David Knobling and Robin Edwards (UPDATE: SOLVED! See pg 20)

[fossilnerd]

Apr 7, 2021 22:02:32 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 7, 2021 14:22:19 GMT daedra said:

Interesting. I wonder if there are any DOT facilities or gated areas b/e Christopher Newport U and Cassandra's home. I've always wondered where they were confronted and we may be able to narrow down some options based on what seems to be a pattern of criteria that CPK uses to choose his hunting grounds. I'll do some mapping after work today. 

There is a VDOT site location in Grafton very near route 17 and close to the Parkway, perhaps the killer abducted Keith/Cassandra just before Keith dropped off Cassandra at her house and took them to this building site and killed or subdued them there and then drove their car to the parkway and returned to kill or dispose of the bodies later?  I also wonder if these VDOT workers rotate work assignments and also work in the Nation Parks?

View Attachment

The idea that the killer abducted 4 young, strong people, took them to a building, kept them captive, killed them there, moved dead bodies in their vehicles, then removed the bodies from the vehicle (David/Robin), drove a car around with victims killed 2 days prior (Dowski/Thomas), etc, is interesting but in my opinion, is unlikely because it contains unnecessary steps...and risky steps for a killer trying not to be found. With Dowski/Thomas, Bill Thomas has indicated that the car was likely there on the bluff all 3 days, and wouldn't easily be seen from the top.

The killer seems to have been prepared to kill. Like Bill Thomas has said, he brought his "murder kit" (in the case of Dowski/Thomas) and took everything with him.

It seems unlikely that he might have found it necessary to abduct, hold hostage, kill, then relocate the bodies, when he could instead strike in the darkness, dispose of the bodies where he killed them, and move the vehicle.

Why wouldn't he just have killed them there, moved the cars, and disappeared? Even holding someone at gunpoint while they're driving public streets seems risky for a killer who leaves behind no identifying evidence. In the case of Robin Edwards and David Knobling, he'd have had to ride beside them, nearest the door, to have held a gun on both.

[daedra]

Apr 16, 2021 13:35:11 GMT fossilnerd said:

Apr 7, 2021 22:02:32 GMT mustangman said:

There is a VDOT site location in Grafton very near route 17 and close to the Parkway, perhaps the killer abducted Keith/Cassandra just before Keith dropped off Cassandra at her house and took them to this building site and killed or subdued them there and then drove their car to the parkway and returned to kill or dispose of the bodies later?  I also wonder if these VDOT workers rotate work assignments and also work in the Nation Parks?

View Attachment

The idea that the killer abducted 4 young, strong people, took them to a building, kept them captive, killed them there, moved dead bodies in their vehicles, then removed the bodies from the vehicle (David/Robin), drove a car around with victims killed 2 days prior (Dowski/Thomas), etc, is interesting but in my opinion, is unlikely because it contains unnecessary steps...and risky steps for a killer trying not to be found. With Dowski/Thomas, Bill Thomas has indicated that the car was likely there on the bluff all 3 days, and wouldn't easily be seen from the top.

The killer seems to have been prepared to kill. Like Bill Thomas has said, he brought his "murder kit" (in the case of Dowski/Thomas) and took everything with him.

It seems unlikely that he might have found it necessary to abduct, hold hostage, kill, then relocate the bodies, when he could instead strike in the darkness, dispose of the bodies where he killed them, and move the vehicle.

Why wouldn't he just have killed them there, moved the cars, and disappeared? Even holding someone at gunpoint while they're driving public streets seems risky for a killer who leaves behind no identifying evidence. In the case of Robin Edwards and David Knobling, he'd have had to ride beside them, nearest the door, to have held a gun on both.

I agree. Abducting couples, holding them captive, and transporting them (either dead or alive) to multiple locations introduces an incredible amount of risk and complexity to the situation. So many things can go wrong. And I just don't see any motive for why CPK would hold the couples captive. He didn't assault or torture them. He didn't try to ransom them back or pry information out of them. I just can't imagine why he would take such a huge risk to take captives if he wasn't going to do anything with them. I think these crimes were relatively quick and that CPK was out as soon as his victims were dead and the car was staged. 

