Medium: The Colonial Parkway Murders - A Tale of Two Killers

[billthom56]

Oct 26, 2021 18:26:00 GMT cleopatra said:

Oct 5, 2021 17:06:37 GMT njen said:

I agree with Cleo all four couples were killed by one person. Yes, as the article states, we don't have common DNA or fingerprints and the method of killing differs in most of the crimes. However, any true crime buff knows there's plenty of history of serial killers tweaking their methods of killing. If their signature relates to their method of killing, i.e. guy likes to stab in the heart, then their victims likely will all be killed that way. But if the signature relates to something less tangible, i.e. guy likes to remove shoes, then he may utilize different methods of killing in order to do that.
I still feel strongly that CPK liked the cat and mouse aspect of his crimes maybe even more than the actual murders. He thought a lot about staging the cars and the belongings in the cars, moving the cars, etc. to throw off the authorities. Yes, common DNA would be great but I think a lot of his behaviors tie the crimes together.

Without DNA matches, Detective McGowan was absolutely convinced with no doubt whatsoever, that the Visalia Ransacker (who murdered Professor Snelling) was the EAST AREA RAPIST.  No one stood by McGowen or backed him up. The biggest argument he faced was that Visalia was in Southern California and the EAR was 500 miles away in Northern California in Sacramento. 

Also without DNA, Paul Holes was absolutely convinced with no doubt whatsoever, that the EAST AREA RAPIST  was the ORIGINAL NIGHT STALKER who murdered various couples in Southern California.  The biggest arguments Holes faced were (1) the EAR was in Sacramento, 500 miles away and (2) LE knew one victim was murdered by her husband and LE had the business partner of yet another victim convicted and serving life in prison.   Holes stuck to his guns and despite resistance from all SoCal LE, he got a Contra Costa rape victim's DNA compared with the So California murders, AND they ALL matched. 

Those are 2 good examples of how Pre-DNA, it was detective intuition and skill,  and M.O., that linked murders to the same perp.





re the techniques used. 

Cleo:

One important correction: Visalia and Sacramento are 211 miles apart. 3 hours and 22 minutes by freeway.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

[billthom56]

Oct 22, 2021 18:06:23 GMT sammyt said:

Oct 22, 2021 17:10:58 GMT billthom56 said:

Sammy:

Lately, I feel like the Colonial Parkway Murders may be independent events, so at least 4 offenders.  Cathy Thomas and Becky Dowski's homicides may tie in to to Cathy's naval service, Robin Edwards and David Knobling ran into someone at the Ragged Island Wildlife Area parking lot (robbery or low level drug deal gone bad), Keith Call and Sandy Hailey were stopped by someone on the way home from the University Apartments at Christopher Newport University (not sure of motive), and Annamaria Phelps and Daniel Lauer were likely robbed, probably by someone they knew or were introduced to (again, robbery or low level drug deal gone bad).

At least that is how I feel in October 2021.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

Thanks for your reply Bill.  That's very interesting.  I'm not really up to speed on the CPK case, but I thought at least 2 or 3 of the crimes were likely linked.

The naval theory is well worth pursuing IMO.  What's your reasoning for this theory?

How long was Cathy in the navy?  How many locations was she based at, including training academies etc, and where?  Was her relationship with Becky known about?  How could a perp have known about her trip?

Sammy:

Replies to your questions:

Cathy attended the United States Naval Academy for 4 years (1977-1981), graduated with the second class of women to attend Annapolis.

Cathy served 5 years in Norfolk, Virginia.  3 years as an officer aboard the USS LY Y Spear, a submarine tender based in Norfolk 1981-1984, followed by 2 years as a protocol officer 1984-86.

Mid 1984 Cathy was investigated by the Naval Investigative Service (NIS), now called the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, or NCIS, for being a lesbian.  Cathy had been in a lesbian relationship with a former shipmate, an enlisted woman from the Spear.

The investigation was shut down by the Captain of the USS LY Spear, now deceased.

After skating on the NCIS investigation, Cathy was given a major promotion to protocol officer in the Navy Atlantic Fleet HQ, where she served for 2 more years.

