boat brings into question even more what the suspect wanted with them.   Seems like alot of trouble to satisfy his needs.  Why were their clothes, purses and wallets left or taken back to the car ?   Why bother leaving evidence behind if their was a focus of making them difficult to find.   Almost seems like the items in the car are a taunting....... mistaken identity?    Setting up another couple for some way they had crossed him?

Knobling & Edwards:   A take them away, make them disappear incident gone awry?  Yet, once shot and killed why not load them on the boat and take them further out into waters where it might make them more difficult to find.   Why leave them to be found?  

Maybe... the killer didn't care whether the victims were quickly identified or not if they were strangers to him?  Perhaps the only concern for the killer was delaying the finding of the bodies to reduce the possibility of any evidence being retrieved that could identify him?  I'm not sure how long a body would need to be in water before you can reasonably assume such evidence is completely eliminated but would a few days be sufficient?

As with the case of Keith & Sandra, a killer might even be 'lucky enough' for tides and currents to do their work and put the bodies beyond the reach of law enforcement.

A further speculative thought linked to the above: 

Working on the basis that Cathy & Becky, David & Robin, and Keith & Sandra are a series of related murders: what if the killer/s had a genuine scare after C&B (thinking they had left identifying evidence on the bodies), this might explain the change to disposing of the bodies in water rather leaving them in the vehicles.

If the old theory that Powell and Pettinger are possibly part of the same series, their murders would fit with the above scenario i.e. all murders after Cathy & Becky involve disposal in water and delay in law enforcement retrieving the bodies for examination.

[cleopatra]

Oct 4, 2018 4:24:15 GMT MJP said:

Oct 4, 2018 4:14:09 GMT MJP said:

Maybe... the killer didn't care whether the victims were quickly identified or not if they were strangers to him?  Perhaps the only concern for the killer was delaying the finding of the bodies to reduce the possibility of any evidence being retrieved that could identify him?  I'm not sure how long a body would need to be in water before you can reasonably assume such evidence is completely eliminated but would a few days be sufficient?

As with the case of Keith & Sandra, a killer might even be 'lucky enough' for tides and currents to do their work and put the bodies beyond the reach of law enforcement.

A further speculative thought linked to the above: 

Working on the basis that Cathy & Becky, David & Robin, and Keith & Sandra are a series of related murders: what if the killer/s had a genuine sI-85care after C&B (thinking they had left identifying evidence on the bodies), this might explain the change to disposing of the bodies in water rather leaving them in the vehicles.

If the old theory that Powell and Pettinger are possibly part of the same series, their murders would fit with the above scenario i.e. all murders after Cathy & Becky involve disposal in water and delay in law enforcement retrieving the bodies for examination.

MJP,

That theory does make sense.

I've read that serial killers would change up some of parts of their M.O. based on what newspaper articles published, and in order to evade capture.

Cleo

[MJP]

Oct 4, 2018 4:29:08 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 4, 2018 4:24:15 GMT MJP said:

A further speculative thought linked to the above: 

Working on the basis that Cathy & Becky, David & Robin, and Keith & Sandra are a series of related murders: what if the killer/s had a genuine sI-85care after C&B (thinking they had left identifying evidence on the bodies), this might explain the change to disposing of the bodies in water rather leaving them in the vehicles.

If the old theory that Powell and Pettinger are possibly part of the same series, their murders would fit with the above scenario i.e. all murders after Cathy & Becky involve disposal in water and delay in law enforcement retrieving the bodies for examination.

MJP,

That theory does make sense.

I've read that serial killers would change up some of parts of their M.O. based on what newspaper articles published, and in order to evade capture.

Cleo

Hey Cleo, do you know if it was common knowledge back in 1986 that hair had been retrieved from Cathy's hand?  Or has that information only been released in recent years?

[cleopatra]

Oct 4, 2018 4:36:00 GMT MJP said:

Oct 4, 2018 4:29:08 GMT cleopatra said:

MJP,

That theory does make sense.

I've read that serial killers would change up some of parts of their M.O. based on what newspaper articles published, and in order to evade capture.

Cleo

Hey Cleo, do you know if it was common knowledge back in 1986 that hair had been retrieved from Cathy's hand?  Or has that information only been released in recent years?

MJP,

I don't know when the hair info first became public knowledge. Bill would know the answer to that question.

Cleo

[billthom56]

Oct 4, 2018 5:32:26 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 4, 2018 4:36:00 GMT MJP said:

Hey Cleo, do you know if it was common knowledge back in 1986 that hair had been retrieved from Cathy's hand?  Or has that information only been released in recent years?

MJP,

I don't know when the hair info first became public knowledge. Bill would know the answer to that question.

