Excitement's Crave - a line-by-line analysis.

[cityofchill]

Jul 31, 2017 0:41:05 GMT albion said:

I am curious how many people were aware of Frances Marion, or the poem inspiration, prior to reading about this case.

I have a few more questions about the title of the poem. I am wondering if the poem that people think inspired the "excitement's Crave" title is very popular in academia. Is it something that would be taught or referenced? I am hoping to contrast that with Francis Marion's reputation and exploits as a guerilla fighter in the Revolutionary War. His tactics would seem to be something studied about, if not by all sectors of society, at least by students of the military arts.

And yet he also had a TV series based on his life from 59 to 61. Would they have mentioned the poem reference in it? I dont know if the show went into reruns after those years, but is it safe to say, that if earons was introduced to Frances Marion through the TV show that might narrow down his age somewhat?

In terms of how earons came by the title, I seem to think running across it because of his love for poetry to be the least likely. And if it was from the TV show, could that be one of his biggest inspirations? To be interested enough in Frances Marion to be able to use this title when he decides to write a poem about his own crimes, seems to mean it was highly influential. But I dont think that was the extent of it. He also goes on to mention other violent guerilla type criminals. I dont think people would think of Son of Sam as a legitimate guerilla type fighter, but other than not having any political leanings, he did have an effect on society.

I am curious too about the Revolutionary Was and the extent that the US and Britain did use proxies and employed mercenaries. "Accepting work to perform, with promise for more." Regular pay with the promise of plunder? Plunder is such a dated word. I feel like a pirate just writing. If I were to be writing a serious poem, I think I might go to the thesaurus and find another word or phrase that I could replace it with.

So if Marion did influence earons, could it have been enough of an influence to make him want to join the military? And one would hope that he would have washed out of the service because he was a nutjob. But then how would he have known to refer to Col Boyd and his classified materials? If we are talking pre-1980, who would have that combination of data running around their defective brains?

Those are good questions, albion. I tried to address the title and gave a tertiary comparison of EC to 'Marion,' but never really finished. I've planned to come back to both the title and 'Marion,' and finish what I started, but I wanted to get through the remaining stanzas first. 

I do have some ideas in response to your questions, but I want to think a little more before I write anything. Thank-you for your continued contributins to the thread and for keeping us all thinking about the many dimensions of the poem. 

[vivazapata]

I had an acquaintance that taught English and he told me about programs they use to run all their papers through to check for plagiarism, I dont know the extent of what they check for and I am not in touch so I cant have him do it but I would be curious to see if it would pick up anything that was "borrowed".

[cityofchill]

Jul 31, 2017 16:51:29 GMT vivazapata said:

I had an acquaintance that taught English and he told me about programs they use to run all their papers through to check for plagiarism, I dont know the extent of what they check for and I am not in touch so I cant have him do it but I would be curious to see if it would pick up anything that was "borrowed".

That is a good idea, and many members have done this kind of thing. Not with any academic software or database as they use to detect plagiarism, but some interesteresting connections have been made with members doing Google searches. I believe the connection to Marion was made this way. 

[intuitiva]

Aug 2, 2017 21:07:57 GMT cityofchill said:

Jul 31, 2017 16:51:29 GMT vivazapata said:

I had an acquaintance that taught English and he told me about programs they use to run all their papers through to check for plagiarism, I dont know the extent of what they check for and I am not in touch so I cant have him do it but I would be curious to see if it would pick up anything that was "borrowed".

That is a good idea, and many members have done this kind of thing. Not with any academic software or database as they use to detect plagiarism, but some interesteresting connections have been made with members doing Google searches. I believe the connection to Marion was made this way. 

books.google.com/

[cityofchill]

Aug 8, 2017 13:01:56 GMT @malboner said:

M. William Phelps stated his belief that the author of the poem "cannot hide his deep-seated Russian roots". Seems that not many opinions have been put forth though about EARONS and the possible Russian heritage. When EARONS is captured, it may be found that his current surname originally included "sky" or possibly "owsky" on the end before his parents or grandparents moved to America.

