Tenth Set

[Drifter]

Contra Costa County Con Artist

In the confirmed EAR attacks in Sacramento and the surrounding areas 27% were Saturdays.

In the confirmed EAR attacks in the Bay Area 54% were Saturdays.

In fact attacks #38,#40,#41,#42,#43, and #45 were all on Saturdays.

Reasons for attacking in the Bay Area

1. Neutralize Sac LE. Out of sight out of mind, they would devote fewer resources to capturing him.

2. Neutralize Bay Are LE. All their canvassing would be near pointless since he had no connections to these neighborhoods.

3. Convince whoever had suspicions on him in Sac that he had left town. He purposely spoke to the rape victims in the Bay Area to make thm think that he had been following them. Det Crompton believes it. I do not. This offender selected neighborhoods to attack in and would not risk having him or his vehicle seen in broad daylight.

4. After the Sac Union article in Feb 1978 linking him to possible crimes in Visalia he would be too cautious to live in a third separate geographic location as where he committed the crimes.

I believe that he commuted to the Bay Area from Sacramento. The extra commuting time would explain the 100% increase in Saturday attacks.

5. I believe the fact that he did not change MO probably indicates it was a ruse. He had no concerns of being a recent transplant from Sacramento becuase he wasn't. I have come to the conclusion that since EAR/ONS changed MO in So Cal he most likely did relocate down there. (This will please SOE.)
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
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Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
Conquistador, I think your theory is a possibility. Do you think he actually never left Sacramento and traveled down to Goleta, Ventura and Orange County but never actually moved?
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1329 Posts
I Don't Think
I don't think he lived where he offended except perhaps very early on. EAR knew enpugh about police procedure to avoid the obvious. He knew the cops would be going door to door in the victims neighborhoods. I think that when the canvassing etc. was taking place EAR was somewhere else. Blending in. And I still think there's a reason why he offended 15 times in the jurisdiction of the Sac Sheriffs.
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By f1guyus
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2 years ago
1265 Posts
Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

The possibility that the EAR was still living in Sacramento while traveling down to Santa Barbara, Ventura, and Orange counties to offend is out of the question. The only suchlike scenario that should be considered even remotely possible is that, if he never left Sacramento, there was a specific draw—either family or professional—the kept returning him to those areas in Southern CA. But even this is at the outer margins of possibility.

EAR felt a need to stage the Witthuhn scene to make it look like a burglary-gone-awry. Why?

Four years and eleven months elapsed between the penultimate known offense and the last known offense. Why?

The same dog was brought to two separate crime scenes, a half mile from each other, yet over a year and a half apart. Where did it come from? Whose dog was it? Why only those two scenes? The circumstances suggest that the dog was familiar with the perpetrator, and the dog was local to Goleta. Whom did he know in Goleta? And if he knew someone there, what kind of person would be oblivious (or worse, indifferent) to the parallels between their acquaintance/friend/relative's movements and multiple double homicides of a specific type?

I'm growing repetitive at this point, but: the murders of Ms. Witthuhn and Ms. Cruz were not recognizable as part of a series, and not recognizable as being connected to each other nor to anything else (though, if they'd occurred closer together in time, a link may have been made between the two). The EAR understood this. As with the early Sacramento crimes, he waited until each was alone: (a) when Witthuhn's husband was hospitalized overnight, and (b) when Cruz's mother was out of town, and her male companion had gone.

"In the early months, the sexual terrorist attacked women who were home alone, displaying an uncanny ability to find victims whose husbands were out of town for the night."

- The Modesto Bee, June 28, 1981

This recon was the EAR's "knack" at the very beginning, so I feel that it was no lucky accident that Witthuhn and Cruz happened to be alone. If the EAR wished to kill David along with Manuela, he'd have awaited that opportunity.

If the EAR had killed both Witthuhns, that event would have appeared on the radar of whatever parties were investigating or proposing a link among Goleta 1, Offerman/Manning, Lyman/Charlene Smith, and Keith/Patrice Harrington. Because EAR apparently wished to avert this connection being made with both the Cruz and Witthun murders, and both murders were a mile from each other in the same neighborhood, it's reasonable to then conclude that the EAR lived, worked, or had close ties to Irvine, and probably to Northwood. At the very least, Orange County.

And again, DNA profiling did not exist in 1986. The EAR likely would not have been aware of this advance until about 1990, when it really began to gain momentum. Into the 90s, as DNA profiling became standard, the EAR's pants must have slowly filled with liquishit, like they did in Danville. And those dams probably really broke about a decade ago. That's if he was still living. If he hadn't left Orange County by that point, I'd say there's a good chance that he did then, depending upon his family circumstances.

So, bottom line: as far as the EAR was concerned, at the time of perpetrating the Witthuhn and Cruz murders, those crimes would never be linked to any others.
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Edited by SpeakelOfEngrish, 2 years ago
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years ago
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Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

I'll again point out the following, with respect to Dennis Rader:
Rader murdered seven people (and caused irreversible damage an eighth) in four separate incidents from 1974 to 1977. Largely thanks to Rader's own anonymous correspondence, these crimes were connected and regarded as a series.
All of these crimes took place in Wichita proper.
Up to 2003, all articles, news reports, and material about the BTK case attributed only these seven homicides to the BTK. The official investigative body of data attributed only these seven murders to BTK.
In 2004, BTK resumed communicating. In his first communication, BTK took credit for an eighth murder previously not considered a BTK crime: that of Vicki Wegerle in 1986.
The manner in which BTK took credit for this crime left no doubt that he was responsible; subsequent DNA sampling confirmed this link.
Wegerle's murder occurred in the same general areas as the previous BTK crimes, and the M.O. was the same.
Two additional murders, that of Marine Hedge in 1985 and that of Dolores Davis in 1991, were also committed by BTK. BTK, however, neither alluded to nor took credit for these murders until he was already captured and identified as Dennis Rader.
The murders of Marine Hedge and Dolores Davis did not occur in the general area of the other BTK crimes. They occurred closer to Rader's home, in his own town of Park City. In fact, Marine Hedge lived four doors down from Rader.
The modus operandi used in Marine Hedge and Dolores Davis homicides was different than that of the other BTK murders. Rader made sure that these murders appeared nothing like known BTK murders. In both cases, he removed the victims from their homes and dumped them some at distance away, in rural areas. In every other BTK strike, including the murder of Vicki Wegerle, the perpetrator left the victims inside their homes.

Rader was his own undoing. Unlike the jurisdictions involved with the EAR/ONS cases, Sedgwick County, KS did not revisit the Wegerle, Hedge, and Davis cases to seek viable DNA. That DNA did exist, however, as it was found after his arrest and used in part to bolster the state's case against Rader.

If Orange County had likewise not sought DNA profiles from the Witthuhn and Cruz murders, and uploaded those profiles into CODIS, we'd never know that the EAR/ONS committed these two murders. And we'd mostly be thinking that he lived in Santa Barbara and either died, moved away, or went to prison some point soon after July 27, 1981.
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Edited by SpeakelOfEngrish, 2 years ago
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years ago
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Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
And I totally got away with using "liquishit" in a post.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years ago
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Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

SOE: "The murders of Marine Hedge and Dolores Davis did not occur in the general area of the other BTK crimes. They occurred closer to Rader's home, in his own town of Park City. In fact, Marine Hedge lived four doors down from Rader."




This is why I believe that EAR lived close to Janelle. Radar is not the only serial killer to begin killing close to his house after a prolonged absent. The closeness and time consuming killings are a process of human nature, especially after being on the killing lam.
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Edited by waterfrogger, 2 years ago
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By waterfrogger
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2 years ago
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Re: Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish

I'll again point out the following, with respect to Dennis Rader:
Rader murdered seven people (and caused irreversible damage an eighth) in four separate incidents from 1974 to 1977. Largely thanks to Rader's own anonymous correspondence, these crimes were connected and regarded as a series.
All of these crimes took place in Wichita proper.
Up to 2003, all articles, news reports, and material about the BTK case attributed only these seven homicides to the BTK. The official investigative body of data attributed only these seven murders to BTK.
In 2004, BTK resumed communicating. In his first communication, BTK took credit for an eighth murder previously not considered a BTK crime: that of Vicki Wegerle in 1986.
The manner in which BTK took credit for this crime left no doubt that he was responsible; subsequent DNA sampling confirmed this link.
Wegerle's murder occurred in the same general areas as the previous BTK crimes, and the M.O. was the same.
Two additional murders, that of Marine Hedge in 1985 and that of Dolores Davis in 1991, were also committed by BTK. BTK, however, neither alluded to nor took credit for these murders until he was already captured and identified as Dennis Rader.
The murders of Marine Hedge and Dolores Davis did not occur in the general area of the other BTK crimes. They occurred closer to Rader's home, in his own town of Park City. In fact, Marine Hedge lived four doors down from Rader.
The modus operandi used in Marine Hedge and Dolores Davis homicides was different than that of the other BTK murders. Rader made sure that these murders appeared nothing like known BTK murders. In both cases, he removed the victims from their homes and dumped them some at distance away, in rural areas. In every other BTK strike, including the murder of Vicki Wegerle, the perpetrator left the victims inside their homes.