[cleopatra]

Apr 16, 2021 11:22:31 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 9, 2021 2:05:22 GMT cleopatra said:

Daedra,

You are correct.  That's where the bodies were found.

Cleo

Cleo, do you have an official map from LE that shows the spot that you & daedra are saying is where Danial/Anna's bodies were found?  I have never read that the logging road was this close to I-64??  No current or previous historical map shows a logging road so close to the highway here?   From all accounts that I have read they were found further down N. Courthouse rd. closer to Carps Corner off of a logging road.  

I cannot find an official map.

However, in an October 1989 newspaper clipping reporting the two bodies being found, the location is described as a clearing at the end of a dirt road off R155 (N. Courthouse Road), one mile north of I64, on private property.  

[daedra]

Apr 16, 2021 14:33:47 GMT cleopatra said:

Apr 16, 2021 11:22:31 GMT mustangman said:

Cleo, do you have an official map from LE that shows the spot that you & daedra are saying is where Danial/Anna's bodies were found?  I have never read that the logging road was this close to I-64??  No current or previous historical map shows a logging road so close to the highway here?   From all accounts that I have read they were found further down N. Courthouse rd. closer to Carps Corner off of a logging road.  

I cannot find an official map.

However, in an October 1989 newspaper clipping reporting the two bodies being found, the location is described as a clearing at the end of a dirt road off R155 (N. Courthouse Road), one mile north of I64, on private property.  

Hmm the one mile distance does put the location farther north of I64 than I initially imagined 

[mustangman]

Apr 16, 2021 14:33:47 GMT cleopatra said:

Apr 16, 2021 11:22:31 GMT mustangman said:

Cleo, do you have an official map from LE that shows the spot that you & daedra are saying is where Danial/Anna's bodies were found?  I have never read that the logging road was this close to I-64??  No current or previous historical map shows a logging road so close to the highway here?   From all accounts that I have read they were found further down N. Courthouse rd. closer to Carps Corner off of a logging road.  

I cannot find an official map.

However, in an October 1989 newspaper clipping reporting the two bodies being found, the location is described as a clearing at the end of a dirt road off R155 (N. Courthouse Road), one mile north of I64, on private property.  

ok, so the location is about right where I showed it in my earlier post. thanks Cleo.

So we do have VDOT or County Public Works buildings between or very near (within 1/4 mile) the locations where Daniel, Anna, David & Robin's bodies were found.

[cleopatra]

Apr 16, 2021 17:45:17 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 16, 2021 14:33:47 GMT cleopatra said:

I cannot find an official map.

However, in an October 1989 newspaper clipping reporting the two bodies being found, the location is described as a clearing at the end of a dirt road off R155 (N. Courthouse Road), one mile north of I64, on private property.  

ok, so the location is about right where I showed it in my earlier post. thanks Cleo.

So we do have VDOT or County Public Works buildings between or very near (within 1/4 mile) the locations where Daniel, Anna, David & Robin's bodies were found.

Here's a crime scene photo taken from above:

[mustangman]

Apr 16, 2021 12:56:33 GMT tosh said:

Apr 16, 2021 11:22:31 GMT mustangman said:

Cleo, do you have an official map from LE that shows the spot that you & daedra are saying is where Danial/Anna's bodies were found?  I have never read that the logging road was this close to I-64??  No current or previous historical map shows a logging road so close to the highway here?   From all accounts that I have read they were found further down N. Courthouse rd. closer to Carps Corner off of a logging road.  

Like you Mustangman, I thought it was SR 604 (secondary Road,) on googlemaps you can vaguely see a chain across it (I think) with a red square in the middle and a yellow sign at the entrance. An early press report immediately after the bodies were discovered marks it as being the location - though it's not the most detailed of maps. Sorry I don't have time to post it now but can do later.

