Could the CPK be using a BOAT?

[cleopatra]

Apr 10, 2019 23:39:11 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Oct 15, 2018 5:23:24 GMT billthom56 said:

Hoth:

The boat and truck idea is a good discussion, as is the diesel fuel in Cathy and Becky's case, which is of my favorite points of discussion. It has stuck out for me since the beginning of this case.

One thing to keep in mind, though for Cathy/Becky and Keith/Cassandra if they actually happened on the Colonial Parkway: there are no trucks allowed there, so that might reduce the chance we are looking for  truck driver.

I was on the Colonial Parkway at night a few months ago, and happened to see an NPS ranger pull over a big truck for driving on the Parkway.  No way is anything like big rig going to drive on a controlled, passenger cars only road like the Colonial Parkway.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

Do you think it's possible, knowing the details, that the killer could have come ashore from a motorboat (probably using a smaller boat to get directly on the sand) with a fuel can for the purpose of getting victims to trust him/let him into their car by telling the victims he was out of gas, and asking if they could take him to get some?

It would make more sense than thinking that one of them would have gotten out of the car, I guess. It seems to me that those two girls would have probably just started the car and gotten out of there if they were approached by someone brandishing a weapon or screaming at / intimidating them. After all, they'd have been safer in the car, if they were trying to get away from a dangerous dude who was outside of the car.

I can't imagine any other scenario that would cause two intelligent females to let a dude carrying a fuel can into their car.

If he didn't use the fuel can as a ploy, perhaps he'd planned to, but then gained access into the car via unlocked doors. He could then have surprised and overpowered them both, and might not have had to get them outside of the car.

Just some thoughts...

cretaceousdune,

Anything is possible.  I suspect the killer used a boat, as well.  Motorboats are pretty fast.  no stoplights, stop signs, no turns.  Just straight shots to ones destination.  A boat can speed from one end of the river to the other and at 80-100MPH, it could get to places situated along the shores much faster than cars.  A boater familiar with the James and York Rivers could shoot across the water with ease.  I suspect the killer went straight home after his crimes, to a house with a dock.

Of course, this is merely speculation, but I based it on 1. there's water next to every crime scene 2. and a bridge or overpass (where I think he hid a boat under) 3. Dogs tracked victims Keith's and Sandra's scents from Keith's car, all the way to the Indian Field Creek overpass, then to under the bridge where the dogs wanted to enter the water to continue their work. When the dogs were placed on a boat, they followed the scents 70 yards out into the York river.  Either the dogs followed the scents of the victims themselves or they followed the killer who had the victim's scents on him.  I lean toward that the dogs followed the killer sailing away on a boat.

The victims never washed ashore.  At least one of them should have washed up, but neither of them did. The water flows downward/downhill/south bound, then waves splash toward the land, hitting the shores,westward. Those waves would have pushed the bodies up onto a shore or pocket of water long before they could have reached the ocean.  I believe the killer buried the victims then drove to the Parkway,  parked the car at the turnabout, walked the Parkway toward the overpass at Indian Field Creek, went under the bridge to where he hid a boat earlier, then sailed away.  

The killer planned his crimes. He didn't want to get caught. He didn't want anyone to see him or his vehicle anywhere at all in the areas the crimes took place.  He wouldn't want anyone saying, "Hey CPK, I was saw you driving on BLAH BLAH the other night at 4 in the morning. Where were you headed?"  or, "yeah, I think I saw your truck parked up on the overpass there at the entrance to the Parkway.  I'm sure it was your truck" or "yeah - I saw you getting into your car at 4 AM at BLAH BLAH....  He didn't want to chance anyone seeing him walking on the road - "Yes, I saw a man in a blue jacket walking that way, he was white, blonde, around 3 AM.  I think I saw him get into a yellow truck....".  A boat would ascertain not being seen at all, at any time, anywhere within miles of the crimes.  No one would be looking for a boater suspect.  No one has.

