Why Oscar Clifton is innocent - in its most compact form

[Red909XMZ1]

Dec 7, 2020 9:10:02 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Dec 7, 2020 4:59:54 GMT murderinc said:

Here's an interesting paragraph from that same abc10 article:

"Reid said it made no sense for Clifton, who was in the process of “collecting a $120,000 accident judgement and had recently closed on land to build houses,” to step out of his normal workday, brutally murder a 14 year-old girl, return home clean, and go out to a family dinner. “Which of these things is really more believable? That Clifton committed murder and somehow erased all physical evidence in two minutes... Or that an Exeter Police sergeant, with advanced degrees in forensics and investigations, currently charged in 13 other homicides; that he killed Donna and staged the scenes in an attempt to misdirect the investigation and to frame Clifton as the VR?”


Note $120K in 1976 would be worth $555k in 2020.  After the conviction, as the 12-26-75 podcast has said, because he was given the death penalty (originally, overturned to life later), and because the accident judgment was meant to replace lost future earnings, and as an inmate he had no future earnings, he never received any money from said judgment.

Johnny,

You need to fact check the articles you present.

Firstly, Clifton did not have a normal work day. He worked as a handyman doing odd jobs. If I am incorrect, and he had a full-time job or career, please let me know.

Secondly, JJD does not possess an advanced degree. He earned a bachelor's degree in criminal justice from Sacramento State in 1971. Of course, he would of attended LE trainings and such, to engage in proper professional development; however, that is not considered an advanced degree, such as a master's or doctorate degree from an accredited university.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that am aware of that Clifton would have had had to get rid of all physical evidence "in two minutes" to be culpable of this crime.

The 12-26-75 duo are experts at cherry picking,🍒 and in my opinion, that is all they accomplish in their podcasts. Cherry picking is when one only selects evidence that is favorable to their case. All other evidence that does not favor their case is discounted.

🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒

[johnnyhands1]

Dec 7, 2020 9:56:06 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

Dec 7, 2020 9:10:02 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Here's an interesting paragraph from that same abc10 article:

"Reid said it made no sense for Clifton, who was in the process of “collecting a $120,000 accident judgement and had recently closed on land to build houses,” to step out of his normal workday, brutally murder a 14 year-old girl, return home clean, and go out to a family dinner. “Which of these things is really more believable? That Clifton committed murder and somehow erased all physical evidence in two minutes... Or that an Exeter Police sergeant, with advanced degrees in forensics and investigations, currently charged in 13 other homicides; that he killed Donna and staged the scenes in an attempt to misdirect the investigation and to frame Clifton as the VR?”


Note $120K in 1976 would be worth $555k in 2020.  After the conviction, as the 12-26-75 podcast has said, because he was given the death penalty (originally, overturned to life later), and because the accident judgment was meant to replace lost future earnings, and as an inmate he had no future earnings, he never received any money from said judgment.

Johnny,

You need to fact check the articles you present.

Firstly, Clifton did not have a normal work day. He worked as a handyman doing odd jobs. If I am incorrect, and he had a full-time job or career, please let me know.

Secondly, JJD does not possess an advanced degree. He earned a bachelor's degree in criminal justice from Sacramento State in 1971. Of course, he would of attended LE trainings and such, to engage in proper professional development; however, that is not considered an advanced degree, such as a master's or doctorate degree from an accredited university.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that am aware of that Clifton would have had had to get rid of all physical evidence "in two minutes" to be culpable of this crime.

The 12-26-75 duo are experts at cherry picking,🍒 and in my opinion, that is all they accomplish in their podcasts. Cherry picking is when one only selects evidence that is favorable to their case. All other evidence that does not favor their case is discounted.

🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒

According to 12-26-75, Oscar had a trucking business in Las Vegas before the auto accident, which I don't know the details of (perhaps the accident laid him up long enough to where the business went bankrupt, or maybe he couldn't drive the truck for long periods of time anymore due to his knee - both just guesses.) But since the accident case jury didn't award him any money when he got life in prison, whatever he was doing with the trucking business was worth $120K in 1976 money in lost future earnings.  Don't know for sure, but it sounds like the 120k judgment amount was the difference between what he would have earned, lifetime, with the trucking business vs. what he would earn as a handyman.

As far as police officer qualifications at the time were concerned, a bachelors degree was an "advanced degree." 12-26-75 has said it doesn't believe he had any other special training other than the Roseville internship (they don't think he wasn't pursing an honors program at the College of Sequoias like his Exeter newspaper blurb said.) I'm neutral on that.

Regarding the two minutes for crime scene cleanup, does your Oscar Clifton timeline place him at Garden St. earlier than 3:15pm, or do you not think he was there at all?  

If so, we're back to the original question of this thread, how did he know about the freezer loading/"It's about time" comment as soon as the next morning if he wasn't there? 

You could have explanations for it (e.g., you could agree with DA Powell, and say his defense team fed him the line - in what would be suborning perjury, and disinterested witness Frank Thomas, in his sworn statement to Sgt. Byrd, lied about defense investigator Pettyjohn asking him first about the "it's about time" statement.)  Or you could think Thomas was mistaken about looking at his watch and seeing 3:15pm.  Was it 2:15 instead?  If so, how did Jim Irwin and the other freezer loaders leave the Tulare Hospital at 2pm, drive to Mrs. Kelly's in Visalia, load her freezer, and drive to Garden St. all in 15, or even 20 minutes.  If it was that early, why did Mrs. Irwin have to wait until 4:15 for her husband to arrive at the hospital. What were they doing all that time?  

Seriously, I'm a little fuzzy on why it took the freezer loaders all the way to 3:15 to arrive to Garden St. I'd like to know when Irwin and company were contacted for interviews by Pettyjohn (if at all) and when they were contacted by Sgt. Byrd.  Was it six months later, like Frank Thomas?  Memories fade after that long.  Thomas on the other hand had his memory refreshed four days later, by Pettyjohn.  

Part of your timeline explanation could also mean that 12-26-75 doesn't have really have defense attorney Donohue's handwritten intake notes from the morning of Dec. 27, 1975? Do you think they're lying? Or just mistaken?

And let's not forget about suppressed Garden St. witnesses Johnny Guerber and Brent Trueblood (Never heard of them? If not, you haven't had a thorough discussion of this case, I'm afraid.) Whether these two witnesses were suppressed by the prosecution or the defense is the question.

You can have any opinion you like about Oscar's timeline, but you need to explain it.

[Red909XMZ1]

Dec 7, 2020 10:46:38 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Dec 7, 2020 9:56:06 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

Johnny,

You need to fact check the articles you present.

Firstly, Clifton did not have a normal work day. He worked as a handyman doing odd jobs. If I am incorrect, and he had a full-time job or career, please let me know.

Secondly, JJD does not possess an advanced degree. He earned a bachelor's degree in criminal justice from Sacramento State in 1971. Of course, he would of attended LE trainings and such, to engage in proper professional development; however, that is not considered an advanced degree, such as a master's or doctorate degree from an accredited university.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that am aware of that Clifton would have had had to get rid of all physical evidence "in two minutes" to be culpable of this crime.

The 12-26-75 duo are experts at cherry picking,🍒 and in my opinion, that is all they accomplish in their podcasts. Cherry picking is when one only selects evidence that is favorable to their case. All other evidence that does not favor their case is discounted.

🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒

According to 12-26-75, Oscar had a trucking business in Las Vegas before the auto accident, which I don't know the details of (perhaps the accident laid him up long enough to where the business went bankrupt, or maybe he couldn't drive the truck for long periods of time anymore due to his knee - both just guesses.) But since the accident case jury didn't award him any money when he got life in prison, whatever he was doing with the trucking business was worth $120K in 1976 money in lost future earnings.  Don't know for sure, but it sounds like the 120k judgment amount was the difference between what he would have earned, lifetime, with the trucking business vs. what he would earn as a handyman.