Cathy began dating Rebecca Dowski in Spring 1986 after being introduced by Cathy's former girlfriend.  Cathy's friends and family knew about her relationship with Becky.

Cathy decided to leave the Navy after serving her required 5 years, and she left the service in June 1986.  They were murdered about 4 months later.

An offender could have known about their location by following them from the William and Mary campus, possibly from an unconfirmed visit to the Yorktown Pub, or from stalking them on the Colonial Parkway.

Cathy and Beck were known to frequent a favorite romantic spot on the Colonial Parkway on Thursday evenings that semester, likely the secluded Ringfield Plantation picnic area, less than a mile from where Cathy's Honda was found along the Colonial Parkway.

I do not think any of this is a coincidence.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

including training academies etc, and where? Was her relationship with Becky known about? How could a perp have known about her trip?

[cleopatra]

All that background on Cathy considered, I am still of the opinion that she and Becky were murdered by the CPK.

Why wait for her to leave the Navy?  Why go through so much extra work to kill out of rage and hatred for a gay female in the Navy?  Why not just shoot her somewhere, soon after her promotion, which would have been a last straw for someone loathing a gay female in the Navy?  If it were a hate crime, the killer woukd not

Cathy's and Becky's killer had a fantasy to fulfill.  He followed a bizarre ritual.  He repeated the ritual in future crimes.

Murdered victims are left and found where they were killed. Killers want to get away from the scene fast.  There's usually an obvious motive - domestic violence, drugs, rape, robbery, gang dispute, an altercation following a heated argument, etc.  

With these cases,

- There are no obvious motives, only speculation. 

- The victims were in vehicles. 

- They were kidnapped and then killed.

- Their bodies were relocated - moved from the actual murder sights. 

- The killer attempted to get rid of Cathy's car, which failed.  In future crimes, vehicles were left in wide-open spaces where they would be found right away. 

- The killer made a point to display personal items - Keith's watch and prescription eye glasses, Sandra's purse, Robin's purse and what were supposedly David's unopened condoms, and Annamaria's feathered roach clip.

In fact, there was an unopened package of a condom sitting on the open doors of the glove compartments of both Keith's car and David's truck.  I find this very strange. 

[sammyt]

I think that both theories have their merits... and thus are both worth pursuing...

[billthom56]

All:

As usual, Cleo make a number of excellent points.

At this point, I am pretty certain that Cathy and Becky's murder ties directly into Cathy's Naval service which ended just a few months before their deaths. Now the question is if we can get FBI Norfolk to do something about it.

Thanks.



Bill

[dickere]

Nov 12, 2021 15:50:38 GMT billthom56 said:

All:

As usual, Cleo make a number of excellent points.

At this point, I am pretty certain that Cathy and Becky's murder ties directly into Cathy's Naval service which ended just a few months before their deaths. Now the question is if we can get FBI Norfolk to do something about it.

Thanks.



Bill

Is that based on knowledge, piecing things together or just your instinct, Bill ?

[tosh]

Nov 10, 2021 17:17:01 GMT billthom56 said:

Oct 7, 2021 8:25:08 GMT tosh said:

I hope they will all be solved, the Shenandoah case could well be solved first - it is more recent and there is DNA. Cathy and Becky’s case feels more similar to that of Julie and Lollie than it does to any of the others. If they are connected that would rule out a Navy connection though and maybe the connection is the park aspect. Then does the security firm connection fall off the table? There is no obvious connection between the security firm and Cathy and Becky or Daniel and Annamaria.
Regardless of which case is solved first it should help with the others and whether they are connected or not.
Bill, do you know if Fred Atwell thought the cases were all connected?

Tosh:

From my many (!) conversations with the late Fred Atwell, I do not think that Atwell thought that all of the Colonial Parkway Murders were related.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

Thank you Bill. I have always wondered that if Fred Atwell knew anything about any of the cases it may have been about the disappearance of Keith and Cassandra. If only he had come out and said it if he did.

