Known Victims: Keith Call and Sandra Hailey

[mustangman]

Apr 2, 2019 12:07:40 GMT cleopatra said:

I've been reading alot about tracking dogs.  Very interestding stuff..I read a CIA report, a few different books, etc.  The whole thing is very scientific. lBloodhounds are the best fo  body cell
droppings.  

There's a chance the trails the dogs followed  follwed  were the CPK's.

Yes, this has been brought up before.  I theorized that if the CPK was a Navy personnel stationed at the Weapons Station he had caught a ride from the party with Keith & Sandra, he may have told them he lived just past Grafton or that he was a sailor and didn't want to get in trouble being caught out past bed check and since they left the party early enough that could they drop him off first before Sandra.  (He may have also done this with Cathy & Becky, catching a ride, since LE suspected the ladies might have known their assailant).  Once past Grafton but before reaching the Parkway the CPK killed and hid Keith & Sandra's bodies then drove to the parkway to dropped the car off at the overlook near that overpass near the guard shack that's on the road leading out to the docked ship.  Somehow he was able to return to where the bodies were and gather some of the personal items & clothes to place in Keith's car to make it look like the kids were on the Parkway when they disappeared, not like the car was just dumped there.  Cleo if you take your previous dog scent trail and place it at the correct turnout it appears as if the CPK walked down to the water then towards the security fence at the shoreline (probably looking for a way thru the fence back onto base) then back up to the road and all the way down to the Indian field bridge then he goes under it around the fence and onto the Weapons Station Property.  This does explain how the CPK got away without there being an accomplice or the logistics of two cars being used.  He simply dropped the cars off near where he worked and walked back to his base.  Were there any enlisted Naval personnel in apartments/homes near where David & Robin's bodies were found?  Somewhere that was close to the crime scene that the CPK could just walk too?      

[cleopatra]

Apr 2, 2019 12:07:40 GMT cleopatra said:

I've been reading alot about tracking dogs.  Very interestding stuff.  I've read a CIA report, a few different books, etc.  The whole thing is very scientific. Bloodhounds are the best for tracking using body cells.  

There's a chance the trails the dogs followed were that of the CPK's movements, and not of the victim's themselves (where they walked).

[cleopatra]

Apr 2, 2019 23:56:44 GMT cleopatra said:

Apr 2, 2019 12:07:40 GMT cleopatra said:

I've been reading alot about tracking dogs.  Very interestding stuff.  I've read a CIA report, a few different books, etc.  The whole thing is very scientific. Bloodhounds are the best for tracking using body cells.  

There's a chance the trails the dogs followed were that of the CPK's movements, and not of the victim's themselves (where they walked).

The following theory is based on studies I've read on tracking and trailing dogs.

The victim's body cells could have been falling off their clothes while those clothes were being carried by the killer.  Or, their body cells could have fallen from the killer's body.  Their cells would have transferred to the killer's had the killer made contact with their bodies Or, if the killer touched Keith's car seat and steering wheel, the killer sat on the driver's seat and touched the steering wheel. Keith's cells would have transferred from the seat to the killers back and bottom, and to his hands from the steering wheel.  I read that in a forensic study done on dog tracking.

If the killer sailed away on a boat from under the bridge, more of the victims body cells would have blown off of him by the wind, then landed on the surface of the water where it would have sat afloat.  Waves could have then washed the cells ashore.  Once on the shore (if this is what happened), the cellse would have remained on the ground on the shore. The dogs could have followed the scents coming from those cells.

The trail from the car to the bridge could have been of the killer walking to bridge, then to the water, where the dogs wanted to enter to continue their work. The dogs may have been following Sandra's body cells as well.  If that were the case, despite that it was Sandra's cells the dogs tracked, Keith body cells may have been along side Sandra's cells.  Once the dog's were commanded to follow Sandra's scent/cells, the dogs focused/zeroed in on her cells only, regardless of whether or not Keith's cells were also laying alongside hers.  


Keith's and Sandra's clothes were worn within a 2 hour period of when the dogs arrived.  There would have been an abundance of body cells on their clothing.  And there was a variety of clothing. Each body part has a different strength of cell scents, which bloodhounds and German shepherds can pick up and memorize, then track. Armpits and hands have cells with the strongest scents. The couple's clothing would have had billions of fresh cells, which could have continued to be falling from their clothing for some time.  If the subjects were dead, the cells and their scents ,would change.  The dogs know if they are following cells that dropped from a dead body, and they will signal their handler in whatever way they were trained to do when picking such scents.

If the killer was not carrying their clothing, their body cells still would have  transferred onto the killer - cells that transferred directly from their bodies to the killer, or cells that came from their clothing, or cells that came from the inside of the car.  Once the dogs were made to sniff clothing in order to begin their work, they would have picked up the only scent engrained in their brains, which was of the cells of whichever couple's clothing they just sniffed.  The moment they picked up an identical scent within the area, the dogs tracked it, regardless of how it got there.   