As far as police officer qualifications at the time were concerned, a bachelors degree was an "advanced degree." 12-26-75 has said it doesn't believe he had any other special training other than the Roseville internship (they don't think he wasn't pursing an honors program at the College of Sequoias like his Exeter newspaper blurb said.) I'm neutral on that.

Regarding the two minutes for crime scene cleanup, does your Oscar Clifton timeline place him at Garden St. earlier than 3:15pm, or do you not think he was there at all?  

If so, we're back to the original question of this thread, how did he know about the freezer loading/"It's about time" comment as soon as the next morning if he wasn't there? 

You could have explanations for it (e.g., you could agree with DA Powell, and say his defense team fed him the line - in what would be suborning perjury, and disinterested witness Frank Thomas, in his sworn statement to Sgt. Byrd, lied about defense investigator Pettyjohn asking him first about the "it's about time" statement.)  Or you could think Thomas was mistaken about looking at his watch and seeing 3:15pm.  Was it 2:15 instead?  If so, how did Jim Irwin and the other freezer loaders leave the Tulare Hospital at 2pm, drive to Mrs. Kelly's in Visalia, load her freezer, and drive to Garden St. all in 15, or even 20 minutes.  If it was that early, why did Mrs. Irwin have to wait until 4:15 for her husband to arrive at the hospital. What were they doing all that time?  

Seriously, I'm a little fuzzy on why it took the freezer loaders all the way to 3:15 to arrive to Garden St. I'd like to know when Irwin and company were contacted for interviews by Pettyjohn (if at all) and when they were contacted by Sgt. Byrd.  Was it six months later, like Frank Thomas?  Memories fade after that long.  Thomas on the other hand had his memory refreshed four days later, by Pettyjohn.  

Part of your timeline explanation could also mean that 12-26-75 doesn't have really have defense attorney Donohue's handwritten intake notes from the morning of Dec. 27, 1975? Do you think they're lying? Or just mistaken?

And let's not forget about suppressed Garden St. witnesses Johnny Guerber and Brent Trueblood (Never heard of them? If not, you haven't had a thorough discussion of this case, I'm afraid.) Whether these two witnesses were suppressed by the prosecution or the defense is the question.

You can have any opinion you like about Oscar's timeline, but you need to explain it.

Hi Johnny,

The 12-26-75 duo are not only experts at cherry picking, they are presenting flagrant lies and blantant statements of hyperbole in their podcasts.

Please do not mimic their outrageous, incendiary methods. Fact check, fact check, fact check.

Johnny states: "He had a trucking business before the accident..."

Yes, of course, I was highly aware of that fact. He, however, was a local handyman doing odd jobs at the time of Donna's murder.

Presenting that he did anything else at the time of Donna's murder is an outright lie.

The 12-26-75 duo desire their audience to believe that Clifton was a loving man and father - a dutiful, angelic choir boy - oh, boo-hoo, I think I'm going to cry!😭

Please, it is more like, "I think I'm going to vomit." Blech!🤮

This is the most disgusting, egregious part of the entire presentation of their podcasts.

Johnny also states: " ...a bachelors [sic] degree was an 'advanced degree'."

No, Johnny, it has never been, nor will it ever be considered an "advanced degree" -- again, the 12-26-75 duo are turning and twisting the truth, and it is vital that everyone is aware of the highly unethical methods they are employing here.

I have not had time to present a proper case summary of why I believe that Clifton was guilty of Donna's murder.

Hopefully, in the next week I will be able to find some time to do just that. I got to go. Bye for now.

[elir]

Red, Johhny was respectfully disagreeing, please respond in kind.
Steelbike, please don't aggravate the situation.

