Known Victims: Keith Call and Sandra Hailey

[vrextar]

Mar 1, 2019 2:24:23 GMT cleopatra said:

Mar 1, 2019 0:25:36 GMT vrextar said:

I posted this in the main thread, but my pseudo theory was regarding KC & CH and where they might be found when compared with the other victims based on where they were found and their initials. As has been seen with other killers, some make use of various patterns when selecting victims and/or locations. For example, the Alphabet murders back in the 1970's, where the first letter of the victims' names was also the first letter in the location they were found.

So in the CPM, we have the following. Admittedly it's probably not the soundest or greatest theory, but I thought it was worth mentioning at least.

CT/RD - Colonial Parkway (C in Cathy, C in Colonial Parkway)

DK/RE - Ragged Island (R in Robin, R in Ragged Island, or maybe even River's Edge (as in both of her initials, RE)

KC/CH - Colonial Parkway [vehicle only so far] (C in Call/C in Cassandra, C in Colonial Parkway)

DL/AP - Logging Road (L in Laurer, L in Logging Road or perhaps D in Daniel and D in Dirt Road)

As R is the first letter of Keith's given name, I also theorized that maybe the area around Roosevelt Road/Pond could be involved somehow, as this follows the above pattern with name initials corresponding with the locations' first letters.

Yeah that is pretty crazy. I've driven CP many times the past 10 years or so, as I use it as an alternate route home from my work when traffic is bad. I don't think I went on it much in the 1980s or 1990s except field trips to Jamestown and such back then.

The film connection is one I was not aware of and adds another layer of connectivity from one victim to another.

Agreed. It had to have been completely awful and terrifying.

vrexrar,

Your theory with the letters is plausible. Especially if mine about the obsessive cumpulsive trait is true.  In which case, the killer may have a cumpulsion to "match" things. 

Yeah there does seem to be something to that. I believe the clothes were folded when discovered, correct? That doesn't seem like something most people would do. Especially if these were random crimes. Granted I'm not LE, or a criminology expert, but from things I've read/seen, it seems more criminals leave scenes messy with little regard for cleaning up or tidying things, especially back before DNA evidence was widely used/known about.

The theory you mentioned about CPK hunting them could be something too. A case where this occurred was Robert Hansen up in Alaska in the 1970s and 80s. He would kidnap victims and let them loose in the woods and hunt them like he was hunting deer. Thankfully he's been deceased for a few years now.

Was CP really that busy late at night? I know it can be during rush hour these days, but I don't imagine there being too much traffic on a desolate unlit road with woods very close to the road. I believe LE even said they didn't patrol much that late at night on CP, probably because there wasn't much of anything happening at that time.

[trabuco]

Mar 1, 2019 3:44:27 GMT vrextar said:

Mar 1, 2019 2:24:23 GMT cleopatra said:

vrexrar,

Your theory with the letters is plausible. Especially if mine about the obsessive cumpulsive trait is true.  In which case, the killer may have a cumpulsion to "match" things. 

Yeah there does seem to be something to that. I believe the clothes were folded when discovered, correct? That doesn't seem like something most people would do. Especially if these were random crimes. Granted I'm not LE, or a criminology expert, but from things I've read/seen, it seems more criminals leave scenes messy with little regard for cleaning up or tidying things, especially back before DNA evidence was widely used/known about.

The theory you mentioned about CPK hunting them could be something too. A case where this occurred was Robert Hansen up in Alaska in the 1970s and 80s. He would kidnap victims and let them loose in the woods and hunt them like he was hunting deer. Thankfully he's been deceased for a few years now.

Was CP really that busy late at night? I know it can be during rush hour these days, but I don't imagine there being too much traffic on a desolate unlit road with woods very close to the road. I believe LE even said they didn't patrol much that late at night on CP, probably because there wasn't much of anything happening at that time.

If the CPK was hunting his victims then that would explain why he took their shoes. But only one couple was shot. Of course we don't know how he killed Call and Hailey. This hunting theory makes me think about reading the comments section of a CPK youtube video that I had watched several months ago. One of the comments mentioned that Anna Marie Phelps had been stabbed in the forehead with a hunting knife. The person who made the comment referred to it as a "power kill."  I reported the comment to authorities.