Rader was his own undoing. Unlike the jurisdictions involved with the EAR/ONS cases, Sedgwick County, KS did not revisit the Wegerle, Hedge, and Davis cases to seek viable DNA. That DNA did exist, however, as it was found after his arrest and used in part to bolster the state's case against Rader.

If Orange County had likewise not sought DNA profiles from the Witthuhn and Cruz murders, and uploaded those profiles into CODIS, we'd never know that the EAR/ONS committed these two murders. And we'd mostly be thinking that he lived in Santa Barbara and either died, moved away, or went to prison some point soon after July 27, 1981.
An Interesting and well summarized argument ........I guess the moral of the story is that with offenders like EAR there are probably more skeletons in his closet so to speak, I would suspect maybe he did some crimes especially the period between 1981 and 1986 which have not been linked or may never be linked to him and also considering that Radr and EAR started their infamous activities at a broadly similar time maybe they are similar in age....... ; another thing is Rader offended into the early 90s which got me thinking maybe EAR also did stuff in the late 80s before he got wind of DNA , That 1990/91 phone call suggests our guy was out there in the early 90s at least hence maybe he did something that we dont yet know about I doubt he went from the brutal murder of Janelle to completely law abiding citizen
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By DanCartell
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2 years ago
683 Posts
Re: Contra Costa con artist

Your argument makes a lot of sense looking at the frequency of Saturday attacks and the areas involved; I would also agree that he probably lived in the Sacramento area when he hit as far afield as the bay area . it makes sense that he started offending elsewere after he whipped up Sacramento into a frenzy so as to give the impression that he was gone and was now some one elses problem. Its quite ironinc that this guy wanted to terrorise (Sacramento) and when he achieved this this inadvertantly led to so much heat it drove him away elsewere. Point number 4 and the publicity fom the Maggiore murders would also explain why he struck in various locations outside Sacramento - this would be the perfect way to get LE run around carrying out investigations all over the place diverting the heat away from Scaramento which suggests that Sacramento was his back yard so to speak. After Sacramento the guy seems to have learned not to soil in his back yard which could possibly explain the pattern of attacks afterwards in other jusridictions. As for whether he still lived in Sacramento when he hit further south in places like Goleta, Ventura and Irvine I would not be inclined to think so............
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By DanCartell
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2 years ago
683 Posts
Having put it that way..........

....point number 5 makes a lot of sense, brilliant summary and conclusion!

Do you know if the full text of the Sac Union article of Feb 1978 is availabe online?


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By DanCartell
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2 years ago
683 Posts
Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

I am from the camp that believes that EAR/ONS lived in Sacramento throughout the active years and likely still lives there. He may have resided for short periods in Southern Califotrnia while working, possibly on construction worksites, but his permanent residence was Sac.



I base this on the increased time between attacks the farther away from Sacrmanto they occured. I was not aware of the "Saturday angle", but that would correspond with the perp travelling to the crime scenes. While in Sacramento, he could strike anytime. When in other Northen California locales, he needed longer travel time and Saturdays were the most convient time to offend. Even more so with Southern California - the farther away, the longer the commute and the bigger gaps between crimes.


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By DougFrench
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2 years ago
79 Posts
Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
Also, once he got far enough away from home, he may have decided to take the leap to murder, what he may have fantasized about doing for a long time, and felt being far from home was worth the risk of carrying it out. Why Goleta, did he have business in Goleta or family. If business, then that would support the idea that he was far enough from any family connection to risk taking the leap of murdering. If family, that would tie in with the connection to the 3 toed dog and possibly using the dog to throw suspicion elsewhere, -- to Glasby. I personally think he at least knew of Glasby to have used a dog that had a "connection" to Glasby. That was pretty convenient. I vote he had family. In addition there is a real possibility that another crime in Goleta many years earlier, when he may have been a teen, is connected. Did he originate in Goleta? Did he come back on occassion to visit grandma and grandpa, or auntie and uncle and cousins? I suspect he did. I think he had to have had a connection to Glasby --Glasby was patient of Offerman AND Manning, Glasby beat up Offerman's janitor, Glasby had a connection to the 3-toed dog. If Glasby is not EAR/ONS and we know he isn't, EAR/ONS was VERY successful in making LE believe it was Glasby all these years. He had to have known Glasby in my opinion.
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
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Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

The greater length of time between attacks, during the "ONS" phase, is probably because the attacks entailed homicide. He'd not have been as prolific in Sac if he'd been killing his victims; otherwise, he'd have been apprehended rather quickly.

There should be little to no doubt that EAR resided in Southern CA. Multiple circumstances and data strongly support this.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years ago
1090 Posts
Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

I know that we disagree, but one other explaination for "upping the ante" to murder was precisely because it was more difficult to travel to SoCal from Sacramento and he wanted to get a "bigger bang for his buck" since he could not offend as often.



This issue is wxactly why I would like to see a new profile created since we now know that EAR was ONS - each previous profile was created with only half of the picture. Each profile theorizes that the perp resided in the general areas of the crimes and I wonder if now that we know that the two crime sprees were, in fact, one long spree, the profilers still believe that part of the profile.



Of course, there is always the possibility that I am completely wrong. I just toss this out for debate so others can chimne in with their opinions.
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By DougFrench
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2 years ago
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Re: Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
Posted By: DougFrench

I am from the camp that believes that EAR/ONS lived in Sacramento throughout the active years and likely still lives there. He may have resided for short periods in Southern Califotrnia while working, possibly on construction worksites, but his permanent residence was Sac.



I base this on the increased time between attacks the farther away from Sacrmanto they occured. I was not aware of the "Saturday angle", but that would correspond with the perp travelling to the crime scenes. While in Sacramento, he could strike anytime. When in other Northen California locales, he needed longer travel time and Saturdays were the most convient time to offend. Even more so with Southern California - the farther away, the longer the commute and the bigger gaps between crimes.


I believe this too. The only thing I do feel certain of is that EAR did live in Sacramento during the EAR attacks. I am not convinced he was a resident in any of the other jurisdictions. He may or may not of been. g
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By guessting
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2 years ago
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Publicity campaign
If I could have my wish, I would wish Santa Barbara LE would launch a huge publicity campaign, newspaper articles, TV news interviews with LE, and Larry Crompton, someone like Colleen Cason writing a series of articles in the Santa Barbara News Press just making the public in Santa Barbara aware of this serial rapist/murderer that has never been caught and that he struck in their community. From what I can tell I really don't think many people in Santa Barbara even know of the killings there and don't know even about EAR/ONS and don't know of the connection to Sacramento. If a lot of noise and a big and extended publicity campaign taking place over the period of at least a week, a month, was mounted, it might get the communities attention. It's somewhat similar to as if the Zodiac struck in Santa Barbara and they don't know it.
I really think something could come of it. For instance some relative that didn't realize there was a Sacramento and Contra Costa County connection might think back and realize that when their weird cousin from Sacramento came to visit is when the murders occurred. I think Santa Barbara would be a good place for this as Sacramento was very aware of EAR but new info could come from Santa Barbara once they realize a connection.
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1329 Posts
Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

Succinctly, here are some of the key reasons I feel the perp lived in Southern CA:
The Witthuhn scene was staged to look like a burglary, which is atypical behavior for EAR. The reason an offender usually does this is out of fear he'll be the focus of the investigation. Why would that have been the case with this, the first offense in Irvine?
Both Irvine crimes were different enough from all others as to be unlinkable.
Irvine crimes occurred five years apart, yet were under two miles away from each other.
1.5 years elapsed between two Goleta crimes which occurred within walking distance of each other. The same dog was brough to both (but to no other known EAR crime), suggesting a connection of some kind to the area.
Other activity in Goleta suggests the offender was in the area for some time (the entirety of Autumn, 1979).
Activity in Ventura suggests the offender had access to this area for a protracted period of time (of at least a week).
Nothing suggests the offender had access to a vehicle between September 1979 and February 1980 (note: there's good reason to believe the vehicle seen driving through the Avenida Pequena parking lot without its headlights, following the Offerman/Manning incident, was not connected to EAR)
If the offender lived in Sac throughout the early 80s and was commuting, crimes would not have been limited to two distinct Southern CA clusters. In the decade since the DNA links were made, no other homicides in California (between 1979 and 1986) have been linked, by either DNA or M.O., to EAR/ONS, with the exception of the Goleta crimes—which most of us knew were probably linked before it was confirmed. We've had many separate heads sleuthing up a variety of avenues, and I believe each has come up empty-handed in this regard. The best candidates, in my opinion, are the Portsmouth, NH murders of Laura Kempton (1981) and Tammy Little (1982), and the Aurora, CO bludgeon murders of 1984. In both series, there is DNA, which I assume has been nationally compared and does not match EAR's.