[Red909XMZ1]

Dec 8, 2020 3:49:26 GMT elir said:

Red, Johhny was respectfully disagreeing, please respond in kind.
Steelbike, please don't aggravate the situation.

Elir,

I was respectfully disagreeing with Johnny, yet showing my significant distate for the 12-26-75 podcast, and how they have not shown and/or suppressed important information.

Johnny, I do apologize if my frustation was in any way offensive to you.

I am completely tired, though, of a certain member here who always is mocking me or being completely inappropriate, such as calling me dirty names.

That has got to stop. Period.

[johnnyhands1]

Dec 8, 2020 4:39:47 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

Dec 8, 2020 3:49:26 GMT elir said:

Red, Johhny was respectfully disagreeing, please respond in kind.
Steelbike, please don't aggravate the situation.

Elir,

I was respectfully disagreeing with Johnny, yet showing my significant distate for the 12-26-75 podcast, and how they have not shown and/or suppressed important information.

Johnny, I do apologize if my frustation was in any way offensive to you.

I am completely tired, though, of a certain member here who always is mocking me or being completely inappropriate, such as calling me dirty names.

That has got to stop. Period.

Can you give us examples of important information that 12-26-75 has either not shown or suppressed?

[almagata]

Dec 8, 2020 4:39:47 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

Dec 8, 2020 3:49:26 GMT elir said:

Red, Johhny was respectfully disagreeing, please respond in kind.
Steelbike, please don't aggravate the situation.

Elir,

I was respectfully disagreeing with Johnny, yet showing my significant distate for the 12-26-75 podcast, and how they have not shown and/or suppressed important information.

Johnny, I do apologize if my frustation was in any way offensive to you.

I am completely tired, though, of a certain member here who always is mocking me or being completely inappropriate, such as calling me dirty names.

That has got to stop. Period.

I've listened to all of the 12/26/75 podcasts and they have read the entire trial transcript and pulled all the evidence that Tulare County Sheriff could not find to destroy. 

I sure don't know what information you believe they have suppressed.  It is the Tulare County Sheriff's office that illegally destroyed all the evidence used to convict Oscar Clifton. 

[zforce]

Dec 8, 2020 9:56:13 GMT almagata said:

Dec 8, 2020 4:39:47 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

Elir,

I was respectfully disagreeing with Johnny, yet showing my significant distate for the 12-26-75 podcast, and how they have not shown and/or suppressed important information.

Johnny, I do apologize if my frustation was in any way offensive to you.

I am completely tired, though, of a certain member here who always is mocking me or being completely inappropriate, such as calling me dirty names.

That has got to stop. Period.

I've listened to all of the 12/26/75 podcasts and they have read the entire trial transcript and pulled all the evidence that Tulare County Sheriff could not find to destroy. 

I sure don't know what information you believe they have suppressed.  It is the Tulare County Sheriff's office that illegally destroyed all the evidence used to convict Oscar Clifton. 

What is your source on LE “illegally” destroying evidence?

[zforce]

Dec 3, 2020 18:28:08 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Oscar Clifton is innocent…because he told his attorney the next morning, less than 24 hours after the events, about witnessing the freezer loading and Frank Thomas’ “it’s about time you showed up” quote. 12-26-75 says they have the Dec. 27, 1975 morning intake notes made by defense attorney Donohue in their possession - which details Oscar’s alibi of being on Garden St - not perving two different other girls miles away, who eventually testified against him at trial. How would Oscar know about the Garden St. events involving people he didn’t know - if he wasn’t there. His time after arriving home in the 4 o’clock hour that day (after the kidnapping and murder was committed) don’t allow for him to go hunting in Visalia for an alibi - he was around other people the entire time from four o’clock hour , other than a short 1/4 mile drive around 5pm to his nearby in-laws to meet his wife, until he was arrested in the early AM of December 27.