Cleo

MJP/Cleo:

The hair in Cathy's hand was not well known.  I wrote to the FBI in November 2009 with a list of all of the items of evidence that they had signed for in October 1986.  After they jerked me around for a few years, I began commenting in interviews about the hair, probably in about 2012.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

[MJP]

Oct 4, 2018 5:49:25 GMT billthom56 said:

Oct 4, 2018 5:32:26 GMT cleopatra said:

MJP,

I don't know when the hair info first became public knowledge. Bill would know the answer to that question.

Cleo

MJP/Cleo:

The hair in Cathy's hand was not well known.  I wrote to the FBI in November 2009 with a list of all of the items of evidence that they had signed for in October 1986.  After they jerked me around for a few years, I began commenting in interviews about the hair, probably in about 2012.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

Thanks.  Okay, so this might mean either the killer/s post attacks suspected or knew one/both had left something incriminating on the bodies/in the car OR due to a connection (colleague/family/friend) to the investigators or to people with inside knowledge of the investigation (e.g. press) they heard that they had left evidence that could identify one/both of them..?

So, from this point on, this might explain why the victims are never returned to their vehicles and their bodies are disposed of in water.

[MJP]

^^^ Thinking back to what the Sheriff said about David and Robin's murders - I'm guessing you need a strong motivator to drag two dead bodies 300 yards into the river.

[(AQ)]

Oct 4, 2018 9:35:21 GMT MJP said:

Oct 4, 2018 5:49:25 GMT billthom56 said:

MJP/Cleo:

The hair in Cathy's hand was not well known.  I wrote to the FBI in November 2009 with a list of all of the items of evidence that they had signed for in October 1986.  After they jerked me around for a few years, I began commenting in interviews about the hair, probably in about 2012.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

Thanks.  Okay, so this might mean either the killer/s post attacks suspected or knew one/both had left something incriminating on the bodies/in the car OR due to a connection (colleague/family/friend) to the investigators or to people with inside knowledge of the investigation (e.g. press) they heard that they had left evidence that could identify one/both of them..?

So, from this point on, this might explain why the victims are never returned to their vehicles and their bodies are disposed of in water.

True.  They tried diesel which didn't wok out all that well at all.  But, going from strangulation/slashing to gunshots (David & Robin) left bullets behind in the victims).  However, only the bullets, no casings have been found.    

Just saying this was somewhat of a misstep if their focus became to further obscure evidence.  Casings are more definitive but bullets are something.   

Also in many, if not all cases there were fingerprints left on/in vehicles. 

[MJP]

Oct 4, 2018 12:30:23 GMT (AQ) said:

Oct 4, 2018 9:35:21 GMT MJP said:

So, from this point on, this might explain why the victims are never returned to their vehicles and their bodies are disposed of in water.

True.  They tried diesel which didn't wok out all that well at all.  But, going from strangulation/slashing to gunshots (David & Robin) left bullets behind in the victims).  However, only the bullets, no casings have been found.    

Just saying this was somewhat of a misstep if their focus became to further obscure evidence.  Casings are more definitive but bullets are something.   

Also in many, if not all cases there were fingerprints left on/in vehicles. 

Thanks for this information Always.  Do you remember where you read about the bullets?

I saw a news article yesterday that reported the Sheriff saying all of the casings found on the beach were from hunters and people testing guns.  He mentioned also that they hadn't recovered any bullets from David (the bullets had gone straight through him) but, based on the wounds, it was thought that the gun was large calibre weapon like a .357 Magnum.  

Nothing was said in the article about a bullet being recovered from Robin - do you know if that happened?

[(AQ)]

Oct 4, 2018 13:15:43 GMT MJP said:

Oct 4, 2018 12:30:23 GMT (AQ) said:

True.  They tried diesel which didn't wok out all that well at all.  But, going from strangulation/slashing to gunshots (David & Robin) left bullets behind in the victims).  However, only the bullets, no casings have been found.    

Just saying this was somewhat of a misstep if their focus became to further obscure evidence.  Casings are more definitive but bullets are something.   

Also in many, if not all cases there were fingerprints left on/in vehicles. 

Thanks for this information Always.  Do you remember where you read about the bullets?

I saw a news article yesterday that reported the Sheriff saying all of the casings found on the beach were from hunters and people testing guns.  He mentioned also that they hadn't recovered any bullets from David (the bullets had gone straight through him) but, based on the wounds, it was thought that the gun was large calibre weapon like a .357 Magnum.  

Nothing was said in the article about a bullet being recovered from Robin - do you know if that happened?