Right, this is also the location that I saw in early reports of where the bodies were found.  Interesting that the photo Cleo just posted shows the Kent County Public Works in it.  You can clearly make out the property's unique triangular shape but the pic Cleo posted is a reverse image of the actual scene.  and the Logging road is right across the street from the end of the original Public works driveway.  The driveway has since changed location and now telephone lines run along the old driveway.  SR 604 does appear to be the same logging road shown in crime scene pics and this is much closer to I-64 than I thought. 

 

[tosh]

Apr 17, 2021 15:02:54 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 16, 2021 12:56:33 GMT tosh said:

Like you Mustangman, I thought it was SR 604 (secondary Road,) on googlemaps you can vaguely see a chain across it (I think) with a red square in the middle and a yellow sign at the entrance. An early press report immediately after the bodies were discovered marks it as being the location - though it's not the most detailed of maps. Sorry I don't have time to post it now but can do later.

Right, this is also the location that I saw in early reports of where the bodies were found.  Interesting that the photo Cleo just posted shows the Kent County Public Works in it.  You can clearly make out the property's unique triangular shape but the pic Cleo posted is a reverse image of the actual scene.  and the Logging road is right across the street from the end of the original Public works driveway.  The driveway has since changed location and now telephone lines run along the old driveway.  SR 604 does appear to be the same logging road shown in crime scene pics and this is much closer to I-64 than I thought. 

 

This is the map from Daily Press, Friday 20th October, 1989, the remains of Daniel and Annamaria were discovered the morning before on Thursday 19th October, 1989.


I’ve circled the entrance to the logging road on the map below and yes you are right the Department of Public Works building is a short distance away.

[mustangman]

Apr 17, 2021 16:29:14 GMT tosh said:

Apr 17, 2021 15:02:54 GMT mustangman said:

Right, this is also the location that I saw in early reports of where the bodies were found.  Interesting that the photo Cleo just posted shows the Kent County Public Works in it.  You can clearly make out the property's unique triangular shape but the pic Cleo posted is a reverse image of the actual scene.  and the Logging road is right across the street from the end of the original Public works driveway.  The driveway has since changed location and now telephone lines run along the old driveway.  SR 604 does appear to be the same logging road shown in crime scene pics and this is much closer to I-64 than I thought. 

 

This is the map from Daily Press, Friday 20th October, 1989, the remains of Daniel and Annamaria were discovered the morning before on Thursday 19th October, 1989.
View Attachment

I’ve circled the entrance to the logging road on the map below and yes you are right the Department of Public Works building is a short distance away.
View Attachment

Thanks Tosh, I cant help wonder if CPK may have had some job with VDOT or he was LE and familiar with these locations possibly thru his routine patrols.

[daedra]

Apr 17, 2021 18:25:54 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 17, 2021 16:29:14 GMT tosh said:

This is the map from Daily Press, Friday 20th October, 1989, the remains of Daniel and Annamaria were discovered the morning before on Thursday 19th October, 1989.
View Attachment

I’ve circled the entrance to the logging road on the map below and yes you are right the Department of Public Works building is a short distance away.
View Attachment

Thanks Tosh, I cant help wonder if CPK may have had some job with VDOT or he was LE and familiar with these locations possibly thru his routine patrols.

The property also bordered land that belonged to a private hunting club, so a game warden may have been familiar with the area as well. Ragged Island was also patrolled by a warden because hunting and fishing took place there. I wonder if the seasonality of the attacks had any overlap with hunting seasons in the area? All but one attack took place in fall. 

[cleopatra]

Apr 17, 2021 18:25:54 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 17, 2021 16:29:14 GMT tosh said:

This is the map from Daily Press, Friday 20th October, 1989, the remains of Daniel and Annamaria were discovered the morning before on Thursday 19th October, 1989.
View Attachment

I’ve circled the entrance to the logging road on the map below and yes you are right the Department of Public Works building is a short distance away.
View Attachment

Thanks Tosh, I cant help wonder if CPK may have had some job with VDOT or he was LE and familiar with these locations possibly thru his routine patrols.