SUPPORTING DETAIL:
Defense investigator Pettyjohn, a few days later on December 30, 1975, based on what Oscar told attorney Donohue the next morning, asked Thomas about the “it’s about time” comment and Thomas confirmed he had said it. He also said that at that moment, because the freezers loaders were “almost an hour-and-a-half late” he looked at his watch and it was around 3:15pm. He told the same story to TCSO Sgt. Byrd six months later, and he said about looking at his watch, “one hand was on the three and the other hand was a little before 3 or after it.” He also told Sgt. Byrd that Pettyjohn asked him first about the “it’s about time” comment and the freezer loading, not the other way around, as the prosecution claimed.

It wasn’t 2:15pm as some have said because the agreement between Thomas and the freezer loaders was to arrive between 1pm and 2pm, that’s what made 3:15pm “an hour-and-a-half” late. I believe Thomas was a man looking at his watch that day because he was expecting the freezer loaders to arrive any time for over two hours. He was also expecting out-of-town company to arrive that day as well.

Also, one of the freezer loaders’s wife testified that she was dropped off at a Tulare hospital at 2pm, and the freezer loading trio then went to Mrs. Kelly house in Visalia before going to Garden St. to pick up a different freezer. So they couldn’t have made it to Garden St. by 2:15pm (the drive from Tulare to Visalia, the loading of Mrs. Kelly’s freezer, then driving to Garden St could not have been done in fifteen minutes.)

Bill Rose, owner of the Garden St. rental house that Oscar was working on, said he was at the house between 2:30 and 3pm and he didn’t see any freezer loading.

Gene Owens saw Oscar’s truck at around 2:55pm and leaving around 3:05pm in North Visalia. He didn’t know for sure it was Oscar’s truck at the time, but when Oscar called him on Dec. 27 after being arrested for kidnapping but released on bail, he told Owens exactly what he was doing while Oscar was driving past him. Owens was convinced it had to have been Oscar.

One person who wasn’t looking at his watch was Oscar Clifton himself, apparently. He said he was at Garden St. around 3:40 pm (but it must have been 3:15pm if he heard Thomas make the “it’s about time” comment and give details to his attorney the next morning.)  

EDIT:  the Tulare County Conviction Integrity Review says Clifton testified at trial it was between 3:30 and 3:50 when he arrived at Garden St.
 
    www.facebook.com/December261975/photos/a.2223110034627608/2223110137960931 (page 7 of 8)

Why didn’t Oscar know about Frank Thomas verifying the “it’s about time” comment and the freezer loading details and the 3:15pm time? 12-26-75 says that attorneys can’t share evidence they gathered with their clients as that would leave them open to suborning perjury, so Oscar had know idea of what supporting evidence there was (all the the things above) - until trial. Any attorneys out there who can refute that?

The freezer loaders gave times in the 2pm hour at trial, but the evidence points to it being 3:15, not 2:15 - and they weren’t looking at their watches apparently either.

So you can believe the two young women Oscar supposedly perved, at the times the prosecution said he was at two disparate locations, but you’d have to not believe all the defense-bolstering witnesses. So you have to believe one group of witnesses and not believe another.

There wasn’t enough time for Oscar to drive to all the locations involved in the crimes that day, on the prosecution’s timeline.
There’s a lot more - to flesh out even more about I’ve laid out above, as well as uncalled witnesses to Oscar at Garden St., undisclosed evidence to the defense, shenanigans with the physical evidence, coercing/threatening of prosecution witnesses, illegal destruction of evidence, and more. Plus a defense team that was either incompetent and/or corrupt. Oscar’s alibi was never laid out to the jury.

If you believe Oscar wasn’t at Garden St. at 3:15pm, then you have to explain the attorney notes I mentioned above - and all this other evidence. Though some on these message boards have claimed to have discussed the Clifton case ad nauseam, if you haven’t explained the next-morning attorney notes with Oscar’s witnessing of the Thomas “it’s about time” quote and the freezer loading and what time it happened, you haven’t really discussed Oscar's alibi at all.