Quoting from A Special Kind of Evil... not claiming this to be a definitive source, just what I'm reading atm.  I've seen references to this other places, don't have my hands on it atm.  News articles are about the best  but investigative pieces  are helpful also, sometimes bring new information into play.


"The bodies themselves did yield physical evidence in the form of bullets. A bullet was recovered from David Knobling's head wound; the shoulder wound had an entry and exit wound and that round was never recovered.  A partial bullet was recovered from Robin's wound. ....... We speculate it was a .38 caliber recovered from Knobling from what I can remember." 

-- Speculating a .38 vs .357 I can see.  Speculating the caliber overall, when you have the bullet, I can't see.  Someone knows for certain if .38/.357 is correct, speculation isn't necessary.  Ie, I'm arguing the term speculating not .357/.38.

[MJP]

Oct 4, 2018 12:30:23 GMT (AQ) said:

Oct 4, 2018 9:35:21 GMT MJP said:

So, from this point on, this might explain why the victims are never returned to their vehicles and their bodies are disposed of in water.

True.  They tried diesel which didn't wok out all that well at all.  But, going from strangulation/slashing to gunshots (David & Robin) left bullets behind in the victims).  However, only the bullets, no casings have been found.    

Just saying this was somewhat of a misstep if their focus became to further obscure evidence.  Casings are more definitive but bullets are something.   

Also in many, if not all cases there were fingerprints left on/in vehicles. 

Maybe this is something we will never know but I wonder if any of the fingerprints belong to the killer/s.  It seems odd to think that someone planning to murder would not be wearing gloves... as with everything else so far, there's always more questions than answers :-)

[MJP]

Oct 4, 2018 13:35:59 GMT (AQ) said:

Oct 4, 2018 13:15:43 GMT MJP said:

Thanks for this information Always.  Do you remember where you read about the bullets?

I saw a news article yesterday that reported the Sheriff saying all of the casings found on the beach were from hunters and people testing guns.  He mentioned also that they hadn't recovered any bullets from David (the bullets had gone straight through him) but, based on the wounds, it was thought that the gun was large calibre weapon like a .357 Magnum.  

Nothing was said in the article about a bullet being recovered from Robin - do you know if that happened?

Quoting from A Special Kind of Evil... not claiming this to be a definitive source, just what I'm reading atm.  I've seen references to this other places, don't have my hands on it atm.  News articles are about the best  but investigative pieces  are helpful also, sometimes bring new information into play.


"The bodies themselves did yield physical evidence in the form of bullets. A bullet was recovered from David Knobling's head wound; the shoulder wound had an entry and exit wound and that round was never recovered.  A partial bullet was recovered from Robin's wound. ....... We speculate it was a .38 caliber recovered from Knobling from what I can remember." 

-- Speculating a .38 vs .357 I can see.  Speculating the caliber overall, when you have the bullet, I can't see.  Someone knows for certain if .38/.357 is correct, speculation isn't necessary.  Ie, I'm arguing the term speculating not .357/.38.

Thanks AQ, this is very helpful.

It sounds like the book is a useful resource?  I usually start cases with all the news articles, but I wouldn't turn my nose up at a good book.

[(AQ)]

Oct 4, 2018 13:45:34 GMT MJP said:

Oct 4, 2018 13:35:59 GMT (AQ) said:

Quoting from A Special Kind of Evil... not claiming this to be a definitive source, just what I'm reading atm.  I've seen references to this other places, don't have my hands on it atm.  News articles are about the best  but investigative pieces  are helpful also, sometimes bring new information into play.


"The bodies themselves did yield physical evidence in the form of bullets. A bullet was recovered from David Knobling's head wound; the shoulder wound had an entry and exit wound and that round was never recovered.  A partial bullet was recovered from Robin's wound. ....... We speculate it was a .38 caliber recovered from Knobling from what I can remember." 

-- Speculating a .38 vs .357 I can see.  Speculating the caliber overall, when you have the bullet, I can't see.  Someone knows for certain if .38/.357 is correct, speculation isn't necessary.  Ie, I'm arguing the term speculating not .357/.38.

Thanks AQ, this is very helpful.

It sounds like the book is a useful resource?  I usually start cases with all the news articles, but I wouldn't turn my nose up at a good book.

News articles are indeed an excellent source.  I only get articles avail via google (not newspapers.com).  I also wasn't 'investigating' when I started this, only reading out of curiosity which turned into a pet project which I've been diverted from. 

 Picked up A Special Kind of Evil due to a friend mentioning the book to me. Again, I don't hold it definitive but yes, a good condensed resource and has tied into podcasts and info elsewhere (tho am believing one of the podcasts was based on the book, not vice versa.)

I am referencing alot of the resources Bill Thomas listed under the CPM thread.