I have no idea why William Phelps (who is M. William Phelps?) believes that the author of the poem "cannot hide his deep-seated Russian roots." First of all, what are "deep-seated Russian roots" anyways? I assume he means the author has Russian heritage, but what a strange way to express that. But what reasons does he give for believing the author has Russian roots? Seems a strange conclusion to come to, as there is nothing in the poem that is distinctly Russian. I have read a lot of Russian literature — some of my favourite authors are Russian — and I'm not sure I see anything thematic or stylistic that screams: deep-seated Russian roots! 
So does Phelps support this claim with evidence? 

How did you come to believe that the offender's current surname may include "sky" or "owsky" before his parents or grandparents moved to America? First of all, do you mean his current surname includes "sky" or "owsky" or that his parents' grandparents' surname included it before they moved to America? Because the two are mutually exclusive: either his current surname has those suffixes or his parents/grandparents' surname had those suffixes before they moved to America. If the former, what makes you think that? Let's just assume for a moment that the offender has Russian heritage — and I don't know what evidence there is for that position. There are many, many Russian surnames that don't have those suffixes. Are you thinking of a specific POI? Second, what makes you think that the offender has Russian roots and that his parents or grandparents immigrated to America from Russia? What evidence is there of that? Also, was it his parents or grandparents that immigrated? Bit of a difference there, and this seems like pure speculation without any evidence to support it. 

I don't mean to criticize your post, but maybe you can help me understand the origin and evidence behind your theory.

peace,

cityofchill

[cityofchill]

Aug 13, 2017 16:31:33 GMT @malboner said:

Aug 13, 2017 13:41:23 GMT cityofchill said:

I have no idea why William Phelps (who is M. William Phelps?) believes that the author of the poem "cannot hide his deep-seated Russian roots." First of all, what are "deep-seated Russian roots" anyways? I assume he means the author has Russian heritage, but what a strange way to express that. But what reasons does he give for believing the author has Russian roots? Seems a strange conclusion to come to, as there is nothing in the poem that is distinctly Russian. I have read a lot of Russian literature — some of my favourite authors are Russian — and I'm not sure I see anything thematic or stylistic that screams: deep-seated Russian roots! 
So does Phelps support this claim with evidence? 

How did you come to believe that the offender's current surname may include "sky" or "owsky" before his parents or grandparents moved to America? First of all, do you mean his current surname includes "sky" or "owsky" or that his parents' grandparents' surname included it before they moved to America? Because the two are mutually exclusive: either his current surname has those suffixes or his parents/grandparents' surname had those suffixes before they moved to America. If the former, what makes you think that? Let's just assume for a moment that the offender has Russian heritage — and I don't know what evidence there is for that position. There are many, many Russian surnames that don't have those suffixes. Are you thinking of a specific POI? Second, what makes you think that the offender has Russian roots and that his parents or grandparents immigrated to America from Russia? What evidence is there of that? Also, was it his parents or grandparents that immigrated? Bit of a difference there, and this seems like pure speculation without any evidence to support it. 

I don't mean to criticize your post, but maybe you can help me understand the origin and evidence behind your theory.

peace,

cityofchill

M. William Phelps hosted the 2014 episode of 'Dark Minds' about the ONS. Since that time, he has continued to work with the ONS detectives. I sent him an email about Russia but his reply did not clarify his statement.

Ah, thanks for reminding me about who Phelps is. I'll have to rewatch that and see what he says about the EAR being of Russian heritage and what his reasons are. Thanks for the follow up!

[cityofchill]

Aug 13, 2017 16:31:33 GMT @malboner said:

Aug 13, 2017 13:41:23 GMT cityofchill said:

I have no idea why William Phelps (who is M. William Phelps?) believes that the author of the poem "cannot hide his deep-seated Russian roots." First of all, what are "deep-seated Russian roots" anyways? I assume he means the author has Russian heritage, but what a strange way to express that. But what reasons does he give for believing the author has Russian roots? Seems a strange conclusion to come to, as there is nothing in the poem that is distinctly Russian. I have read a lot of Russian literature — some of my favourite authors are Russian — and I'm not sure I see anything thematic or stylistic that screams: deep-seated Russian roots! 
So does Phelps support this claim with evidence? 

