Possible Victims: McBane-Mann, 1971 Valentine's Day Murders

[vrextar]

So I was looking into cold cases involving the murders of young couples and came across this couple from the Durham, NC area (about a 3-4 hour drive from the known CPM areas). These probably aren't connected to CPK, but there are some similarities worth noting.

According to various news websites, including The News of Orange County, this crime was the murders of Jesse Allen McBane and Patricia Ann Mann who were 19 and 20 respectively. It happened around Valentine's Day in 1971, hence the name, Valentine's Day Murders. McBane was enrolled at NC State while Mann was attending nursing school at Watts Hospital.

According to another article, their car was found on Wayside Place. The victims were found off Howe Street. The streets appear to be around 4 miles apart, though I'm not sure of the exact locations of the car and the victims.

LE has a POI, who was a doctor at Watts Hospital during the time of the murders. But he has refused to cooperate.

Again, this is probably not connected to CPK, but there sure are a lot of similarities as seen in the list below.

• Ages, both victims in the 18-21 age range
• Male/Female couple
• Both college students
• Thought to have been abducted
• Cold & rainy weather - According to TNOOC from above, "It was a cold night in central North Carolina, with misty rain falling throughout much of the evening."
• Couple went to a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Vehicle found in a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Clothing (coats) found in vehicle
• Victims moved to a different location
• Both were bound (like Cathy & Becky)
• No signs of sexual assault
• Thought to have been strangled & possibly stabbed (like Cathy & Becky)
• Late at night (after 11:30 PM)
• Found in a wooded area, water may have been within the same area
• Found near/in a State Park (not a National Park, but close)
• Bodies covered (with leaves here, but with a blanket for Daniel & Annamaria)
• Potential jurisdictional issues (near the county line)

[cleopatra]

Mar 14, 2019 3:55:59 GMT vrextar said:

So I was looking into cold cases involving the murders of young couples and came across this couple from the Durham, NC area (about a 3-4 hour drive from the known CPM areas). These probably aren't connected to CPK, but there are some similarities worth noting.

According to various news websites, including The News of Orange County, this crime was the murders of Jesse Allen McBane and Patricia Ann Mann who were 19 and 20 respectively. It happened around Valentine's Day in 1971, hence the name, Valentine's Day Murders. McBane was enrolled at NC State while Mann was attending nursing school at Watts Hospital.

According to another article, their car was found on Wayside Place. The victims were found off Howe Street. The streets appear to be around 4 miles apart, though I'm not sure of the exact locations of the car and the victims.

LE has a POI, who was a doctor at Watts Hospital during the time of the murders. But he has refused to cooperate.

Again, this is probably not connected to CPK, but there sure are a lot of similarities as seen in the list below.

• Ages, both victims in the 18-21 age range
• Male/Female couple
• Both college students
• Thought to have been abducted
• Cold & rainy weather - According to TNOOC from above, "It was a cold night in central North Carolina, with misty rain falling throughout much of the evening."
• Couple went to a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Vehicle found in a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Clothing (coats) found in vehicle
• Victims moved to a different location
• Both were bound (like Cathy & Becky)
• No signs of sexual assault
• Thought to have been strangled & possibly stabbed (like Cathy & Becky)
• Late at night (after 11:30 PM)
• Found in a wooded area, water may have been within the same area
• Found near/in a State Park (not a National Park, but close)
• Bodies covered (with leaves here, but with a blanket for Daniel & Annamaria)
• Potential jurisdictional issues (near the county line)

I'm familiar with this case.

I think in this case the sicko killer tortured the victims by choking them wirh a rope unil they  passed out.  Then  when they regained conciousness he choked them again until they passed out again, and kept doing that.. However, they did not die of strangulation.  They died of stabbings.  If I recall correctly, the killer used hemp rope. The rope that was used with Cathy and Becky had sea salt on it 

I think I have the autopy reports of these victim's.  I'll dig through my stuff and if I do, I'll post them.  

[vrextar]

Mar 14, 2019 5:49:31 GMT cleopatra said:

Mar 14, 2019 3:55:59 GMT vrextar said:

So I was looking into cold cases involving the murders of young couples and came across this couple from the Durham, NC area (about a 3-4 hour drive from the known CPM areas). These probably aren't connected to CPK, but there are some similarities worth noting.