The boat getaway theory is only one of my theories.  But it is on the top of my list.  
Cleo

[mustangman]

Apr 10, 2019 23:39:11 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Oct 15, 2018 5:23:24 GMT billthom56 said:

Hoth:

The boat and truck idea is a good discussion, as is the diesel fuel in Cathy and Becky's case, which is of my favorite points of discussion. It has stuck out for me since the beginning of this case.

One thing to keep in mind, though for Cathy/Becky and Keith/Cassandra if they actually happened on the Colonial Parkway: there are no trucks allowed there, so that might reduce the chance we are looking for  truck driver.

I was on the Colonial Parkway at night a few months ago, and happened to see an NPS ranger pull over a big truck for driving on the Parkway.  No way is anything like big rig going to drive on a controlled, passenger cars only road like the Colonial Parkway.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

Do you think it's possible, knowing the details, that the killer could have come ashore from a motorboat (probably using a smaller boat to get directly on the sand) with a fuel can for the purpose of getting victims to trust him/let him into their car by telling the victims he was out of gas, and asking if they could take him to get some?

It would make more sense than thinking that one of them would have gotten out of the car, I guess. It seems to me that those two girls would have probably just started the car and gotten out of there if they were approached by someone brandishing a weapon or screaming at / intimidating them. After all, they'd have been safer in the car, if they were trying to get away from a dangerous dude who was outside of the car.

I can't imagine any other scenario that would cause two intelligent females to let a dude carrying a fuel can into their car.

If he didn't use the fuel can as a ploy, perhaps he'd planned to, but then gained access into the car via unlocked doors. He could then have surprised and overpowered them both, and might not have had to get them outside of the car.

Just some thoughts...

I posted this a few months back about the Diesel fuel can being used as a ploy or way to get the girls out of their car....  in the "Diesel Fuel" thread.

Mustangman said:

Another possibility, that I haven't heard of yet, is that the CPK knew that the diesel fuel wouldn't light with matches. CPK came upon Cathy/Becky sitting in their car and poured the gas onto the car and stood back throwing the matches at the car as a way to get the girls out of the car. Now maybe he could have had water in the gas can and did the same thing, but if it didn't smell like gas I'd just start my car and drive away, but if it smelled like a flammable liquid, I'd be afraid of fire and maybe not know or remember that diesel takes more than matches to light. Maybe the windows were down and little bit of diesel splashed onto the woman and they didn't know in their moment of fear that diesel wouldn't light easily with matches and obeyed the CPK's demands to get out of the car or he would burn them. This might explain how a single killer had control over two young strong women. He may have attacked Becky first and while he subdued her Cathy attacked him pulling his hair as a way to get him off Becky, he then subdued Cathy and finished binding them with the rope. He then killed them, removed the bindings, put them in the back of the car and pushed it over the embankment. The gas trail from where the car was doused with gas to where it ended up over the embankment was just gas that dripped from the car as it was pushed. I don't think CPK ever intended to light the car on fire, it would have been a huge blaze that would've attracted way too much attention. This guy was way too stealthy to light a huge fire.

[Cretaceous Dune]

Apr 10, 2019 21:36:46 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

I've thought since the murders first happened that the killer used a boat. Having grown up in Gloucester, I know that boats are a way of life there and that having a boat in the water at night would not likely cause suspicion.

I doubt the killer used a car, really. I think that he probably anchored his boat near shore, close to the parking spots until he saw car lights. He probably spotted a car, came ashore using a small boat, did his horrible deeds, then got back on his boat and motored away.

That would explain the three coastal locations. Perhaps he had some sort of badge he showed?

Come to think of it, he wouldn't have needed a law enforcement uniform or a badge IF he was carrying a fuel can, showing the victims that he needed gas. That would explain the partially-rolled down driver's window.

He could easily have used the same trick for Call/Hailey, Knobling/Edwards, and Lauer/Phelps.

