Framed by the Golden State Killer?

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Oct 21, 2019 1:55:58 GMT steelbike said:

The way the DA said that one would be saying that the two young women were lying if one were to doubt their identifications of Oscar being their harasser that day was creepy.

I've got to say that I don't think it was creepy at all.  I have been wrestling with trying to decide if I think Oscar was framed or if he was guilty for years.  The 12-26-75 podcasters make a really good case for Oscar being innocent and framed BUT the two girl witnesses are a big obstacle for me.  

Did Sgt. Byrd coerce Oscar's daughter's boyfriend, Rick Carter to change the time Oscar got home? I kind of think he did.  I believe Oscar's daughter when she said she heard him say (I'll paraphrase) You got away with it last time but we've got you this time. 

I don't  feel that Sgt. Byrd was was some evil person out to get Oscar on some personal vendetta but I'm thinking that he was absolutely convinced Oscar was guilty.  Sgt. Byrd knew Donna since she was a baby and made a heartbreaking comment that he was worried she was cold while they were searching for her on that frigid December night.  Oscar got away with a slap on the wrist 10 years before when he attempted to rape 18 year old Connie G. at the St. John's river.  That same day he went to knocked on a farmhouse door and told the housewife that he wanted to have sex with her.  She slammed the door in his face.

His receipt book was found by the bicycle and Gloria Moscorro, the grove worker and Beth Brumley said Oscar was out in the area driving around saying pornographic things to Beth and flashing himself to Gloria who was right around the corner from where Donna's bike was found and about the same time she was abducted. That is quite a coincidence and if true then it is damming.   

I go back and forth on thinking DeAngelo framed Oscar by putting the receipt book by the bike BUT....my stumbling blocks are those two girl witnesses.  Even if DeAngelo got a white truck and put on a blond wig, he would not have passed as Oscar.  It's thought that Sgt Byrd showed Gloria Moscorro a picture of Oscar  (he's showing her something, but nobody really can say what, it's just speculation that it was a picture of Oscar. If I were a betting woman, I would bet it was, BUT even if DeAngelo put on a blond wig I don't think it would fool the girls.  Why would the girls testify in court in a murder trial that it was Oscar. 

So really for me I'd believe Oscar was innocent and was framed except for those two girl witnesses.  

By the way, why has the blond haired boy, Johnny Grueber, and Brent Trueblood not been interviewed by the podcasters?  I wonder what they have to say?  .  They were also supposed to be exculpatory witnesses but Oscar's lawyer didn't call them.  Are they exculpatory witnesses or not?

[claanders]

Wasn't JJD recently eliminated by LE through DNA testing for this crime?

[johnnyhands1]

Nov 2, 2019 0:56:47 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Oct 21, 2019 1:55:58 GMT steelbike said:

The way the DA said that one would be saying that the two young women were lying if one were to doubt their identifications of Oscar being their harasser that day was creepy.

I've got to say that I don't think it was creepy at all.  I have been wrestling with trying to decide if I think Oscar was framed or if he was guilty for years.  The 12-26-75 podcasters make a really good case for Oscar being innocent and framed BUT the two girl witnesses are a big obstacle for me.  

Did Sgt. Byrd coerce Oscar's daughter's boyfriend, Rick Carter to change the time Oscar got home? I kind of think he did.  I believe Oscar's daughter when she said she heard him say (I'll paraphrase) You got away with it last time but we've got you this time. 

I don't  feel that Sgt. Byrd was was some evil person out to get Oscar on some personal vendetta but I'm thinking that he was absolutely convinced Oscar was guilty.  Sgt. Byrd knew Donna since she was a baby and made a heartbreaking comment that he was worried she was cold while they were searching for her on that frigid December night.  Oscar got away with a slap on the wrist 10 years before when he attempted to rape 18 year old Connie G. at the St. John's river.  That same day he went to knocked on a farmhouse door and told the housewife that he wanted to have sex with her.  She slammed the door in his face.

His receipt book was found by the bicycle and Gloria Moscorro, the grove worker and Beth Brumley said Oscar was out in the area driving around saying pornographic things to Beth and flashing himself to Gloria who was right around the corner from where Donna's bike was found and about the same time she was abducted. That is quite a coincidence and if true then it is damming.   

I go back and forth on thinking DeAngelo framed Oscar by putting the receipt book by the bike BUT....my stumbling blocks are those two girl witnesses.  Even if DeAngelo got a white truck and put on a blond wig, he would not have passed as Oscar.  It's thought that Sgt Byrd showed Gloria Moscorro a picture of Oscar  (he's showing her something, but nobody really can say what, it's just speculation that it was a picture of Oscar. If I were a betting woman, I would bet it was, BUT even if DeAngelo put on a blond wig I don't think it would fool the girls.  Why would the girls testify in court in a murder trial that it was Oscar. 

