Ron Little - Liberty Security

[bradw]

Apr 8, 2022 10:43:31 GMT kjfit said:

Apr 8, 2022 6:27:04 GMT bradw said:

"I remember years ago reading on a Topix Virginia forum a thread about the Colonial Parkway Murders and someone local on that thread mentioned about R Little being at that party but also the other deputy who worked for Liberty (SB) being there - again that may be just a rumour."

As far as I understand, that's not only just a rumor, but it's a rumor that may have been started by none other than Fred Atwell. If anyone has direct knowledge that an adult was at that party, I hope they provide that information to law enforcement.

From page 314 of A Special Kind of Evil: "Atwell's accusation that one of the pair might have been at the party has never been validated by any source."

I question whether Atwell made that accusation because he knew it was believable, not because he had evidence to support the accusation.

Page 199 of A Special Kind of Evil also states that the former deputy (not Atwell) "and Little were known for their crashing of local parties." I do not know the source for that statement, but it would not be surprising based on known facts about Little.

Wasn't little in his early 30's then? That party had kids in their late teens and early 20s. I'm not saying he didn't attend but it's kind of creepy if he showed up there, especially being married.

Little seemed like an oddball looking for attention. That one paragraph, seven page letter that he wrote and copied to people like Oprah, Current Affair, and others was bizarre.

It's a strange coincidence that so many people he knew and worked with had ties to the crimes though.

Ron was 33 on the day Keith Call and Sandy Hailey disappeared.

The other person (the former deputy) was 27, about to turn 28.

From what I understand about the ages of people at that party, I would consider it to be strange and creepy, but I suppose that's a subjective assessment.

If they were there, it seems like they would have stood out, but I don't know how big the party was.

However, nobody interviewed about that fact remembered them being there, and I do not believe anyone has come forward to say that they were there. (Caveat: I am unsure how many people who were at the party were interviewed about that fact.) That seems to make it less likely that they were at that party, but it's still possible.

[tosh]

Bradw I never knew that was Ron Little’s birthday that day, that is very interesting.

[bradw]

Apr 8, 2022 19:42:06 GMT tosh said:

Bradw I never knew that was Ron Little’s birthday that day, that is very interesting.

I apologize: I did not mean that Ron Little turned 33 on that day. I meant that he was 33 when they disappeared.

Ron's birthday was January 24, 1955.

However, I have found it extremely interesting that Fred Atwell's 39th birthday was the day that Keith Call and Sandy Hailey disappeared. (Atwell was born on April 10, 1949. Keith and Sandy disappeared after midnight on April 10, 1988.)

I have been doing quite a bit of research and writing (so far, just for myself) about these cases, and a lot that I have found about Atwell continues to trouble me. Atwell may be a red herring, but the totality of circumstances regarding Atwell disturbs me. (Ron Little is also concerning.)

I hope to put together my findings about Atwell in a relatively short, coherent piece for others to consider.

That man sets off all my warning bells.

[kjfit]

Apr 8, 2022 17:37:38 GMT bradw said:

Apr 8, 2022 10:43:31 GMT kjfit said:

Wasn't little in his early 30's then? That party had kids in their late teens and early 20s. I'm not saying he didn't attend but it's kind of creepy if he showed up there, especially being married.

Little seemed like an oddball looking for attention. That one paragraph, seven page letter that he wrote and copied to people like Oprah, Current Affair, and others was bizarre.

It's a strange coincidence that so many people he knew and worked with had ties to the crimes though.

Ron was 33 on the day Keith Call and Sandy Hailey disappeared.

The other person (the former deputy) was 27, about to turn 28.

From what I understand about the ages of people at that party, I would consider it to be strange and creepy, but I suppose that's a subjective assessment.

If they were there, it seems like they would have stood out, but I don't know how big the party was.

However, nobody interviewed about that fact remembered them being there, and I do not believe anyone has come forward to say that they were there. (Caveat: I am unsure how many people who were at the party were interviewed about that fact.) That seems to make it less likely that they were at that party, but it's still possible.