[Cretaceous Dune]

Apr 11, 2019 15:04:21 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 10, 2019 23:39:11 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Do you think it's possible, knowing the details, that the killer could have come ashore from a motorboat (probably using a smaller boat to get directly on the sand) with a fuel can for the purpose of getting victims to trust him/let him into their car by telling the victims he was out of gas, and asking if they could take him to get some?

It would make more sense than thinking that one of them would have gotten out of the car, I guess. It seems to me that those two girls would have probably just started the car and gotten out of there if they were approached by someone brandishing a weapon or screaming at / intimidating them. After all, they'd have been safer in the car, if they were trying to get away from a dangerous dude who was outside of the car.

I can't imagine any other scenario that would cause two intelligent females to let a dude carrying a fuel can into their car.

If he didn't use the fuel can as a ploy, perhaps he'd planned to, but then gained access into the car via unlocked doors. He could then have surprised and overpowered them both, and might not have had to get them outside of the car.

Just some thoughts...

I posted this a few months back about the Diesel fuel can being used as a ploy or way to get the girls out of their car....  in the "Diesel Fuel" thread.

Mustangman said:

Another possibility, that I haven't heard of yet, is that the CPK knew that the diesel fuel wouldn't light with matches. CPK came upon Cathy/Becky sitting in their car and poured the gas onto the car and stood back throwing the matches at the car as a way to get the girls out of the car. Now maybe he could have had water in the gas can and did the same thing, but if it didn't smell like gas I'd just start my car and drive away, but if it smelled like a flammable liquid, I'd be afraid of fire and maybe not know or remember that diesel takes more than matches to light. Maybe the windows were down and little bit of diesel splashed onto the woman and they didn't know in their moment of fear that diesel wouldn't light easily with matches and obeyed the CPK's demands to get out of the car or he would burn them. This might explain how a single killer had control over two young strong women. He may have attacked Becky first and while he subdued her Cathy attacked him pulling his hair as a way to get him off Becky, he then subdued Cathy and finished binding them with the rope. He then killed them, removed the bindings, put them in the back of the car and pushed it over the embankment. The gas trail from where the car was doused with gas to where it ended up over the embankment was just gas that dripped from the car as it was pushed. I don't think CPK ever intended to light the car on fire, it would have been a huge blaze that would've attracted way too much attention. This guy was way too stealthy to light a huge fire.

Could be, but I think that standing there trying to flush them out with diesel fuel would be a mistake for someone who's trying not to get caught.

His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there, since he was outdoors and easily discoverable in a public place. He probably smoked, and used the matches to light the ciggs, if the ciggs were smoked at that point, and not earlier by someone else.

Also, matches may have been preferable to a lighter because a lighter would be more likely to reveal a full fingerprint.

Also, I don't think that, in the Call/Hailey case, he would have risked driving someone else's car to a location to bury them, then return with the car. Way, way too risky in such a small community, where anyone could recognize someone else's car. I think he used the fuel can as a tool, got Keith out of the car to let the dude in the back seat, the killer held Keith at gunpoint, then made Sandra exit the vehicle. I think he forced them to go down to the water, forced them onto his boat, then killed them. I think that he then headed across the York River to a boat ramp, probably public, where he loaded the bodies onto a truck and disposed of them.

I think that he then took his truck with his boat pulled behind it home. He wouldn't even need his own pier, though it'd likely make it easier if he did. He could have just used one of the many boat ramps around; it's nothing unusual to see a truck parked at a boat ramp.

[mustangman]

Apr 11, 2019 16:00:35 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Apr 11, 2019 15:04:21 GMT mustangman said:

I posted this a few months back about the Diesel fuel can being used as a ploy or way to get the girls out of their car....  in the "Diesel Fuel" thread.