[(AQ)]

Mar 1, 2019 2:24:23 GMT cleopatra said:

Mar 1, 2019 0:25:36 GMT vrextar said:

I posted this in the main thread, but my pseudo theory was regarding KC & CH and where they might be found when compared with the other victims based on where they were found and their initials. As has been seen with other killers, some make use of various patterns when selecting victims and/or locations. For example, the Alphabet murders back in the 1970's, where the first letter of the victims' names was also the first letter in the location they were found.

So in the CPM, we have the following. Admittedly it's probably not the soundest or greatest theory, but I thought it was worth mentioning at least.

CT/RD - Colonial Parkway (C in Cathy, C in Colonial Parkway)

DK/RE - Ragged Island (R in Robin, R in Ragged Island, or maybe even River's Edge (as in both of her initials, RE)

KC/CH - Colonial Parkway [vehicle only so far] (C in Call/C in Cassandra, C in Colonial Parkway)

DL/AP - Logging Road (L in Laurer, L in Logging Road or perhaps D in Daniel and D in Dirt Road)

As R is the first letter of Keith's given name, I also theorized that maybe the area around Roosevelt Road/Pond could be involved somehow, as this follows the above pattern with name initials corresponding with the locations' first letters.

Yeah that is pretty crazy. I've driven CP many times the past 10 years or so, as I use it as an alternate route home from my work when traffic is bad. I don't think I went on it much in the 1980s or 1990s except field trips to Jamestown and such back then.

The film connection is one I was not aware of and adds another layer of connectivity from one victim to another.

Agreed. It had to have been completely awful and terrifying.

vrexrar,

Your theory with the letters is plausible. Especially if mine about the obsessive cumpulsive trait is true.  In which case, the killer may have a cumpulsion to "match" things. 

 Interesting theory on 'matching'.

That immediately brought to mind the folding of clothes.  In one sense that could be seen as matching- in the sense of orderly.  What exactly was folded?  Shirts & Tops? Just shirts or tops?  Boys w/ girls clothing or separately?

So were items left behind (jewelry for instance) in any way matched- a necklace for girls, watch for boys; were id's always left (boys & girls)?  If something was missing/taken was a like item also taken from the partner, or was one left behind (which also in a sense relates to matching- one present/one absent)

Nothing in his killing of partners seemed to match or did they?  Both stabbed? both shot? both covered? 

Basically, what else fits the matching theory, if anything?   Times/places of abductions?  why always older cars?

[vrextar]

Mar 1, 2019 13:34:07 GMT (AQ) said:

Mar 1, 2019 2:24:23 GMT cleopatra said:

vrexrar,

Your theory with the letters is plausible. Especially if mine about the obsessive cumpulsive trait is true.  In which case, the killer may have a cumpulsion to "match" things. 

 Interesting theory on 'matching'.

That immediately brought to mind the folding of clothes.  In one sense that could be seen as matching- in the sense of orderly.  What exactly was folded?  Shirts & Tops? Just shirts or tops?  Boys w/ girls clothing or separately?

So were items left behind (jewelry for instance) in any way matched- a necklace for girls, watch for boys; were id's always left (boys & girls)?  If something was missing/taken was a like item also taken from the partner, or was one left behind (which also in a sense relates to matching- one present/one absent)

Nothing in his killing of partners seemed to match or did they?  Both stabbed? both shot? both covered? 

Basically, what else fits the matching theory, if anything?   Times/places of abductions?  why always older cars?

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure. From what has been reported, we seem to know that at least one couple (Cathy & Becky) were killed either by strangulation or with a knife, possibly both. They were still clothed, so no clothes folding there, at least not that has been reported (to my knowledge).

Were there any coats, jackets, scarves, etc.? It was Fall, so you'd think they would have at least a light jacket? Their purses were in the car too, right? But were their IDs or anything else on the dash or seats? I.E. watches, jewelry, etc. There was some attempt to hide the scene/victims with the attempt to burn everything and then pushing the car down to the river.

