Could the CPK be using a BOAT?

[englishman]

Oct 17, 2018 19:01:50 GMT mustangman said:

Oct 17, 2018 17:52:30 GMT englishman said:

I'm sure they would have flares, same with fisherman etc, perhaps it didn't cross his mind to use them or something disturbed him. I did think at one point he could be impatient because if he wanted to light the car on fire he could of, however if you look the murders CPK is being linked to and the dates it leads me believe his a patient person waits up the late hours and strikes around national holidays and weekends. 

Most of us are guilty of that tbh, I appreciate the comments on the Diesel fuel and it's an interesting way to look at what kind of people would have access to it in the 80's.

Yes I agree that most Police & Park Rangers have flares in their car, I was just wondering out loud, why didn't he use them?  I'm not convinced that CPK was a patient person.  Meaning I don't think he stalked his victims or pre-planned the murders.  It seems he happened upon the victims, who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and made his decision to kill them at that moment.  The most I see CPK doing what would be labeled as "patient" would be if he was lying in wait at the locations where he chose his victims.  I don't think he was patient, he saw an opportunity at the right time and sprung into action, maybe he accidentally grabbed the can of diesel fuel in his haste. 

The flare was just a thought I had about setting the car on fire, also it's an item which some of the jobs which we've listed would have available.

I think his patient because of how spaced out the attacks are and when they happened, his abided his time and waited for his opportunity. When you look at the area this happening in, all it takes is someone random to drive by and spot him or his car then a couple of days later they see a story in the news, in a crowded city more people can spot you but it's easier to blend in, you generally forget every soul you walk past or drive by as most people have a reason or purpose to be in a particular area.

[mustangman]

Oct 17, 2018 19:44:08 GMT englishman said:

Oct 17, 2018 19:01:50 GMT mustangman said:

Yes I agree that most Police & Park Rangers have flares in their car, I was just wondering out loud, why didn't he use them?  I'm not convinced that CPK was a patient person.  Meaning I don't think he stalked his victims or pre-planned the murders.  It seems he happened upon the victims, who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and made his decision to kill them at that moment.  The most I see CPK doing what would be labeled as "patient" would be if he was lying in wait at the locations where he chose his victims.  I don't think he was patient, he saw an opportunity at the right time and sprung into action, maybe he accidentally grabbed the can of diesel fuel in his haste. 

The flare was just a thought I had about setting the car on fire, also it's an item which some of the jobs which we've listed would have available.

I think his patient because of how spaced out the attacks are and when they happened, his abided his time and waited for his opportunity. When you look at the area this happening in, all it takes is someone random to drive by and spot him or his car then a couple of days later they see a story in the news, in a crowded city more people can spot you but it's easier to blend in, you generally forget every soul you walk past or drive by as most people have a reason or purpose to be in a particular area.

This whole thing about why use diesel fuel and trying to use matches to light the diesel fuel is very hard to nail down, I don't think we will ever know until the CPK is caught and begin to look into his past for the answer.  The use of diesel fuel & matches points to the CPK either being in a hurry or him being a novice at arson.

What I should have said in my previous post about CPK not being "patient" and why I thought that, I meant to say his crimes seem like "crimes of opportunity", waiting until holiday weekends or certain times of night isn't patient, its just when he had the opportunity to commit his crimes.

I agree that in a crowed city he could blend in more and go unnoticed, like seeing someone pulled over by LE on the street (even late at night), you don't give it much attention to it because you've seen it before.

[englishman]

Oct 17, 2018 21:53:44 GMT mustangman said:

Oct 17, 2018 19:44:08 GMT englishman said:

The flare was just a thought I had about setting the car on fire, also it's an item which some of the jobs which we've listed would have available.

I think his patient because of how spaced out the attacks are and when they happened, his abided his time and waited for his opportunity. When you look at the area this happening in, all it takes is someone random to drive by and spot him or his car then a couple of days later they see a story in the news, in a crowded city more people can spot you but it's easier to blend in, you generally forget every soul you walk past or drive by as most people have a reason or purpose to be in a particular area.

This whole thing about why use diesel fuel and trying to use matches to light the diesel fuel is very hard to nail down, I don't think we will ever know until the CPK is caught and begin to look into his past for the answer.  The use of diesel fuel & matches points to the CPK either being in a hurry or him being a novice at arson.

