Heartbreaking Video From Jennifer Carole

[nighttimeslueth77]

Jul 11, 2020 18:12:04 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

I think it's terrible for victims to watch programs about the murder of their loved ones. But cops do speculate on what happened. They take clues and evidence and put together a theory. The rape victims were removed to another room and raped and left there. The murder victims were all found in their beds. Does Jennifer think he removed them and raped them in another room and then returned them to their beds and murdered them in their beds? Does she think he murdered them in another room and then carried them to their beds? I'm having trouble understanding why she is so furious at a detective that is looking at evidence and coming up with a theory.

We've always thought how horrific the murders were for the husband to witness the rape of his wife and then one of them was murdered first and the partner had to witness that and knew that they would be next. It's been discussed on the board how horrible it was for the victims.

The images they plan on showing on HBO...They've agreed to not show close up images? So they were planning on that? What kind of crappy program would do that?

We've all seen images of the victims in bed. There has been no close ups, but I have seen one woman nude on her stomach with a bit of blurring on her back side. We've seen the amount of blood around their heads. But there has been no close up's of their heads or faces. I wonder what HBO was planning on showing that they've agreed not to. I'd like to know, are there some sort of laws regarding showing graphic images on t.v? If it's a channel that you have to pay to watch does that change the laws regarding that?

Everyone has a right to watch a crime program, or a disturbing program or not. This must be an extremely difficult decision for victims and family of victims. It's about their lives, they are interested but it has to be traumatic for them at the same time. I think it's a good idea for any program to have a warning before any scene that might be particularly disturbing, so people can choose to fast forward and skip that part of the program.

I don't get the Paul Holes bashing. He solved the case. He worked on the case for (20 years?) from way back when he discovered the boxes in the evidence room. He went down the wrong path several times to be so disappointed he felt like quitting, yet he didn't. He kept plugging away. He's a scientist and a detective so his unique abilities lead him to work on the DNA and he discovered that the EAR was the Original Night Stalker aka Golden State Killer, by reaching out to other criminalists.

Then he got a team together to work on the new technique of tracing the family tree back in time. He and his team solved the case. How can anyone say F - you to Paul Holes? And to say it's all about the money? How about patting him on his back and saying congratulations. A number of retired detectives have gone on to be consultants on crime shows and even get their own show. One of my favorite detectives, Joe Kenda, has done that. Why do people begrudge other's success. Why not congratulate them and pat them on the back. What's wrong with making money?

By the way, I've watched several episodes of "The DNA of Murder" and Paul Holes did it again. He's solved cases, cleared names. Episode 1 was so good. Crime solved. Episode 5 is about the Al Kite murder that I've always been interested in and think there could be a connection to the murder of Kym Morgan in Santa Barbara. I think he's solved that case too but the fiend might be in Romania or Turkey and associated with terrorists and possibly hard to catch but they have found his relatives. Outstanding work that Paul Holes continues to do.

Well said and I couldn't agree more. I understand that Jennifer is upset and my heart breaks for her, but villianizing the person that (through his work with DNA) finally helped bring her father and Charlene's murderer to justice is not a good look for her..And I don't understand the outrage concerning his theory. It makes complete sense to me and I don't think he is saying it to be gruesome or dramatic at all. He is an investigator, part of his job is to come up with different theories as to how the crime took place.

[pod]

Jul 12, 2020 5:25:23 GMT oriass said:

[removed by moderator]

She probably has a few suggestions for you too.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Jennifer saw pictures that no doubt deeply traumatized her and she was also given some very disturbing details that she doesn't want to share because they are too terrible. I don't know what they are and I'm probably better off not knowing. I think Jennifer was truly distraught and unfortunately lashed out because of her pain. I just felt the need to defend Paul Holes who in my book was a fabulous detective and I wish we could clone him.

[paulienyc84]

I understand why Jennifer is so upset. For 40 years, she has believed that her father and stepmother were murdered in a very specific way. No doubt, she has played that scenario over and over in her head. She has accepted it. She has made peace with it. Now, to hear that what she thought happened wasn't true and what really happened is much more horrific had to traumatize her all over again. Now, she is playing the new scenario out in her head and it's opening up old wounds. I don't know for a fact but I speculate that Paul Holes' complete theory is that the Smith's were tied upl Lyman was killed first; then Charlene was raped in bed next to him and then Charlene was killed. And, in my opinion, that is so much more horrific than what we actually thought happened. If JJD really committed the ONS murders this way, he is so much more evil than I thought.

[faser41]

Thanks for clarity again paulienyc84 following the thread but haven’t watched video.

[brentwoodseeker]

Jul 12, 2020 5:40:56 GMT pod said:

Jul 12, 2020 5:25:23 GMT oriass said:

[removed by moderator]

She probably has a few suggestions for you too.

This post should be deleted and the poster suspended. Not ok.

[richmond]

oriass has been banned. It is unacceptable to insult the family members of murder victims at this forum.

