So..What Killed the Maggiores?

[oldguy]

Yes a .38 revolver. 

But unlike the Offerman-manning murders in Santa Barbara County, we do not know the ammunition used. As I posted in "EAR Super Vel and Offerman Manning" the good doctors were killed with Super Vel .38 hollow points: a boutique round made by a small specialty manufacturer and sold by contract to LE agencies.

I have searched and asked here as well as on the internet what bullets were recovered in the Maggiore shooting. No result anywhere. It seems the information was not released.

1. So...What were the issued/allowed duty load(s) of the Sacramento PD and SO in 1977-78? Many departments issue or allow only one load, some two or more. What were they?

2. Could the Maggiores have been killed with Super Vel? Was that on the Sac LE lists? (It was for example, an issue load of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.)

3. Or was it a different load-but also one used by those agencies? In either case, no public information officer would want to release that.  

It appears that one or more wounds were through-and-through. Possible with a .38 hollow point, but more likely with a metal case (FMJ) ammo. Also, a round that entered a nearby house, I have read, was never recovered. Really buried itself. Common with FMJ ammo less so with a hollow point.

4. So, I wonder...could the bullets have been 130 grain metal case?

Why would that be sensitive information?

Because M41 FMJ 130 grain was one of two issue loads of the Air Force Security Police. The other was the PGU-12/B.  Both .38 caliber. PGU-12/B, also a 130 brain FMJ,  was seated much deeper in the case than M41 ball and crimped heavily. Seating it deep vastly increased chamber pressures ,about 50% above M41, and consequently bullet velocity. High velocity FMJ penetrates very deeply, in flesh or building material. Recovered bullets would reflect the different seating and crimping. 

If generic 130 grain ball, it could be M41 or  a commercially available ammunition. If PGU-12B, it was available ONLY to USAF Security Police for whom it was manufactured. In 1978, it would have been very newly issued.

Any retired LE here that could answer #1 above?

Thanks for any informative responses...

[longstreet]

Apr 17, 2018 13:51:58 GMT oldguy said:

Yes a .38 revolver. 

But unlike the Offerman-manning murders in Santa Barbara County, we do not know the ammunition used. As I posted in "EAR Super Vel and Offerman Manning" the good doctors were killed with Super Vel .38 hollow points: a boutique round made by a small specialty manufacturer and sold by contract to LE agencies.

I have searched and asked here as well as on the internet what bullets were recovered in the Maggiore shooting. No result anywhere. It seems the information was not released.

1. So...What were the issued/allowed duty load(s) of the Sacramento PD and SO in 1977-78? Many departments issue or allow only one load, some two or more. What were they?

2. Could the Maggiores have been killed with Super Vel? Was that on the Sac LE lists? (It was for example, an issue load of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.)

3. Or was it a different load-but also one used by those agencies? In either case, no public information officer would want to release that.  

It appears that one or more wounds were through-and-through. Possible with a .38 hollow point, but more likely with a metal case (FMJ) ammo. Also, a round that entered a nearby house, I have read, was never recovered. Really buried itself. Common with FMJ ammo less so with a hollow point.

4. So, I wonder...could the bullets have been 130 grain metal case?

Why would that be sensitive information?

Because M41 FMJ 130 grain was one of two issue loads of the Air Force Security Police. The other was the PGU-12/B.  Both .38 caliber. PGU-12/B, also a 130 brain FMJ,  was seated much deeper in the case than M41 ball and crimped heavily. Seating it deep vastly increased chamber pressures ,about 50% above M41, and consequently bullet velocity. High velocity FMJ penetrates very deeply, in flesh or building material. Recovered bullets would reflect the different seating and crimping. 

If generic 130 grain ball, it could be M41 or  a commercially available ammunition. If PGU-12B, it was available ONLY to USAF Security Police for whom it was manufactured. In 1978, it would have been very newly issued.

Any retired LE here that could answer #1 above?

Thanks for any informative responses...

I don't know, but I've always found it strange that if EAR killed the couple to "shut them up" and make sure they didn't identify him to someone, he didn't seem to do a thorough job.

What I mean is, I think he left without knowing if Brian was actually dead. How did he know it was a fatal wound? Why not follow it up with a fatal shot?

Was the wound obviously fatal? Otherwise, EAR got lucky that Brian didn't survive.