So really for me I'd believe Oscar was innocent and was framed except for those two girl witnesses.  

By the way, why has the blond haired boy, Johnny Grueber, and Brent Trueblood not been interviewed by the podcasters?  I wonder what they have to say?  .  They were also supposed to be exculpatory witnesses but Oscar's lawyer didn't call them.  Are they exculpatory witnesses or not?

Does anyone know why the TSCO Oscar Clifton lineup photo has all the suspects wearing sunglasses.  Did the suspect for Beth Brumley and/or Gloria Moscorro have sunglasses on?

[almagata]

Nov 2, 2019 1:20:52 GMT claanders said:

Wasn't JJD recently eliminated by LE through DNA testing for this crime?

12-26-75 explains why the Tulare County Sheriff's office could not have cleared JJD via DNA in one of their pod cast episodes. 

There were some slides that Det Byrd did not realize were in the court safe so they escaped his illegal evidence destruction order. 

Those slides were discovered and evaluated for DNA during Clifton's appeal filed by the Innocence Project.  The state DNA examiner did not find any semen on the slides and wrote a report stating they did not have any genetic material to test.  There were other problems with the slides that included contamination since they were not handled like we would handle a DNA sample for evidence today.  

The Tulare County DA based their clearance of JJD on these slides and no one who has followed the two cases can understand how they reached this conclusion based on the prior assessment of the slides.  If there was no DNA to clear or confirm Clifton's guilt or innocence there was no DNA to clear or confirm JJD's guilt or innocence. 

[pod]

Claanders,

I think this is the 12-26-75 episode. As almagata says, the DNA "evidence" is a mess.

shows.pippa.io/5b0b51d35d2f788725c01ea7/episodes/ep-25-a-wrongful-exoneration

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2019 0:56:47 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Oct 21, 2019 1:55:58 GMT steelbike said:

The way the DA said that one would be saying that the two young women were lying if one were to doubt their identifications of Oscar being their harasser that day was creepy.

I've got to say that I don't think it was creepy at all.  I have been wrestling with trying to decide if I think Oscar was framed or if he was guilty for years.  The 12-26-75 podcasters make a really good case for Oscar being innocent and framed BUT the two girl witnesses are a big obstacle for me.  

Did Sgt. Byrd coerce Oscar's daughter's boyfriend, Rick Carter to change the time Oscar got home? I kind of think he did.  I believe Oscar's daughter when she said she heard him say (I'll paraphrase) You got away with it last time but we've got you this time. 

I don't  feel that Sgt. Byrd was was some evil person out to get Oscar on some personal vendetta but I'm thinking that he was absolutely convinced Oscar was guilty.  Sgt. Byrd knew Donna since she was a baby and made a heartbreaking comment that he was worried she was cold while they were searching for her on that frigid December night.  Oscar got away with a slap on the wrist 10 years before when he attempted to rape 18 year old Connie G. at the St. John's river.  That same day he went to knocked on a farmhouse door and told the housewife that he wanted to have sex with her.  She slammed the door in his face.

His receipt book was found by the bicycle and Gloria Moscorro, the grove worker and Beth Brumley said Oscar was out in the area driving around saying pornographic things to Beth and flashing himself to Gloria who was right around the corner from where Donna's bike was found and about the same time she was abducted. That is quite a coincidence and if true then it is damming.   

I go back and forth on thinking DeAngelo framed Oscar by putting the receipt book by the bike BUT....my stumbling blocks are those two girl witnesses.  Even if DeAngelo got a white truck and put on a blond wig, he would not have passed as Oscar.  It's thought that Sgt Byrd showed Gloria Moscorro a picture of Oscar  (he's showing her something, but nobody really can say what, it's just speculation that it was a picture of Oscar. If I were a betting woman, I would bet it was, BUT even if DeAngelo put on a blond wig I don't think it would fool the girls.  Why would the girls testify in court in a murder trial that it was Oscar. 

So really for me I'd believe Oscar was innocent and was framed except for those two girl witnesses.  

By the way, why has the blond haired boy, Johnny Grueber, and Brent Trueblood not been interviewed by the podcasters?  I wonder what they have to say?  .  They were also supposed to be exculpatory witnesses but Oscar's lawyer didn't call them.  Are they exculpatory witnesses or not?