And some things to consider, also, with respect to the Contra Costa period:
San Jose, where EAR struck at least twice, is a long way to travel from Sac (over 2 hours by car).
If EAR was commuting as a ruse, why the 3/79 attack in Rancho Cordova?
Logically, there are many possibilities outside of Contra Costa for where the EAR may have lived during this period, if not Sac. Arguments could be made in favor of Alameda County (particularly Berkeley), San Francisco, elsewhere in the Bay Area, Tracy, Fairfield, or elsewhere in Contra Costa (e.g., Antioch or Orinda).
Conquistador's weekend theory is flawed in that it does not take into account other EAR activity in Contra Costa, such as aborted attacks, prowling, and recon.
Though the bulk of EAR's attacks during this period did occur on weekend days, there were several that did not, particularly toward the end of this phase (Thursday, Monday, Monday, and Thursday).
There are other explanations for why the EAR mostly struck on weekends, during this period, that do not incorporate commuting.
The EAR's prolificacy during this period did not seem relative to the distance traveled. I'll discuss this in a forthcoming post.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years ago
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Contra Costa period - relative prolificacy

There are multiple ways to approach the density of EAR's activity during any particular period. To just look at the timeline, and apply the same recurring window of time to calculate an average, is a flawed approach, because it does not take into an account the gap periods.

There are three gap periods associated with the Contra Costa period (which also makes it difficult to pinpoint when, precisely, he may have moved there, and then away from there, if indeed that was the case):
From 7/6/78 to 10/7/78 (a three-month period of inactivity).
From 12/9/78 to 4/5/79 (a four-month period of inactivity, not significantly altered when you incorporate the 3/20/79 Rancho Cordova attack.
From 4/5/79 (Fremont) to 6/2/79 (Walnut Creek), a two-month period of inactivity.

In my opinion, you'd have to work around these and other inactivity periods in order to correctly calculate and compare prolificacy.

For the two month-period between EAR's first attack in Contra Costa (10/7/78) through the last attack before a four-month hiatus (12/9/78), EAR struck six times in the Bay Area. This averages 3 attacks/month. Compare that to the similar period that followed his Summer 1977 hiatus: from his Stockton attack on 9/6/77, through his aborted Foothill Farms attack on 12/2/77, EAR struck six times during a three-month period, averaging 2 attacks/month. Observing a similar range and time-of-year for 1976, EAR struck six times from 10/5/76 through 12/18/76. This is a 2½-month period. That averages roughly 2.3 attacks/month.

For the one-month period in summer of 1979, EAR struck four times between 6/2/79 and 7/5/79 (his final, and aborted, attack anywhere in Northern CA). This is an average of 4 attacks/month. This is similar to his average of 5 attacks/month during the previous summer's pendulation between Davis and Modesto, and comparable to his most prolific periods of activity in Sacramento. The most prolific one-month period for EAR was May 1977, during which he attacked five times in under a month. October 1976 was also a busy period (four attacks in two weeks).

So, what would seem to thin out Contra Costa prolificacy are three sizeable inactivity periods. Those aside, he was no less prolific in this area than elsewhere. In fact, the summer of 1979 was a busy period, and he did not strike mostly on weekend days at this time.
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Edited by SpeakelOfEngrish, 2 years ago
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
So everyone here is in agreement EAR wasn't some homeless drifter? *sarcasm*
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By ZForce
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2 years ago
500 Posts
Re: Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
Posted By: ZForce
So everyone here is in agreement EAR wasn't some homeless drifter? *sarcasm*
So since at least one person took offense to my comment above, allow me to clarify...it was only alluding to another thread where someone suggested EAR may have been a drifter, which clearly nobody here believes to be involved in this discussion thus far.
As for the content here, it looks like VR/EAR/ONS changed MO/Sig when he moved to throw LE off of his location. This is why he did things like changing the knot in Goleta, as well as escalating the violence. Not likely that he created the crimes to throw LE off of where he was living cuz things were getting too hot. When things got hot this guy moved.
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By ZForce
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2 years ago
500 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: ZForce
So everyone here is in agreement EAR wasn't some homeless drifter? *sarcasm*
So since at least one person took offense to my comment above, allow me to clarify...it was only alluding to another thread where someone suggested EAR may have been a drifter, which clearly nobody here believes to be involved in this discussion thus far.
As for the content here, it looks like VR/EAR/ONS changed MO/Sig when he moved to throw LE off of his location. This is why he did things like changing the knot in Goleta, as well as escalating the violence. Not likely that he created the crimes to throw LE off of where he was living cuz things were getting too hot. When things got hot this guy moved.
Note: it's never been noted that EAR changed the knot in Goleta. A diamond knot was found in the Ventura ligatures, or ligature, and much has been made of this detail since its release (ca. 2002). As far as what's known, the diamond knot, or Chinese decorator knot, is only associated with the Ventura homicides. Whatever knots were used in Goleta, they've not been discussed.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years ago
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[Drifter]

ON 3/8/1977 DID AN ATTACK OCCUR AT A U.S. SENATOR's HOME?

Is this the reason why the case in solving these crimes have been cloaked in mystery all these years? If you watch THS Investigates on Youtube at about the 5 min mark you hear from a retired agent named Russell Oase from the Federal Protective Services. This government entity's purpose is to guard Federal Property and high-profile politicians. The attack on Thornwood was almost ignored in Sudden Terror. We have some great researchers amongst us please go out and investigate!!
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
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Bending spoons?
Hi Jane, I would like to know if the bending of spoon thing is true too. I imagine the spoon guy was thoroughly checked out. Also the 3 phone calls to the police, I wonder if those are the calls LE is planning on releasing soon.
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1369 Posts
Re: Bending spoons?
Sudden Terror bottom page 189. It says LE did check him out.....with no more info, why would LE check out a guy for saying something like that? The hatchet is an interesting weapon to use at that particular point in time, also.
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By JaneDoe
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2 years ago
366 Posts
Re: ON 3/8/1977 DID AN ATTACK OCCUR AT A U.S. SENATOR's HOME?

Jane Doe -

If there is anything to this theory:

1/3/77 - Senator Alan Cranston become Majority Whip of the US Senate, making him one of the most powerful men in the country and certainly in the State of California. This would be in all the newspapers.

March 77 - Possible attack on a street with a home that belongs or belonged to Alan Cranston.
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By akwilks
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2 years ago
1346 Posts
alwilks
I would not rule it out, Cranston was powerful in the US Government.The theory makes sense. However, how do we know that there weren't powerful local Government people living on the same streets in other areas where victims lived. I bet there were California State Assembly members living all over the areas of attacks. There's 80 California State Assembly members. Plus, add to that, their staff. All things are possible with the few pieces of evidence the public has to go on. LE knows far more than us!
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By JaneDoe
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2 years ago
366 Posts
Spoons
I seriously need to reread the book. I completely forgot about that incident.
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1369 Posts
Property Records
Try the county assessors office and Grantor/Grantee looks ups. Also try Googling the exact address in quotes. Sometimes that will kick up an MLA listing with former owner information.
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By ladyofthelake
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2 years ago
209 Posts

[Drifter]

Has Det Larry Pool given up the case??

Det. Larry Pool the most well-known LE officer investigating the EAR-ONS crimes has supposedly turned in his badge and has joined the FBI. For years Pool has been the public face of trying to catch the most notorious serial predator ever to have lived in California. After years of investigating has Pool given up the search thus letting down all the victims and their families? Has the Diamond Knot Killer finally won? Does the FBI normally take in middle-aged detectives? Has Pool gone to the FBI to continue the hunt for justice or like so many other detectives before him given up and on to more easier endeavors?
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
388 Posts

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Re: Has Det Larry Pool given up the case??
I don't believe Pool will ever give up on this case. He is doing other things, but give up, doubt that word is in his vocabulary.He is a good man and I am sure he will stay true to this case. g
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By guessting
Member
2 years ago
2045 Posts
Re: Has Det Larry Pool given up the case??