According to various news websites, including The News of Orange County, this crime was the murders of Jesse Allen McBane and Patricia Ann Mann who were 19 and 20 respectively. It happened around Valentine's Day in 1971, hence the name, Valentine's Day Murders. McBane was enrolled at NC State while Mann was attending nursing school at Watts Hospital.

According to another article, their car was found on Wayside Place. The victims were found off Howe Street. The streets appear to be around 4 miles apart, though I'm not sure of the exact locations of the car and the victims.

LE has a POI, who was a doctor at Watts Hospital during the time of the murders. But he has refused to cooperate.

Again, this is probably not connected to CPK, but there sure are a lot of similarities as seen in the list below.

• Ages, both victims in the 18-21 age range
• Male/Female couple
• Both college students
• Thought to have been abducted
• Cold & rainy weather - According to TNOOC from above, "It was a cold night in central North Carolina, with misty rain falling throughout much of the evening."
• Couple went to a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Vehicle found in a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Clothing (coats) found in vehicle
• Victims moved to a different location
• Both were bound (like Cathy & Becky)
• No signs of sexual assault
• Thought to have been strangled & possibly stabbed (like Cathy & Becky)
• Late at night (after 11:30 PM)
• Found in a wooded area, water may have been within the same area
• Found near/in a State Park (not a National Park, but close)
• Bodies covered (with leaves here, but with a blanket for Daniel & Annamaria)
• Potential jurisdictional issues (near the county line)

I'm familiar with this case.

I think in this case the sicko killer tortured the victims by choking them wirh a rope unil they  passed out.  Then  when they regained conciousness he choked them again until they passed out again, and kept repeating doing that. But they died of stabbings.  If I recall correctly, the killer used hemp rope, the same type of rope that was used with Cathy and Becky. 

I think I have the autopy reports of these victim's.  I'll dig through my stuff and if I do, I'll post them.  

Yeah a couple of the articles I read mentioned that they may been tortured before being killed. The killer was definitely a sicko for sure. One article mentioned that crime scene photos were too gruesome to share. Could they have been over killed (which also happened with Cathy & Becky for example)?

Also the male victim, Jesse, was considered to be good-looking and tall from what I've read, which can also be said about known and unconfirmed CPK victims I believe. Additionally, this happened around a holiday, like other CPK victims (hough not a legal holiday). But considering it happened around Valentine's Day, it seems like it'd be more likely to be someone who had a problem with love/couples or these victims specifically. Perhaps rejected by one or both of them?

[mustangman]

Mar 14, 2019 5:49:31 GMT cleopatra said:

Mar 14, 2019 3:55:59 GMT vrextar said:

So I was looking into cold cases involving the murders of young couples and came across this couple from the Durham, NC area (about a 3-4 hour drive from the known CPM areas). These probably aren't connected to CPK, but there are some similarities worth noting.

According to various news websites, including The News of Orange County, this crime was the murders of Jesse Allen McBane and Patricia Ann Mann who were 19 and 20 respectively. It happened around Valentine's Day in 1971, hence the name, Valentine's Day Murders. McBane was enrolled at NC State while Mann was attending nursing school at Watts Hospital.

According to another article, their car was found on Wayside Place. The victims were found off Howe Street. The streets appear to be around 4 miles apart, though I'm not sure of the exact locations of the car and the victims.

LE has a POI, who was a doctor at Watts Hospital during the time of the murders. But he has refused to cooperate.

Again, this is probably not connected to CPK, but there sure are a lot of similarities as seen in the list below.

• Ages, both victims in the 18-21 age range
• Male/Female couple
• Both college students
• Thought to have been abducted
• Cold & rainy weather - According to TNOOC from above, "It was a cold night in central North Carolina, with misty rain falling throughout much of the evening."
• Couple went to a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Vehicle found in a lover's lane/parking/make out location
• Clothing (coats) found in vehicle
• Victims moved to a different location
• Both were bound (like Cathy & Becky)
• No signs of sexual assault
• Thought to have been strangled & possibly stabbed (like Cathy & Becky)
• Late at night (after 11:30 PM)
• Found in a wooded area, water may have been within the same area
• Found near/in a State Park (not a National Park, but close)
• Bodies covered (with leaves here, but with a blanket for Daniel & Annamaria)
• Potential jurisdictional issues (near the county line)

I'm familiar with this case.