I think the major issue here with the timeline testimony is three people gave differing testimony as to when the freezer loading took place. My opinion is that the jury gave less weight to that testimony, because the times were so differing for something that needed to be exactly agreed upon by all parties to have any merit on their verdict given the other testimony and physical evidence in the case.

[johnnyhands1]

Dec 8, 2020 14:42:21 GMT zforce said:

Dec 3, 2020 18:28:08 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Oscar Clifton is innocent…because he told his attorney the next morning, less than 24 hours after the events, about witnessing the freezer loading and Frank Thomas’ “it’s about time you showed up” quote. 12-26-75 says they have the Dec. 27, 1975 morning intake notes made by defense attorney Donohue in their possession - which details Oscar’s alibi of being on Garden St - not perving two different other girls miles away, who eventually testified against him at trial. How would Oscar know about the Garden St. events involving people he didn’t know - if he wasn’t there. His time after arriving home in the 4 o’clock hour that day (after the kidnapping and murder was committed) don’t allow for him to go hunting in Visalia for an alibi - he was around other people the entire time from four o’clock hour , other than a short 1/4 mile drive around 5pm to his nearby in-laws to meet his wife, until he was arrested in the early AM of December 27.

SUPPORTING DETAIL:
Defense investigator Pettyjohn, a few days later on December 30, 1975, based on what Oscar told attorney Donohue the next morning, asked Thomas about the “it’s about time” comment and Thomas confirmed he had said it. He also said that at that moment, because the freezers loaders were “almost an hour-and-a-half late” he looked at his watch and it was around 3:15pm. He told the same story to TCSO Sgt. Byrd six months later, and he said about looking at his watch, “one hand was on the three and the other hand was a little before 3 or after it.” He also told Sgt. Byrd that Pettyjohn asked him first about the “it’s about time” comment and the freezer loading, not the other way around, as the prosecution claimed.

It wasn’t 2:15pm as some have said because the agreement between Thomas and the freezer loaders was to arrive between 1pm and 2pm, that’s what made 3:15pm “an hour-and-a-half” late. I believe Thomas was a man looking at his watch that day because he was expecting the freezer loaders to arrive any time for over two hours. He was also expecting out-of-town company to arrive that day as well.

Also, one of the freezer loaders’s wife testified that she was dropped off at a Tulare hospital at 2pm, and the freezer loading trio then went to Mrs. Kelly house in Visalia before going to Garden St. to pick up a different freezer. So they couldn’t have made it to Garden St. by 2:15pm (the drive from Tulare to Visalia, the loading of Mrs. Kelly’s freezer, then driving to Garden St could not have been done in fifteen minutes.)

Bill Rose, owner of the Garden St. rental house that Oscar was working on, said he was at the house between 2:30 and 3pm and he didn’t see any freezer loading.

Gene Owens saw Oscar’s truck at around 2:55pm and leaving around 3:05pm in North Visalia. He didn’t know for sure it was Oscar’s truck at the time, but when Oscar called him on Dec. 27 after being arrested for kidnapping but released on bail, he told Owens exactly what he was doing while Oscar was driving past him. Owens was convinced it had to have been Oscar.

One person who wasn’t looking at his watch was Oscar Clifton himself, apparently. He said he was at Garden St. around 3:40 pm (but it must have been 3:15pm if he heard Thomas make the “it’s about time” comment and give details to his attorney the next morning.)  

EDIT:  the Tulare County Conviction Integrity Review says Clifton testified at trial it was between 3:30 and 3:50 when he arrived at Garden St.
 
    www.facebook.com/December261975/photos/a.2223110034627608/2223110137960931 (page 7 of 8)

Why didn’t Oscar know about Frank Thomas verifying the “it’s about time” comment and the freezer loading details and the 3:15pm time? 12-26-75 says that attorneys can’t share evidence they gathered with their clients as that would leave them open to suborning perjury, so Oscar had know idea of what supporting evidence there was (all the the things above) - until trial. Any attorneys out there who can refute that?

