Known Victims: Keith Call and Sandra Hailey

[MJP]

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

[(AQ)]

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

Keith's tracks initially followed Sandra's... was he following her?   Had she been taken or was she running from someone and Keith was trying to follow, saw she had been shot and turned back, away?
A mile is a long way.  I don't think she was running from someone, someone would have had control of her, guiding her.

I've got more questions relating to the why's of this case than of being able to piece it together.    In this particular scene relating to the scents, the beach etc what baffles me is why their clothing wallets & purses were left in the car?  Making sure bodies couldn't be found, but leaving traces of them behind.  Car,  yes, harder to dispose of.  Clothing- makes no sense. 

No comment yet on the relationship to the other killings.  I see a few similar threads, but, atm, that is all they are.  Good question bc it will point to the relationships of the killings, if there is one.

[MJP]

Oct 3, 2018 13:32:49 GMT (AQ) said:

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

Keith's tracks initially followed Sandra's... was he following her?   Had she been taken or was she running from someone and Keith was trying to follow, saw she had been shot and turned back, away?
A mile is a long way.  I don't think she was running from someone, someone would have had control of her, guiding her.

I've got more questions relating to the why's of this case than of being able to piece it together.    In this particular scene relating to the scents, the beach etc what baffles me is why their clothing wallets & purses were left in the car?  Making sure bodies couldn't be found, but leaving traces of them behind.  Car,  yes, harder to dispose of.  Clothing- makes no sense. 

No comment yet on the relationship to the other killings.  I see a few similar threads, but, atm, that is all they are.  Good question bc it will point to the relationships of the killings, if there is one.

That's an interesting question re the clothes; hadn't thought about the 'why' of it so need to mull that over.

I started reading about David & Robin's murders earlier and saw a similarity with Keith & Sandra's murders re the clothes.  In both cases the victims' underwear and shoes had been left in the vehicles.  In K&S's case, their shirts were also left; am not sure if David's shirt was left in his vehicle (Robin was still wearing her blouse when found).  


 

[englishman]

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

It's possible he had an accomplice, he could be good at incapacitating and controlling the victims, e.g. perhaps telling them to comply keep calm and he will leave alone once his searched through their stuff. Another more sinister angle perhaps he sexually assaulted Sandra we don't have bodies and he went to a considerable effort to ensure they were not found.

I think his trying to dispose of the bodies his failed using Diesel fuel his tried to push a car down an embankment, he could of attempt to dump both David & Robin in the water but misjudged the current and the tides. 

[MJP]

Oct 7, 2018 19:09:40 GMT englishman said:

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

It's possible he had an accomplice, he could be good at incapacitating and controlling the victims, e.g. perhaps telling them to comply keep calm and he will leave alone once his searched through their stuff. Another more sinister angle perhaps he sexually assaulted Sandra we don't have bodies and he went to a considerable effort to ensure they were not found.

I think his trying to dispose of the bodies his failed using Diesel fuel his tried to push a car down an embankment, he could of attempt to dump both David & Robin in the water but misjudged the current and the tides. 

Working through the possible permutations of how those separate tracks were left that night, two offenders seems to be a reasonable possibility.  If not, then presumably a single killer had to leave either Keith or Sandra alive in the vehicle or nearby whilst walking off with the other.  Even if they were left bound and gagged in that scenario, it seems quite a risk to take.  

Of all the information I've read so far, it is the two separate tracks and how they may have occurred that night that makes me think two offenders is a reasonable possibility.

Regarding David and Robin: the difficulty I have in understanding the disposal is my lack of knowledge of the James River tides and currents, specifically the likelihood of any body put into the river washing up along the shoreline.  If that was a strong likelihood then the killer/s action of dragging the bodies further out in order to delay them returning to the shoreline suggests a knowledgeable decision was calculated and executed.  If the killer/s objective was to keep the bodies in water long enough for evidence to be destroyed then it seems like they were successful in that respect.  As yet, I don't have a 'feel' for what would be obvious or likely in that situation.

[MJP]

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

I posted the following in the 'Route 17' thread but it makes sense also to post it here.

...




Pin: University.

Black dash line: J Clyde Morris Blvd (one option for travelling from the party to get to Route 17).

Red dash line: Route 17 (one option for Keith to drive Sandra back to her home in Grafton, to meet the 0200 hrs curfew deadline). Obviously we know they never made it back to the Hailey home. If you continue driving along Route 17 it intersects with the Colonial Parkway at Yorktown.