Mustangman said:

Another possibility, that I haven't heard of yet, is that the CPK knew that the diesel fuel wouldn't light with matches. CPK came upon Cathy/Becky sitting in their car and poured the gas onto the car and stood back throwing the matches at the car as a way to get the girls out of the car. Now maybe he could have had water in the gas can and did the same thing, but if it didn't smell like gas I'd just start my car and drive away, but if it smelled like a flammable liquid, I'd be afraid of fire and maybe not know or remember that diesel takes more than matches to light. Maybe the windows were down and little bit of diesel splashed onto the woman and they didn't know in their moment of fear that diesel wouldn't light easily with matches and obeyed the CPK's demands to get out of the car or he would burn them. This might explain how a single killer had control over two young strong women. He may have attacked Becky first and while he subdued her Cathy attacked him pulling his hair as a way to get him off Becky, he then subdued Cathy and finished binding them with the rope. He then killed them, removed the bindings, put them in the back of the car and pushed it over the embankment. The gas trail from where the car was doused with gas to where it ended up over the embankment was just gas that dripped from the car as it was pushed. I don't think CPK ever intended to light the car on fire, it would have been a huge blaze that would've attracted way too much attention. This guy was way too stealthy to light a huge fire.

Could be, but I think that standing there trying to flush them out with diesel fuel would be a mistake for someone who's trying not to get caught.

His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there, since he was outdoors and easily discoverable in a public place. He probably smoked, and used the matches to light the ciggs, if the ciggs were smoked at that point, and not earlier by someone else.

Also, matches may have been preferable to a lighter because a lighter would be more likely to reveal a full fingerprint.

Also, I don't think that, in the Call/Hailey case, he would have risked driving someone else's car to a location to bury them, then return with the car. Way, way too risky in such a small community, where anyone could recognize someone else's car. I think he used the fuel can as a tool, got Keith out of the car to let the dude in the back seat, the killer held Keith at gunpoint, then made Sandra exit the vehicle. I think he forced them to go down to the water, forced them onto his boat, then killed them. I think that he then headed across the York River to a boat ramp, probably public, where he loaded the bodies onto a truck and disposed of them.

I think that he then took his truck with his boat pulled behind it home. He wouldn't even need his own pier, though it'd likely make it easier if he did. He could have just used one of the many boat ramps around; it's nothing unusual to see a truck parked at a boat ramp.

"for someone who's trying not to get caught".....   why pour the gas all over the car and on the bodies inside of it, unless you intended to light a blaze? 

 

"His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there,".....    why go to the time and effort to push the car over the embankment?

The main issue I have with the CPK using a boat as his choice of transportation in a few of the murders is that he would've had to park his boat at each place where the victims cars were found, then walk for miles along the parkway or road with this gas can in his hand to find his victims, then convince them to help him, then produce a gun, knife or rope and abduct them and make them drive to wherever he had parked his boat.  How long do we think it would take for someone to do all this and return to their boat and it still be there or not have been found by Rangers, LE or Naval patrols near the Cheatham Annex?  Remember Keith was driving from Newport University to drop off Sandra in Grafton, which is miles away from where his car was found on the Parkway.  Keith's car was found right next to a road that leads out to Navy ships being reloaded with ammunition, and no Navy guard or patrol saw a boat anchored there for possibly hours?

Also of note here is that any small engine boat runs on regular fuel, not diesel.  it would've had to been a much larger ship if it ran on diesel fuel, making it hard to have been hidden from being seen by any witness.

I'm not knocking the "boat theory", but the logistics of using a boat in these murders seems impractical?  IMHO.

[Cretaceous Dune]

Apr 11, 2019 16:46:40 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 11, 2019 16:00:35 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Could be, but I think that standing there trying to flush them out with diesel fuel would be a mistake for someone who's trying not to get caught.

His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there, since he was outdoors and easily discoverable in a public place. He probably smoked, and used the matches to light the ciggs, if the ciggs were smoked at that point, and not earlier by someone else.

Also, matches may have been preferable to a lighter because a lighter would be more likely to reveal a full fingerprint.