Guessting would know more than I do, but when I heard this I wanted to do cartwheels. I think Pool's joining the FBI enables him to add more investigative possibilities to his repertoire than he ever previously had.
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Edited by halogen110, 2 years ago
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By halogen110
Member
2 years ago
45 Posts
DITTO!
Pool will be an asset to the FBI. This case will be forever on his mind, he will never give up.
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By Miracles
Member
2 years ago
133 Posts
Mr. Juice

Someone wrote this comment on the
THS: INVESTIGATES THE ORIGINAL NIGHT STALKER 5/5 Video on YouTube...

The fella goes by the name of DartMouthAlum96 ... anyway, here's
what he said:

Here's an interesting factoid:

Detective Larry Pool is actually the officer who started the infamous Bronco chase with O.J. Simpson back in 1994. During his day as a fugative, Simpson and Al Cowlings tried to visit Nicole's grave in Orange County. When they found the cemetery swarming with cops, they got on the 5 Freeway northbound where Pool began chasing them.

Isn't it cool that Pool is a key player in two of the most notorious criminal cases in California history? He's a lucky guy.


If Mr. Pool helped catch Mr. Juice, he can catch Mr. EAR-ONS... and that's it...
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By AaronTimones
Member
2 years ago
1103 Posts
Re: Has Det Larry Pool given up the case??
I don't think Det. Pool will ever give up this case until he departs this world. The case has had a major impact on him.
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By Peterlee
Member
2 years ago
319 Posts
FBI Entrance Requirements
Normally the FBI recruits people aged 37 and under into their ranks, unless they have a special waiver. What is Pool's special waiver? As far as I know he does not speak Arabic or is an expert in weaponized anthrax.
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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts
Re: FBI Entrance Requirements
Posted By: conquistador1521
Normally the FBI recruits people aged 37 and under into their ranks, unless they have a special waiver. What is Pool's special waiver? As far as I know he does not speak Arabic or is an expert in weaponized anthrax.
Hey, Mr. Conquistador, sir.

Have you thought about contacting the man himself and asking him about
whether or not his commitment to this case will in anyway dissipate due to his
new career? or write to someone who may be in contact with Mr. Pool? maybe
someone like Mr. Crompton?

Thanks.
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By AaronTimones
Member
2 years ago
1103 Posts
From the FBI's website


Pasted directly from http://www.fbijobs.gov:

"At this time, federal agencies are operating under a Continuing Resolution with limited funding. As a result, the Department of Justice has ordered a temporary freeze on agency hiring.Until the budgetary restrictions are lifted and the FBI has funding to support hiring additional personnel, applications will not be accepted for any positions. Please return to this website for updates to our hiring opportunities. Thank you for your continued interest in FBI employment."

When they are hiring they want people 23 - 37 with the following background:

Accounting
To qualify under the Accounting Entry Program, candidates must:
Have been certified as a CPA; or
Possess, at minimum, a four-year degree with a major in Accounting and three years of progressively responsible accounting work in a professional accounting firm or comparable public setting, such as state comptroller or the General Accounting Office.



Computer Science/Information Technology
To qualify under the Computer Science/Information Technology Entry Program, you must have a computer or information technology related degree, a degree in Electrical Engineering, a Cisco Certified Network Professional (CCNP) certification, or a Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert (CCIE) certification. Applicants that qualify by virtue of a CCNP or a CCIE certification must also have a BS or BA degree in any discipline.

Language
To qualify under the Language Program, you must have a BS or BA degree in any discipline and be proficient in a language that meets the needs of the FBI. Current qualifying languages include Arabic, Chinese (all dialects), Farsi, Hebrew, Hindi, Japanese, Korean, Pashtu, Punjabi, Russian, Spanish, Urdu and Vietnamese. Candidates must pass both the listening and reading portions of the Defense Language Proficiency Test (DLPT) and demonstrate a proficiency of three or higher on the Speaking Proficiency Test (SPT) in a critical foreign language.

Law
To qualify under the Law Entry Program, candidates must have a JD degree from an accredited law school.

Diversified
To qualify under the Diversified Program, you must have a BS or BA degree in any discipline, plus three years of full-time work experience, or an advanced degree accompanied by two years of full-time work experience.

After qualifying for one of the five Entry Programs, you will be prioritized in the hiring process based upon certain Critical Skills for which the FBI is recruiting.

These critical skills are as follows : www.fbijobs.gov/Employment/CriticalSkillsCharts.pdf

Considering that they arent even hiring, and when they are hiring they want more than a middle aged cop, I find this story implausible.
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Edited by KevTheBoer, 2 years ago
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By KevTheBoer
Member
2 years ago
8080 Posts
Only he knows

the conclusion I can draw is that he has run down all possible leads in this case, EAR is definitely the luckiest criminal ever , the number of times he raped and murdered without being caught is just ridiculous considering that a lot of serial offenders are apprehended after less than a dozen crimes.
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
Det. Poole
No, I can't discuss the details, but I know for a fact that he is currently on the case. His giving up is the last thing you need to worry about.
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By jgg2009
Member
2 years ago
58 Posts

[Drifter]

OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found

The body of Cherilyn Hawkley a 39 year-old elementary school teacher was found strangled in her minivan in Granite Bay, CA. She was a recently divorced school teacher that lived in Roseville. Now there are normally no red flags that would draw me to think that ONS might be involved. However, Granite Bay having 2 unsolved strangulation homicides of women (Cindy Wanner bein theother) practically the same age only 2 years apart is beyond bizarre if one knows how safe that town normally is.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts

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Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found

I agree Arch. Were there any t.v. shows on this case? Unsolved Mysteries, Cold Case Files? Any green fibers/paint chips? Cherilyn was also strangled with a cord or "wire". The wire part got my attention.

The police did compare her case with Cindy Wanner but feel they were different though.Cherilyn was fully clothed, not raped, she was not robbed, was killed close to the time of her abduction whereas Cindy was believed to have been kept alive for some time or refrigerated and was found partially nude, is it definitive that she was raped? No DNA profile was able to be made.

Could it be EAR/ONS trying to change his m.o. again?
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Edited by Sandia, 2 years ago
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By Sandia
Member
2 years ago
1382 Posts
The Granite Bay Strangular
As far as I know there has been no real coverage of this case. It is interesting to note that the crime occurred in October (EAR/ONS high activity period). There was supposedly a sketch of a suspicious man in the area. I hope that Arch or G might be able to get a hold of that sketch for possible comparison.
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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts
Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Not knowing the exact specifics of that attack, I would point out that VR/EAR/ONS were primarily all home invasion style attacks. Not saying he wouldnt have switched up his MO by then though.
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By ZForce
Member
2 years ago
503 Posts
Re: Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Posted By: Sandia

I agree Arch. Were there any t.v. shows on this case? Unsolved Mysteries, Cold Case Files? Any green fibers/paint chips? Cherilyn was also strangled with a cord or "wire". The wire part got my attention.

The police did compare her case with Cindy Wanner but feel they were different though.Cherilyn was fully clothed, not raped, she was not robbed, was killed close to the time of her abduction whereas Cindy was believed to have been kept alive for some time or refrigerated and was found partially nude, is it definitive that she was raped? No DNA profile was able to be made.

Could it be EAR/ONS trying to change his m.o. again?
It could be EAR , he definitely showed attempts at changing MO so I wouldnt rule out him changing MO drastically enough to throw off any links to him..... ......to me two women strangled in a small location has the whole-marks of a serial offender at work whether its EAR or not. There was a situation in southern Illinois in the early 80s when two women were strangled , the victims were complete opposites (one was an african american college student and the other a white middle class lady in a nice neighborhood) and the cops were certain there was no link in the murders until over two decades later when they caught the culprit and he confessed and it was the same guy who did both women, therefore I would suspect something with these cases based on geographical location and time line . As stated in the post above EAR primarily did home invasion attacks therefore based on that if we want to track down other as yet unknown EAR crimes- all cases were there was home invasion are worth considering ( this is one aspect the guy did not change throughout all his known crimes) , . Even among serial killers and rapists those who attack victims in their homes having done a home invasion are very rare and typically tend to be the most dangerous and brazen..........
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Never hear about these cases. Still unsolved?
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By catch_him
Member
2 years ago
214 Posts
Re: Re: Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: Sandia

I agree Arch. Were there any t.v. shows on this case? Unsolved Mysteries, Cold Case Files? Any green fibers/paint chips? Cherilyn was also strangled with a cord or "wire". The wire part got my attention.

The police did compare her case with Cindy Wanner but feel they were different though.Cherilyn was fully clothed, not raped, she was not robbed, was killed close to the time of her abduction whereas Cindy was believed to have been kept alive for some time or refrigerated and was found partially nude, is it definitive that she was raped? No DNA profile was able to be made.