In David & Robin's case, there were clothes in the vehicle I think, but not sure if any folding was involved. Not sure about other items in/around the truck. But there was no real attempt to hide things as far as I know. Especially with the radio left on and such. They were both shot, so no apparent strangulation or knife attacks.

For Keith & Sandra, there were clothes, underwear, & shoes present. Along with his wallet and her purse, his glasses and watch, and the keys. As they've never been found, there must've been some attempt to hide them/the crime scene. No one knows how they were killed.

Then in Annamaria & Daniel's case, I'm not sure about clothes, but they had a good amount of items in the car for Daniel's planned move to Virginia Beach, right? And I believe at least one victim was covered with a blanket. I believe it's thought they were both killed by a knife, but that was never 100% confirmed as far as I know. And the hanging of the roach clip on the car window made it seem like the killer wasn't trying to hide, which contradicts the blanket covering. I'm not sure why they would do both. If the blanket wasn't present it would be an alternating pattern. Hide, Don't Hide, Hide, Don't Hide.

Hypothetically speaking, if Keith & Sandra were shot, then we'd have a sort of pattern. Knife, Gun, Gun, Knife.

I might be wrong, but weren't all 4 couples attacked overnight (after 12:00 AM)? I'm not sure if the places of abduction are 100% known. I've read some think it was a restaurant in some of cases, or movie theater, or on campus.

I don't know if they were necessarily older cars. Nowadays they would be considered that yes, but Cathy's car was ~6 years old, not sure of the year of David's truck, Keith's car was ~6 years old (like Cathy's), but Daniel's car was seemingly an outlier, being ~17 years old. Or was David's truck also around that age? If so, that could be an alternating pattern of sorts. Recent, Old, Recent, Old. Could also just be coincidence of course.

It seems like there is a fair amount of alternating between the 4 cases. One thing that doesn't fit for alternating is the time of year. 3 in Fall, 1 in Spring. Why not all Fall or 2 Fall & 2 Spring? Maybe CPK wanted to keep them all the same or alternate, but couldn't for some reason (out of town, in jail for another reason, health problems, personal problems, etc.)?

Also, from earlier about the possible new location for Keith & Cassandra's vehicle/paths, I had to take CP home today and took a few photos of that area (the overlook/turnout near Roosevelt Rd/Pond) with my phone. Here's the link:

imgur.com/a/8PoJKqJ

[cleopatra]

Mar 2, 2019 1:20:38 GMT vrextar said:

Mar 1, 2019 13:34:07 GMT (AQ) said:

 Interesting theory on 'matching'.

That immediately brought to mind the folding of clothes.  In one sense that could be seen as matching- in the sense of orderly.  What exactly was folded?  Shirts & Tops? Just shirts or tops?  Boys w/ girls clothing or separately?

So were items left behind (jewelry for instance) in any way matched- a necklace for girls, watch for boys; were id's always left (boys & girls)?  If something was missing/taken was a like item also taken from the partner, or was one left behind (which also in a sense relates to matching- one present/one absent)

Nothing in his killing of partners seemed to match or did they?  Both stabbed? both shot? both covered? 

Basically, what else fits the matching theory, if anything?   Times/places of abductions?  why always older cars?

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure. From what has been reported, we seem to know that at least one couple (Cathy & Becky) were killed either by strangulation or with a knife, possibly both. They were still clothed, so no clothes folding there, at least not that has been reported (to my knowledge).

Were there any coats, jackets, scarves, etc.? It was Fall, so you'd think they would have at least a light jacket? Their purses were in the car too, right? But were their IDs or anything else on the dash or seats? I.E. watches, jewelry, etc. There was some attempt to hide the scene/victims with the attempt to burn everything and then pushing the car down to the river.

In David & Robin's case, there were clothes in the vehicle I think, but not sure if any folding was involved. Not sure about other items in/around the truck. But there was no real attempt to hide things as far as I know. Especially with the radio left on and such. They were both shot, so no apparent strangulation or knife attacks.

For Keith & Sandra, there were clothes, underwear, & shoes present. Along with his wallet and her purse, his glasses and watch, and the keys. As they've never been found, there must've been some attempt to hide them/the crime scene. No one knows how they were killed.

