Known Victims: Keith Call and Sandra Hailey

[cleopatra]

The thing here is, Mr. Call stopped at the car and did not see the key in the ignition, clothing, shoes, purse, Keith's prescription glasses, watch or wallet, or the glove compartment door open with an unopened condom package on its door. 

Mr. Call saw Keith's car parked at the turnabout while driving to work. Just seeing Keith's car was odd to him. It was odd enough to make him stop, look around, call out for Keith.  It is understandable that Mr. Call was merely perturbed that Keith left his car there with the door unlocked, and thought perhaps Keith took off with some friends and would be back shorty.  What parent would ever fathom in their wildest dreams that their grown son was abducted?

If spotting Keith's car parked was odd enough to make Mr. Call stop and take a look in the car and around the area, it would have been beyond odd to him to see the key in the ignition, a purse and wallet in the car, Keith's prescription eye glasses and watch on the dashboard.  In fact, it would have been ALARMING AS HELL!

In the meantime, if indeed the ranger had the clothes on him way before 7am, and called Sandra's number at 9AM, he'd have been unaware of Mr. Call's stop. The ranger could have said he saw the car, got Cassandra's phone number from her checkbook, and left, without taking anything out of the car.  But how could he say that when Mr. Call saw nothing in the car?  He'd have to say he took everything out of the car, and took it all with him, which was why Mr. Call didn't see anything.  If the ranger started work at 7AM, he couldn't say he stopped at the car before 7 or at 7.  He'd have to make it as close to 7 as possible, like at 7:15AM.  And, he'd have to put everything back.  His fingerprints being found on and inside the car, and on all the personal items, would now also be explained. 

[tosh]

Jul 1, 2021 7:52:44 GMT cleopatra said:

The thing here is, Mr. Call stopped at the car and did not see the key in the ignition, clothing, shoes, purse, Keith's prescription glasses, watch or wallet, or the glove compartment door open with an unopened condom package on its door. 

Mr. Call saw Keith's car parked at the turnabout while driving to work. Just seeing Keith's car was odd to him. It was odd enough to make him stop, look around, call out for Keith.  It is understandable that Mr. Call was merely perturbed that Keith left his car there with the door unlocked, and thought perhaps Keith took off with some friends and would be back shorty.  What parent would ever fathom in their wildest dreams that their grown son was abducted?

If spotting Keith's car parked was odd enough to make Mr. Call stop and take a look in the car and around the area, it would have been beyond odd to him to see the key in the ignition, a purse and wallet in the car, Keith's prescription eye glasses and watch on the dashboard.  In fact, it would have been ALARMING AS HELL!

In the meantime, if indeed the ranger had the clothes on him way before 7am, then called Sandra's number at 9AM, he'd have been unaware of Mr. Call's stop. he ranger could have said he saw the car, got the number from the checkbook, and left, without taking anything out of the car.  But how could he say that. Since Mr. Call saw nothing in the car? So now he'd have to say he took everything out of the car, and took it all with him.  And now, he'd have to put everything back.  His fingerprints being found on and inside the car, and on all the personal items, would be explained. 

It is all very alarming. Regarding the condom, there is no parent in the world out there who wouldn’t have noticed that. I totally believe Mr Call saw what he did too.
Why would a ranger need to open the glove compartment if he was only returning clothes? The only possible explanation for that would be a ranger did arrive around 7.15 and shut the open glove compartment back up. (But that timeline is so tight.) Then he tried to return the scene to how he found it later. But then if he was concerned enough that something was up that he took the items away, why tamper with the scene inside the car? 
I wonder what fingerprints if any where found on the glove compartment door? 

[billthom56]

May 13, 2021 5:17:44 GMT cleopatra said:

May 13, 2021 1:41:52 GMT daedra said:

That's a great point. So if CPK were LE and ran their plates, he would most likely be the second to last person to pull up their plates. The final person would have been the patrol officer who came across the vehicle. It would definitely be worth looking at to see if the same name pops up for all victims. However, I do wonder if CPK were LE and familiar with police procedures and record keeping, if he would risk having his name recorded when he ran the plates. Instead of running plates, he may have approached cars on foot when they were already parked and asked for ID in the "fake traffic stop" scenario. There would be no official trace of him then. 