Could it be EAR/ONS trying to change his m.o. again?
It could be EAR , he definitely showed attempts at changing MO so I wouldnt rule out him changing MO drastically enough to throw off any links to him..... ......to me two women strangled in a small location has the whole-marks of a serial offender at work whether its EAR or not. There was a situation in southern Illinois in the early 80s when two women were strangled , the victims were complete opposites (one was an african american college student and the other a white middle class lady in a nice neighborhood) and the cops were certain there was no link in the murders until over two decades later when they caught the culprit and he confessed and it was the same guy who did both women, therefore I would suspect something with these cases based on geographical location and time line . As stated in the post above EAR primarily did home invasion attacks therefore based on that if we want to track down other as yet unknown EAR crimes- all cases were there was home invasion are worth considering ( this is one aspect the guy did not change throughout all his known crimes) , . Even among serial killers and rapists those who attack victims in their homes having done a home invasion are very rare and typically tend to be the most dangerous and brazen..........
While Cindy Wanner bears all the hallmarks of VR and early EAR circa '76, the crime is hardly indicative of the criminal he would become as ONS. He was definitely the type of offender who did what he wanted with his victims....and bludgeoning is a big leap to take and then regress from. Remember, he always escalated the violence. He changed MO as he changed location, but in the entire case there's no evidence of de-escalation, which really makes it hard to jump on cases like Granite Bay. Oakdale '87 is a much better make to kick around in my opinion.
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By ZForce
Member
2 years ago
503 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: Sandia

I agree Arch. Were there any t.v. shows on this case? Unsolved Mysteries, Cold Case Files? Any green fibers/paint chips? Cherilyn was also strangled with a cord or "wire". The wire part got my attention.

The police did compare her case with Cindy Wanner but feel they were different though.Cherilyn was fully clothed, not raped, she was not robbed, was killed close to the time of her abduction whereas Cindy was believed to have been kept alive for some time or refrigerated and was found partially nude, is it definitive that she was raped? No DNA profile was able to be made.

Could it be EAR/ONS trying to change his m.o. again?
It could be EAR , he definitely showed attempts at changing MO so I wouldnt rule out him changing MO drastically enough to throw off any links to him..... ......to me two women strangled in a small location has the whole-marks of a serial offender at work whether its EAR or not. There was a situation in southern Illinois in the early 80s when two women were strangled , the victims were complete opposites (one was an african american college student and the other a white middle class lady in a nice neighborhood) and the cops were certain there was no link in the murders until over two decades later when they caught the culprit and he confessed and it was the same guy who did both women, therefore I would suspect something with these cases based on geographical location and time line . As stated in the post above EAR primarily did home invasion attacks therefore based on that if we want to track down other as yet unknown EAR crimes- all cases were there was home invasion are worth considering ( this is one aspect the guy did not change throughout all his known crimes) , . Even among serial killers and rapists those who attack victims in their homes having done a home invasion are very rare and typically tend to be the most dangerous and brazen..........
While Cindy Wanner bears all the hallmarks of VR and early EAR circa '76, the crime is hardly indicative of the criminal he would become as ONS. He was definitely the type of offender who did what he wanted with his victims....and bludgeoning is a big leap to take and then regress from. Remember, he always escalated the violence. He changed MO as he changed location, but in the entire case there's no evidence of de-escalation, which really makes it hard to jump on cases like Granite Bay. Oakdale '87 is a much better make to kick around in my opinion.
I think there is evidence of de-escalation; if EAR was VR (which it seems very likely) -this would mean he killed Snelling in Visalia (`75), then shot McGowen (`75) then went to down to rapes until the Maggiore murders (`78)........
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: Sandia

I agree Arch. Were there any t.v. shows on this case? Unsolved Mysteries, Cold Case Files? Any green fibers/paint chips? Cherilyn was also strangled with a cord or "wire". The wire part got my attention.

The police did compare her case with Cindy Wanner but feel they were different though.Cherilyn was fully clothed, not raped, she was not robbed, was killed close to the time of her abduction whereas Cindy was believed to have been kept alive for some time or refrigerated and was found partially nude, is it definitive that she was raped? No DNA profile was able to be made.

Could it be EAR/ONS trying to change his m.o. again?
It could be EAR , he definitely showed attempts at changing MO so I wouldnt rule out him changing MO drastically enough to throw off any links to him..... ......to me two women strangled in a small location has the whole-marks of a serial offender at work whether its EAR or not. There was a situation in southern Illinois in the early 80s when two women were strangled , the victims were complete opposites (one was an african american college student and the other a white middle class lady in a nice neighborhood) and the cops were certain there was no link in the murders until over two decades later when they caught the culprit and he confessed and it was the same guy who did both women, therefore I would suspect something with these cases based on geographical location and time line . As stated in the post above EAR primarily did home invasion attacks therefore based on that if we want to track down other as yet unknown EAR crimes- all cases were there was home invasion are worth considering ( this is one aspect the guy did not change throughout all his known crimes) , . Even among serial killers and rapists those who attack victims in their homes having done a home invasion are very rare and typically tend to be the most dangerous and brazen..........
While Cindy Wanner bears all the hallmarks of VR and early EAR circa '76, the crime is hardly indicative of the criminal he would become as ONS. He was definitely the type of offender who did what he wanted with his victims....and bludgeoning is a big leap to take and then regress from. Remember, he always escalated the violence. He changed MO as he changed location, but in the entire case there's no evidence of de-escalation, which really makes it hard to jump on cases like Granite Bay. Oakdale '87 is a much better make to kick around in my opinion.
I think there is evidence of de-escalation; if EAR was VR (which it seems very likely) -this would mean he killed Snelling in Visalia (`75), then shot McGowen (`75) then went to down to rapes until the Maggiore murders (`78)........
Snelling and McGowen were both confrontational kills. Even as ONS he was using the gun to control victims and only use it when and if things got out of hand.
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By ZForce
Member
2 years ago
503 Posts
Re: OCTOBER 31st 1993 - Potential ONS victim found
Excuse me on McGowen, but you get the gist.
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By ZForce
Member
2 years ago
503 Posts
ONS Victim???

I think it is premature linking these crimes to the EAR/ONS. Because there is no forensic evidence or established M.O., there is no basis for suspecting the EAR/ONS in these particular crimes. That is not to say that he couldn't have committed these crimes. There is no basis to suspect he committed these crimes. In the case of the VR, there are the "bizarre burglaries" as well as paraphilic behavior associated with the EAR. And except for the "200 lbs" in the description, everything else is consistent with the EAR's physical description. In the Snelling case, the perpetrator of that crime clearly intended to abduct Snelling's daughter and it wasn't because he wanted to date her. Her abductor had bad intentions. The psychological profile of the VR suggested that once the VR touched his first female victim, he would progress to sexual assault.

That is a proper basis for linking the VR to the EAR/ONS. In the case of the Maggiores (which I still question), the crime occurred in an EAR comfort zone where the EAR was very active with his burglaries and paraphilic behavior. Katie Maggiore was receiving phone calls herself (although they were not consistent with pre-attack "hang-up" calls known to have been made by the EAR. The EAR did shoot later victims as well as Rod Miller. And there was the shoelace left at the scene of the crime. So while I still question a connection, there is still a strong basis for suspecting link.

In these Granite Bay cases, I do not feel that there is an adequate basis for suspecting a link. The EAR/ONS was a serial rapist. That is what every crime has in common: rape. The murder was part of his evolved M.O. An argument can be made that it was his evolved fantasy. But rape was always present. That is the part of his signature that can be expected to remain consistent as it did across fifty 261's and ten 187's.

Without the 261's present in the crimes, it would be difficult to make the case that these crimes were committed by the EAR/ONS even if he did commit them. It would be a radical departure from his signature.

Were these victims even bound?
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Edited by Archangel76, 2 years ago
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By Archangel76
Member
2 years ago
2159 Posts
I doubt it's ONS
Nothing about it seems like him. Like Arch said, rape is always present. This just would not have been satisfying to him at all. Just my opinion. I think he's really set in his ways and has a very specific script/fantasy.
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By gringalinda69
Member
2 years ago
32 Posts

[Drifter]

WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?

Hypothetically speaking lets say a tipster working with a PI obtained DNA from a suspect and the DNA matched with the Original Night Stalker. What if the subject was living in a juriscistion where there were no pending crimes? Just for the sake or argument lets say the subject was living in Northern Ca where there were no known homidides. Would the local police just go that day and round him up and then extradite him to the jurisdiction that filed the papers first?