How did you come to believe that the offender's current surname may include "sky" or "owsky" before his parents or grandparents moved to America? First of all, do you mean his current surname includes "sky" or "owsky" or that his parents' grandparents' surname included it before they moved to America? Because the two are mutually exclusive: either his current surname has those suffixes or his parents/grandparents' surname had those suffixes before they moved to America. If the former, what makes you think that? Let's just assume for a moment that the offender has Russian heritage — and I don't know what evidence there is for that position. There are many, many Russian surnames that don't have those suffixes. Are you thinking of a specific POI? Second, what makes you think that the offender has Russian roots and that his parents or grandparents immigrated to America from Russia? What evidence is there of that? Also, was it his parents or grandparents that immigrated? Bit of a difference there, and this seems like pure speculation without any evidence to support it. 

I don't mean to criticize your post, but maybe you can help me understand the origin and evidence behind your theory.

peace,

cityofchill

M. William Phelps hosted the 2014 episode of 'Dark Minds' about the ONS. Since that time, he has continued to work with the ONS detectives. I sent him an email about Russia but his reply did not clarify his statement.

I just went back and re-watched the Dark Minds episode on the ONS. What Mr. Phelps says about EC is, imo, utter nonsense that betrays his ignorance about something he speaks about with great confidence. He says nothing about EAR/ONS having Russian roots, or anything about a 'sky' or 'owsky' suffix in his name. He does say that the poem speaks of one who is highly educated or was able to pretend to be highly educated (I think our analysis of the poem across multiple threads has demonstrated that isn't true. While the author did know more about poetry than your average person and seems to have read and written it, maybe even studied it in a survey-type course at a community workshop or community college setting, he shows no mastery of poetic form or the figurative language of poetry). Phelps says that the "odd turns of phrase" and certain words (he doesn't say which ones) "sound very British to me", and that EC has "roots in English literature." Huh? I'm not even going to get into just how silly, superficial, and ignorant these "insights" are. He goes on to say, "one thing that this poem tells me, that I believe 100%, that that [sic] this guy has European roots, because you can't hide who you are." I don't even know what to say in response to that nonsense. 

So he says that EC points to someone with deep European Roots. Not Russian roots. Why would he make such unsupported assumptions? Presumably because he knows nothing about poetry or literature and thinks anything that sounds "poetic" must be British (notice the voice actor in the show who reads a few lines of the poem employs an almost Elizabethan-style British enunciation). Does Mr. Phelps not know that many of the greatest poets of the last 200 years are American? Or is his understanding of literature so shallow that, for him, poetry = British = deep European roots? I don't know, but his statement about European roots based on the diction of EC isn't even speculation. It's just plain ignorance masquerading as insight. He loses a lot of credibility as a researcher and investigative reporter for making such an obvious blunder. A phone call to a high school English teacher would have been enough to disabuse him of any notion that this poem points to European roots or that a trip to the library could make the author "look" highly educated. Maybe Mr. Phelps should have a made a couple trips to the library himself before making such an authoritative statement about something he is obviously clueless about. It makes me question his overall credibility as an investigator and critical thinker. 

[weiss]

Is there really anything conclusive that ties "excitement's crave" to the actual killer? However wrote it was a wanker and a * poet. If it was really him I think we can determine that he was dork movie buff lost in a fantasy word.

[cityofchill]

Aug 14, 2017 2:01:59 GMT weiss said:

Is there really anything conclusive that ties "excitement's crave" to the actual killer? However wrote it was a wanker and a * poet. If it was really him I think we can determine that he was dork movie buff lost in a fantasy word.

Depends on what you mean by 'conclusive.' If he is the author, the poem tells us quite a lot about him, even if he meant to muddy the waters with it. For me, one of the strongest links to the perpetrator is the reference to the "mafia lord's wife." I haven't gotten to that stanza yet. I'm working on my analysis for the fourth stanza at the moment. There is other circumstantial evidence that suggests the poem was written by EAR, but my goal at this point isn't to decide the degree of probability that the poem was written by the EAR based on exhibit A, B, C, etc.