I would think that most everyone who attended that party learned of Keith and Sandy's disappearance and the car being found on the parkway. Most of them probably followed the case over the years like many of us who lived in the area at the time. If Ron Little was at that party someone would remember and report it. He would have been thoroughly investigated. As far as him walking back to Gloucester after dumping the car its possible but pedestrians are not allowed on the coleman bridge, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. The killer(s) were careful to cover their tracks.

Just my opinion, we all have our theories and it's good to share them here and on other forums. Too bad there were not any cameras in public back then. If we could just find out what happened and where Keith and Sandy went during those 15 minutes after leaving the party. The best time to get information and possible witnesses was immediately after but law enforcement didn't take it seriously enough at first imo.

[mustangman]

Apr 9, 2022 10:33:22 GMT kjfit said:

Apr 8, 2022 17:37:38 GMT bradw said:

Ron was 33 on the day Keith Call and Sandy Hailey disappeared.

The other person (the former deputy) was 27, about to turn 28.

From what I understand about the ages of people at that party, I would consider it to be strange and creepy, but I suppose that's a subjective assessment.

If they were there, it seems like they would have stood out, but I don't know how big the party was.

However, nobody interviewed about that fact remembered them being there, and I do not believe anyone has come forward to say that they were there. (Caveat: I am unsure how many people who were at the party were interviewed about that fact.) That seems to make it less likely that they were at that party, but it's still possible.

I would think that most everyone who attended that party learned of Keith and Sandy's disappearance and the car being found on the parkway. Most of them probably followed the case over the years like many of us who lived in the area at the time. If Ron Little was at that party someone would remember and report it. He would have been thoroughly investigated. As far as him walking back to Gloucester after dumping the car its possible but pedestrians are not allowed on the coleman bridge, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. The killer(s) were careful to cover their tracks.

Just my opinion, we all have our theories and it's good to share them here and on other forums. Too bad there were not any cameras in public back then. If we could just find out what happened and where Keith and Sandy went during those 15 minutes after leaving the party. The best time to get information and possible witnesses was immediately after but law enforcement didn't take it seriously enough at first imo.

Maybe Ron was hanging around outside the party and that is why most people don't remember him being there.  I should have also said maybe he walked back or caught another ride back to his car that he left at the party, or possibly he did get a ride to the party and did need a lift home...  Or he walked back to where he hid the body's after dropping off Keith's car on the Parkway then got his car or a lift home later?  lots of possibilities..  lets not rule them out just because some people at a party, who are drinking, smoking pot, it's dark and late at night, don't happen to notice Ron at the party or hanging around outside...     

[bradw]

Apr 9, 2022 10:33:22 GMT kjfit said:

Apr 8, 2022 17:37:38 GMT bradw said:

Ron was 33 on the day Keith Call and Sandy Hailey disappeared.

The other person (the former deputy) was 27, about to turn 28.

From what I understand about the ages of people at that party, I would consider it to be strange and creepy, but I suppose that's a subjective assessment.

If they were there, it seems like they would have stood out, but I don't know how big the party was.

However, nobody interviewed about that fact remembered them being there, and I do not believe anyone has come forward to say that they were there. (Caveat: I am unsure how many people who were at the party were interviewed about that fact.) That seems to make it less likely that they were at that party, but it's still possible.

I would think that most everyone who attended that party learned of Keith and Sandy's disappearance and the car being found on the parkway. Most of them probably followed the case over the years like many of us who lived in the area at the time. If Ron Little was at that party someone would remember and report it. He would have been thoroughly investigated. As far as him walking back to Gloucester after dumping the car its possible but pedestrians are not allowed on the coleman bridge, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. The killer(s) were careful to cover their tracks.

Just my opinion, we all have our theories and it's good to share them here and on other forums. Too bad there were not any cameras in public back then. If we could just find out what happened and where Keith and Sandy went during those 15 minutes after leaving the party. The best time to get information and possible witnesses was immediately after but law enforcement didn't take it seriously enough at first imo.

I agree. Regarding the bridge, I believe both logistics and what I suspect is an element of the offender's/offenders' profile make it unlikely.