[mustangman]

Nov 15, 2021 14:46:54 GMT tosh said:

Nov 10, 2021 17:17:01 GMT billthom56 said:

Tosh:

From my many (!) conversations with the late Fred Atwell, I do not think that Atwell thought that all of the Colonial Parkway Murders were related.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas

Thank you Bill. I have always wondered that if Fred Atwell knew anything about any of the cases it may have been about the disappearance of Keith and Cassandra. If only he had come out and said it if he did.

After reading all that is out there on Fred Atwell & listening to POD casts and interviews pertaining to Fred, I believe that if he knew something that could definitely lead to catching the killer/killer's in any of these murders he would have done so.  He needed money and went as far as running a fake Raffle and befriending the families of the victims...  I think he would've found some way to get info to the authorities while also making money.  After all he was in jail for many years and could've used the name of a definite murderer as his get out of jail pass, but he didn't, because he probably had suspects, but no definite name to give LE.  This is my impression of Fred and I think Bill shares some of this same belief.  It sounds like Fred went as far as he could into investigating these murders and he had done a lot of good things for these investigations... he brought to the attention of the FBI the crime scene photos that were out in the public domain etc...  IMO Fred was just a guy trying to help out, but along the way he went down the wrong path in his own life.  

I think all Bill wishes for, is that Fred had given us all the names of his suspects & any other info he might not have shared with the families or LE.  IMHO, Fred didn't know (definitely) who the killer was.  Maybe one of his named suspects was the killer, but no one has proved him correct yet.

[tosh]

Nov 15, 2021 16:19:33 GMT mustangman said:

Nov 15, 2021 14:46:54 GMT tosh said:

Thank you Bill. I have always wondered that if Fred Atwell knew anything about any of the cases it may have been about the disappearance of Keith and Cassandra. If only he had come out and said it if he did.

After reading all that is out there on Fred Atwell & listening to POD casts and interviews pertaining to Fred, I believe that if he knew something that could definitely lead to catching the killer/killer's in any of these murders he would have done so.  He needed money and went as far as running a fake Auction and befriending the families of the victims...  I think he would've found some way to get info to the authorities while also making money.  After all he was in jail for many years and could've used the name of a definite murderer as his get out of jail pass, but he didn't, because he probably had suspects, but no definite name to give LE.  This is my impression of Fred and I think Bill shares some of this same belief.  It sounds like Fred went as far as he could into investigating these murders and he had done a lot of good things for these investigations... he brought to the attention of the FBI the crime scene photos that were out in the public domain etc...  IMO Fred was just a guy trying to help out, but along the way he went down the wrong path in his own life.  

I think all Bill wishes for, is that Fred had given us all the names of his suspects & any other info he might not have shared with the families or LE.  IMHO, Fred didn't know who the killer was. 

Mustang, I’ve been wondering this too - if he knew something then why not say it. I could only think that fear would prevent anyone from saying something - if the perpetrator was still alive and/or had friends in high places such as law enforcement or law. Obviously I have no idea if that’s the case in this instance or not, just thinking aloud. It sounds like he had his ear to the ground in the area, I remember reading about a abduction/rape along Route 17 and it was Fred Atwell who was tipped off where the victim’s car could be found at a hunting club. I guess he would have heard a lot.

[mustangman]

Nov 15, 2021 17:12:51 GMT tosh said:

Nov 15, 2021 16:19:33 GMT mustangman said:

After reading all that is out there on Fred Atwell & listening to POD casts and interviews pertaining to Fred, I believe that if he knew something that could definitely lead to catching the killer/killer's in any of these murders he would have done so.  He needed money and went as far as running a fake Auction and befriending the families of the victims...  I think he would've found some way to get info to the authorities while also making money.  After all he was in jail for many years and could've used the name of a definite murderer as his get out of jail pass, but he didn't, because he probably had suspects, but no definite name to give LE.  This is my impression of Fred and I think Bill shares some of this same belief.  It sounds like Fred went as far as he could into investigating these murders and he had done a lot of good things for these investigations... he brought to the attention of the FBI the crime scene photos that were out in the public domain etc...  IMO Fred was just a guy trying to help out, but along the way he went down the wrong path in his own life.  