The freezer loaders gave times in the 2pm hour at trial, but the evidence points to it being 3:15, not 2:15 - and they weren’t looking at their watches apparently either.

So you can believe the two young women Oscar supposedly perved, at the times the prosecution said he was at two disparate locations, but you’d have to not believe all the defense-bolstering witnesses. So you have to believe one group of witnesses and not believe another.

There wasn’t enough time for Oscar to drive to all the locations involved in the crimes that day, on the prosecution’s timeline.
There’s a lot more - to flesh out even more about I’ve laid out above, as well as uncalled witnesses to Oscar at Garden St., undisclosed evidence to the defense, shenanigans with the physical evidence, coercing/threatening of prosecution witnesses, illegal destruction of evidence, and more. Plus a defense team that was either incompetent and/or corrupt. Oscar’s alibi was never laid out to the jury.

If you believe Oscar wasn’t at Garden St. at 3:15pm, then you have to explain the attorney notes I mentioned above - and all this other evidence. Though some on these message boards have claimed to have discussed the Clifton case ad nauseam, if you haven’t explained the next-morning attorney notes with Oscar’s witnessing of the Thomas “it’s about time” quote and the freezer loading and what time it happened, you haven’t really discussed Oscar's alibi at all.

I think the major issue here with the timeline testimony is three people gave differing testimony as to when the freezer loading took place. My opinion is that the jury gave less weight to that testimony, because the times were so differing for something that needed to be exactly agreed upon by all parties to have any merit on their verdict given the other testimony and physical evidence in the case.

Yes, I agree, your explanation of the way the jury saw things makes sense. Also note: they also never heard from the teenage Garden St. witnesses, who said they saw Oscar there , Johnny Guerber and Brent Trueblood, among other unheard evidence, which might have changed things.

Do you think Oscar was at Garden St. witnessing the freezer loading/"it's about time" comment by Frank Thomas (without an opinion of the time, for now), or was he fed that line from defense investigator Pettyjohn - which, I'm pretty sure, would have been suborning perjury? Do you think that would mean he did not tell defense attorney Donohue about those same things, the morning og December 27, 1975, and 12-26-75 is lying or mistaken about those defense attorney intake notes they say they have in their possession?

If Pettyjohn fed Oscar the "it's about time"/freezer loading info, it's odd that 1) Oscar, at trial, estimated his Garden St. arrival at either “3:40 pm” or “between 3:30 and 3:50pm” rather than the “3:15 or 3:20pm” that Thomas had told Pettyjohn on December 31, 1975; 2) Thomas told Byrd in a interview in June 1976, that Pettyjohn asked him first about the “it’s about time” comment.

Frank Thomas Interview with Sgt. Byrd, June 21, 1976:

www.facebook.com/December261975/photos/a.2634118536860087/2634118693526738


Frank Thomas sworn statement to defense investigator Pettyjohn, December 31, 1975:

12-26-75 podcast, “Ep. 1 It’s About Time You Showed Up” ~38:00

[almagata]

Dec 8, 2020 13:46:48 GMT zforce said:

Dec 8, 2020 9:56:13 GMT almagata said:

I've listened to all of the 12/26/75 podcasts and they have read the entire trial transcript and pulled all the evidence that Tulare County Sheriff could not find to destroy. 

I sure don't know what information you believe they have suppressed.  It is the Tulare County Sheriff's office that illegally destroyed all the evidence used to convict Oscar Clifton. 

What is your source on LE “illegally” destroying evidence?

12-26-75 documents the illegal destruction of the Donna Richmond case evidence by detective. Bob Byrd of the Tualare County Sheriff's Office.  They have copies of the order of destruction with notes indicating he ordered the destruction. 