In 1988, it was even more difficult to walk across the Coleman Bridge, let alone do so unseen, because the bridge was only about one-third its present width. (It was rebuilt from 1994-96.) Additionally, there was a manned bridge house on top of it, from which a pedestrian almost certainly would have been seen during the mile long walk. Even in the late 1980's, there was a significant amount of traffic on the bridge, and this was a weekend (Saturday) night. (The bridge was the only public crossing of the York River. The only other bridges from the Virginia Peninsula to the Middle Peninsula were about 25 miles upriver, across York River tributaries.)

Based on the admittedly minimal public evidence, the offender or offenders appear to have been fairly organized, so I doubt they would have walked back across that bridge. A professional profiler, forensic psychologist, etc., would be a good person to ask about that aspect. (I am none of those.)

If it were one offender, I believe it's more likely that they walked (or even biked) back to a car or house, or to another location from which they got a ride or even hailed a cab (risky, but Dennis Rader successfully did that).

This site includes links to Library of Congress photos of Coleman Bridge before 1994-1996 rebuild (including views from bridge house and Yorktown side):
bridgehunter.com/va/york/19824/

Discussion of 1994-1996 Coleman Bridge rebuild:
www.roadstothefuture.com/Coleman_Bridge.html

[sammyt]

Apr 9, 2022 13:37:32 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 9, 2022 10:33:22 GMT kjfit said:

Maybe Ron was hanging around outside the party and that is why most people don't remember him being there.  I should have also said maybe he walked back or caught another ride back to his car that he left at the party, or possibly he did get a ride to the party and did need a lift home...  Or he walked back to where he hid the body's after dropping off Keith's car on the Parkway then got his car or a lift home later?  lots of possibilities..  lets not rule them out just because some people at a party, who are drinking, smoking pot, it's dark and late at night, don't happen to notice Ron at the party or hanging around outside...     

It's not unusual for killers to follow victims as they leave parties or nightclubs. 

This happened in two of the cases I research.  In both cases, police questioned the party goers, but drew a blank.

In the UK, the classic ruse is for the offender to pose as a mini cab driver, and offer the victim a lift home.

I think you're moving onto the right track with all this though... 

[sammyt]

Feb 20, 2021 22:49:26 GMT billthom56 said:

Feb 19, 2021 13:01:59 GMT cleopatra said:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailypress.com/virginia/dp-pway-4_investigator_051389-story.html%3foutputType=amp

In the article in the link it mentions a criminal record.  I wonder what his crimes were.

"Part of Little's immigration troubles, Bittner said, stem from the fact that he has a criminal record in New Zealand and Australia. Bittner said that Little never would have been allowed into the United States if he had disclosed his prior convictions."

Cleo:

For the life of me, I will never understand why the Feds deported Ron Little in August 1989 instead of looking at him harder for these unsolved murders.


Bill Thomas

Perhaps it was something to do with Blackmon senior...

[daedra]

Apr 9, 2022 21:53:37 GMT sammyt said:

Feb 20, 2021 22:49:26 GMT billthom56 said:

Cleo:

For the life of me, I will never understand why the Feds deported Ron Little in August 1989 instead of looking at him harder for these unsolved murders.


Bill Thomas

Perhaps it was something to do with Blackmon senior...

My thoughts exactly. Blackmon Senior had friends in high places. 

[billthom56]

Apr 7, 2022 19:26:39 GMT daedra said:

Apr 7, 2022 13:49:41 GMT tosh said:

After listening to one of your most recent podcasts where you discussed Brian and Laurie’s cases I think they were killed by separate people.
Bill, has it ever been confirmed if Ron Little was at the party Keith and Cassandra were at the night they disappeared ? Did one person claim to have seen him or did others see him too?
I remember years ago reading on a Topix Virginia forum a thread about the Colonial Parkway Murders and someone local on that thread mentioned about R Little being at that party but also the other deputy who worked for Liberty (SB) being there - again that may be just a rumour. I distinctly remember they mentioned the snake too.
It’s a shame that board is no longer available there was a lot of local chat on it.
Something about the way Fred Atwell attached himself to the Call family and the Call/Hailey investigation makes me think that was the case he knew most about and knew who was involved and a possible Liberty connection. Wasn’t there something about guns being sold to someone in Florida or is that my imagination? That has always piqued my interest.
Keith and Cassandra will be gone 34 years this weekend, I so hope their case and all the cases will be solved.
I hope the hair evidence will prove useful, good luck 🤞🏻.