Would their be in-fighting amongst jurisdictions on who would put him on trial first? Would a FBI Task Force be needed to sort out decades of evidence. Would the DNA have to be retested? What about all the crimes the Original Night Stalker is believed to have committed but their is no DNA evidence? Would they just cross their fingers and hope that the suspect confesses. Or would they reactivate their investigations, oh lets say like Visalia and Santa Barbara recently have, to prove that when this whole thing goes down they can show that they were actively working the case to cover their asses. Would the non-DNA murder jurisdictions put a hold on the apprehension to make sure they had time to reinterview witnesses and to establish a timeline in order to avoid contamination of a media franzy that would be sure to come.
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
388 Posts

« Previous 1 2
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SpeakleofEnglish We do agree on one thing:
Combine sexual sadism with psychopathy and anti-social personality traits, which remove the capacity for empathy, and you have a very dangerous person.
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By ladyofthelake
Member
2 years ago
209 Posts
Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?

"(However, I will say the Democrats in power "forced" the banks to give loans to people who could not qualify and caused this whole fiasco we are in now) "

Absolutely untrue. And I just say this for your own knowledge, as you are a nice person. Rent the DVD "Inside Job" when it comes out March 8.

From January 2001 to January 2007, Republicans controlled the House of Representatives, the Senate, the White House and all the federal agencies that regulate the finance industry. Margin requirements were eliminated, regulations cut, the SEC had a Bush appointee (Cox) who said he did not believe in strong regulation as the "markets can regulate themselves" and both the Clinton regime prior and the Bush regime totally resisted all efforts to regulate derivatives and complex mortgage backed securities.

The Bush regime supported the goal of home ownership for everyone, changed the rules so requirements for mortgages were eased, allowed "no doucment" mortgages, "no proof of income" mortgages and ignored warnings from critics.

Bush appointess at SEC, Treasury and Justice did NOTHING to stop the illegal scams and runaway speculation which led to the nightmare.

Add the cost of a trillion dollar war, an exploding debt and out of control consumer borrowing and you have the collapse we saw in 2008 which mostly continues, with signs of a feeble recovery. The massive move to deregulate, and basically allow corporate America and Wall Street everything they wanted, started under Reagan, continued under Bush I and Clinton, and went hog wild under the Gingrich - Hastert Congress and Bush II.
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By akwilks
Member
2 years ago
1346 Posts
This is getting so off track but...

Hopefully, I will not answer to further discussion of this because I am not really interested in getting into politics or religion, but here is my answer AK : The Clinton (Democrat) and Bush (liberal weak Republican, nothing like my hero Ronald Reagan) administration with Barney Frank and Chris Dodd (Democrats) used the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 to "force" banks to make loans to unqualified people in the name of making homes affordable to everyone.

Banks that did not give the loans were "sued" by the government for "discrimination" and banks were promised the "government" would back the loans so there was no risk to the bank.The banks then basically bet an investment firm that the mortgagee would NOT pay it back in the form of a CDS.House of Cards!

Who is the blame? Complicated issue. Lots of blame to go around. I blame the source of it, the good intentioned liberals who know nothing of business.

If you answer me back, I will probably not respond. Not to be rude but because I just don't want to get into these topics. My final word "God Bless free speech, God Bless the USA, God Bless everyone on this board, and may our country find its way out of this mess we are in."
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Edited by Sandia, 2 years ago
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By Sandia
Member
2 years ago
1369 Posts
Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?
Back on topic, by definition, if there is a DNA hit, one of the two jurisdictions with DNA on file would have toi be involved. If it is a jurisdiction without an open case, then they would notify the jurisdictions with open murder cases who would then pursue the lead.
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By DougFrench
Member
2 years ago
79 Posts
Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?

I agree this is not he best time or place for a political discussion.

However, what you are relating is the Rush-Beck version of the crisis.

It is not what happened. At all. If you care, look at the facts and read the history.

Dodd and Frank were minority members in Congress they had little power to do anything. The GOP controlled the House and Senate and was 100% in favor of maximum home ownership. You consider Bush II a "liberal"? I can't understand that at all. Also, the defaults on Fannie/Freddie loans were only a small part of the problem. A huge part of the problem was middle and upper middle class homes, and second mortgages.

The Bush regime pursued a policy of minimal regulation of Wall Street. That led to what we have. An attempt to shift the blame to Barney Frank is laughable. The GOP controlled the Congress, the White House, the SEC, Treasury and Justice Dept.

Really, though, the culprit is not either party but the permanent Washington establishment and Wall Street, which controls both parties. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, who resisted all efforts to control the boom, moderate the growth and regulate mortgage backed securities/comples deriviatives, is a Republican, but he was re-appointed by Democrat Clinton.

Both parties supported NAFTA and WTO membership for China, which has led to the de-industrialization of the US. Both parties supported a free hand for Wall Street. Both supported "no proof of income/no docs" high risk mortgages. Both supported the Fed policies. Both have taken in millions from Wall Street and do their bidding. Both parties supported a trillion dollar war.

Any Democrat who says this is 100% the fault of Republicans is delusional. Same even more so for any Republican who says all the blame should go to Democrats. But factually the GOP had more control of all the key players and agencies that led to the crisis.

We could go back to the Depression as well, GOP in power then. Or look at 20th Century American GDP growth rates, average of 2.6% under GOP Presidents and 4.0% under DEM Presidents.


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By akwilks
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2 years ago
1346 Posts
Re: Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?
Posted By: DougFrench
Back on topic, by definition, if there is a DNA hit, one of the two jurisdictions with DNA on file would have toi be involved. If it is a jurisdiction without an open case, then they would notify the jurisdictions with open murder cases who would then pursue the lead.
Also, extradition is only between states. Wherever the EAR/ONS is, if he is in California, he can be transported to Orange County to face murder charges. Even if he is out of state, extreadition is mostly a formality to establish the accused is the person sought and there is a valid warrant. If we have a DNA hit, the people in charge know what to do. Orange County has susccessfully solved and convicted on old cold cases before.
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By akwilks
Member
2 years ago
1346 Posts
The Most We Can Hope For

Is one day this creep will make a stupid mistake, and have to submit his DNA. As with a great number of catches it would require a giant stroke of luck. The chances of EAR/ONS ever breaking the law, and getting caught, I don't think it will happen.

As far as jurisdiction goes If he's discovered in another state the FBI could get involved. If THAT happened. EAR/ONS can kiss his freedom good-bye forever. Extradition would happen; and the media would be right there to film this creature in all his orange suited, manacled glory.


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Edited by setrepeoh, 2 years ago
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By setrepeoh
Member
2 years ago
532 Posts
ladyofthelake

Allow me to clarify my position.

A lone murderer is small-fry because his actions are unambiguously wrong, illegal, and immoral, and he's acted alone.

Monsanto is a bigger problem and more worthy of outrage because they're institutional. They have a far broader reach across time and space than a Richard Speck or an EAR-ONS ever could, and they have the money and power enough to continue perpetrating evil while claiming they're not (and suing anyone who too loudly claims otherwise).

I just don't see rapists and murders getting insufficient sentences, etc, as being a real problem in this country. I think the sentences are just. A life sentence without parole for a first-degree murderer is just. Texas had, and maybe still has, a problem with overcrowding, and consequently releasing violent offenders who would go on to offend again (I'm thinking Kenneth McDuff). That's a problem, And ironically, no state is more gleeful about putting people to death than Texas.
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Edited by SpeakelOfEngrish, 2 years ago
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
Member
2 years ago
1090 Posts
Economic Crisis

Sandia, I mean this kindly. If you are really interested in the truth about our current economic crisis, then please study the Community Reinvestment Act and see that it is not at all what fueled the credit/housing bubbles or the awful mortgage backed securities that were being sold. The Act is very wrongly being used in partisan politics as a way to blame the wrong people responsible.


DNA - I doubt EAR/ONS was incarcerated, but if he was/is, it's likely that he wasn't required by law to submit a DNA sample. It's infuriating how many prisoners (even death row inmates) were not required to give a DNA sample...even more infuriating is the backlog of samples and evidence not tested and submitted to CODIS yet.
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Edited by privatecitizen, 2 years ago
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By privatecitizen
Member
2 years ago
77 Posts
One Thing Worth Doing
Spend some time on jj's site reading the newspaper stories . In particular quotes from the Sac cops who were chasing this guy. One of the Sacramento Union stories from 1977 says that LE had narrowed the search down to 12 suspects. Does anyone know if all 12 were eventually cleared?
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By f1guyus
Member
2 years ago
1270 Posts
WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?
Conquistador, Is murder a federal offense? If so, could there not be one federal court located within California where the Attorney General tries the cases?
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By ladyofthelake
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2 years ago
209 Posts
Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?
Posted By: ladyofthelake
Conquistador, Is murder a federal offense? If so, could there not be one federal court located within California where the Attorney General tries the cases?
No, standard murder is not a federal offense. It is a federal offense to murder a federal official while that official is perfprming their official duties. That is why the AZ shooter was charged federally with the attempted murder of Rep. Giffords, but not the murder of the federal judge who was not there as part of his duties. The EAR/ONS did not commit a federal crime, so no federal charges.
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By DougFrench
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2 years ago
79 Posts
Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?