This makes me think that they didn't know his name personally. Either Katie saw him and said that's my stalker, or Brian saw him doing something that screamed EAR and tried to confront him. Meaning, the murders were to escape, not to silence them from revealing his name.

Sorry for sidetracking your thread.

[oldguy]

Not sidetracking .... And folks don't post much on ballistics threads anyway.

I do not believe in any complicated conspiracy theories at all. Access to service/LE ammunition is indicative of the shooter's professional or familial connections-nothing more. But if the ammunition shows a connection-that is big.

What happened? Most likely some combination of Thumper running into a stranger's back yard, yapping at the prowler and Maggiores running behind him and/or Katie saying "Christ he's following me in the neighborhood now.!" Brian went into cop mode.

Brian, the protective husband and aggressive cop confronted him with a command voice. What followed is an excellent example of why many departments, including the largest, NYPD, require officers to carry off duty...

Did they know the shooter? No. If they had the human reaction would be something like" BOBBY! WHAT THE * ARE YOU DOING?" No one heard that or anything like that.

No it was not a hit job from drug runners. As I once posted, being reduced to chasing your quarry through residential back yards would get you kicked out of the hit man's union.

No, Brian was not doing sensitive undercover work. If he were he would not install his bride in an apartment a couple blocks from Mather. He was an administrative specialist. No that was not a cover for super secret sleuth work.

If Brian were a super sleuth guy he would not have used the last 20 seconds of oxygenated brain left to him to run away. (Twenty second is what you get if a round eviscerates your heart-it is a minimal estimate. A chest hit does not mean that happened.) His training would've kicked in and he would have sought to disarm EAR. Could this have been successful? Sure, a housewife disarmed him for God's sake.

Why did EAR shoot? Because large athletic and strong Brian was a real threat and EAR reacted that way to threats, Ask Rodney Miller.

Did he shoot to execute? Maybe. He shot to inflict as much harm as possible but not necessarily to execute.

Why didn't he shoot more? Well he fired 5 or 6 rounds meaning he ran his revolver dry. EAR was not known to ever reload, nor could he reload a revolver in that chaos. (Try it.)

Nor was he ever known to carry a second gun.

I think the shooting started as his method of tactical control but changed to simple blood lust. EAR liked it. He probably masturbated to the memory of the terror in Katie's eyes.

[sylliec]

Apr 17, 2018 15:39:05 GMT longstreet said:

Apr 17, 2018 13:51:58 GMT oldguy said:

Yes a .38 revolver. 

But unlike the Offerman-manning murders in Santa Barbara County, we do not know the ammunition used. As I posted in "EAR Super Vel and Offerman Manning" the good doctors were killed with Super Vel .38 hollow points: a boutique round made by a small specialty manufacturer and sold by contract to LE agencies.

I have searched and asked here as well as on the internet what bullets were recovered in the Maggiore shooting. No result anywhere. It seems the information was not released.

1. So...What were the issued/allowed duty load(s) of the Sacramento PD and SO in 1977-78? Many departments issue or allow only one load, some two or more. What were they?

2. Could the Maggiores have been killed with Super Vel? Was that on the Sac LE lists? (It was for example, an issue load of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.)

3. Or was it a different load-but also one used by those agencies? In either case, no public information officer would want to release that.  

It appears that one or more wounds were through-and-through. Possible with a .38 hollow point, but more likely with a metal case (FMJ) ammo. Also, a round that entered a nearby house, I have read, was never recovered. Really buried itself. Common with FMJ ammo less so with a hollow point.

4. So, I wonder...could the bullets have been 130 grain metal case?

Why would that be sensitive information?

Because M41 FMJ 130 grain was one of two issue loads of the Air Force Security Police. The other was the PGU-12/B.  Both .38 caliber. PGU-12/B, also a 130 brain FMJ,  was seated much deeper in the case than M41 ball and crimped heavily. Seating it deep vastly increased chamber pressures ,about 50% above M41, and consequently bullet velocity. High velocity FMJ penetrates very deeply, in flesh or building material. Recovered bullets would reflect the different seating and crimping. 

If generic 130 grain ball, it could be M41 or  a commercially available ammunition. If PGU-12B, it was available ONLY to USAF Security Police for whom it was manufactured. In 1978, it would have been very newly issued.

Any retired LE here that could answer #1 above?

Thanks for any informative responses...