I just listened to the new podcast episode as well and I have to agree with Tosh - it sounds like Brian and Laurie were most likely killed by different people. I had no idea Brian had such a checkered past and so many potential enemies. I also hadn't previously realized the time gap between when Laurie's boyfriend dropped her off and when he returned to pick her up was so short (40-ish minutes). When I heard that, I wondered if he killed and dumped her during that time frame. It wouldn't be the first time a killer claimed to have dropped off a victim and tried to blame a mysterious "other" for the killing. 40 minutes is just *such* a small window of time for a killer to stumble across her and decide to abduct her. I will admit though that it's possible 1) Laurie and her boyfriend were being stalked by CPK that night and when she jumped out of the car he grabbed her or 2) she called someone to come pick her up and that person turned out to be CPK. Not sure how to go about ruling out either of those theories though....


Edit: the coincidences for Laurie / Ron Little are SO weird though. Both worked at Liberty. Laurie and Ron's ex-wife went to school together and were in the same grade - the same yearbook page even! Laurie last seen near the Little Sue Ron and Steve were known to hang around at. I keep going in circles with this one. 


Bill - has Ron's ex-wife, Wendy, ever spoken about Ron? I wonder if she'd be able to tell us if she had some friendship or connection with Laurie Ann. Ron was a total creep so it would not surprise me at all if he set his sights on Laurie Ann and somehow, one thing led to another, and he killed her. 

Daedra:

Wendy Little has remarried and moved to another state. She has told me through her family that she wants nothing to do with her late husband Ron Little, nor any questions regarding the Colonial Parkway Murders, or the murders of Ron's former coworkers at Liberty Security, Brian Craig Pettinger and Laurie Ann Powell.

I have now managed to speak via phone or message with all 5 of Ron Little's grown children, however.  3 are in New Zealand and 2 are in the United States.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

[mustangman]

Apr 23, 2022 21:08:44 GMT billthom56 said:

Apr 7, 2022 19:26:39 GMT daedra said:

I just listened to the new podcast episode as well and I have to agree with Tosh - it sounds like Brian and Laurie were most likely killed by different people. I had no idea Brian had such a checkered past and so many potential enemies. I also hadn't previously realized the time gap between when Laurie's boyfriend dropped her off and when he returned to pick her up was so short (40-ish minutes). When I heard that, I wondered if he killed and dumped her during that time frame. It wouldn't be the first time a killer claimed to have dropped off a victim and tried to blame a mysterious "other" for the killing. 40 minutes is just *such* a small window of time for a killer to stumble across her and decide to abduct her. I will admit though that it's possible 1) Laurie and her boyfriend were being stalked by CPK that night and when she jumped out of the car he grabbed her or 2) she called someone to come pick her up and that person turned out to be CPK. Not sure how to go about ruling out either of those theories though....


Edit: the coincidences for Laurie / Ron Little are SO weird though. Both worked at Liberty. Laurie and Ron's ex-wife went to school together and were in the same grade - the same yearbook page even! Laurie last seen near the Little Sue Ron and Steve were known to hang around at. I keep going in circles with this one. 


Bill - has Ron's ex-wife, Wendy, ever spoken about Ron? I wonder if she'd be able to tell us if she had some friendship or connection with Laurie Ann. Ron was a total creep so it would not surprise me at all if he set his sights on Laurie Ann and somehow, one thing led to another, and he killed her. 

Daedra:

Wendy Little has remarried and moved to another state. She has told me through her family that she wants nothing to do with her late husband Ron Little, nor any questions regarding the Colonial Parkway Murders, or the murders of Ron's former coworkers at Liberty Security, Brian Craig Pettinger and Laurie Ann Powell.