Doug is correct. There do not appear to be any federal charges in the EAR/ONS case, unless, if after one of the murders he left the state. There is a federal crime called "Interstate flight to avoid prosecution for murder."

If there was a DNA hit, however, it is pretty clear the trial would be in Orange County. That county could bring 4 charges of murder, so I would think that Ventura would consent to the trial being held there, and there is not conclusive evidence in regards to Santa Barbara, Visalia or Sacramento. So I think it would have to be Orange County.
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By akwilks
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2 years ago
1346 Posts
Re: Re: Re: WHAT IF THERE WAS A DNA HIT?
Posted By: akwilks
Posted By: DougFrench
Back on topic, by definition, if there is a DNA hit, one of the two jurisdictions with DNA on file would have toi be involved. If it is a jurisdiction without an open case, then they would notify the jurisdictions with open murder cases who would then pursue the lead.
Also, extradition is only between states. Wherever the EAR/ONS is, if he is in California, he can be transported to Orange County to face murder charges. Even if he is out of state, extreadition is mostly a formality to establish the accused is the person sought and there is a valid warrant. If we have a DNA hit, the people in charge know what to do. Orange County has susccessfully solved and convicted on old cold cases before.

I have been assured that Orange County will be handling all the cases if we ever go to trial, including Sacramento's. Even the Maggiore case (if it is proven that this is EARONS) would be tried in Orange County. Our detectives would be on hand for the case but it would ALL take place in the southern part of the state. I want to attend that trial and I am disappointed I would have to relocate for the duration of the trial. g
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Edited by guessting, 2 years ago
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By guessting
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2 years ago
2045 Posts
DNA HIT
I would be happy to take allllllll of my accumulated sick days to go attend the trial in Orange County. And, in truth, looking at the B would make me sick.
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By dengas
Member
2 years ago
966 Posts
Mr. Conquistador

Hello, Mr. Conquistador, sir.

At this point in time, I think Law Enforcement is concerned mostly with
the first part of your hypothetical scenario, sir.... the part concerning finding
a suspect with a DNA Match .......

At the time of this writing, I don't really know if there are people in Law
Enforcement who are worried about or even thinking about.... jurisdictional
problems... when it comes to this case... I think most people in Law Enforcement
would consider this putting the carriage before the horse, you know what I
mean, sir?

Anyway, you wrote an interesting post, sir.... and it is something to
think about.

Thank you.

Aaron

P.S.

Mr. Conquistador, sir... here... this is my response to the private message you
sent me, sir ......Smile

The Master Talks About "The Master"
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Edited by AaronTimones, 2 years ago
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By AaronTimones
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2 years ago
1103 Posts

Quick Reply

[Drifter]

THE AEROJET MAN - Rancho Cordova, LA, Clearfield, UT connection

In the last two weeks extraordinary pieces of information have been coming out on this case. The first was the 3/7/1973 burglary of a house where a 16-year-old high school student from Rancho Cordova lives. Three years later she would be one of first EAR's victims. Arch more than likely has found one of the very first crimes that this offender had committed. However, for some reason the posters on this board were far more interested in discussing checkered socks and whether the EAR right or left handed.

The other interesting fact were the blue/green paint flakes were found at the second Goleta crime scenes and at least one EAR scene. I have been doing a lot of outreach behind the scenes. I have been contacting Alumni from Cordova High School. The people that actually lived and worked and were in the right age range of EAR at the time of the crimes.

There is ample evidence to suggest that EAR at least at one point in time worked construction. However, with this paint chip evidence has turned my focus on to something else. In the 70' and 80's during the Cold War, Defense Contractor positions were plentiful, especially in California. I have found that a lot of men from Cordova High School when they left school went to work for either Raytheon or Aerojet which is actually headquarted in Rancho Cordova.

Both of these companies employed what are called Paint and Blast technicians. They could be tasked from putting special protective coating on missles to painting airplanes. If the suspect worked in an environment like this I could see how paint chips were transferred to his bag.

www.aerojet.com/about/locations.php

Aerojet has a plant in Woodland Hills, CA. Woodland Hills is located in Los Angeles County. This is a county that was mysteriously skipped during the murders. We do know that EAR would drive great distances to committ his crimes to throw off LE.

maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=kjrmc&cp=12&gs_id=t&xhr=t&q=woodland+hills+ca&rlz=1R2HPIC_enUS368&biw=994&bih=547&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&wrapid=tljp131956579529606&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x80c29eecf136f655:0xfa86506e44241288,Woodland+Hills,+Los+Angeles,+CA&gl=us&ei=_PmmTsnRNsiTiQLepoSuDQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ8gEwAQ

Goleta-80 miles North

Ventura-42 miles North (multiple reports of prowling for an extended period was reported before and after the Smth murders).

Woodland Hills-Aerojet Plant

Irvine-65 miles South

Laguna Niguel-79 miles South

A scenario like this would explain why EAR/ONS has avoided detection all these years. There were Raytheon plants that were located in Goleta and Vandenburg but I think that might have been too obvious of a place. I believe there was a very high likelihood that the offender was originally from Rancho Cordova went to Tulare County, came back in 1976 and then moved to S. California possibly as a Defense contractor or construction or a combination of the two.


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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
388 Posts

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Re: Re: LA County theory
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: conquistador1521
SOE - you make many good valid points. I am not 100% certain that he never lived in Orange County. However, LE and the general public also believe that he most likely lived in Goleta or Irvine or both. Why hasn't this case been resolved? Why is this guy such a ghost? If the offender did live in LA County that would answer why he has slipped through the cracks. I think the reason why he staged the burglary in Irvine and brought the dog in Goleta on two separate occasions to frame the owner was part of his game. I think he wanted to cause as much confusion with in LE as possible. I cant prove it. It is just a hunch.
I am not 100% certain about anything in this case. I feel it's best to start with the most logical or likely sets of scenarios and work backward from there. EAR living in Los Angeles County is not among the most logical or likely scenarios, based upon the data. For EAR to have had access to that dog, I feel he'd have to have known the owners, and the owners would have to have either (a) known the dog was in his company, or (b) not been in town. It is highly unlikely that the EAR was unknown to the dog. I think he possibly did not foresee that the dog would be of any evidentiary value. And the staging of the Witthuhn scene was unique to that crime. The Witthuhn murder would not have been investigated as a serial crime, even if the staging had not occurred. The staging, then, seems superfluous in the context of your theory. The offender clearly felt it necessary to stage that scene, so there must be some reason for that. Either he lived nearby, or he knew the Witthuhns on some level.

Excellent posts Conquistador. I think there may have been some employment connection between northern and southern California. It makes sense and I think would explain his seemingly (to me at least) more inconspicuous behavior as ONS than EAR (i.e. he knew something linked him to the north and the south that while not easily discoverable was at least discoverable).

I agree Speakel. That was the one time he staged a crime scene as far as I am aware. Also, and I think this is critical, he could never have known that we would know it was the one time.

Why would he stage that crime scene then? As Speakel said there had to be a reason and I think he is right.

Some thoughts:

He was attempting to ensure by staging the crime scene (and attacking a lone female) that Irvine was not connected to the other murders because he feared police in Irvine knowing they were dealing with a serial offender who was the perpetrator of the couples murders and/or was attempting to influence who the police viewed as possible suspects (that, of course, isn't the only possible explanation but I think it makes sense if you're trying to assign his behavior a purpose - I'm just theorizing).

The questions I think are these: What would the police have done differently if they had known that they were dealing with the person who committed the murders in the other areas? Who would they have looked at that they didn't look at when the murder occurred? And what would they have looked For?

Layman's perspective: I think the obvious answer is that if they knew that the man who committed the Witthuhn murder committed the murders in Goleta, etc. one of the things they might have looked for is an individual in Irvine with connections to those areas. I think also if they knew they were looking for this type of offender they would have probably cast a much wider net as far as suspects go but that's a guess on my part - I have no info on their investigation.

For some reason I think EAR/ONS thought he could be zeroed in on in Irvine and if the attack was connected to the areas of other crimes (areas he most likely had some discernible connection to the other areas if you were looking specifically at him) it would fall apart quickly for him.