The trail from the steep drop between the car and the shore could have been of cells that the wind carried from the car to the hill and then landed on bush tops, leaves, branches, the ground,  etc. Once such cells landed, they would have remained where they fell.  Especially if there was moisture in the air.  The dogs would have picked up the scents coming from those cells, and followed them.  In this case, up the hill or down the hill.

The dogs were not following scents that came off the bodies of people had been walking. The dogs followed cell droppings, regardless of how they got to where they were.

That is what I suspect happened.  Of course, it is only my speculation.  However, it is based on studies I've read.

[cleopatra]

[(AQ)]

Re-reading more of the case (news articles) two things stood out for me (despite not helping further the case along) but are critical in a detrimental way -

- Rangers didn't call the FBI until the day AFTER they found Keith's car
- Rangers left fingerprints all over the car

Adds to the theory that someone within the Rangers may have had something to do with it, and/or they believed that the Park was more than human life which we've seen via statements made in both the papers and Park brochures

[trabuco]

Apr 2, 2019 17:42:36 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 2, 2019 12:07:40 GMT cleopatra said:

I've been reading alot about tracking dogs.  Very interestding stuff..I read a CIA report, a few different books, etc.  The whole thing is very scientific. lBloodhounds are the best fo  body cell
droppings.  

There's a chance the trails the dogs followed  follwed  were the CPK's.

Yes, this has been brought up before.  I theorized that if the CPK was a Navy personnel stationed at the Weapons Station he had caught a ride from the party with Keith & Sandra, he may have told them he lived just past Grafton or that he was a sailor and didn't want to get in trouble being caught out past bed check and since they left the party early enough that could they drop him off first before Sandra.  (He may have also done this with Cathy & Becky, catching a ride, since LE suspected the ladies might have known their assailant).  Once past Grafton but before reaching the Parkway the CPK killed and hid Keith & Sandra's bodies then drove to the parkway to dropped the car off at the overlook near that overpass near the guard shack that's on the road leading out to the docked ship.  Somehow he was able to return to where the bodies were and gather some of the personal items & clothes to place in Keith's car to make it look like the kids were on the Parkway when they disappeared, not like the car was just dumped there.  Cleo if you take your previous dog scent trail and place it at the correct turnout it appears as if the CPK walked down to the water then towards the security fence at the shoreline (probably looking for a way thru the fence back onto base) then back up to the road and all the way down to the Indian field bridge then he goes under it around the fence and onto the Weapons Station Property.  This does explain how the CPK got away without there being an accomplice or the logistics of two cars being used.  He simply dropped the cars off near where he worked and walked back to his base.  Were there any enlisted Naval personnel in apartments/homes near where David & Robin's bodies were found?  Somewhere that was close to the crime scene that the CPK could just walk too?      

A dead sailor was found in the water. Maybe the CPK killed him and stole his boat?

[mustangman]

Apr 6, 2019 17:39:36 GMT trabuco said:

Apr 2, 2019 17:42:36 GMT mustangman said:

Yes, this has been brought up before.  I theorized that if the CPK was a Navy personnel stationed at the Weapons Station he had caught a ride from the party with Keith & Sandra, he may have told them he lived just past Grafton or that he was a sailor and didn't want to get in trouble being caught out past bed check and since they left the party early enough that could they drop him off first before Sandra.  (He may have also done this with Cathy & Becky, catching a ride, since LE suspected the ladies might have known their assailant).  Once past Grafton but before reaching the Parkway the CPK killed and hid Keith & Sandra's bodies then drove to the parkway to dropped the car off at the overlook near that overpass near the guard shack that's on the road leading out to the docked ship.  Somehow he was able to return to where the bodies were and gather some of the personal items & clothes to place in Keith's car to make it look like the kids were on the Parkway when they disappeared, not like the car was just dumped there.  Cleo if you take your previous dog scent trail and place it at the correct turnout it appears as if the CPK walked down to the water then towards the security fence at the shoreline (probably looking for a way thru the fence back onto base) then back up to the road and all the way down to the Indian field bridge then he goes under it around the fence and onto the Weapons Station Property.  This does explain how the CPK got away without there being an accomplice or the logistics of two cars being used.  He simply dropped the cars off near where he worked and walked back to his base.  Were there any enlisted Naval personnel in apartments/homes near where David & Robin's bodies were found?  Somewhere that was close to the crime scene that the CPK could just walk too?      

A dead sailor was found in the water. Maybe the CPK killed him and stole his boat?

Hi Trabuco, I think I've read on here that the sailor was known have fallen off a ship and this was about two weeks earlier, they just happen to find him while they searched for the kids...  I think Cleo had mentioned this before.

[trabuco]

Apr 6, 2019 17:47:52 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 6, 2019 17:39:36 GMT trabuco said:

A dead sailor was found in the water. Maybe the CPK killed him and stole his boat?

Hi Trabuco, I think I've read on here that the sailor was known have fallen off a ship and this was about two weeks earlier, they just happen to find him while they searched for the kids...  I think Cleo had mentioned this before.