Then in Annamaria & Daniel's case, I'm not sure about clothes, but they had a good amount of items in the car for Daniel's planned move to Virginia Beach, right? And I believe at least one victim was covered with a blanket. I believe it's thought they were both killed by a knife, but that was never 100% confirmed as far as I know. And the hanging of the roach clip on the car window made it seem like the killer wasn't trying to hide, which contradicts the blanket covering. I'm not sure why they would do both. If the blanket wasn't present it would be an alternating pattern. Hide, Don't Hide, Hide, Don't Hide.

Hypothetically speaking, if Keith & Sandra were shot, then we'd have a sort of pattern. Knife, Gun, Gun, Knife.

I might be wrong, but weren't all 4 couples attacked overnight (after 12:00 AM)? I'm not sure if the places of abduction are 100% known. I've read some think it was a restaurant in some of cases, or movie theater, or on campus.

I don't know if they were necessarily older cars. Nowadays they would be considered that yes, but Cathy's car was ~6 years old, not sure of the year of David's truck, Keith's car was ~6 years old (like Cathy's), but Daniel's car was seemingly an outlier, being ~17 years old. Or was David's truck also around that age? If so, that could be an alternating pattern of sorts. Recent, Old, Recent, Old. Could also just be coincidence of course.

It seems like there is a fair amount of alternating between the 4 cases. One thing that doesn't fit for alternating is the time of year. 3 in Fall, 1 in Spring. Why not all Fall or 2 Fall & 2 Spring? Maybe CPK wanted to keep them all the same or alternate, but couldn't for some reason (out of town, in jail for another reason, health problems, personal problems, etc.)?

Also, from earlier about the possible new location for Keith & Cassandra's vehicle/paths, I had to take CP home today and took a few photos of that area (the overlook/turnout near Roosevelt Rd/Pond) with my phone. Here's the link:

imgur.com/a/8PoJKqJ

vrextar,

Just looked at those photos.  They are awesome.  Awesome as in how close to reality they bring this board to the actual crime scene location.  I got goose bumps looking at them. 

Thank you so much for taking to take them and then post them here.  It's important, at least to me, to see photos taken first hand by a fellow board member.  

I believe cardinal also took photos, which he contributed to the Questor website.   

Cleo

[vrextar]

You're welcome, no problem! It was starting to rain a bit at the time and I had to go to the bank so I couldn't stay and take that many. I did notice on the way home that there is either a logging road (or perhaps it's part of the trails of the National Park portions) on one side of the road. There's also a creepy abandoned building next to the CP entrance (coming from Route 199/the direction of Water Country). When driving through this afternoon, I really could feel the isolation, even with a good portion of other cars driving along. I can only imagine how it was 30 some years ago and at night no less.

There is trees, trees, and more trees along the road. There's a few houses or other buildings when you get closer to the NWS, but not sure if all of that was there in the 1980s. The road that I've referenced as being close to here, Roosevelt Road, I think that's part of NWS, so probably can't access that. CP goes over top of it at one point right before the overlook (when coming from Route 199 towards Route 17).

One thing that may be important to note is the area through here is right next to the Naval Weapons Station, so if you were to step into the tree line it would be considered government property I believe. So that limits some of the areas where you could take photos from. Maybe you can request permission in advance to gain better access? Not sure about that.

[cleopatra]

Oct 26, 2018 9:13:23 GMT cleopatra said:

In the book The Parkway Murders, written by Fred Atwell, a witness came forward a few years after Sandra's and Keith's murders to say he/she saw the couple at a 7-Eleven in Tabb, Virginia sometime after 1:30 A.M.  The witness wished to remain confidential.  The location of the 7-Eleven was on George Washington Highway (Highway 17), 8 miles north of the University Square Apartments party, and 8.5 miles away from where Keith's car was found.  Sandra's home which was their destination after leaving the party was a couple of blocks away form the 7-Eleven.

It's strange that the witness waited so long to approach the police, but if it was someone around the couple's ages, maybe he/she was too terrified to come forward.  The witness may have thought if the killer was at the 7-Eleven and saw her/him talking to Keith and Sandra, might come after her/him next.  Who knows?!