Also, I don't think that, in the Call/Hailey case, he would have risked driving someone else's car to a location to bury them, then return with the car. Way, way too risky in such a small community, where anyone could recognize someone else's car. I think he used the fuel can as a tool, got Keith out of the car to let the dude in the back seat, the killer held Keith at gunpoint, then made Sandra exit the vehicle. I think he forced them to go down to the water, forced them onto his boat, then killed them. I think that he then headed across the York River to a boat ramp, probably public, where he loaded the bodies onto a truck and disposed of them.

I think that he then took his truck with his boat pulled behind it home. He wouldn't even need his own pier, though it'd likely make it easier if he did. He could have just used one of the many boat ramps around; it's nothing unusual to see a truck parked at a boat ramp.

"for someone who's trying not to get caught".....   why pour the gas all over the car and on the bodies inside of it, unless you intended to light a blaze? 

 

"His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there,".....    why go to the time and effort to push the car over the embankment?

The main issue I have with the CPK using a boat as his choice of transportation in a few of the murders is that he would've had to park his boat at each place where the victims cars were found, then walk for miles along the parkway or road with this gas can in his hand to find his victims, then convince them to help him, then produce a gun, knife or rope and abduct them and make them drive to wherever he had parked his boat.  How long do we think it would take for someone to do all this and return to their boat and it still be there or not have been found by Rangers, LE or Naval patrols near the Cheatham Annex?  Remember Keith was driving from Newport University to drop off Sandra in Grafton, which is miles away from where his car was found on the Parkway.  Keith's car was found right next to a road that leads out to Navy ships being reloaded with ammunition, and no Navy guard or patrol saw a boat anchored there for possibly hours?

Also of note here is that any small engine boat runs on regular fuel, not diesel.  it would've had to been a much larger ship if it ran on diesel fuel, making it hard to have been hidden from being seen by any witness.

I'm not knocking the "boat theory", but the logistics of using a boat in these murders seems impractical?  IMHO.

Mustang:

Both inboard and outboard motors of boats have been using diesel fuel for decades. You can even buy old diesel boat engines on ebay.

[cleopatra]

Apr 25, 2019 8:13:54 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Apr 11, 2019 16:46:40 GMT mustangman said:

"for someone who's trying not to get caught".....   why pour the gas all over the car and on the bodies inside of it, unless you intended to light a blaze? 

 

"His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there,".....    why go to the time and effort to push the car over the embankment?

The main issue I have with the CPK using a boat as his choice of transportation in a few of the murders is that he would've had to park his boat at each place where the victims cars were found, then walk for miles along the parkway or road with this gas can in his hand to find his victims, then convince them to help him, then produce a gun, knife or rope and abduct them and make them drive to wherever he had parked his boat.  How long do we think it would take for someone to do all this and return to their boat and it still be there or not have been found by Rangers, LE or Naval patrols near the Cheatham Annex?  Remember Keith was driving from Newport University to drop off Sandra in Grafton, which is miles away from where his car was found on the Parkway.  Keith's car was found right next to a road that leads out to Navy ships being reloaded with ammunition, and no Navy guard or patrol saw a boat anchored there for possibly hours?

Also of note here is that any small engine boat runs on regular fuel, not diesel.  it would've had to been a much larger ship if it ran on diesel fuel, making it hard to have been hidden from being seen by any witness.

I'm not knocking the "boat theory", but the logistics of using a boat in these murders seems impractical?  IMHO.

Mustang:

Both inboard and outboard motors of boats have been using diesel fuel for decades. You can even buy old diesel boat engines on ebay.

"...then walk for miles along the parkway or road with this gas can in his hand to find his victims..." 

The FBI agents who were at the scene of Cathy's and Becky's crime (Mabry & Cross) believes the killer tried to push Cathy's car down the embankment first and when it got stuck in the bushes, he then attempted to burn it.

I suspect that when the car got stuck in bramble the killer went to his boat, which he lodged somewhere nearby earlier that day, grabbed the container of fuel that was sitting in it, poured it all over the car and tried to light it on fire.  Maybe the thought the canister contained gasoline, not diesel.  Or, maybe he knew it was diesel but didn't know diesel didn't ignite the way gas does.