I do regret stating what I stated in that post the way that I did. What I had really meant was that the only two options were not that the young women were telling the truth or that they were lying, they could have been mistaken. Both saw him very briefly in surprising and shocking circumstances (edit: while he was wearing big a**, super dark sunglasses?). If the LE had wanted them to ID photos of Oscar then it would have been possible to influence them feel as though it was Oscar Clifton that they had seen that day— that they were lying was not the only possibility and being a sober intelligent adult, the DA knows that. It felt to me that he was attempting to bully the interviewer.

The EAR did things thoroughly, if he was going to frame someone than he would have obsessively planned the entire production. Just as we know the details of OC’s 1965 conviction so would he have. The wild imagination that I possess has over the last year had me wondering if the VR hadn’t had an accomplice for VR crimes including, perhaps, this one.

I don’t know what happened. I don’t see much evidence against either JJD or OC. If Clifton committed thi horrible crime where were the blood, the weapon or the wounds that that strong young woman would likely have inflicted? The invoice book, for me, is more evidence pointing to JJD than to Clifton. The way that Donna Richmond’s things were scattered along the way towards Clifton’s house does seem staged to me. I don’t think the underwear would have been thrown from a moving truck into the ditch. I think that it would have required pulling over and placing them there — why not put everything there? Why were her shoes placed on their soles in the mud five miles apart? The EAR seems to have a shoe fetish.

It seems to me that two contradictory things were going on, OC was running blindly along out of his mind throwing evidence of his crime all over the place and then suddenly calm enough to get rid of weapons and every trace of blood and his having been freaked out— all in a very short period of time.

[kg]

There is plentiful evidence that Clifton was framed and there is no reason not to consider that more than one person may have been involved in the framing. There were a lot of tasks associated with that job and that other individual may have resembled Clifton better than Deangelo. Also, the 1966 incident was alleged, not proven. That perpetrator wore a mask. We need a mask wearing offender, who could better resemble Clifton than Deangelo, and who had a history of approaching women saying they were there to have sex.

[kg]

A ski mask wearing man watching a sunbather at the lake. How do we even know this was Oscar Clifton? The truth is we don't. The year is 1966.

Somewhere in between in Riverside Cheri Jo Bates is murdered in December of 1966.

Lake Berryessa, a man is watching girls sunbathing. The year is 1969. A more evolved disguise is used by the murderer of Hartnell and Shepherd.

Both incidents occur in broad daylight.

An offender who comes to a scene in broad daylight and attempts rape or murder is a bold individual. An offender who enters residences and announces he is there to have sex is crazy. Clifton is not crazy. Deangelo is not crazy. We need crazy here. We need a total psychopath who is able to maintain exterior control, we don't have him yet.  i know who he is, all the timelines fit, the evidence keeps piling up.  

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 2, 2019 6:10:54 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Nov 2, 2019 0:56:47 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

I've got to say that I don't think it was creepy at all.  I have been wrestling with trying to decide if I think Oscar was framed or if he was guilty for years.  The 12-26-75 podcasters make a really good case for Oscar being innocent and framed BUT the two girl witnesses are a big obstacle for me.  

Did Sgt. Byrd coerce Oscar's daughter's boyfriend, Rick Carter to change the time Oscar got home? I kind of think he did.  I believe Oscar's daughter when she said she heard him say (I'll paraphrase) You got away with it last time but we've got you this time. 

I don't  feel that Sgt. Byrd was was some evil person out to get Oscar on some personal vendetta but I'm thinking that he was absolutely convinced Oscar was guilty.  Sgt. Byrd knew Donna since she was a baby and made a heartbreaking comment that he was worried she was cold while they were searching for her on that frigid December night.  Oscar got away with a slap on the wrist 10 years before when he attempted to rape 18 year old Connie G. at the St. John's river.  That same day he went to knocked on a farmhouse door and told the housewife that he wanted to have sex with her.  She slammed the door in his face.

His receipt book was found by the bicycle and Gloria Moscorro, the grove worker and Beth Brumley said Oscar was out in the area driving around saying pornographic things to Beth and flashing himself to Gloria who was right around the corner from where Donna's bike was found and about the same time she was abducted. That is quite a coincidence and if true then it is damming.   

I go back and forth on thinking DeAngelo framed Oscar by putting the receipt book by the bike BUT....my stumbling blocks are those two girl witnesses.  Even if DeAngelo got a white truck and put on a blond wig, he would not have passed as Oscar.  It's thought that Sgt Byrd showed Gloria Moscorro a picture of Oscar  (he's showing her something, but nobody really can say what, it's just speculation that it was a picture of Oscar. If I were a betting woman, I would bet it was, BUT even if DeAngelo put on a blond wig I don't think it would fool the girls.  Why would the girls testify in court in a murder trial that it was Oscar. 