I have now managed to speak via phone or message with all 5 of Ron Little's grown children, however.  3 are in New Zealand and 2 are in the United States.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

Why wouldn't Wendy Little talk about Ron now that he is dead?  If she has information about the murders she has no one to fear now if she talks.  Wendy still seems to be very afraid of anything having to do with the CPM's??  Why wouldn't she want to help if she could, they divorced 30+ years ago, what person wouldn't want to spill the dirt on an ex who might have been involved in murders, at least she could say she doesn't have any info or knowledge of the murders, then the families wouldn't keep wondering about what she might know?  Maybe she was an unwitting accomplice and doesn't want to admit it?  Maybe this is just her family saying she wants nothing to do with talking about Ron or the CPM's trying to protect her?  Is there someone still alive that can harm her if she talks?!?!  

[billthom56]

Apr 8, 2022 3:59:27 GMT bradw said:

Apr 7, 2022 19:26:39 GMT daedra said:

I just listened to the new podcast episode as well and I have to agree with Tosh - it sounds like Brian and Laurie were most likely killed by different people. I had no idea Brian had such a checkered past and so many potential enemies. I also hadn't previously realized the time gap between when Laurie's boyfriend dropped her off and when he returned to pick her up was so short (40-ish minutes). When I heard that, I wondered if he killed and dumped her during that time frame. It wouldn't be the first time a killer claimed to have dropped off a victim and tried to blame a mysterious "other" for the killing. 40 minutes is just *such* a small window of time for a killer to stumble across her and decide to abduct her. I will admit though that it's possible 1) Laurie and her boyfriend were being stalked by CPK that night and when she jumped out of the car he grabbed her or 2) she called someone to come pick her up and that person turned out to be CPK. Not sure how to go about ruling out either of those theories though....


Edit: the coincidences for Laurie / Ron Little are SO weird though. Both worked at Liberty. Laurie and Ron's ex-wife went to school together and were in the same grade - the same yearbook page even! Laurie last seen near the Little Sue Ron and Steve were known to hang around at. I keep going in circles with this one. 


Bill - has Ron's ex-wife, Wendy, ever spoken about Ron? I wonder if she'd be able to tell us if she had some friendship or connection with Laurie Ann. Ron was a total creep so it would not surprise me at all if he set his sights on Laurie Ann and somehow, one thing led to another, and he killed her. 

I was going to ask Bill the same question about Wendy. I agree that if the information regarding Ron Little continues to sound credible, it would be extremely helpful for law enforcement (or perhaps Bill) to speak to Wendy. If that's the case, I suspect Bill recognizes the potential importance of Wendy, and I would be surprised if law enforcement did *not* eventually speak to her.

Bill, I have some of Wendy's contact information, if you need it.

Laurie's now-deceased boyfriend at the time (Chris Cutler) and Keith's girlfriend at the time (I'm leaving out her name, because she's alive) were also both in the same class (1985) at Gloucester High School. The Gloucester High School connections are certainly worth thinking about.

There also exists a very tenuous connection to Gloucester's class of 1987 involving the relative of another potential person of interest with ties to Liberty Security whom I saw briefly referred to in one of these threads. It's a huge stretch, and maybe worth sharing with Bill in case he becomes aware of facts that render it relevant. I do not, however, want to post the names of people who absolutely are not involved, and this former student definitely was not involved.

Daedra, I assume your concerns about the 40 minute timeframe are one reason (among several) that law enforcement continued to look at Chris Cutler. (In A Special Kind of Evil, Blaine Pardoe and Victoria Hester detailed other circumstances that made Cutler a person of interest.)

However, I have absolutely no problem believing that somebody else could have taken her in that timeframe. Unfortunately, it happens too frequently. It could have been someone who specifically targeted Laurie Ann and either was following her or simply ran into her; or it could have been a crime of opportunity, either a murderer who was on the hunt that night (even specifically looking for women walking alone and/or hitchhiking) or who wasn't "hunting" that night but who saw a vulnerable target and pounced.

It's terrifying stuff.