Yellow highlight: Colonial Parkway.

1 = Yorktown pub.

2 = Location where Cathy's car was found.

A = Location where Keith's car was found (and underneath that overlook is the beach where the bloodhounds tracked Keith's movements).

B = Indian Field Creek shoreline, where the bloodhound's tracked Sandra's movements).

[englishman]

Separating people can be risky, but a lot of the time people comply as they fear the unknown, if you've been split up and being threatened with extreme violence, you might not put up resistance it's difficult to know, we do strange things under pressure. I do want to know who was at that party who left before Keith and Sandra and directly after, also if anyone was outside the apartments.

With Robin and David MJP, by the destroy evidence part do you mean signs of an sexual assault on Robin Edwards?

[cleopatra]

Oct 8, 2018 2:43:17 GMT MJP said:

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

I posted the following in the 'Route 17' thread but it makes sense also to post it here.

...




Pin: University.

Black dash line: J Clyde Morris Blvd (one option for travelling from the party to get to Route 17).

Red dash line: Route 17 (one option for Keith to drive Sandra back to her home in Grafton, to meet the 0200 hrs curfew deadline). Obviously we know they never made it back to the Hailey home. If you continue driving along Route 17 it intersects with the Colonial Parkway at Yorktown.

Yellow highlight: Colonial Parkway.

1 = Yorktown pub.

2 = Location where Cathy's car was found.

A = Location where Keith's car was found (and underneath that overlook is the beach where the bloodhounds tracked Keith's movements).

B = Indian Field Creek shoreline, where the bloodhound's tracked Sandra's movements).

KEITH AND SANDRA

I'm hesitant to connect the tracking dog's trail AFTER it reached the bridge over Indian Field Creek.  The dogs followed both victim's scents to that point, which was to the bridge over the Indian Field Creek.

From that point, the dogs followed ONLY KEITH'S SCENT, circling back the spot where Keith's car was parked.

There is no way to be 100% certain that the dog's were following a scent coming from Keith himself.  The dogs could have been following Keith's scent that was transferred onto killer.  The killer could have:

-  taken some of Keith's clothes, and the dogs followed the scent on the clothes,

-  gotten Keith's scent on his body if he handled Keith's body after killing Keith, if that's what happened, or if the killer fought with Keith, 

-  had Keith's blood on his clothes or shoes if Keith bled.  

The trail from the bridge to the where the car was found may not have been a result of Keith returning to the car, but instead the killer going there.

CATHY AND BECKY

I am also hesitant to use the York Pub (Yorktown Pub) as one of Cathy's and Becky's last known whereabouts before they were killed.

I read the two women were seen at that restaurant but that information had never been verified.  The only confirmed report of where they'd been seen before they were killed, was at the Williams and Mary College near Becky's dorm sometime after 6:30 P.M.

What I find interesting is that the coroner reported the women had undigested meat in their stomachs - an indication that they had eaten hamburger or similar food prior to their deaths.

AND,

A McDonalds game card piece with the picture of Jeff Bostic of the Washington Red Skins was found in the car, face down on the dashboard.  That card could have landed on that spot after the car stopped moving from being pushed down the hill.  I have these thoughts now.  Whose card was it?  Where did it come from?  Did one of the women collect those McDonald's football player cards? This was a McDonalds item and would have come with an order from McDonalds.  If the women ate at McDonalds that night, where were the food wrappers and drink cups?  Since Cathy was known to keep her car's interior pristine, if she threw out those things, then why didn't she also throw out the card?

Another item found inside the car behind the driver's seat, on the floor, underneath a gym bag was a "small blue cardboard carton of unknown origins".  Could that carton have been a McDonald's happy meal carton?  What were the UNKNOWN ORIGINS?

[cleopatra]

RE:  CATHY and BECKY

Information pertaining to the women's last known whereabouts:

THURSDAY - OCTOBER 9

CATHY

- Cathy went to William & Mary College to spend time with Becky before Becky would leave on a 5 day trip to visit her mother.

- Cathy helped Becky & her friends on a computer project in the computer lab in Barrett Hall at the college.

BECKY

- Sometime after 6:30 P.M. Becky logged onto a computer in order to print a computer project which was due the next day, Friday.

BOTH WOMEN

- Sometime after 6:00  P.M. Cathy & Becky were seen near Becky's dorm at the college.

- It is unknown where they went or what they did after that last confirmed sighting of them alive. 