So really for me I'd believe Oscar was innocent and was framed except for those two girl witnesses.  

By the way, why has the blond haired boy, Johnny Grueber, and Brent Trueblood not been interviewed by the podcasters?  I wonder what they have to say?  .  They were also supposed to be exculpatory witnesses but Oscar's lawyer didn't call them.  Are they exculpatory witnesses or not?

Does anyone know why the TSCO Oscar Clifton lineup photo has all the suspects wearing sunglasses.  Did the suspect for Beth Brumley and/or Gloria Moscorro have sunglasses on?

Wow, how observant!  It's funny how some things that are so obvious and in your face escape me sometimes.  Now I wonder too, was the person Beth Brumley and Gloria Moscorro saw wearing sunglasses?  I wonder if the men in the lineup were also told to take their sunglasses off.

[jb1510]

Nov 2, 2019 15:31:54 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Nov 2, 2019 6:10:54 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Does anyone know why the TSCO Oscar Clifton lineup photo has all the suspects wearing sunglasses.  Did the suspect for Beth Brumley and/or Gloria Moscorro have sunglasses on?

Wow, how observant!  It's funny how some things that are so obvious and in your face escape me sometimes.  Now I wonder too, was the person Beth Brumley and Gloria Moscorro saw wearing sunglasses?  I wonder if the men in the lineup were also told to take their sunglasses off.

Hi Sandia , do you have a link for the Oscar Clifton 1965 offence ? Thanks 

Edit - Found it , thought it would be difficult to locate . 

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 2, 2019 13:18:00 GMT steelbike said:

Nov 2, 2019 0:56:47 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

I've got to say that I don't think it was creepy at all.  I have been wrestling with trying to decide if I think Oscar was framed or if he was guilty for years.  The 12-26-75 podcasters make a really good case for Oscar being innocent and framed BUT the two girl witnesses are a big obstacle for me.  

Did Sgt. Byrd coerce Oscar's daughter's boyfriend, Rick Carter to change the time Oscar got home? I kind of think he did.  I believe Oscar's daughter when she said she heard him say (I'll paraphrase) You got away with it last time but we've got you this time. 

I don't  feel that Sgt. Byrd was was some evil person out to get Oscar on some personal vendetta but I'm thinking that he was absolutely convinced Oscar was guilty.  Sgt. Byrd knew Donna since she was a baby and made a heartbreaking comment that he was worried she was cold while they were searching for her on that frigid December night.  Oscar got away with a slap on the wrist 10 years before when he attempted to rape 18 year old Connie G. at the St. John's river.  That same day he went to knocked on a farmhouse door and told the housewife that he wanted to have sex with her.  She slammed the door in his face.

His receipt book was found by the bicycle and Gloria Moscorro, the grove worker and Beth Brumley said Oscar was out in the area driving around saying pornographic things to Beth and flashing himself to Gloria who was right around the corner from where Donna's bike was found and about the same time she was abducted. That is quite a coincidence and if true then it is damming.   

I go back and forth on thinking DeAngelo framed Oscar by putting the receipt book by the bike BUT....my stumbling blocks are those two girl witnesses.  Even if DeAngelo got a white truck and put on a blond wig, he would not have passed as Oscar.  It's thought that Sgt Byrd showed Gloria Moscorro a picture of Oscar  (he's showing her something, but nobody really can say what, it's just speculation that it was a picture of Oscar. If I were a betting woman, I would bet it was, BUT even if DeAngelo put on a blond wig I don't think it would fool the girls.  Why would the girls testify in court in a murder trial that it was Oscar. 

So really for me I'd believe Oscar was innocent and was framed except for those two girl witnesses.  

By the way, why has the blond haired boy, Johnny Grueber, and Brent Trueblood not been interviewed by the podcasters?  I wonder what they have to say?  .  They were also supposed to be exculpatory witnesses but Oscar's lawyer didn't call them.  Are they exculpatory witnesses or not?

I do regret stating what I stated in that post the way that I did. What I had really meant was that the only two options were not that the young women were telling the truth or that they were lying, they could have been mistaken. Both saw him very briefly in surprising and shocking circumstances (while he was wearing big a**, super dark sunglasses?). If the LE had wanted them to ID photos of Oscar then it would have been possible to influence them feel as though it was Oscar Clifton that they had seen that day— that they were lying was not the only possibility and being a sober intelligent adult, the DA knows that. It felt to me that he was attempting to bully the interviewer.

The EAR did things thoroughly, if he was going to frame someone than he would have obsessively planned the entire production. Just as we know the details of OC’s 1965 conviction so would he have. The wild imagination that I possess has over the last year had me wondering if the VR hadn’t had an accomplice for VR crimes including, perhaps, this one.