In Sacramento, all the crimes are linked by circumstantial evidence. If 'conclusive' means DNA, then that doesn't exist for any of the Sacramento attacks. If 'conclusive' means some indication that the writer had some knowledge of the crimes that the public wouldn't have at the time it was written, then I think the reference to the "mafia lord's wife" is pretty interesting. 

I've laid out aspects of the poem that I think point towards it being written by EAR. If what you glean from the poem is that he is a wanker and a * poet, a dork and movie buff lost in a fantasy world...sure. He may have been all those things. But the poem says quite a bit more. For example, he may not have been the greatest poet, but how many people do you know that can write a double sonnet in passable iambic tetrameter with almost perfect abab cdcd end rhymes all the way through? I don't personally know anyone who can except maybe me, lol. The author was not a good writer in the sense that he had no ability to make use of figurative language and evoke any profound thoughts or feelings with his work, but what would you expect of EAR? I'm guessing the man didn't have crazy emotional and intellectual depth. He did have depths of another sort, and those...I can only imagine what those must be. But he did have the ability to write a fairly archaic and formal type of poem, and followed all the conventions! That is sooooo funny to me because, whether or not the author is even aware of it, the poetic form acts almost as a meta commentary on the theme that is central to the poem...conventions! It is a preposterously enticing puzzle. Hence, my willingness to go down the rabbit hole with this thing. There is a lot there, but it's painstaking and time-consuming to try and study such a strange poem. That's why I haven't been able to finish the analysis faster. It's tiresome and I am a busy person. But I believe it's worth it and if it does anything to help us understand how the perp thinks, then it's worth it, imo. 

[weiss]

Nice analysis. I think if the poem was written by him there is something to be gained from dissecting it. As you and others have pointed out this is how the Unabomber was caught. The perps brother recognized the writing style and talking points. I am curious as to what is known about the poem that makes LE and others feel that it was likely written by him. I look forward to hearing more here and will do more research on it. My insults about him being a wanker and * poet were by no means a criticism of your attempts to analyze the poem. I just feel who ever wrote this poem was a completely intolerable shitheel. If it was the EAR that description would fit him.

[cityofchill]

Aug 26, 2017 0:09:44 GMT weiss said:

Nice analysis. I think if the poem was written by him there is something to be gained from dissecting it. As you and others have pointed out this is how the Unabomber was caught. The perps brother recognized the writing style and talking points. I am curious as to what is known about the poem that makes LE and others feel that it was likely written by him. I look forward to hearing more here and will do more research on it. My insults about him being a wanker and * poet were by no means a criticism of your attempts to analyze the poem. I just feel who ever wrote this poem was a completely intolerable shitheel. If it was the EAR that description would fit him.

I absolutely agree — the author of EC would likely not be someone I'd want to have a beer with, EAR or not — and I never thought your criticism of the poem was directed at me or my work on it. I would also like to know more about the poem's provenance. 

[weiss]

I did read somewhere last night that police analyzed the type and determined it was from a typewriter model that was identical to one that had recently been stolen by the EAR during an attack. That was interesting.

[portofleith]

Jul 31, 2017 16:09:48 GMT cityofchill said:

Jul 31, 2017 0:41:05 GMT albion said:

I am curious how many people were aware of Frances Marion, or the poem inspiration, prior to reading about this case.

I have a few more questions about the title of the poem. I am wondering if the poem that people think inspired the "excitement's Crave" title is very popular in academia. Is it something that would be taught or referenced? I am hoping to contrast that with Francis Marion's reputation and exploits as a guerilla fighter in the Revolutionary War. His tactics would seem to be something studied about, if not by all sectors of society, at least by students of the military arts.

And yet he also had a TV series based on his life from 59 to 61. Would they have mentioned the poem reference in it? I dont know if the show went into reruns after those years, but is it safe to say, that if earons was introduced to Frances Marion through the TV show that might narrow down his age somewhat?