Cathy and Becky weren't killed where the car was found.  After the CPK killed them at an unknown location, he loaded their bodies into the car, and drove it to where it was found.  I suspect he brought it to that location specifically because he had his getaway boat there. 

If he didn't use a boat, then I suspect he parked his car somewhere nearby earlier in the day, which he merely walked to when he left the crime scene.

I lean more toward a getaway boat.  Keith's car was parked at the turnabout by Bracken's Point.  There is also an overpass there where he could have lodged a boat earlier in the day.  However, dogs tracked Keith's and Sandra's scents from Bracken Point all the way to the Indian Field Creek.  When the dogs reached the overpass they crossed the Parkway, went under the bridge and wanted to enter the water.  The dogs were placed on boats and followed their target 70 yards into the York River.  

I read a lot about tracking dogs.  The dogs possibly could have been following the scents of Keith's and Sandra's body cells that came off the killer.  If the killer handled the victim's bodies, their cells would have transferred to him. If the killer sailed away on a boat, those cells would have been blown off him and landed on the surface of the water.  Waves would have carried the cells to the shore and when the waves rolled backwards, they'd have left the cells on the shore.  The dogs followed a trail on the shore, which could have been washed up cells.

I think that was more likely the case than that the killer made Sandra walk over a mile in a wide open space, from Bracken's Point all the way to Indian Field Creek.  

I suspect the killer used a getaway boat to leave the Cheatham Annex area, Bracken's Point and Ragged Island. 

[mustangman]

Apr 25, 2019 8:13:54 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Apr 11, 2019 16:46:40 GMT mustangman said:

"for someone who's trying not to get caught".....   why pour the gas all over the car and on the bodies inside of it, unless you intended to light a blaze? 

 

"His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there,".....    why go to the time and effort to push the car over the embankment?

The main issue I have with the CPK using a boat as his choice of transportation in a few of the murders is that he would've had to park his boat at each place where the victims cars were found, then walk for miles along the parkway or road with this gas can in his hand to find his victims, then convince them to help him, then produce a gun, knife or rope and abduct them and make them drive to wherever he had parked his boat.  How long do we think it would take for someone to do all this and return to their boat and it still be there or not have been found by Rangers, LE or Naval patrols near the Cheatham Annex?  Remember Keith was driving from Newport University to drop off Sandra in Grafton, which is miles away from where his car was found on the Parkway.  Keith's car was found right next to a road that leads out to Navy ships being reloaded with ammunition, and no Navy guard or patrol saw a boat anchored there for possibly hours?

Also of note here is that any small engine boat runs on regular fuel, not diesel.  it would've had to been a much larger ship if it ran on diesel fuel, making it hard to have been hidden from being seen by any witness.

I'm not knocking the "boat theory", but the logistics of using a boat in these murders seems impractical?  IMHO.

Mustang:

Both inboard and outboard motors of boats have been using diesel fuel for decades. You can even buy old diesel boat engines on ebay.

I was only talking about "small engine boats"  like small row boat or small fishing boat which don't run on diesel, anything larger would be very hard to conceal along the Parkway for very long without being noticed.

[spodey]

Some science re gasoline and diesel fuels "flash points" (sorry if a re-post):

"In a diesel-fueled engine, there is no ignition source (such as the spark plugs in a gasoline engine). Consequently, diesel fuel must have a high flash point and a low autoignition temperature.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2019 20:41:48 GMT spodey said:

Some science re gasoline and diesel fuels "flash points" (sorry if a re-post):

"In a diesel-fueled engine, there is no ignition source (such as the spark plugs in a gasoline engine). Consequently, diesel fuel must have a high flash point and a low autoignition temperature.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Guys. If you want some clarification about the diesel situation, Wonky is your guy. I think months ago I might have even talked to Cleo about it. I might have even sent her pictures of diesel cans.
Not sure. Can't remember.