I think all Bill wishes for, is that Fred had given us all the names of his suspects & any other info he might not have shared with the families or LE.  IMHO, Fred didn't know who the killer was. 

Mustang, I’ve been wondering this too - if he knew something then why not say it. I could only think that fear would prevent anyone from saying something - if the perpetrator was still alive and/or had friends in high places such as law enforcement or law. Obviously I have no idea if that’s the case in this instance or not, just thinking aloud. It sounds like he had his ear to the ground in the area, I remember reading about a abduction/rape along Route 17 and it was Fred Atwell who was tipped off where the victim’s car could be found at a hunting club. I guess he would have heard a lot.

This excerpt from the Dailey Press:  By MIKE HOLTZCLAW

STAFF WRITER |

DEC 22, 2018 AT 11:00 PM


"Atwell voiced strong opinions about who he thought committed the murders."

"Atwell, who died Sunday at age 69 at the MCV Hospital Security Care Unit, repeatedly said he believed some or all of the crimes were committed by one or more law enforcement agents. There were two people he consistently named, but no one has ever been charged in the four double-homicides."


I highly doubt that Fred would take a killers name to his grave with him. He had already been highly public in giving names of suspects, so he obviously had no fear of someone in high places. 

Do we know the names of these two people who Fred suspected of the murders?   (was it Steve Blackmon & Ron Little?)

[tosh]

Nov 15, 2021 17:32:16 GMT mustangman said:

Nov 15, 2021 17:12:51 GMT tosh said:

Mustang, I’ve been wondering this too - if he knew something then why not say it. I could only think that fear would prevent anyone from saying something - if the perpetrator was still alive and/or had friends in high places such as law enforcement or law. Obviously I have no idea if that’s the case in this instance or not, just thinking aloud. It sounds like he had his ear to the ground in the area, I remember reading about a abduction/rape along Route 17 and it was Fred Atwell who was tipped off where the victim’s car could be found at a hunting club. I guess he would have heard a lot.

This excerpt from the Dailey Press:  By MIKE HOLTZCLAW

STAFF WRITER |

DEC 22, 2018 AT 11:00 PM


"Atwell voiced strong opinions about who he thought committed the murders."

"Atwell, who died Sunday at age 69 at the MCV Hospital Security Care Unit, repeatedly said he believed some or all of the crimes were committed by one or more law enforcement agents. There were two people he consistently named, but no one has ever been charged in the four double-homicides."


I highly doubt that Fred would take a killers name to his grave with him. He had already been highly public in giving names of suspects, so he obviously had no fear of someone in high places. 

Do we know the names of these two people who Fred suspected of the murders?   (was it Steve Blackmon & Ron Little?)

That’s interesting, I had never read that before that he had consistently named two people.

[mustangman]

Nov 15, 2021 17:43:32 GMT tosh said:

Nov 15, 2021 17:32:16 GMT mustangman said:

This excerpt from the Dailey Press:  By MIKE HOLTZCLAW

STAFF WRITER |

DEC 22, 2018 AT 11:00 PM


"Atwell voiced strong opinions about who he thought committed the murders."

"Atwell, who died Sunday at age 69 at the MCV Hospital Security Care Unit, repeatedly said he believed some or all of the crimes were committed by one or more law enforcement agents. There were two people he consistently named, but no one has ever been charged in the four double-homicides."


I highly doubt that Fred would take a killers name to his grave with him. He had already been highly public in giving names of suspects, so he obviously had no fear of someone in high places. 

Do we know the names of these two people who Fred suspected of the murders?   (was it Steve Blackmon & Ron Little?)

That’s interesting, I had never read that before that he had consistently named two people.

www.dailypress.com/news/dp-nws-fred-atwell-death-1222-story.html


This is the path to the story I got saying Fred had "two suspects".  

Do we know who these two people are?  I cant remember if Bill Thomas had already named Fred's suspects here on this board?