I don’t know what happened. I don’t see much evidence against either JJD or OC. If Clifton committed thi horrible crime where were the blood, the weapon or the wounds that that strong young woman would likely have inflicted? The invoice book, for me, is more evidence pointing to JJD than to Clifton. The way that Donna Richmond’s things were scattered along the way towards Clifton’s house does seem staged to me. I don’t think the underwear would have been thrown from a moving truck into the ditch. I think that it would have required pulling over and placing them there — why not put everything there? Why were her shoes placed on their soles in the mud five miles apart? The EAR seems to have a shoe fetish.

It seems to me that two contradictory things were going on, OC was running blindly along out of his mind throwing evidence of his crime all over the place and then suddenly calm enough to get rid of weapons and every trace of blood and his having been freaked out— all in a very short period of time.

Yes, I get your point.  Witnesses that see someone suddenly and by surprise can be incredibly wrong.   LE can prejudice a witness by showing a picture before the lineup.  The sunglasses are also a good point.  Still, I do have a hard time thinking the two separate girl witnesses would be so wrong for each of them to pick out the same man in a lineup with 5 other somewhat similar looking men and all wearing sunglasses. 

Oscar was tall and thin and blond. DeAngelo, well, we've all seen his pictures when he was in the Exeter PD.  He looked absolutely nothing like Oscar.  The man that flashed Gloria Moscorro got out of the car and was standing up. So she would have got a good idea of his weight and height.   Also, Exeter being so small, if DeAngelo was committing crimes out there I doubt he'd be showing his face in broad daylight so that when the girls go to the Exeter PD, they could say, "Oh, there he is, right there but now he's in uniform."

The framing and the staging.  You are preaching to the choir.  I've had a framing theory for years and years and I do think DeAngelo attempted to frame certain people, people that were known to LE as small time drug dealers etc. and Oscar would have been the absolute perfect person to frame.  

LE would not have planted the invoice book.  So if Oscar didn't drop it, then I think DeAngelo did.  Next for LE to hide exculpatory evidence or lean on Rick Carter, show a picture of Oscar to a witness, yes, I can buy that.  

Throwing clothes out the window, LE did not do that.  A woman found Donna's slacks in the roadway before police were called.  So if the clothes was an attempt at framing, then that was DeAngelo. 

But was Oscar just dumb and thinking he was disposing of evidence that would never be found; and thinking if found, how could it be connected to him anyway?  The shoes landing on their soles: 

Here a link to Youtube showing how tossing Vans shoes result in them always landing on their soles.   

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnBpkgzCzfU

Here is a Youtube showing Crocs always landing on their soles.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCddhTe6V4s


I've always wondered about Oscar's truck.  How is it that pictures of the inside of his truck show it pretty dirty, yet no blood, no fibers, no hair,  nothing in the truck.  That is a big point for Oscar as far as I'm concerned.  Gloria Moscorros father and brother saw the white truck leaving, could describe the side mirrors but didn't notice the large black letters F O R D  on the back?  Is it possible Oscar had access to some other White truck?  Not a Ford?    There are so many unanswered questions. 

Oscar seemed to be a bumbling dufus to me.  Attempting to rape Connie G.  (she ID'd him, a man on the bridge saw him, cops caught him hiding by the river in the same bathing suit she described.)  Then to go to the farmhouse and say that to the woman.  That behavior fits in with his driving around and what he did with the two girl witnesses.  Then if he actually kidnapped and murdered Donna, dropping his book is also out of control, throwing the clothes out of the car is a dufus move and if he is guilty, he just seems like an out of control perpetrator.  Makes me think he was drinking. 

I would be convinced Oscar was framed and innocent BUT....the two girl witnesses!!!  That is a hard one to overcome.  Plus what do Johnny Grueber (the blond haired boy) and Brent Trueblood have to say?  So they were exculpatory witnesses yet were not called by Oscar's attorney and did not testify?  Why?  What do they have to say today?  Why have the 12-24-75 podcasters not interviewed them?  Or have they?  I'd love to know what they have to say.

[kg]

The man who attempted the rape on Connie at the lake was wearing a mask. How could she truly ID him?

[pod]

Sandia, excellent!

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 2, 2019 16:42:20 GMT kg said:

The man who attempted the rape on Connie at the lake was wearing a mask. How could she truly ID him?

read the report.  Clifton himself admits it but he said he was trying to say hi, that he knew her mother, and fell on top of her.  I mean, come on!

[Deleted]

This is interesting for providing context.
www.newspapers.com/clip/34924529/oscar_clifton_no_fingerprints_of/