I don't know, but I've always found it strange that if EAR killed the couple to "shut them up" and make sure they didn't identify him to someone, he didn't seem to do a thorough job.

What I mean is, I think he left without knowing if Brian was actually dead. How did he know it was a fatal wound? Why not follow it up with a fatal shot?

Was the wound obviously fatal? Otherwise, EAR got lucky that Brian didn't survive.

This makes me think that they didn't know his name personally. Either Katie saw him and said that's my stalker, or Brian saw him doing something that screamed EAR and tried to confront him. Meaning, the murders were to escape, not to silence them from revealing his name.

Sorry for sidetracking your thread.

But why did EAR chase down Katie? It dors not make sense unless she recognized him.

[oldguy]

Sylliec said.....But why did EAR chase down Katie? It dors not make sense unless she recognized him.




oldguy said.....I think the shooting started as his method of tactical control but changed to simple blood lust. EAR liked it. He probably masturbated to the memory of the terror in Katie's eyes.

[chainsawjames]

This needs to be discussed. I’ve never heard of any matching ballistic evidence. Great post.

[attxlatt121]

Your ballistics threads are very interesting. Keep up the good work. I hope you get the answer to your question

[longstreet]

Apr 17, 2018 21:15:06 GMT sylliec said:

Apr 17, 2018 15:39:05 GMT longstreet said:

I don't know, but I've always found it strange that if EAR killed the couple to "shut them up" and make sure they didn't identify him to someone, he didn't seem to do a thorough job.

What I mean is, I think he left without knowing if Brian was actually dead. How did he know it was a fatal wound? Why not follow it up with a fatal shot?

Was the wound obviously fatal? Otherwise, EAR got lucky that Brian didn't survive.

This makes me think that they didn't know his name personally. Either Katie saw him and said that's my stalker, or Brian saw him doing something that screamed EAR and tried to confront him. Meaning, the murders were to escape, not to silence them from revealing his name.

Sorry for sidetracking your thread.

But why did EAR chase down Katie? It dors not make sense unless she recognized him.

Good point. Maybe he just didn't want someone who got a good look at his face to get away. Maybe he got carried away in the heat of the moment.

Maybe he was afraid of her telling the police "the guy that shot Brian was my stalker. I don't know his name, but here is all the info I have."

[monarch]

If I'm mistaken I apologize, but after he shoots both Brian and Katie and jumps the fence only to have the
teenager staring at him with his mask completely off - what gives? He kills the Maggiores because they see him
without the mask or know him somehow, but a young man sees him barefaced, merely feet away and EAR(?) allows HIM
to live and he just runs away? That behavior doesn't make sense to me.

[pandajack]

If he had emptied his revolver fleeing was the quickest and easiest solution to being spotted by the kid. If people are responding to the noise of the shooting it would be too risky to hang around trying to kill someone else without a weapon.

[spodey]

Theory:     After the shootings of Brian and Katie I think he was out of ammo.  If he was using a 6 cylinder piece, I bet EAR only had 4 rounds in the chamber.  He might have left 2 empty because:

1.  He had a history of unloading victim's personal weapons (during a pre-attack breakin) in case victim(s) sought to use a firearm of theirs against him (part of his "game" some think).

2.  If so, and if he did the Maggiore murders, he may have unloaded 2 rounds from his own 6-cylinder weapon in advance of that encounter.  If a victim took the pistol away from EAR, pointed it at EAR and pulled the trigger, the victim would hear a "click" and EAR could possibly take back the pistol in the surprise of the victim. 

3.  The second bullet would be missing from the chamber for EAR's own safety perhaps if it was dropped accidentally during stalking, wrestling of a victim.

EAR might have had a defensive plan if his own weapon was taken from him...along with the accidental discharge plan....thus resulting in 2 rounds missing from a 6 cylinder pistol and thus being out of ammo when so near to the teenager near the scene of the Maggiore murders..

[sanfranmaru]

First post - long time lurker here. For all I know this has been discussed previously ad nauseam, so forgive me.

Question:  What's up with the backyard where the Maggiores were killed?  What are the theories, or is there a general consensus on what brought them their?  Did they flee there?  Did Brian witness the perpetrator there or pursue him there?  If so, why would Katie also follow him there, especially if it appeared to be her stalker?  Did their dog run back there?  Was there a confrontation where EAR coerced/forced them there to get off the street and avoid witnesses?  What's the most plausible explanation?