I think in this case the sicko killer tortured the victims by choking them wirh a rope unil they  passed out.  Then  when they regained conciousness he choked them again until they passed out again, and kept repeating doing that. But they died of stabbings.  If I recall correctly, the killer used hemp rope, the same type of rope that was used with Cathy and Becky. 

I think I have the autopy reports of these victim's.  I'll dig through my stuff and if I do, I'll post them.  

Cleo, where did we get the info about the rope used to tie up Cathy & Becky was "Hemp rope"?   I've always thought it was white "cord" rope, like the type that could've been used to "tie up a boat" or a clothes line, but never read that it was hemp rope.    thanks

[cleopatra]

Mar 14, 2019 12:12:33 GMT mustangman said:

Mar 14, 2019 5:49:31 GMT cleopatra said:

I'm familiar with this case.

I think in this case the sicko killer tortured the victims by choking them wirh a rope unil they  passed out.  Then  when they regained conciousness he choked them again until they passed out again, and kept repeating doing that. But they died of stabbings.  If I recall correctly, the killer used hemp rope, the same type of rope that was used with Cathy and Becky. 

Cleo, where did we get the info about the rope used to tie up Cathy & Becky was "Hemp rope"?   I've always thought it was white "cord" rope, like the type that could've been used to "tie up a boat" or a clothes line, but never read that it was hemp rope.    thanks

I don't recall where exactly as it's been so long since I first found out.  At the time I did come accross that info, I researched hemp rope. It is commonly used on boats because it withstands water well.  It may have been the reason the FBI suspected the killer was a waterman.

With the Valentine's murder, if I recall right, I saw it in the autopsy report.  I am going to look for the autopsy report.

[cleopatra]

Here is one autopsy report.   still looking for the other one....

i.ibb.co/tBnf9w5/20190314-060927.png
i.ibb.co/ck0yX7F/20190314-060942.png
i.ibb.co/Xkgz86c/20190314-061000.png
i.ibb.co/sJQpkZm/20190314-061013.png
i.ibb.co/5rRXHCM/20190314-061028.png
i.ibb.co/Tq5qYdd/20190314-061041.png
i.ibb.co/37N4tC5/20190314-061058.png

[cleopatra]

The couple was murdered on a 3 day legal holiday weekend even though they went to a Valentine's Dance.  President's Day weekend. 

[(AQ)]

There are a number of similarities but it seemed they were pretty certain it was the ex who committed the murders, or so I thought.

[cleopatra]

Mar 14, 2019 14:13:49 GMT (AQ) said:

There are a number of similarities but it seemed they were pretty certain it was the ex who committed the murders, or so I thought.

I didn't know that. Whose ex? the male's or female's ex?

[mustangman]

Mar 14, 2019 12:55:23 GMT cleopatra said:

Mar 14, 2019 12:12:33 GMT mustangman said:

Cleo, where did we get the info about the rope used to tie up Cathy & Becky was "Hemp rope"?   I've always thought it was white "cord" rope, like the type that could've been used to "tie up a boat" or a clothes line, but never read that it was hemp rope.    thanks

I don't recall where exactly as it's been so long since I first found out.  At the time I did come accross that info, I researched hemp rope. It is commonly used on boats because it withstands water well.  It may have been the reason the FBI suspected the killer was a waterman.

With the Valentine's murder, if I recall right, I saw it in the autopsy report.  I am going to look for the autopsy report.

Most hemp rope is thick and doesn't bend easily in a tight radius around someone's neck, especially twice, which is what the police theorized had been done with Cathy.

Can anyone who definitely knows the material of the rope used at the Thomas/Dowski crime scene, please let us know.   thanks 

  

[cleopatra]

Mar 14, 2019 15:33:50 GMT mustangman said:

Mar 14, 2019 12:55:23 GMT cleopatra said:

I don't recall where exactly as it's been so long since I first found out.  At the time I did come accross that info, I researched hemp rope. It is commonly used on boats because it withstands water well.  It may have been the reason the FBI suspected the killer was a waterman.