I'm continuing with my posts on this topic in the Lauer-Phelps thread....I'll be posting pics of the road leading to entrance of the trail.....   - cleo

[billthom56]

Apr 17, 2021 22:40:06 GMT daedra said:

Apr 17, 2021 18:25:54 GMT mustangman said:

Thanks Tosh, I cant help wonder if CPK may have had some job with VDOT or he was LE and familiar with these locations possibly thru his routine patrols.

The property also bordered land that belonged to a private hunting club, so a game warden may have been familiar with the area as well. Ragged Island was also patrolled by a warden because hunting and fishing took place there. I wonder if the seasonality of the attacks had any overlap with hunting seasons in the area? All but one attack took place in fall. 

Daedra and Mustang:

The old logging area property where Annamaria Phelps and Daniel Lauer were found was owned by the hunt club.  Hunters were the people who found the bodies in October 1989. One and the same.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

[daedra]

Just listened to the Knobling/Edwards episodes of Mind Over Murder. billthom56 -- just wanted to say the podcast is so well put together and you and Kristin are always so gracious, sensitive, and understanding with the family members. It's so nice to hear the story from their perspectives as well as some of the happier memories of their loved ones. Thanks for providing that platform!

One thing that caught my attention -- during the podcast, there's some back and forth about whether David or Robin had ever been to Ragged Island before the night of the murder. I found this newspaper clipping where one of David's girlfriends seems to indicate that they'd gone out there together at some point:



According to the GF, it sounds like he was at least somewhat familiar with the location? Just wanted to add that as it might indicate he went out there voluntarily as opposed to being forced there or the car moved from a different location by the killer. 

[billthom56]

Aug 25, 2021 1:53:19 GMT daedra said:

Just listened to the Knobling/Edwards episodes of Mind Over Murder. billthom56 -- just wanted to say the podcast is so well put together and you and Kristin are always so gracious, sensitive, and understanding with the family members. It's so nice to hear the story from their perspectives as well as some of the happier memories of their loved ones. Thanks for providing that platform!

One thing that caught my attention -- during the podcast, there's some back and forth about whether David or Robin had ever been to Ragged Island before the night of the murder. I found this newspaper clipping where one of David's girlfriends seems to indicate that they'd gone out there together at some point:

View Attachment

According to the GF, it sounds like he was at least somewhat familiar with the location? Just wanted to add that as it might indicate he went out there voluntarily as opposed to being forced there or the car moved from a different location by the killer. 

Daedra:

Excellent point-- keep in mind that we were talking with David's mother Judy, who might not have known all of the places David went with his girlfriends.

I know my Mom wouldn't have known those details when I was in high school.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

[daedra]

Aug 25, 2021 17:07:01 GMT billthom56 said:

Aug 25, 2021 1:53:19 GMT daedra said:

Just listened to the Knobling/Edwards episodes of Mind Over Murder. billthom56 -- just wanted to say the podcast is so well put together and you and Kristin are always so gracious, sensitive, and understanding with the family members. It's so nice to hear the story from their perspectives as well as some of the happier memories of their loved ones. Thanks for providing that platform!

One thing that caught my attention -- during the podcast, there's some back and forth about whether David or Robin had ever been to Ragged Island before the night of the murder. I found this newspaper clipping where one of David's girlfriends seems to indicate that they'd gone out there together at some point:

View Attachment

According to the GF, it sounds like he was at least somewhat familiar with the location? Just wanted to add that as it might indicate he went out there voluntarily as opposed to being forced there or the car moved from a different location by the killer. 

Daedra:

Excellent point-- keep in mind that we were talking with David's mother Judy, who might not have known all of the places David went with his girlfriends.

I know my Mom wouldn't have know those details when I was in high school.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

Totally! I was once a sneaky teen myself lol. When I heard Judy say she'd never heard of Ragged Island before all I could think of was that my mom didn't know where I went to score weed in high school either.