I find it perplexing.  I feel that if anyone were attempting to flee, they would simply take off down the street screaming bloody murder as opposed to running through a broken fence into a backyard.  I feel like nobody, other than EAR, should have been in somebody's backyard, so the circumstances of how in the world Brian/Katie wound up there must be quite unique.  My guess is that somehow the circumstances involved Brian or Katie recognizing EAR.  I've always been inclined to think that it was Brian (or both) as opposed to just Katie seeing her stalker.  Is there anything that could lead one to believe that they simply recognized one of their neighbors.

I'm going to cut this short before I start rambling.  There's plenty of different angles to analyze this murder, but the fact that they somehow wound up in (possibly random) backyard is something that I just can't wrap my brain around.  Would really love to hear the various thoughts on this matter.

[oldguy]

Apr 18, 2018 3:20:53 GMT spodey said:

Theory:     After the shootings of Brian and Katie I think he was out of ammo.  If he was using a 6 cylinder piece, I bet EAR only had 4 rounds in the chamber.  He might have left 2 empty because:

1.  He had a history of unloading victim's personal weapons (during a pre-attack breakin) in case victim(s) sought to use a firearm of theirs against him (part of his "game" some think).

2.  If so, and if he did the Maggiore murders, he may have unloaded 2 rounds from his own 6-cylinder weapon in advance of that encounter.  If a victim took the pistol away from EAR, pointed it at EAR and pulled the trigger, the victim would hear a "click" and EAR could possibly take back the pistol in the surprise of the victim. 

3.  The second bullet would be missing from the chamber for EAR's own safety perhaps if it was dropped accidentally during stalking, wrestling of a victim.

EAR might have had a defensive plan if his own weapon was taken from him...along with the accidental discharge plan....thus resulting in 2 rounds missing from a 6 cylinder pistol and thus being out of ammo when so near to the teenager near the scene of the Maggiore murders..

1. He fired more than 4 rounds..at least 5. Two into Brian, one into Katie, at least one into a house perhaps 2. And at least one fired at Brian and missing as they ran, apparently across the yard, not toward a house. At least that is what I understand.

2. As for leaving a chamber empty in event of a dropped weapon...that would be true for all single action revolvers made before 1973. Double action revolvers have incorporated hammer blocks as a drop safety since before WW2. By 1973,  the transfer bar drop safety  was also becoming common. (Not used by S&W.) EAR used smaller framed double action revolvers.

3.EAR was not likely to have been an LEO but he knew a lot about handguns-and their safe handling. He would have used a modern revolver, one whose metallurgy could contain the high chamber pressures of Super Vel.

4 EAR frequently used handguns w/o a drop safety and a loaded chamber. The 1911 pattern semi autos he started using when he began attacking couples had only a half cock notch and could discharge if  dropped. Thousands of 1911 pattern semi-autos are currently manufactured w/o a drop safety  Called a firing pin safety.)

5. He was way too tactically aware to download his weapon.

Now, please do not try dropping firearms, even new ones. Not a good idea.

[qmanfan]

Apr 17, 2018 13:51:58 GMT oldguy said:

Yes a .38 revolver. 

But unlike the Offerman-manning murders in Santa Barbara County, we do not know the ammunition used. As I posted in "EAR Super Vel and Offerman Manning" the good doctors were killed with Super Vel .38 hollow points: a boutique round made by a small specialty manufacturer and sold by contract to LE agencies.

I have searched and asked here as well as on the internet what bullets were recovered in the Maggiore shooting. No result anywhere. It seems the information was not released.

1. So...What were the issued/allowed duty load(s) of the Sacramento PD and SO in 1977-78? Many departments issue or allow only one load, some two or more. What were they?

2. Could the Maggiores have been killed with Super Vel? Was that on the Sac LE lists? (It was for example, an issue load of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.)

3. Or was it a different load-but also one used by those agencies? In either case, no public information officer would want to release that.  

It appears that one or more wounds were through-and-through. Possible with a .38 hollow point, but more likely with a metal case (FMJ) ammo. Also, a round that entered a nearby house, I have read, was never recovered. Really buried itself. Common with FMJ ammo less so with a hollow point.

4. So, I wonder...could the bullets have been 130 grain metal case?

Why would that be sensitive information?