With the Valentine's murder, if I recall right, I saw it in the autopsy report.  I am going to look for the autopsy report.

Most hemp rope is thick and doesn't bend easily in a tight radius around someone's neck, especially twice, which is what the police theorized had been done with Cathy.

Can anyone who definitely knows the material of the rope used at the Thomas/Dowski crime scene, please let us know.   thanks 

  

I  may have been wrong because I found this article wher it says the rope was a thin nylon rope. I don't know where I saw the hemp but I'll keep checking.  

[vrextar]

Yeah I doubt CPK was involved here, just odd/interesting how many similarities there were. And re: President's Day, I didn't realize that but upon further research it does appear that was the case as Valentine's Day was right before President's Day in 1971. That was on Monday February 15th, while the dance and possibly the murders was on Friday February 12th, or maybe the 13th for the murders if they were killed after 12:00 AM.

[(AQ)]

Mar 14, 2019 15:00:51 GMT cleopatra said:

Mar 14, 2019 14:13:49 GMT (AQ) said:

There are a number of similarities but it seemed they were pretty certain it was the ex who committed the murders, or so I thought.

I didn't know that. Whose ex? the male's or female's ex?

Cleo,

Thanks for getting me to double check.  I am wrong, it wasn't an ex of Mann's but rather a Doctor at the hospital that she was working (interning) at that had been a primary suspect for years.
Some new podcasts seem to offer new info, not sure if they are still looking at the Dr., haven't listened to the podcast

thelongdancepodcast.com/

[tosh]

The Long Dance podcast on this is excellent - probably one of the best true crime podcasts I have listened to that focuses on one case.
They mentioned in the podcast that a year after the murders there had been an attempted abduction of another couple in a lover’s lane in the area but there was never much info on it. Following the podcast investigators managed to interview the survivors. I found their testimony interesting in light of how one person can manage to abduct a couple at a lover’s lane. Apparently a sketch drawn at the time based on witness descriptions bears a resemblance to the main suspect in the 1971 murders.

The Raleigh News and Observer, 27th July 2018.
[]
Pruitt said the description of the abduction is like finally knowing what might have happened to Mann and McBane. “We’re probably actually getting the story of what happened to Pat and Jesse, but told through these two other people,” he said.

The couple recounted to Horne, he said, how they’d stopped at a “lover’s pull off” at the intersection of N.C. 751 and Kerley Road in Durham when a man tapped on their window with a gun. “It’s like a horror movie really.

The kid jumped over the backseat to try and crank the car,” Horne said. “And the car knocks off.” The engine wouldn’t crank. With the woman still in the backseat, the abductor sat in the front passenger seat directing the young man to drive at gunpoint.

They took a right on Erwin Road, crossed into Orange County and again parked on what today is named Sunrise Road, Horne said. The armed man told the male abductee to get in the trunk but he refused to leave the young woman alone with their abductor. Allegedly, the abductor struck the young man repeatedly in the head with a pistol butt until the force of his blows knocked the gun from his grasp, Horne said.

The abductor drove away and abandoned the car in Durham County.

[tosh]

Mar 14, 2019 15:33:50 GMT mustangman said:

Mar 14, 2019 12:55:23 GMT cleopatra said:

I don't recall where exactly as it's been so long since I first found out.  At the time I did come accross that info, I researched hemp rope. It is commonly used on boats because it withstands water well.  It may have been the reason the FBI suspected the killer was a waterman.

With the Valentine's murder, if I recall right, I saw it in the autopsy report.  I am going to look for the autopsy report.

Most hemp rope is thick and doesn't bend easily in a tight radius around someone's neck, especially twice, which is what the police theorized had been done with Cathy.

Can anyone who definitely knows the material of the rope used at the Thomas/Dowski crime scene, please let us know.   thanks 

  

This is a picture of the rope used in the 1971 murders - it was tested again in 2018 but unfortunately the machine wasn’t able to retrieve enough DNA for testing. The hemp rope is much thicker and cumbersome than I had imagined.