12-26-75.com/f/the-destruction-of-evidence-by-tulare-county

 

[zforce]

Dec 8, 2020 22:33:33 GMT almagata said:

Dec 8, 2020 13:46:48 GMT zforce said:

What is your source on LE “illegally” destroying evidence?

12-26-75 documents the illegal destruction of the Donna Richmond case evidence by detective. Bob Byrd of the Tualare County Sheriff's Office.  They have copies of the order of destruction with notes indicating he ordered the destruction. 

12-26-75.com/f/the-destruction-of-evidence-by-tulare-county

 

The evidence that was purged in the case by LE was not bound by any court ruling to be preserved. It was done so legally and within a standard set by most departments. Not a single appellate court ever ruled in Clifton’s favor on the subject.

[zforce]

Dec 8, 2020 19:43:43 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Dec 8, 2020 14:42:21 GMT zforce said:

I think the major issue here with the timeline testimony is three people gave differing testimony as to when the freezer loading took place. My opinion is that the jury gave less weight to that testimony, because the times were so differing for something that needed to be exactly agreed upon by all parties to have any merit on their verdict given the other testimony and physical evidence in the case.

Yes, I agree, your explanation of the way the jury saw things makes sense. Also note: they also never heard from the teenage Garden St. witnesses, who said they saw Oscar there , Johnny Guerber and Brent Trueblood, among other unheard evidence, which might have changed things.

Do you think Oscar was at Garden St. witnessing the freezer loading/"it's about time" comment by Frank Thomas (without an opinion of the time, for now), or was he fed that line from defense investigator Pettyjohn - which, I'm pretty sure, would have been suborning perjury? Do you think that would mean he did not tell defense attorney Donohue about those same things, the morning og December 27, 1975, and 12-26-75 is lying or mistaken about those defense attorney intake notes they say they have in their possession?

If Pettyjohn fed Oscar the "it's about time"/freezer loading info, it's odd that 1) Oscar, at trial, estimated his Garden St. arrival at either “3:40 pm” or “between 3:30 and 3:50pm” rather than the “3:15 or 3:20pm” that Thomas had told Pettyjohn on December 31, 1975; 2) Thomas told Byrd in a interview in June 1976, that Pettyjohn asked him first about the “it’s about time” comment.

Frank Thomas Interview with Sgt. Byrd, June 21, 1976:

www.facebook.com/December261975/photos/a.2634118536860087/2634118693526738


Frank Thomas sworn statement to defense investigator Pettyjohn, December 31, 1975:

12-26-75 podcast, “Ep. 1 It’s About Time You Showed Up” ~38:00

[

I don’t really have an opinion on whether he was fed the line or not, but the prosecution speculated at the time that he was. Why a defense attorney would put his client on the stand to testify to a time that didn’t match that of the other witnesses is beyond me though. The timeline is the only thing they had to bank on to escape a conviction so it seems like a boneheaded move given that part of the testimony has to stick or they basically have no defense.

[murderinc]

Dec 8, 2020 23:10:21 GMT zforce said:

Dec 8, 2020 22:33:33 GMT almagata said:

12-26-75 documents the illegal destruction of the Donna Richmond case evidence by detective. Bob Byrd of the Tualare County Sheriff's Office.  They have copies of the order of destruction with notes indicating he ordered the destruction. 

12-26-75.com/f/the-destruction-of-evidence-by-tulare-county

 

The evidence that was purged in the case by LE was not bound by any court ruling to be preserved. It was done so legally and within a standard set by most departments. Not a single appellate court ever ruled in Clifton’s favor on the subject.

THIS IS FALSE

[steelbike]

Can anyone describe how Oscar Clifton abducted and then killed Donna Richmond? Where he abducted her? How he got her into his truck? How he managed to leave no physical evidence? How, after stabbing her seventeen times he avoided any blood being found on his clothes or in his truck? Where he got rid of his own bloody clothes and thick glasses disguise? Would any of you be able to block out a re-enactment for one of those true crime shows? I wouldn’t be able to.