What I should have said in my previous post about CPK not being "patient" and why I thought that, I meant to say his crimes seem like "crimes of opportunity", waiting until holiday weekends or certain times of night isn't patient, its just when he had the opportunity to commit his crimes.

I agree that in a crowed city he could blend in more and go unnoticed, like seeing someone pulled over by LE on the street (even late at night), you don't give it much attention to it because you've seen it before.

It's ensuring he has the right conditions, I think this is a big factor for this guy. IMO If he was a more impatient character, we would have more attacks and incidents were he would of made mistakes, not saying that's the exact case as he could of quite easily killed lone people or couples in other areas in-between the Parkway murders, which we're all keeping an eye out for.

[trabuco]

Bill, do you know if Cathy's Honda was operational after it was pulled out of the brush? Would it start up and idle properly?

[trabuco]

Oct 17, 2018 22:59:02 GMT englishman said:

Oct 17, 2018 21:53:44 GMT mustangman said:

This whole thing about why use diesel fuel and trying to use matches to light the diesel fuel is very hard to nail down, I don't think we will ever know until the CPK is caught and begin to look into his past for the answer.  The use of diesel fuel & matches points to the CPK either being in a hurry or him being a novice at arson.

What I should have said in my previous post about CPK not being "patient" and why I thought that, I meant to say his crimes seem like "crimes of opportunity", waiting until holiday weekends or certain times of night isn't patient, its just when he had the opportunity to commit his crimes.

I agree that in a crowed city he could blend in more and go unnoticed, like seeing someone pulled over by LE on the street (even late at night), you don't give it much attention to it because you've seen it before.

It's ensuring he has the right conditions, I think this is a big factor for this guy. IMO If he was a more impatient character, we would have more attacks and incidents were he would of made mistakes, not saying that's the exact case as he could of quite easily killed lone people or couples in other areas in-between the Parkway murders, which we're all keeping an eye out for.

I think he thought it out very carefully. He goes about it with LE eyes. He can't help it. He is concerned about what investigators will find so he stages the scene. JMO.

The diesel fuel could also be his attempt to make it look like an amateur did it.

[cleopatra]

Oct 17, 2018 23:12:37 GMT trabuco said:

Oct 17, 2018 22:59:02 GMT englishman said:

It's ensuring he has the right conditions, I think this is a big factor for this guy. IMO If he was a more impatient character, we would have more attacks and incidents were he would of made mistakes, not saying that's the exact case as he could of quite easily killed lone people or couples in other areas in-between the Parkway murders, which we're all keeping an eye out for.

I think he thought it out very carefully. He goes about it with LE eyes. He can't help it. He is concerned about what investigators will find so he stages the scene. JMO.

The diesel fuel could also be his attempt to make it look like an amateur did it.

I believe the killer thought the fuel was gasoline.

He either stole it - grabbed it from a truck or boat and presumed it was gasoline,

or someone previously filled the container with diesel when it should have been filled with diesel,

or he was in a hurry and distracted so he filled the container with diesel when he actually meant to fill it with gasoline.

In any case, I'm sure he didn't know the fuel was not gasoline.

The matches found up on the hill may have been used to light his cigarettes because there were a bunch of cigarettes found where the lit matches lay.

[maxxcat2018]

Oct 17, 2018 23:36:12 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 17, 2018 23:12:37 GMT trabuco said:

I think he thought it out very carefully. He goes about it with LE eyes. He can't help it. He is concerned about what investigators will find so he stages the scene. JMO.

The diesel fuel could also be his attempt to make it look like an amateur did it.

I believe the killer thought the fuel was gasoline.

He either stole it - grabbed it from a truck or boat and presumed it was gasoline,

or someone previously filled the container with diesel when it should have been filled with diesel,

or he was in a hurry and distracted so he filled the container with diesel when he actually meant to fill it with gasoline.

In any case, I'm sure he didn't know the fuel was not gasoline.

The matches found up on the hill may have been used to light his cigarettes because there were a bunch of cigarettes found where the lit matches lay.

Would be hard to mistake diesel for gasoline really, both smell completely different.

[trabuco]

Oct 17, 2018 23:36:12 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 17, 2018 23:12:37 GMT trabuco said:

I think he thought it out very carefully. He goes about it with LE eyes. He can't help it. He is concerned about what investigators will find so he stages the scene. JMO.