David's truck was parked in the Ragged Island Parking lot where no vehicles were allowed during a certain time.  It was the only vehicle there, in a wide open space, where it couldn't be missed my morning patrol, and it wasn't.

Keith's car was parked at the overlook near Bracken's Pond, also the only vehicle in a wide open space, where it couldn't be missed by morning patrol, and it wasn't.

Daniel's car was parked at a public facility in the "TRUCKS ONLY" lot/zone, right under a NO PARKING sign, where morning patrol couldn't miss it, and it wasn't missed. 

I think Bill made an attempt to get  info on the plates being pulled up but had no luck.

Cleo and Daedra:

Apologies-- I think I missed this post.  As I understand it, in the late 1980s a patrol car or NPS Ranger did not have computer or cell phone in their vehicle.  They radioed into the dispatcher, who ran plates from HQ via computer and then radio back.

Thanks.



Bill

[daedra]

Re: the ranger being a suspect -- do we know what kind of carpet CP ranger housing had back then? I've seen exterior shots on google maps, but no interior shots to date. I'd be interested to know if the carpet was orange.

[daedra]

Jul 4, 2021 16:59:33 GMT billthom56 said:

May 13, 2021 5:17:44 GMT cleopatra said:

David's truck was parked in the Ragged Island Parking lot where no vehicles were allowed during a certain time.  It was the only vehicle there, in a wide open space, where it couldn't be missed my morning patrol, and it wasn't.

Keith's car was parked at the overlook near Bracken's Pond, also the only vehicle in a wide open space, where it couldn't be missed by morning patrol, and it wasn't.

Daniel's car was parked at a public facility in the "TRUCKS ONLY" lot/zone, right under a NO PARKING sign, where morning patrol couldn't miss it, and it wasn't missed. 

I think Bill made an attempt to get  info on the plates being pulled up but had no luck.

Cleo and Daedra:

Apologies-- I think I missed this post.  As I understand it, in the late 1980s a patrol car or NPS Ranger did not have computer or cell phone in their vehicle.  They radioed into the dispatcher, who ran plates from HQ via computer and then radio back.

Thanks.



Bill

Thanks for clarifying, Bill!

[lukesmom]

Hi - one thought about the NPS rangers/patrollers. They may have frequently had to deal with couples “hooking up” in parked cars and as a result jump to conclusions about why someone would be on the CPW. I recall HS friends making jokes about it at the time. The skinny-dipping explanation is pretty strange, considering there would be beaches and much easier ways to get into the water, and also the time of year. A local HS-aged person would definitely know the water would be too cold.

I agree with posters that the taking and replacing clothes is strange and suspicious. It reminds me of the Hitchcock movie Frenzy, where the murder victim grabs the murderer’s tie pin while she is being murdered, and the murderer has to go back afterwards and retrieve it. Anyway, it makes me think there might have been incriminating evidence in or on the items, or left something behind. I’m not convinced, though, that the CPK was one of these rangers. It’s possible they were looking through pockets, etc., for drugs they could sell.

Another thought occurred to me - there was a 7-11, I believe, right off of route 17 in Grafton right next to the shopping center I mentioned in another post (Heritage Square) which would have been VERY familiar to Sandy and most likely Keith as well. I don’t remember as many convenience stores closer to the parkway and the Coleman Bridge at the time. That 7-11 would be a very logical place for them to stop in the way back from NN. If there were security guards at that shopping center, they would be within walking distance. It would have also been the only store open that late.

[daedra]

kind of a long shot given the date but I wonder if the palm print was ever compared to Keith's: www.doenetwork.org/cases/1943umnc.html

[dickere]

I was reading through a chunk of this thread earlier. What struck me was Cleo's rightly repeated point about the items being removed and returned to Keith's car.

Are we certain they were taken by the trooper ? If so, or whoever it was, surely they are the killer here. They were returned folded too, which I think applied in other cases too. If so, it strongly suggests the same person.

[daedra]

Aug 22, 2021 17:49:04 GMT dickere said:

I was reading through a chunk of this thread earlier. What struck me was Cleo's rightly repeated point about the items being removed and returned to Keith's car.

Are we certain they were taken by the trooper ? If so, or whoever it was, surely they are the killer here. They were returned folded too, which I think applied in other cases too. If so, it strongly suggests the same person.