There's no way to know if this witnesses sighting is reliable.  However, when I saw that the 7-Eleven was on Hwy 17, I found it interesting. 

CORRECTION

The author of the book THE PARKWAY MURDERS is not Atwell. 

The author is STEVEN SPINGOLA.

note

12/5/2019

Writing this to show a poster can edit an old post and it will appear as if it were written the date the original post was made.

cleo

[vrextar]

Mar 6, 2019 4:49:09 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 26, 2018 9:13:23 GMT cleopatra said:

In the book The Parkway Murders, written by Fred Atwell, a witness came forward a few years after Sandra's and Keith's murders to say he/she saw the couple at a 7-Eleven in Tabb, Virginia sometime after 1:30 A.M.  The witness wished to remain confidential.  The location of the 7-Eleven was on George Washington Highway (Highway 17), 8 miles north of the University Square Apartments party, and 8.5 miles away from where Keith's car was found.  Sandra's home which was their destination after leaving the party was a couple of blocks away form the 7-Eleven.

It's strange that the witness waited so long to approach the police, but if it was someone around the couple's ages, maybe he/she was too terrified to come forward.  The witness may have thought if the killer was at the 7-Eleven and saw her/him talking to Keith and Sandra, might come after her/him next.  Who knows?!

There's no way to know if this witnesses sighting is reliable.  However, when I saw that the 7-Eleven was on Hwy 17, I found it interesting. 

CORRECTION

The author of the book THE PARKWAY MURDERS is not Atwell. 

The author is STEVEN SPINGOLA.

Is this the 7-Eleven you mentioned in your quote? It's the only one I could find on Hwy 17 that's ~8.5 miles from what we're thinking is the correct location of the car (around Brackens Pond). There's a closer one at 5.3 miles away and a further one at 12.8 miles away. Of course the locations could've been different in the 1980s, not sure. I don't recall going on 17 much, if it all, back then.

Interesting to note about the one I linked. It is fairly close by to a body of water, the Harwood Mills Reservoir. Not sure if this existed in the 1980s or not, but if so, that could've been a water route for CPK if Keith & Sandra were abducted from the 7-Eleven. CPK could've driven to the reservoir from the 7-Eleven (if they left their car nearby) after abducting them in Keith's car and then presumably killing them somewhere between there and CP. CPK could've even walked from the 7-Eleven, as it's only about ~1.5-2 miles or so to the water from there.

The reservoir connects to the Poquoson River which connects to the Chesapeake Bay and it would be a relatively short trip north and west to the York River near where the car was found.

Here's a quick rough map explaining this I put together.

Also, hypothetically speaking, going on my letters theory, CPK could've left them in/around the reservoir or in/around nearby rivers (both fit with with R, as in Richard). You could also say, in theory, that Sandra fits too, H as in Harwood and her last name, Hailey.

[cleopatra]

Mar 6, 2019 18:20:51 GMT vrextar said:

Mar 6, 2019 4:49:09 GMT cleopatra said:

CORRECTION

The author of the book THE PARKWAY MURDERS is not Atwell. 

The author is STEVEN SPINGOLA.

Is this the 7-Eleven you mentioned in your quote? It's the only one I could find on Hwy 17 that's ~8.5 miles from what we're thinking is the correct location of the car (around Brackens Pond). There's a closer one at 5.3 miles away and a further one at 12.8 miles away. Of course the locations could've been different in the 1980s, not sure. I don't recall going on 17 much, if it all, back then.

Interesting to note about the one I linked. It is fairly close by to a body of water, the Harwood Mills Reservoir. Not sure if this existed in the 1980s or not, but if so, that could've been a water route for CPK if Keith & Sandra were abducted from the 7-Eleven. CPK could've driven to the reservoir from the 7-Eleven (if they left their car nearby) after abducting them in Keith's car and then presumably killing them somewhere between there and CP. CPK could've even walked from the 7-Eleven, as it's only about ~1.5-2 miles or so to the water from there.

The reservoir connects to the Poquoson River which connects to the Chesapeake Bay and it would be a relatively short trip north and west to the York River near where the car was found.

Here's a quick rough map explaining this I put together.