Because M41 FMJ 130 grain was one of two issue loads of the Air Force Security Police. The other was the PGU-12/B.  Both .38 caliber. PGU-12/B, also a 130 brain FMJ,  was seated much deeper in the case than M41 ball and crimped heavily. Seating it deep vastly increased chamber pressures ,about 50% above M41, and consequently bullet velocity. High velocity FMJ penetrates very deeply, in flesh or building material. Recovered bullets would reflect the different seating and crimping. 

If generic 130 grain ball, it could be M41 or  a commercially available ammunition. If PGU-12B, it was available ONLY to USAF Security Police for whom it was manufactured. In 1978, it would have been very newly issued.

Any retired LE here that could answer #1 above?

Thanks for any informative responses...

Hi oldguy, I love your posts.  Are you saying the bullets that killed the Offermans were only issued to LE and the USAF?  If so, how would a non LEO attain them?  EARONS being as careful as he is, I would think if he was LEO he would use generic bullets that couldn't be traced to such a minority.  Maybe he thought he wouldn't have to use his weapon.  Maybe he didn't know they were contracted to only these specialty groups.  Maybe he did know, and used them ammo as a red herring.  Always more questions than answers with this guy.  

[oldguy]

Apr 19, 2018 14:24:02 GMT qmanfan said:

Apr 17, 2018 13:51:58 GMT oldguy said:

Yes a .38 revolver. 

But unlike the Offerman-manning murders in Santa Barbara County, we do not know the ammunition used. As I posted in "EAR Super Vel and Offerman Manning" the good doctors were killed with Super Vel .38 hollow points: a boutique round made by a small specialty manufacturer and sold by contract to LE agencies.

I have searched and asked here as well as on the internet what bullets were recovered in the Maggiore shooting. No result anywhere. It seems the information was not released.

1. So...What were the issued/allowed duty load(s) of the Sacramento PD and SO in 1977-78? Many departments issue or allow only one load, some two or more. What were they?

2. Could the Maggiores have been killed with Super Vel? Was that on the Sac LE lists? (It was for example, an issue load of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.)

3. Or was it a different load-but also one used by those agencies? In either case, no public information officer would want to release that.  

It appears that one or more wounds were through-and-through. Possible with a .38 hollow point, but more likely with a metal case (FMJ) ammo. Also, a round that entered a nearby house, I have read, was never recovered. Really buried itself. Common with FMJ ammo less so with a hollow point.

4. So, I wonder...could the bullets have been 130 grain metal case?

Why would that be sensitive information?

Because M41 FMJ 130 grain was one of two issue loads of the Air Force Security Police. The other was the PGU-12/B.  Both .38 caliber. PGU-12/B, also a 130 brain FMJ,  was seated much deeper in the case than M41 ball and crimped heavily. Seating it deep vastly increased chamber pressures ,about 50% above M41, and consequently bullet velocity. High velocity FMJ penetrates very deeply, in flesh or building material. Recovered bullets would reflect the different seating and crimping. 

If generic 130 grain ball, it could be M41 or  a commercially available ammunition. If PGU-12B, it was available ONLY to USAF Security Police for whom it was manufactured. In 1978, it would have been very newly issued.

Any retired LE here that could answer #1 above?

Thanks for any informative responses...

Hi oldguy, I love your posts.  Are you saying the bullets that killed the Offermans were only issued to LE and the USAF?  If so, how would a non LEO attain them?  EARONS being as careful as he is, I would think if he was LEO he would use generic bullets that couldn't be traced to such a minority.  Maybe he thought he wouldn't have to use his weapon.  Maybe he didn't know they were contracted to only these specialty groups.  Maybe he did know, and used them ammo as a red herring.  Always more questions than answers with this guy.  

No. Offerman/Manning were killed with Super Vel .38 hollow points. We know that. Super Vel was made for LE only under agency contract.  Some leaked into the civilian market after Super Vel's bankruptcy in 1975. It was rare, pricey and it's pedigree and attributes not general knowledge. BUT EAR had it.


USAF as a military component, used only FMJ ammo. We do not know the ammo used in the Maggiore shooting. If 130 grain FMJ (aka "ball" or "metal case") was used in Brian and Katies deaths that is a strong hint the shooter had some connection with USAF security police. If it was PGU 12/B... he had something USAF Security Police ONLY, in the entire world, possessed. Not Army, not Navy, not USMC, not LE, not civilians.

Which would be very meaningful.