Daedra:

Sorry, just back from CrimeCon in Las Vegas, which was fantastic.  Wendy Little (since remarried) has told us that she wants nothing to do with the late Ron Little or the Colonial Parkway Murders.  I have spoken with her son via Ron Little at some length in a phone calls over the last few weeks.  I would very much like to speak with Wendy, so we will see.

I have now spoken to several of the 5 women who had children by Ron Little, and one thing is clear-- every one of them just loathe Ron Little.

Thanks.

Bill Thomas

[daedra]

Wow! He sounds like a real POS. I wonder if she would be willing to answer some questions via her son. I get the feeling she is extremely traumatized by her time with Ron and that's why she's so hesitant to speak about it. She was basically a kid when they got married. I can't even imagine what it was like for a teenage girl married to a monster like Ron. Yikes. But I do think she may have some really solid information, even if it's just insight into Ron's relationship with his co-workers at Liberty and what he was up to after hours -- for example, the rumor about him being spotted at house parties near Christopher Newport University is shaky because Ron was an adult at the time, not a college student, but if Wendy knew him to party with young people, then that would add more credence to the rumor IMO. I'd also like to know more about Ron's relationship with Steve Blackmon and if Ron ever engaged in low-level drug dealing at some of the crime scene locations. She could have a gold mine of information and not even realize it.

[billthom56]

Apr 9, 2022 13:37:32 GMT mustangman said:

Apr 9, 2022 10:33:22 GMT kjfit said:

I would think that most everyone who attended that party learned of Keith and Sandy's disappearance and the car being found on the parkway. Most of them probably followed the case over the years like many of us who lived in the area at the time. If Ron Little was at that party someone would remember and report it. He would have been thoroughly investigated. As far as him walking back to Gloucester after dumping the car its possible but pedestrians are not allowed on the coleman bridge, he would have stuck out like a sore thumb. The killer(s) were careful to cover their tracks.

Just my opinion, we all have our theories and it's good to share them here and on other forums. Too bad there were not any cameras in public back then. If we could just find out what happened and where Keith and Sandy went during those 15 minutes after leaving the party. The best time to get information and possible witnesses was immediately after but law enforcement didn't take it seriously enough at first imo.

Maybe Ron was hanging around outside the party and that is why most people don't remember him being there.  I should have also said maybe he walked back or caught another ride back to his car that he left at the party, or possibly he did get a ride to the party and did need a lift home...  Or he walked back to where he hid the body's after dropping off Keith's car on the Parkway then got his car or a lift home later?  lots of possibilities..  lets not rule them out just because some people at a party, who are drinking, smoking pot, it's dark and late at night, don't happen to notice Ron at the party or hanging around outside...     

KJFit:

Totally agreed, although as recently as 2010-12, Fred Atwell was maintaining in conversations with me that Steve Blackmon and Ron Little (who did hang together) were seen at the party at the Christopher Newport apartments. One of many weird rabbit holes in the Colonial Parkway Murders.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

[mustangman]

May 15, 2022 19:30:45 GMT billthom56 said:

Apr 9, 2022 13:37:32 GMT mustangman said:

Maybe Ron was hanging around outside the party and that is why most people don't remember him being there.  I should have also said maybe he walked back or caught another ride back to his car that he left at the party, or possibly he did get a ride to the party and did need a lift home...  Or he walked back to where he hid the body's after dropping off Keith's car on the Parkway then got his car or a lift home later?  lots of possibilities..  lets not rule them out just because some people at a party, who are drinking, smoking pot, it's dark and late at night, don't happen to notice Ron at the party or hanging around outside...     

KJFit:

Totally agreed, although as recently as 2010-12, Fred Atwell was maintaining in conversations with me that Steve Blackmon and Ron Little (who did hang together) were seen at the party at the Christopher Newport apartments. One of many weird rabbit holes in the Colonial Parkway Murders.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

Did Atwell keep a list of witnesses who saw them at the party?  or did he just claim that people told him that they saw the pair at the party?   You would think that a real investigator would record all pertinent info while looking into murders?  Is there anyway to prove people saw the pair at the party beside what Atwell says?  Have any of the witnesses at the party come forward to say this also?