I believe that's the one.  Interestingly, it is on 17.  It heads straight to Bracken's Pond, when shortly before Bracken's one switches to Colonial Parkway.  If the couple was abducted from that 7-Eleven, that would have been the route taken.

I don't want to dismiss the witness statement. The witness got nothing out of coming forward 20 years later.  It could be that in 1986 the witness was a teenager and wasn't supposed to be there and didn't want to get in trouble.  Or, if not that it could have been someone who didn't want it found out by others that he/she was there or out at that time.  It could be that years later the witness matured and realized the importance of what he/she knew and decided to come forward.

[vrextar]

So I put together a quick rough map based on the new location of where we think Keith's car was found near Brackens Pond. This shows a roughly 2 mile radius of where they may have been left (for lack of a better term). This guess is based on the fact that all of the other known victims were found within 1-2 miles of the vehicle (as far as I know [with Cathy & Becky being in their car]).

[mustangman]

Mar 9, 2019 0:07:42 GMT vrextar said:

So I put together a quick rough map based on the new location of where we think Keith's car was found near Brackens Pond. This shows a roughly 2 mile radius of where they may have been left (for lack of a better term). This guess is based on the fact that all of the other known victims were found within 1-2 miles of the vehicle (as far as I know [with Cathy & Becky being in their car]).

Yep, and the two turnouts on the parkway where Cathy/Becky & Keith's car was found are right near the Naval Ammunitions pier or an access road into one of the naval bases. Possibly the CPK was in the Navy and hitched a ride from the Newport University area one time & another from William & Mary and told them to drop him off near the pier. He might have said he was out past curfew and didn't want the night watch to bust him, so he said drop me off outta sight and I'll just jump the fence, maybe it was someone Cathy knew and didn't think that was an issue and this is how he handled two strong ladies, they knew him. This is how the CPK got away and didn't have to worry about the logistics of there being 2 cars (he didn't have a car), maybe he always hitched a ride.   He simply had them pull over where he wanted and then attacked them and afterward he simply did just walk away and hop a fence back to his barracks or post?  IMHO the radius could be shrunk down to 1 mile from where Keith's car was found.  What's within that 1 mile radius now?  mostly Naval installations.  We have suspected that Cathy possibly knew her attacker.  We have suspected that the victims would only stop for someone they trusted, like possibly a  handsome sailor just hitching a ride?  Ted Bundy was described as handsome and everyone who knew him were shocked to learn he was the killer, maybe the CPK was like Bundy?   This is how we can explain Keith & Sandra driving past Grafton.  The CPK was out parting and maybe at the same party as Keith & Sandra and he was hunting his next victims and possibly struck up a discussion with them and learned they were leaving and heading in the direction he wanted to go, then as they were leaving he hitched a ride from them and said that hey you got plenty of time to drop her off could you possibly drop me off first, well we assume Keith had about an hour to get Sandra home, so he probably thought sure.  then the CPK guided them to the turnout on the parkway, abducted them & walked them towards the Indian field creek bridge, this explains the bloodhounds following a scent to the bridge and into the water, CPK might have known a way onto the base at the bridge thru the water and killed them on base property near the river? 

[vrextar]

Mar 9, 2019 2:47:10 GMT mustangman said:

Mar 9, 2019 0:07:42 GMT vrextar said:

So I put together a quick rough map based on the new location of where we think Keith's car was found near Brackens Pond. This shows a roughly 2 mile radius of where they may have been left (for lack of a better term). This guess is based on the fact that all of the other known victims were found within 1-2 miles of the vehicle (as far as I know [with Cathy & Becky being in their car]).