The diesel fuel could also be his attempt to make it look like an amateur did it.

I believe the killer thought the fuel was gasoline.

He either stole it - grabbed it from a truck or boat and presumed it was gasoline,

or someone previously filled the container with diesel when it should have been filled with diesel,

or he was in a hurry and distracted so he filled the container with diesel when he actually meant to fill it with gasoline.

In any case, I'm sure he didn't know the fuel was not gasoline.

The matches found up on the hill may have been used to light his cigarettes because there were a bunch of cigarettes found where the lit matches lay.

It's okay to believe that or the opposite.

I was just kind of thinking out loud.

If he is a member of LE the investigators would have found what he wanted them to find and thought what he wanted them to think.

This killer has never been captured or identified and there is IMO a good reason for that.

He knows he has to distance himself from his knowledge while committing the crimes and staging the scene. This is just my opinion. If he is still alive I hope he is reading this.

But he won't think of everything. JMO.

[(AQ)]

Oct 17, 2018 22:42:02 GMT @wonky said:

Oct 15, 2018 6:16:08 GMT billthom56 said:

Bob:

The experts tell me that they should have used a newspaper torch to set the Honda on fire. Have to raise the temperature of the diesel to get it to ignite.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

I agree it would have been easier that way. I am an expert on lighting diesel believe it or not. We have big ranches and light brush piles almost daily. We always use diesel. Not gas. Gas will get the job done, but will take your eyebrows off. Diesel is harder to light but wont hurt the person igniting it.

I know you guys had a whole diesel thread a month or 2 ago that I commented on. But everyone seems to be talking about it here.

One other thing I want to add. Some here seem to keep saying that diesel is used in boats regularly. I disagree. I grew up between 2 lakes. I probably spent more time in a boat fishing and duck hunting than I spent on land. Not many boats use diesel as fuel.

Wonky Bob- Wondering if you know/ have experience with this aspect:

I had a hunter tell me he always carries 10 gallons or more of diesel when he goes out hunting. I assumed he was talking present day tho, we were discussing part of this case.
Back in the 80's was diesel common enough that hunters would consider it a staple item?     - thanks, aq
------

[billthom56]

Oct 15, 2018 18:16:10 GMT englishman said:

Oct 15, 2018 5:25:51 GMT billthom56 said:

English:

Yet FBI tells me that matches and cigarettes were found at the scene, and they believed that the offender tried to set the Honda Civic alight with matches and diesel fuel.

Thanks.

Bill

Did either Cathy or Becky smoke? 

English:

No, never. Both Cathy and Becky were big time athletes, very healthy.  Cigarettes and a large number of matches were found on scene.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

[billthom56]

Oct 16, 2018 17:27:15 GMT trabuco said:

Oct 16, 2018 13:43:05 GMT hoth said:

If this is true then that brings up some questions. From what I’ve read, there was diesel poured inside the car. So that would mean that the killer was able to get inside the car after it was in the brush. If that’s the case, why was it so hard for the rangers to get into the car such that they had to break the back window? Who were the first rangers to get to the car and who broke the window?

I've got a feeling window was broke by someone trying to push it with another vehicle. It's just my speculation.

Does anyone know just how much the window was broke? Was the entire window broke out and all glass gone from the opening or was the window broken just to get a view inside the vehicle? Was the hatchback made completely of glass? Was the front driver's door open when car was found? Maybe the breaking of the hatchback window was done to destroy evidence? But what kind of evidence could that be?

Trabuco:

The glass on the Honda Civic's hatchback was broken by the first NPS ranger on scene when he was not able to open the car doors due to the downward angle and the brush. The nose of the Honda was close to the water, which appeared to be a final attempt tp hide the car and bodies inside. According to reports. he could see the women inside the car and broke the rear window in an attempt to rescue them.

Thanks,

Bill Thomas

[(AQ)]

Oct 16, 2018 17:52:36 GMT trabuco said:

One lagging question that keeps coming back to me is why did the killer only attack in this area during the Fall of the year? September and October? Of course Call and Hailey went missing in April but the perpetrator's M/O is similar to that in attack 2 and 4. The killer may have had many reasons for attacking in September and October which perhaps he only knows but in my opinion his number one reason was because that is when he thought he had the best chance of getting away with it.