[tosh]

Nov 15, 2021 17:32:16 GMT mustangman said:

Nov 15, 2021 17:12:51 GMT tosh said:

Mustang, I’ve been wondering this too - if he knew something then why not say it. I could only think that fear would prevent anyone from saying something - if the perpetrator was still alive and/or had friends in high places such as law enforcement or law. Obviously I have no idea if that’s the case in this instance or not, just thinking aloud. It sounds like he had his ear to the ground in the area, I remember reading about a abduction/rape along Route 17 and it was Fred Atwell who was tipped off where the victim’s car could be found at a hunting club. I guess he would have heard a lot.

This excerpt from the Dailey Press:  By MIKE HOLTZCLAW

STAFF WRITER |

DEC 22, 2018 AT 11:00 PM


"Atwell voiced strong opinions about who he thought committed the murders."

"Atwell, who died Sunday at age 69 at the MCV Hospital Security Care Unit, repeatedly said he believed some or all of the crimes were committed by one or more law enforcement agents. There were two people he consistently named, but no one has ever been charged in the four double-homicides."


I highly doubt that Fred would take a killers name to his grave with him. He had already been highly public in giving names of suspects, so he obviously had no fear of someone in high places. 

Do we know the names of these two people who Fred suspected of the murders?   (was it Steve Blackmon & Ron Little?)

I’m not 100% sure if it’s the same Fred Atwell but if so someone had an axe to grind against him in 1989.

Daily Press, May 3rd, 1989

Someone shot a Gloucester County man's truck as he delivered newspapers early Tuesday, the county Sheriff's Department said. Fred Atwell was driving on Route 625 at Ware Neck when he heard what sounded like a rock hitting his truck, police said. When he finished his route and stopped at a convenience store, he found a bullet hole on the right rear fender.

[dickere]

Nov 15, 2021 17:32:16 GMT mustangman said:

Nov 15, 2021 17:12:51 GMT tosh said:

Mustang, I’ve been wondering this too - if he knew something then why not say it. I could only think that fear would prevent anyone from saying something - if the perpetrator was still alive and/or had friends in high places such as law enforcement or law. Obviously I have no idea if that’s the case in this instance or not, just thinking aloud. It sounds like he had his ear to the ground in the area, I remember reading about a abduction/rape along Route 17 and it was Fred Atwell who was tipped off where the victim’s car could be found at a hunting club. I guess he would have heard a lot.

This excerpt from the Dailey Press:  By MIKE HOLTZCLAW

STAFF WRITER |

DEC 22, 2018 AT 11:00 PM


"Atwell voiced strong opinions about who he thought committed the murders."

"Atwell, who died Sunday at age 69 at the MCV Hospital Security Care Unit, repeatedly said he believed some or all of the crimes were committed by one or more law enforcement agents. There were two people he consistently named, but no one has ever been charged in the four double-homicides."


I highly doubt that Fred would take a killers name to his grave with him. He had already been highly public in giving names of suspects, so he obviously had no fear of someone in high places. 

Do we know the names of these two people who Fred suspected of the murders?   (was it Steve Blackmon & Ron Little?)

Holtzclaw is an unusual yet familiar name isn't it. Hmmm.

[mustangman]

Nov 16, 2021 16:53:57 GMT dickere said:

Nov 15, 2021 17:32:16 GMT mustangman said:

This excerpt from the Dailey Press:  By MIKE HOLTZCLAW

STAFF WRITER |

DEC 22, 2018 AT 11:00 PM


"Atwell voiced strong opinions about who he thought committed the murders."

"Atwell, who died Sunday at age 69 at the MCV Hospital Security Care Unit, repeatedly said he believed some or all of the crimes were committed by one or more law enforcement agents. There were two people he consistently named, but no one has ever been charged in the four double-homicides."


I highly doubt that Fred would take a killers name to his grave with him. He had already been highly public in giving names of suspects, so he obviously had no fear of someone in high places. 

Do we know the names of these two people who Fred suspected of the murders?   (was it Steve Blackmon & Ron Little?)

Holtzclaw is an unusual yet familiar name isn't it. Hmmm.

"Holtzclaw is an unusual yet familiar name isn't it. Hmmm."


What?   please tell me where we've heard that name before?  is it associated to one of our suspects in the CPK murders?   please no riddles...   lol