Yep, and the two turnouts on the parkway where Cathy/Becky & Keith's car was found are right near the Naval Ammunitions pier or an access road into one of the naval bases. Possibly the CPK was in the Navy and hitched a ride from the Newport University area one time & another from William & Mary and told them to drop him off near the pier. He might have said he was out past curfew and didn't want the night watch to bust him, so he said drop me off outta sight and I'll just jump the fence, maybe it was someone Cathy knew and didn't think that was an issue and this is how he handled two strong ladies, they knew him. This is how the CPK got away and didn't have to worry about the logistics of there being 2 cars (he didn't have a car), maybe he always hitched a ride.   He simply had them pull over where he wanted and then attacked them and afterward he simply did just walk away and hop a fence back to his barracks or post?  IMHO the radius could be shrunk down to 1 mile from where Keith's car was found.  What's within that 1 mile radius now?  mostly Naval installations.  We have suspected that Cathy possibly knew her attacker.  We have suspected that the victims would only stop for someone they trusted, like possibly a  handsome sailor just hitching a ride?  Ted Bundy was described as handsome and everyone who knew him were shocked to learn he was the killer, maybe the CPK was like Bundy?   This is how we can explain Keith & Sandra driving past Grafton.  The CPK was out parting and maybe at the same party as Keith & Sandra and he was hunting his next victims and possibly struck up a discussion with them and learned they were leaving and heading in the direction he wanted to go, then as they were leaving he hitched a ride from them and said that hey you got plenty of time to drop her off could you possibly drop me off first, well we assume Keith had about an hour to get Sandra home, so he probably thought sure.  then the CPK guided them to the turnout on the parkway, abducted them & walked them towards the Indian field creek bridge, this explains the bloodhounds following a scent to the bridge and into the water, CPK might have known a way onto the base at the bridge thru the water and killed them on base property near the river? 

Sounds entirely plausible/possible. The region has pretty much always had a large military presence (Hampton Roads/Tidewater in general). Being a sailor could explain lots of things such as access to diesel fuel, the rope used, the possible usage of a smaller boat to avoid detection, the time between attacks (could've been stationed elsewhere temporarily or overseas), etc.

Here's an updated version with the 1 mile radius in green.

[mustangman]

Mar 9, 2019 9:14:40 GMT vrextar said:

Mar 9, 2019 2:47:10 GMT mustangman said:

Yep, and the two turnouts on the parkway where Cathy/Becky & Keith's car was found are right near the Naval Ammunitions pier or an access road into one of the naval bases. Possibly the CPK was in the Navy and hitched a ride from the Newport University area one time & another from William & Mary and told them to drop him off near the pier. He might have said he was out past curfew and didn't want the night watch to bust him, so he said drop me off outta sight and I'll just jump the fence, maybe it was someone Cathy knew and didn't think that was an issue and this is how he handled two strong ladies, they knew him. This is how the CPK got away and didn't have to worry about the logistics of there being 2 cars (he didn't have a car), maybe he always hitched a ride.   He simply had them pull over where he wanted and then attacked them and afterward he simply did just walk away and hop a fence back to his barracks or post?  IMHO the radius could be shrunk down to 1 mile from where Keith's car was found.  What's within that 1 mile radius now?  mostly Naval installations.  We have suspected that Cathy possibly knew her attacker.  We have suspected that the victims would only stop for someone they trusted, like possibly a  handsome sailor just hitching a ride?  Ted Bundy was described as handsome and everyone who knew him were shocked to learn he was the killer, maybe the CPK was like Bundy?   This is how we can explain Keith & Sandra driving past Grafton.  The CPK was out parting and maybe at the same party as Keith & Sandra and he was hunting his next victims and possibly struck up a discussion with them and learned they were leaving and heading in the direction he wanted to go, then as they were leaving he hitched a ride from them and said that hey you got plenty of time to drop her off could you possibly drop me off first, well we assume Keith had about an hour to get Sandra home, so he probably thought sure.  then the CPK guided them to the turnout on the parkway, abducted them & walked them towards the Indian field creek bridge, this explains the bloodhounds following a scent to the bridge and into the water, CPK might have known a way onto the base at the bridge thru the water and killed them on base property near the river? 

Sounds entirely plausible/possible. The region has pretty much always had a large military presence (Hampton Roads/Tidewater in general). Being a sailor could explain lots of things such as access to diesel fuel, the rope used, the possible usage of a smaller boat to avoid detection, the time between attacks (could've been stationed elsewhere temporarily or overseas), etc.

Here's an updated version with the 1 mile radius in green.