I live in BFE and diesel is a part of my daily life. I feel like I should be the Proboards diesel consultant.

I almost want to make a post that says "CPK used diesel, ask me anything".

Edit: I burn brush piles with diesel almost daily. That's how we light brush fires in the boonies. All of my equipment runs on diesel. I understand most people in the city don't know about diesel fuel.

[cleopatra]

I suspect the CPK had a boat lodged nearby where he brought Cathy's white car, which was specifically the reason he brought it to where it was found. 

I suspect that after the CPK killed the girls he drove Cathy's car to where he left his boat earlier that day with the intention of pushing it into the water, then jumping into his boat and taking off.  I suspect that when the car got stuck in the brush, it completely blotched his end-plan.  The CPK then stood or sat there staring at the car, smoking cigarettes and thinking.  He then went to his boat and grabbed a canister of fuel from inside the boat, poured some of the fuel over the bodies, doused the entire car with the fuel, made a trail of it leading from the car to where he would stand, then lit a match and threw it down on the fuel.  When it didn't light, he did it again and again.  He may have lit some paper on fire and threw it inside the car.  He finally gave up.  He grabbed the empty canister, went to his boat, jumped in it and sailed away.  

The CPK most likely replayed that crime in his head many times, planning and preparing for his next attack.  In doing so, he decided not to try pushing the next car into the water.  He decided he wouldn't try to get rid of the car n try to hide it.  Instead, he'd leave it out in plain view, in a parking lot where it would get towed.  He knew the NPS towed vehicles parked on NP property that remained parked in the same spot for three days in a row.  He knew the owner of the car would be dead, so the car wouldn't be going anywhere for three days.   He knew a tow would contaminate evidence in the interior and exterior of the cars.

The victims' vehicles were considered abandoned after only being parked on NPS property for a few hours, not three days.   Keith Call's car was only parked at the Overlook for 4 hours.   Cars that will towed,  don't get towed in three days.  On the third day, the cars are first tagged with a  warning that the car will be towed in 48 hours if it is not moved.  WHY?  Why were the vehicles considered, "abandoned" after a mere 4 hours of being parked at the locations? 

[cleopatra]

Unless, the CPK had a motorcycle hidden out there.  Or a dirt-bike.  Or some other type of vehicle that could have been concealed nearby that would have a canister of fuel in it.  Do motorcycles carry canisters of gas or diesel?  

[griswold]

"His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there,"..... why go to the time and effort to push the car over the embankment?"

He moved his victim towards water in every attack. He HAD to.

[cleopatra]

Jun 26, 2019 23:50:45 GMT griswold said:

"His objective would clearly be to do the murdering, then get out of there,"..... why go to the time and effort to push the car over the embankment?"

He moved his victim towards water in every attack. He HAD to.

OCD?.....

Except that, he did douse the entire car and the bodies with fuel.......   he may have thought it was gasoline. 

[cleopatra]

Ending his crime scenes at the water.....

If it was due to cumpulsion or some other weird fettish, then the CPK wouldn't have brought the cars to the water to get to his boat. Instead, he could have just walked away or rode away on a bicycle that he left nearby the areas earlier the day of the attacks. 

He may have lived within walking distance of the Cathy-Becky and Keith-Sandra murders.  Just like he could have lived near the Julie-Lollie murders. 

I wonder where the nearest horse stables were to both those crimes back in 1986-1988...? that were within walking distance...and if there were any stanles nearby the New Kent Rest Stop in 1989? 

Could the CPK have been a horse stable worker? A lot of times, room and board is provided for such workers in both public and privately owned horse facilities.  

There was a horse stable right near where Taj was found, and Lollie and Julie were found right off a horse trail.  Taj was tied to a tree with a rope. That's how horses are left unattended in the woods - the horse  reins are not long enough to tie around something, so long ropes  are used to tie horses with, to trees.   

If the CPK did live and work at a horse stable, he could have gone to it, to fetch a canister of fuel.