FRIDAY - OCTOBER 10

CATHY

- Cathy did not show up for work

- Cathy did not call her office, something she characteristically did on her days off.

BECKY

- Becky had one last class on 10/10 Friday, where she was supposed to turn in her project.  After which, it would be the first day of a 5 day break.

- Becky failed to show up for that last class.

- Two of Becky's classmates (Jolene Schira & Karen Miller) were concerned when Becky did not show up for class.  They looked for her. 

- Becky had plans to go home and visit her mother for the 5 day break.

- Becky planned to leave the college on Friday 10/10 and arrive at her mother's place in Dickenson by 8:30 P.M.

- Becky's car was filled with clothes, presumably for the 5 day trip.

SATURDAY - OCTOBER 11

- NOTHING -

SUNDAY - OCTOBER 12

5:45 P.M. - A jogger discovered Cathy's white car, a white Honea Civic 1300DX, two-door hatchback.

- The two front seats were empty.

- Becky's body was found in the back seat.

- Cathy's body was found in the rear hatch area of the car.

NOTES

The coroner reported that both women had undigested meat in their stomachs - an indication that they had eaten hamburger or similar food prior to their deaths.  The coroner also confirmed that they had been dead for at least 24 hours BEFORE the examination.  If the exam was done right away sometime in the evening of Sunday October 12, then that means they were already dead Saturday October 11 by at least 8PM. 

Since the reports that the women had been seen at the Yorktown Pub are unconfirmed, we can't rely on the fact that they were ever there.

Since there was the same kind of undigested meat in both their stomachs, similar to hamburger meat, and there was a McDonalds football player's card found in the car, I am wondering if they may have grabbed a bite to eat at McDonalds.  A small blue carton with unknown contents and no further description was found in the car.  It's possible it was a happy meal carton.  LE knows the answer.  Does anyone else know about the blue carton?

If it was a McDonalds box, it would have had to come from the night they ate out.  If it were from an earlier time, Cathy would have thrown it out. She wouldn't have just left it in her car.  That is, if it was even a McDonalds carton..

[cleopatra]

BUMP

[cleopatra]

BUMP

[cleopatra]

Oct 8, 2018 2:43:17 GMT MJP said:

Oct 3, 2018 0:51:52 GMT MJP said:

I wanted to start a thread to collect and consider relevant issues appearing in other threads; for starters:

...

Tracking Keith and Sandra's movements in the CP

Based on various news reports, the bloodhounds tracked the following movements from Keith's car:

SANDRA moved nearly a mile west along the parkway to the bridge over Indian Field Creek. Her track had crossed the parkway to the landward side of the bridge, where the dogs then wanted to enter the water to continue their work.

Note: due to the reference to the landward side, I'm assuming the dogs wanted to enter the creek rather than the river. Does that sound right to you?

KEITH's track initially followed the same direction as Sandra's but then circled back along the shore to the bottom of a cliff below (one report says to the east of..) the overlook where his car was parked.

Note: one report also mentions the dogs traced a scent from the car down a steep, 25-foot vine-covered slope to the beach. I'm assuming this relates to Keith's track circling back to the shore, but I don't know that for certain.

The high tide that morning was at 0415 hrs and the beach was covered with water between 0200-0730 hrs. I don't know how high the water would've been for anyone reaching the beach.

Later on Sunday during the first search, the dogs waded through shallow water along the shoreline to pick up the scent and then were driven about in boats to continue tracking the scent in the York River. The dogs indicated they found scents as far out as 70 yards into the river but divers could find nothing.

….

The above suggests to me that Keith and Sandra were still alive when they were driven to CP. (I do not believe they went there of their own accord but will save that for another post.) It seems too difficult, too dangerous for the killer/s to attempt to move bodies that distance at night along a road / down a steep path to the shore.

Does separating Keith and Sandra suggest one or more killers to you?

If this case is linked to Cathy and Becky's and also David and Robin's, what does the evolution in the killer/s handling and control of the victims suggest to you?

I posted the following in the 'Route 17' thread but it makes sense also to post it here.

...




Pin: University.

Black dash line: J Clyde Morris Blvd (one option for travelling from the party to get to Route 17).

Red dash line: Route 17 (one option for Keith to drive Sandra back to her home in Grafton, to meet the 0200 hrs curfew deadline). Obviously we know they never made it back to the Hailey home. If you continue driving along Route 17 it intersects with the Colonial Parkway at Yorktown.