Thanks vrextar, I really feel that if the CPK was a sailor and he had caught a ride with his victims to that area of the Parkway, it was because he felt comfortable there and knew he could get away quickly and be undetected.  I just watched on the news here yesterday a police chase on the highway and the suspect bailed from the car and ran into a neighborhood hopping fences and evading police easily, because he knew the area.  Without a vehicle to leave the crime scene, he had to commit the crimes close to his home.  I looked at the type of vehicles used on the base to transport the ammo to the ships waiting on the pier and they all run on diesel fuel, so this could explain where the diesel fuel came from that had been poured onto Cathy's car? 

[vrextar]

Mar 9, 2019 14:08:18 GMT mustangman said:

Mar 9, 2019 9:14:40 GMT vrextar said:

Sounds entirely plausible/possible. The region has pretty much always had a large military presence (Hampton Roads/Tidewater in general). Being a sailor could explain lots of things such as access to diesel fuel, the rope used, the possible usage of a smaller boat to avoid detection, the time between attacks (could've been stationed elsewhere temporarily or overseas), etc.

Here's an updated version with the 1 mile radius in green.

Thanks vrextar, I really feel that if the CPK was a sailor and he had caught a ride with his victims to that area of the Parkway, it was because he felt comfortable there and knew he could get away quickly and be undetected.  I just watched on the news here yesterday a police chase on the highway and the suspect bailed from the car and ran into a neighborhood hopping fences and evading police easily, because he knew the area.  Without a vehicle to leave the crime scene, he had to commit the crimes close to his home.  I looked at the type of vehicles used on the base to transport the ammo to the ships waiting on the pier and they all run on diesel fuel, so this could explain where the diesel fuel came from that had been poured onto Cathy's car? 

You're welcome, no problem. And yeah what you said here makes a lot of sense. Some might not be aware, but there's actually 2 separate bases within the immediate area. Cheatham Annex is off to the west, closer to where Cathy's car was found, while the Naval Weapons Station is basically right next to where Keith's car was found. Both are Navy bases, so if CPK is a sailor, they could be from either base, or maybe even both?

Not sure if I mentioned this from the photos I took last week, but while I was there I did notice a large truck on either one of the piers or an access road. There were a couple of ships docked nearby at the time, so perhaps they were getting resupplied or something.

[mustangman]

Mar 9, 2019 14:21:55 GMT vrextar said:

Mar 9, 2019 14:08:18 GMT mustangman said:

Thanks vrextar, I really feel that if the CPK was a sailor and he had caught a ride with his victims to that area of the Parkway, it was because he felt comfortable there and knew he could get away quickly and be undetected.  I just watched on the news here yesterday a police chase on the highway and the suspect bailed from the car and ran into a neighborhood hopping fences and evading police easily, because he knew the area.  Without a vehicle to leave the crime scene, he had to commit the crimes close to his home.  I looked at the type of vehicles used on the base to transport the ammo to the ships waiting on the pier and they all run on diesel fuel, so this could explain where the diesel fuel came from that had been poured onto Cathy's car? 

You're welcome, no problem. And yeah what you said here makes a lot of sense. Some might not be aware, but there's actually 2 separate bases within the immediate area. Cheatham Annex is off to the west, closer to where Cathy's car was found, while the Naval Weapons Station is basically right next to where Keith's car was found. Both are Navy bases, so if CPK is a sailor, they could be from either base, or maybe even both?

Not sure if I mentioned this from the photos I took last week, but while I was there I did notice a large truck on either one of the piers or an access road. There were a couple of ships docked nearby at the time, so perhaps they were getting resupplied or something.

The spot where Cathy/Becky were dropped off is at the far extent of the Naval Weapons Station base ending at the King Creek, a good access point to get back onto the base from.  It's over a mile to the next base gate at Cheatham Annex.  Both Cathy & Keith's cars were found along the Naval Weapons Station base.  IMHO if the CPK was a sailor he was stationed at the Weapons Station base, there is too much distance and water to cross to get back to the Cheatham base undetected from either crime scene.  Also the Cheatham Base appears to be way more guarded than the Weapons base, lots of easier access points along the Weapons Station fence line along the Parkway to slip thru and remain undetected.

 

There are always ships docked at the pier, they are being re-supplied with munitions regularly.