I wonder if there is any correlation between September + October + Diesel fuel?

The only correlation I know of is that here in the farming district they use diesel to burn weeds from around the irrigation ditches, and early fall, late spring is when that happens.

I've been wondering if they selected diesel a) bc they knew it was safer than gasoline (see wonky bob's post, up a few posts); b) it burns hotter and hence they figured it would leave less trace evidence c)  diesel seems to burn bright flames for a bit, then down to smoke yet continues to smolder.

I don't think they were worried about being seen. I think the expected they would be gone before anyone could find exactly where the flames were coming from.   Another thought is, they wanted the sites to be found, hence the staging of the cars, when they could not lite it afire.   Also, it seems they might be more concerned about hiding the bodies, and/or what was done to them, than anything re the cars which led them to trying to get them into the water.

[billthom56]

Oct 17, 2018 3:27:56 GMT trabuco said:

Oct 17, 2018 2:36:14 GMT mustangman said:

I recall reading on this site that the back window was broken by one of the first Police officer's on the scene because he saw people in the car and was just trying to save lives, he didn't know they were already dead.  since it was too hard to enter the car from the side doors due to the heavy brush, the officer broke out the back window. 

Yes, the official story is LE broke the window. But doing so could have destroyed evidence.  I was just thinking about the Call / Hailey case in which we probably would not have ever known the truth if Keith Call's Dad had not seen his son's car that morning and stopped to look inside of it. Dad didn't see any clothes in Keith's car. When LE found out what Dad saw they came out and said they had taken the clothes and brought them back. But doing so could have destroyed evidence. In the Knobling / Edwards case it is agreed upon by all that the killer brought their clothes back and placed them in Knobling's truck. In the Call / Hailey case LE admits they brought their clothes back and placed them in Call's car. When LE is doing the same thing the killer is doing it makes me suspect more than ever someone in LE is the killer.

Trabuco:

I strongly disagree that there is a consensus of opinion by investigators that that clothing was brought back to the truck in the Edwards/Knobling killing.  They could have been engaged in making out, or forced to disrobe right there at the Ford truck in the parking lot.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

[billthom56]

Oct 17, 2018 13:24:50 GMT mustangman said:

Oct 17, 2018 13:09:50 GMT (AQ) said:

And what evidence is there that the car was attempted to be lit when down in the brush, near the river?   (Whereas, at the top of the embankment, they had numerous matches & some cigarettes)

AQ, below is a quote from Cleo stating that the car was pushed into the brush then tried to be set on fire.  I think this is where the confusion begins.

__________________________________________________________________________

Cleo stated in an earlier post in this thread:  "I was looking through my old notes. As it turns out, many original notes in the police files indicated that Cathy's car was FIRST pushed, in attempt apparently to roll it down into the river. THEN, it got stopped in a brush. That may have been the point the killer began to unwind, when something he rehearsed doing failed. The reports then went on to say that it appeared that the killer NEXT RESORTED to an attempt to burn the car, which as we know also failed.

That is what I got from a report or excerpt of what was written by FBI Special Agent Robert W. Meadows, who worked tirelessly on the CPM cases. He was one of the first LE to believe the four murders were linked to one killer. According to Agent Meadows, from the reports he inherited and his own analysis of the crime scene, the car was pushed first, then attempted to be lit on fire."
__________________________________________________________________________

I've always read that the CPK tried to light the car on fire first then pushed it down the embankment.  Now I'm confused.  Can we get clarification on this?? 

thanks

Cleo and All:

FBI and VSP investigators have walked me through this on more than occasion.  They believe the attempt to set my sister Cathy's Honda Civic was on the flat grassy area, and the attempt to push the car into the river probably came last.  I have discussed this with experts for hours, read every article I knew about, have seen the crime scene photos, and have been to the crime scene numerous times. (If I sound exasperated. I am.)

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

[billthom56]

Oct 17, 2018 23:03:17 GMT trabuco said:

Bill, do you know if Cathy's Honda was operational after it was pulled out of the brush? Would it start up and idle properly?

Trabuco:

I am not sure.  I don't think it ever came up; if I had to offer an educated guess, I would say yes.

The Honda was moved by flatbed, samples taken from inside, and later sold for scrap. I wish the FBI still had it.

Thanks.

Bill