Yellow highlight: Colonial Parkway.

1 = Yorktown pub.

2 = Location where Cathy's car was found.

A = Location where Keith's car was found (and underneath that overlook is the beach where the bloodhounds tracked Keith's movements).

B = Indian Field Creek shoreline, where the bloodhound's tracked Sandra's movements).

MJP,

That's a great map . I really like the way you illustrated all the routes.  The visual is a tremendous help.

Thanks for doing that.

Cleo

[MJP]

Oct 9, 2018 12:50:53 GMT englishman said:

Separating people can be risky, but a lot of the time people comply as they fear the unknown, if you've been split up and being threatened with extreme violence, you might not put up resistance it's difficult to know, we do strange things under pressure. I do want to know who was at that party who left before Keith and Sandra and directly after, also if anyone was outside the apartments.

With Robin and David MJP, by the destroy evidence part do you mean signs of an sexual assault on Robin Edwards?

Hey English, when I typed the comment I was thinking more along the lines of fluids/fibres on Robin/her clothing i.e. water contaminating and/or washing that evidence away.  

[MJP]

Oct 9, 2018 23:54:42 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 8, 2018 2:43:17 GMT MJP said:

[...]

KEITH AND SANDRA

I'm hesitant to connect the tracking dog's trail AFTER it reached the bridge over Indian Field Creek.  The dogs followed both victim's scents to that point, the bridge over the Indian Field Creek.

From that point, the dogs followed ONLY KEITH'S SCENT, circling back the spot where Keith's car was parked.

There is no way to be 100% certain that the dog's were following a scent coming from Keith himself.  The dogs could have been following Keith's scent that was transferred onto killer.  The killer could have:

-  taken some of Keith's clothes, and the dogs followed the scent off of the clothes,

-  gotten Keith's scent on his body if he handled Keith's body after killing him if that's what happened or if he fought with Keith, 

-  if Keith bled, his blood could have gotten on the killer's clothes or shoes.

The trail from the bridge to the where the car was found may not have been a result of Keith returning to the car, but instead the killer going there.

[...]

Hey Cleo, 

From the (1980s) reports I read the dogs tracked Sandra to the creek's shoreline and wanted to continue into the water.  I haven't found anything that confirms whether the dogs were allowed to continue a water search and if there was any additional traces of Sandra that they were able to track.

Re Keith: I haven't seen a report (from the 1980s) that says the dogs tracked Keith's scent back to the car.  Is this something you have read in a more recent report?

[MJP]

Oct 9, 2018 23:54:42 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 8, 2018 2:43:17 GMT MJP said:

[...]

[...]

CATHY AND BECKY

I am also hesitant to use the York Pub (Yorktown Pub) as one of Cathy's and Becky's last known whereabouts before they were killed.

I read the two women were seen at that restaurant but that information had never been verified.  The only confirmed report of where they'd been seen before they were killed, was at the Williams and Mary College near Becky's dorm sometime after 6:30 P.M.

What I find interesting is that the coroner reported the women had undigested meat in their stomachs - an indication that they had eaten hamburger or similar food prior to their deaths.

AND,

A McDonalds game card piece with the picture of Jeff Bostic of the Washington Red Skins was found in the car, face down on the dashboard.  That card could have landed on that spot after the car stopped moving from being pushed down the hill.  I have these thoughts now.  Whose card was it?  Where did it come from?  Did one of the women collect those McDonald's football player cards? This was a McDonalds item and would have come with an order from McDonalds.  If the women ate at McDonalds that night, where were the food wrappers and drink cups?  Since Cathy was known to keep her car's interior pristine, if she threw out those things, then why didn't she also throw out the card?

Another item found inside the car behind the driver's seat, on the floor, underneath a gym bag was a "small blue cardboard carton of unknown origins".  Could that carton have been a McDonald's happy meal carton?  What were the UNKNOWN ORIGINS?

[...]

Yes - agree re Yorktown pub, it is a possibility only and any assumption I make in respect of it is for the purpose of speculation only.

I like your speculation re McDonalds.  Do you know the location(s) of any McDonalds in the area back in 1986?  It will be good to hear from Bill whether he knows or believes either Cathy or Becky might have collected the card, perhaps for a younger relative or child of a friend/colleague?

The only point I'd hesitate on is whether the carton was from McDonalds - wouldn't the chain be sufficiently well-known as to have made the carton easily identifiable as being from McDonalds?