The Highway Dept personnel found a dead body off the highway around the same time LE was searching for Lauer/Phelps. I was just pointing out another dead body but you are right, the sailor was said to have fallen off a ship. 

[cleopatra]

He fell off a boat and drowned 2 weeks earlier. 

The info is  in the thread titled something like Dead Man Found In Water.  He was a merchant marine and there were less than 15 people on the boat, yet no on reported him missing. 

[billthom56]

Mar 31, 2019 4:43:16 GMT trabuco said:

Thanks for answering my question.

Here is another question.

It was said that Keith and Cassandra went on a date. After Keith picked her up they went to some kind of cook-out.

Is it known where this cook-out took place and who hosted it?

I recall a Medical Examiner saying undigested beans were found in David Knobling which suggests beans were the last thing he ate.

Could David and Robin have been to a cook-out as well?

Wait, we need to sort some things out.

Keith and Cassandra went to a party at University Square Apartments.  It was a college party with lots of beer, perhaps even a keg.  I have never heard it described by Joyce, Chris or Doug Call as a cookout, and I have also spoken to people who attended the party directly.  I speak to Joyce the most often.

They went missing on a Friday night/Saturday morning, not during the week.

From my recent interviews with Michael Knobling, he never mentioned a cookout, either.

The Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge parking lot by the James River Bridge, where David Knobling's pickup truck was found, was and is definitely a place that known for low level drug deals and gay encounters.  Then and now.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

[trabuco]

Apr 6, 2019 21:23:25 GMT cleopatra said:

He fell off a boat and drowned 2 weeks earlier. 

The info is  in the thread titled something like Dead Man Found In Water.  He was a merchant marine and there were less than 15 people on the boat, yet no on reported him missing. 

I did forget about reading this. Thanks for re-posting.

Now I have another question.

Why would the others not report this man who fell off the boat?

Or, did they report it and nothing was done?

But how could that be? If a report was made to LE about a man falling off of a boat

then LE would have been searching for that man. No?

Would the man who fell over have to be missing for 48 hours before LE began their search?

I'm asking. Because I don't know.

Is it known who found his body?

I apologize if I'm getting off topic but I think it is important to get answers to all of the questions

that still linger from that time and place.

Evil is evil. It lurks up and down, to and fro in the earth seeking whom it may devour.

[trabuco]

Apr 7, 2019 13:27:11 GMT billthom56 said:

Mar 31, 2019 4:43:16 GMT trabuco said:

Thanks for answering my question.

Here is another question.

It was said that Keith and Cassandra went on a date. After Keith picked her up they went to some kind of cook-out.

Is it known where this cook-out took place and who hosted it?

I recall a Medical Examiner saying undigested beans were found in David Knobling which suggests beans were the last thing he ate.

Could David and Robin have been to a cook-out as well?

Wait, we need to sort some things out.

Keith and Cassandra went to a party at University Square Apartments.  It was a college party with lots of beer, perhaps even a keg.  I have never heard it described by Joyce, Chris or Doug Call as a cookout, and I have also spoken to people who attended the party directly.  I speak to Joyce the most often.

They went missing on a Friday night/Saturday morning, not during the week.

From my recent interviews with Michael Knobling, he never mentioned a cookout, either.

The Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge parking lot by the James River Bridge, where David Knobling's pickup truck was found, was and is definitely a place that known for low level drug deals and gay encounters.  Then and now.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

Sorry Bill but I read an article on the internet that said Keith and Cassandra went to a "cook-out."

I don't remember what article it was. I was just going off of it not thinking it could have been inaccurate.

[billthom56]

Trabuco:

Not a problem-- let's not go down any rabbit holes (like there aren't plenty of them already in the Colonial Parkway Murders.)

Thanks.



Bill

[mustangman]

Apr 6, 2019 18:25:48 GMT trabuco said:

Apr 6, 2019 17:47:52 GMT mustangman said:

Hi Trabuco, I think I've read on here that the sailor was known have fallen off a ship and this was about two weeks earlier, they just happen to find him while they searched for the kids...  I think Cleo had mentioned this before.

The Highway Dept personnel found a dead body off the highway around the same time LE was searching for Lauer/Phelps. I was just pointing out another dead body but you are right, the sailor was said to have fallen off a ship. 

Yep, I mostly just wanted to mention the body of the sailor having been known already missing.  some of the newbies on here would get confused reading that another body was found in the water while LE searched for Keith/Sandra, when his body had nothing to do with the CPK.   I have to admit, I even forgot about the sailors body and had to spend time reading old posts to refresh my memory.   thanks

[trabuco]

Apr 7, 2019 14:03:44 GMT billthom56 said:

Trabuco:

Not a problem-- let's not go down any rabbit holes (like there aren't plenty of them already in the Colonial Parkway Murders.)

Thanks.



Bill

That is what we are up against here when we don't know all of the details and / or when details vary depending on who you ask. We can't speak much truth. We can speculate. But we can't speak the truth as much as the killer can. I don't think anyone here would intentionally attempt to take us down any rabbit holes. But I do get the gest of your message. Thanks.