In terms of how earons came by the title, I seem to think running across it because of his love for poetry to be the least likely. And if it was from the TV show, could that be one of his biggest inspirations? To be interested enough in Frances Marion to be able to use this title when he decides to write a poem about his own crimes, seems to mean it was highly influential. But I dont think that was the extent of it. He also goes on to mention other violent guerilla type criminals. I dont think people would think of Son of Sam as a legitimate guerilla type fighter, but other than not having any political leanings, he did have an effect on society.

I am curious too about the Revolutionary Was and the extent that the US and Britain did use proxies and employed mercenaries. "Accepting work to perform, with promise for more." Regular pay with the promise of plunder? Plunder is such a dated word. I feel like a pirate just writing. If I were to be writing a serious poem, I think I might go to the thesaurus and find another word or phrase that I could replace it with.

So if Marion did influence earons, could it have been enough of an influence to make him want to join the military? And one would hope that he would have washed out of the service because he was a nutjob. But then how would he have known to refer to Col Boyd and his classified materials? If we are talking pre-1980, who would have that combination of data running around their defective brains?

Those are good questions, albion. I tried to address the title and gave a tertiary comparison of EC to 'Marion,' but never really finished. I've planned to come back to both the title and 'Marion,' and finish what I started, but I wanted to get through the remaining stanzas first. 

I do have some ideas in response to your questions, but I want to think a little more before I write anything. Thank-you for your continued contributins to the thread and for keeping us all thinking about the many dimensions of the poem. 

I imagine every child who grew up when EAR was also a child watched Disney on Sunday nights and most were well aware of who Francis Marion was.

youtu.be/ADesK3Wa_D0

[cityofchill]

Aug 26, 2017 20:01:59 GMT weiss said:

I did read somewhere last night that police analyzed the type and determined it was from a typewriter model that was identical to one that had recently been stolen by the EAR during an attack. That was interesting.

Yes, I've heard this as well. I'm wondering if someone can confirm it. There are other members who know a lot more about the provenance of the poem than I do. There is quite a bit about it in the original 'Excitement's Crave' thread, and I've tried to avoid getting too entangled in the debate over its authenticity here — not because I don't think it's interesting or important, but because I'm proceeding on the assumption that the poem was written by EAR and stoking the debate about authenticity could hijack the thread, when the other EC thread is better suited, imo, to debate these questions. Perhaps someone can start a thread that aims to present the evidence for and against the poem being authentic, and we can debate the issue within that thread. I think it could be a very valuable resource for all of us who want to better understand the origins of the poem.  

That's not to say I want to keep those questions out of this thread. On the contrary, I would be interested to read a critique of my own analysis and the reasons I have listed so far for believing that EAR was the author. But I feel the facts about provenance and authenticity are beyond the scope of this thread and fit better in the other EC thread, or in a dedicated thread. 

I would really like to know more about the facts behind the poem, the conjecture, the circumstantial evidence that ties it to EAR, and to debate the likelihood of authenticity based on that evidence. It would be great to have all the evidence for and against authorship available in one place. So to those members who know a lot about the origin of the poem and details like the typewriter and why LE may or may not believe it's legit, it would be great if you could start a thread. If not, maybe I will start one and hope that those members who are knowledgeable about the topic will post information there. 

[oldguy]

Apr 28, 2014 7:30:57 GMT Drifter said:

... interesting story, armchair, about the lady with the cane.

That's an incident that would be hard to forget in one's life, and it probably will come back to you, every time you stand in some line.

Drifter

Not as dramatic but.....as a field rep for SSA I was tasked  to do a series of seminars with financial advisor (before the agency figured it was tantamount to endorsing an advisor). Over a period of months he was asked  numerous times by audience if he could  stay after and answer in-depth questions.

Each time he explained he'd had a "death in the family" and had to run to the service and should not even have come to the seminar but he thinks so highly of their (fill in the blank-- church, community group, lodge) he just had to make an appearance and help out. Of course the requestor would back down and express their heartfelt appreciation for his dedication.....