The clothing removal is really bizarre. I could understand rustling through the clothes to look for an ID/phone number for the car's owner, but why remove the clothes, take them with you, then return them to the car? It's so weird and extra. 


Edit to add: I believe it was NPS Ranger John Segar who found the car and took the clothes. He's got his own thread: earonsgsk.proboards.com/thread/8979/ranger-segar

[daedra]

Clipping from the local paper: 




Keith's dad saw the car around ~7am and is adamant that there were no clothes in there when he looked inside. 

[dickere]

Aug 22, 2021 18:08:03 GMT daedra said:

Aug 22, 2021 17:49:04 GMT dickere said:

I was reading through a chunk of this thread earlier. What struck me was Cleo's rightly repeated point about the items being removed and returned to Keith's car.

Are we certain they were taken by the trooper ? If so, or whoever it was, surely they are the killer here. They were returned folded too, which I think applied in other cases too. If so, it strongly suggests the same person.

The clothing removal is really bizarre. I could understand rustling through the clothes to look for an ID/phone number for the car's owner, but why remove the clothes, take them with you, then return them to the car? It's so weird and extra. 


Edit to add: I believe it was NPS Ranger John Segar who found the car and took the clothes. He's got his own thread: earonsgsk.proboards.com/thread/8979/ranger-segar

Thanks daedra. Christ, he's my age maybe slightly younger and retired 10 years ago. Nice work if you can get it.

[dickere]

Aug 22, 2021 18:08:03 GMT daedra said:

Aug 22, 2021 17:49:04 GMT dickere said:

I was reading through a chunk of this thread earlier. What struck me was Cleo's rightly repeated point about the items being removed and returned to Keith's car.

Are we certain they were taken by the trooper ? If so, or whoever it was, surely they are the killer here. They were returned folded too, which I think applied in other cases too. If so, it strongly suggests the same person.

The clothing removal is really bizarre. I could understand rustling through the clothes to look for an ID/phone number for the car's owner, but why remove the clothes, take them with you, then return them to the car? It's so weird and extra. 


Edit to add: I believe it was NPS Ranger John Segar who found the car and took the clothes. He's got his own thread: earonsgsk.proboards.com/thread/8979/ranger-segar

Look at Cleo's post towards the bottom of p14 of Williams-Winans, he pops up there too. Small world eh. Very dodgy "obviously gay"...

[daedra]

Aug 22, 2021 19:32:32 GMT dickere said:

Aug 22, 2021 18:08:03 GMT daedra said:

The clothing removal is really bizarre. I could understand rustling through the clothes to look for an ID/phone number for the car's owner, but why remove the clothes, take them with you, then return them to the car? It's so weird and extra. 


Edit to add: I believe it was NPS Ranger John Segar who found the car and took the clothes. He's got his own thread: earonsgsk.proboards.com/thread/8979/ranger-segar

Look at Cleo's post towards the bottom of p14 of Williams-Winans, he pops up there too. Small world eh. Very dodgy "obviously gay"...

Dodgy indeed! and one of the last people to see the women at a remote camp site. doubt there were too many others, if any, who knew they were out there. 

[dickere]

Aug 23, 2021 15:26:53 GMT daedra said:

Aug 22, 2021 19:32:32 GMT dickere said:

Look at Cleo's post towards the bottom of p14 of Williams-Winans, he pops up there too. Small world eh. Very dodgy "obviously gay"...

Dodgy indeed! and one of the last people to see the women at a remote camp site. doubt there were too many others, if any, who knew they were out there. 

In the interests of fairness, is it feasible that a ranger could cover both areas normally ? I assume there aren't that many of them so they could be involved with more than one death without really being involved ?

[tosh]

Aug 23, 2021 15:26:53 GMT daedra said:

Aug 22, 2021 19:32:32 GMT dickere said:

Look at Cleo's post towards the bottom of p14 of Williams-Winans, he pops up there too. Small world eh. Very dodgy "obviously gay"...

Dodgy indeed! and one of the last people to see the women at a remote camp site. doubt there were too many others, if any, who knew they were out there. 

Is that definitely the same person as the Ranger ? I thought the John Sager who had spoken to the girls was a visitor to the park. I’ll try and see if I can find the reference to check.