[elroacho]

That was tough to watch, couldn't finish it.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Jul 12, 2020 6:50:12 GMT paulienyc84 said:

I understand why Jennifer is so upset. For 40 years, she has believed that her father and stepmother were murdered in a very specific way. No doubt, she has played that scenario over and over in her head. She has accepted it. She has made peace with it. Now, to hear that what she thought happened wasn't true and what really happened is much more horrific had to traumatize her all over again. Now, she is playing the new scenario out in her head and it's opening up old wounds. I don't know for a fact but I speculate that Paul Holes' complete theory is that the Smith's were tied upl Lyman was killed first; then Charlene was raped in bed next to him and then Charlene was killed. And, in my opinion, that is so much more horrific than what we actually thought happened. If JJD really committed the ONS murders this way, he is so much more evil than I thought.

Pauli, what did you think happened?  Since each couple was found in bed next to each other, I've always assumed they were killed in bed and the husband was forced to watch his wife be raped unless he was killed first.  I'm not sure it's possible to know who was killed first but perhaps there is some sort of evidence that will let investigators know that.  No matter who was, the second victim to be killed had it the worst, absolutely unimaginable, and this only serves to show what a disgusting pig monster DeAngelo is and he deserves a much worse punishment that what he is getting.

There must be evidence that indicated what happened and where.  

[john]

Jennifer's post was hard to watch. I don't remember the exact words but when she spoke of her conversation with the Ventura DA about what they believed happened in the house, it was disturbing. Paul's statement seems so "out there" and it makes no sense to me. JJD's depravity is boundless.

[f1guyus]

It’s normally easy to determine in a case like this who died first. The blood spatters overlap. The spatters on top are from the second victim. My Dad has been gone a long time but a couple of things he said stuck with me. “If you can’t say something nice don’t say anything”. So I won’t.

[paulienyc84]

Jul 12, 2020 17:31:21 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Jul 12, 2020 6:50:12 GMT paulienyc84 said:

I understand why Jennifer is so upset. For 40 years, she has believed that her father and stepmother were murdered in a very specific way. No doubt, she has played that scenario over and over in her head. She has accepted it. She has made peace with it. Now, to hear that what she thought happened wasn't true and what really happened is much more horrific had to traumatize her all over again. Now, she is playing the new scenario out in her head and it's opening up old wounds. I don't know for a fact but I speculate that Paul Holes' complete theory is that the Smith's were tied upl Lyman was killed first; then Charlene was raped in bed next to him and then Charlene was killed. And, in my opinion, that is so much more horrific than what we actually thought happened. If JJD really committed the ONS murders this way, he is so much more evil than I thought.

Pauli, what did you think happened?  Since each couple was found in bed next to each other, I've always assumed they were killed in bed and the husband was forced to watch his wife be raped unless he was killed first.  I'm not sure it's possible to know who was killed first but perhaps there is some sort of evidence that will let investigators know that.  No matter who was, the second victim to be killed had it the worst, absolutely unimaginable, and this only serves to show what a disgusting pig monster DeAngelo is and he deserves a much worse punishment that what he is getting.

There must be evidence that indicated what happened and where.  

I always assumed that the ONS rapes went down like they did during the EAR series; JJD separated the man and woman and raped the woman in another room.  He had never raped a woman in the same room that the man was in during the EAR series so I thought he followed that script; especially since LE kept repeating over and over again how the offender followed the exact same script every time because it "worked for him".  However, during the ONS murders, his MO did change so I guess it's possible that he changed the way he did the sexual assaults, too.  It is much more horrific to think that the women saw their husbands murdered then were raped next to their dead bodies.  And, you're right, JJD is a disgusting pig monster.  Just thinking about this new scenario is sickening.

[imagigator]

He was sick. However, he likely didn't follow the same routine in the house as the ONS. First, he knew that he was going to kill whoever was in the house. This made it more likely that his assaults became much more personal. Second, my belief as to why he separated the man and the woman were identifying factors. Adding a second witness to hear him commit the actual assaults would increase the scope of information out there. I truly doubt he was able to keep up his clenched teeth routine during the entirety of each crime. Finally, my belief is that he committed the EAR crimes and didn't kill the victims, aside from the two incidents of pure self-preservation, was that he knew they were out living their lives and he could feel above them. He could call and harass them, or even drive by their house and reminisce about what he did. The ONS series took his depravity far beyond what any real human can comprehend. Aside from his own sick desire, he killed out of protecting the identity of who he was. He never wanted the two series to be tied together. Unfortunately for him, DNA had other plans. My heart hurts for all of the victims out there and the surviving family members. May they all find peace.

[f1guyus]

From the BlinkyRed posts on the old A&E forum.

“ Posted: Jun 26, 2005 7:37 PM (33 of 73)
He was getting more brazen and more aggressive with each attack.

The later attacks in SAC increased in violence and MO from the earlier ones.
By the time he reach CCC he had perfected his technique and I think he was getting bored with his success.
Domination and intimidation was what he appeared to find pleasurable.
He also liked walking around people's houses like he owned the place while keeping
them bound in separate parts of the house. The power that must have given him.
Even then, there was a break and when he hits SoCal - he gets into the same
scenario on his first attack - he's bored and now the thrill level must be increase, so
he kills them. I'm convinced that if he had kept at it, the victims in later attacks would
be gone through very painful death - not putting a blanket over their head had
knocking them with a lump of wood, they would have been very bazaar deaths.

Like a drug addict JJD needed a bigger kick as time passed. More fear and terror. He wanted one or both of his victims to know exactly what was going to happen.

[elir]

Wasn't there evidence that the spare bedroom was used at some point with the assumption that he raped Charlene in the spare room then put her back in the bed with Lyman?