Why he may have thought that and why in Irvine that could have happened is of course the big question but I think Speakel is right: he lived in the area or had a ties to it through work or he knew the Witthuhns on some level.

Pure guessing (again): He wasn't looked at because of the scope of the Witthuhn investigation or even if he or the business he worked at or his family was known or would have been apparent to investigators (just through checking) the only thing that would have implicated him would have been the ties to the other areas and police were not looking for that or casting such a wide net probably. I'd be interested to know, as an aside, who they did look at (what type of individuals) and when they looked at them what they were looking for.

I should add I do not think any of this would have been obvious at all even if police knew all the info but I think the thread was there in Irvine if the police had it ...and I think he knew it.

I will stop rambling.


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Edited by hubertj2, 2 years ago
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By hubertj2
Member
2 years ago
120 Posts
Re: Re: Re: LA County theory
Posted By: hubertj2
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: conquistador1521
SOE - you make many good valid points. I am not 100% certain that he never lived in Orange County. However, LE and the general public also believe that he most likely lived in Goleta or Irvine or both. Why hasn't this case been resolved? Why is this guy such a ghost? If the offender did live in LA County that would answer why he has slipped through the cracks. I think the reason why he staged the burglary in Irvine and brought the dog in Goleta on two separate occasions to frame the owner was part of his game. I think he wanted to cause as much confusion with in LE as possible. I cant prove it. It is just a hunch.
I am not 100% certain about anything in this case. I feel it's best to start with the most logical or likely sets of scenarios and work backward from there. EAR living in Los Angeles County is not among the most logical or likely scenarios, based upon the data. For EAR to have had access to that dog, I feel he'd have to have known the owners, and the owners would have to have either (a) known the dog was in his company, or (b) not been in town. It is highly unlikely that the EAR was unknown to the dog. I think he possibly did not foresee that the dog would be of any evidentiary value. And the staging of the Witthuhn scene was unique to that crime. The Witthuhn murder would not have been investigated as a serial crime, even if the staging had not occurred. The staging, then, seems superfluous in the context of your theory. The offender clearly felt it necessary to stage that scene, so there must be some reason for that. Either he lived nearby, or he knew the Witthuhns on some level.

Excellent posts Conquistador. I think there may have been some employment connection between northern and southern California. It makes sense and I think would explain his seemingly (to me at least) more inconspicuous behavior as ONS than EAR (i.e. he knew something linked him to the north and the south that while not easily discoverable was at least discoverable).

I agree Speakel. That was the one time he staged a crime scene as far as I am aware. Also, and I think this is critical, he could never have known that we would know it was the one time.

Why would he stage that crime scene then? As Speakel said there had to be a reason and I think he is right.

Some thoughts:

He was attempting to ensure by staging the crime scene (and attacking a lone female) that Irvine was not connected to the other murders because he feared police in Irvine knowing they were dealing with a serial offender who was the perpetrator of the couples murders and/or was attempting to influence who the police viewed as possible suspects (that, of course, isn't the only possible explanation but I think it makes sense if you're trying to assign his behavior a purpose - I'm just theorizing).

The questions I think are these: What would the police have done differently if they had known that they were dealing with the person who committed the murders in the other areas? Who would they have looked at that they didn't look at when the murder occurred? And what would they have looked For?

Layman's perspective: I think the obvious answer is that if they knew that the man who committed the Witthuhn murder committed the murders in Goleta, etc. one of the things they might have looked for is an individual in Irvine with connections to those areas. I think also if they knew they were looking for this type of offender they would have probably cast a much wider net as far as suspects go but that's a guess on my part - I have no info on their investigation.

For some reason I think EAR/ONS thought he could be zeroed in on in Irvine and if the attack was connected to the areas of other crimes (areas he most likely had some discernible connection to the other areas if you were looking specifically at him) it would fall apart quickly for him.

Why he may have thought that and why in Irvine that could have happened is of course the big question but I think Speakel is right: he lived in the area or had a ties to it through work or he knew the Witthuhns on some level.

Pure guessing (again): He wasn't looked at because of the scope of the Witthuhn investigation or even if he or the business he worked at or his family was known or would have been apparent to investigators (just through checking) the only thing that would have implicated him would have been the ties to the other areas and police were not looking for that or casting such a wide net probably. I'd be interested to know, as an aside, who they did look at (what type of individuals) and when they looked at them what they were looking for.

I should add I do not think any of this would have been obvious at all even if police knew all the info but I think the thread was there in Irvine if the police had it ...and I think he knew it.

I will stop rambling.


That is an interesting take on the staging of the Witthuhn crime scene, I just wanted to add that we should not necessarily expect to find order and reasonable logic in EARs behavior at crime scenes for example with why he staged the Witthuhn scene. When the green river killer was active one of the women he killed (Mary Christensen, I think) was found staged with bottle of wine and some fish on her body, for many years investigators and sleuths speculated on the significance of this with suggetions that maybe the killer was religious or something........to cut a long story short when Ridgeway was caught and he was asked about that murder and why he staged it, his answer was that he had stuff that he wanted to chuck out of his house so he placed it on the woman when he went to the dump! The moral of this story, I think, may have significance as to why the Witthuhn scene was staged...........its just something that I thought might be thrown into the equation.
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
Good point about Ridgway
Was EAR getting older and wiser...settled down and semi-retired from his sick ways...no longer a sloppy offender but man of responsibilities now - and removing any link with where he lived (Irvine) and where he had family (Goleta)?
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By SammyT
Member
2 years ago
433 Posts
Re:

Hi Dan. I totally agree about placing too much significance on any one action. It is just impossible to know the motivation. That was a great example about Ridgeway.


It may not have had any significance. I think it did based on number of things. However, I am well-aware I could be 100% wrong and he may have just felt like screwing with police in that instance and it did not signify anything particular about Irvine.

HJ2


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Edited by hubertj2, 2 years ago
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By hubertj2
Member
2 years ago
120 Posts
Pre DNA
Why was he so keen for the crimes not to look part of the EAR-ONS series though?
He had to have had a connection to Irvine - my bet is that by this point EAR had a significant other, lived in Irvine and could no longer wander so far afield without raising suspicion.S****ing on his own doorstep meant he had to make doubly sure that it never became known that the murders were the work of the prolific and notorious EAR-ONS.Speakel has posted a lot of good information relating to this idea.
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By SammyT
Member
2 years ago
433 Posts
EAR/ONS

These crimes in different parts of California DO indicate change of employment. I remember Aerojet's staging area, where they tested the rockets for Apollo 11 back in 1968. I was stationed at Mather at the time in the CDS security police. At night the entire eastern sky would light up, and the roar was clearly audible. Mather's close proximity to Rancho Cordova makes me believe EAR was there either as an enlisted man, or, a military dependent living on or near the base. I left California in 1969, and often thought about returning. Maybe some day I'll follow through..... it's on my bucket list....
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By setrepeoh
Member
2 years ago
532 Posts
sammy
i believe he was so keen for the ear crimes in sacramento not to be linked to irvine because his name is on record in sacramento when questioned, and if they were to get involved might of been able to link him to the two areas if he came under investigation in irvine.and/or if the crimes were linked at the time the media would be all over it and his partner or associates would put two and two together.he knew this and made sure it didnt happen.
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By metalhalide
Member
2 years ago
194 Posts
Re: sammy
Posted By: metalhalide
i believe he was so keen for the ear crimes in sacramento not to be linked to irvine because his name is on record in sacramento when questioned, and if they were to get involved might of been able to link him to the two areas if he came under investigation in irvine.and/or if the crimes were linked at the time the media would be all over it and his partner or associates would put two and two together.he knew this and made sure it didnt happen.
Metalhide,
Good post. I think it is a possibility he was routinely questioned during a canvassing of the neighborhoods or maybe he knew the business he worked at was talked to. I think you could very well be right that he knew if his name (or possibly his family's name or the business he worked for) appeared again in connection in the south what may have seemed innocuous by itself might suddenly appear a lot more suspicious.I agree SammyT that Speakel has posted a lot of great info relating to the significance of Irvine. I would not have even thought of Irvine if I had not read a Speakel post on it about a year ago and his thoughts formed the basis for what I have come to believe about this location. As far as I know, he was the first to put forth this theory. Whether you agree with the theory or not one thing cannot be denied: Speakel is one of the top minds on this board. HJ2
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By hubertj2
Member
2 years ago
120 Posts

[Drifter]

DRIFTER

From reading Sudden Terror and studying the timeline on the website it seems our man was a real drifter. I think there was a good chance our man worked in construction. Climbing on rooftops at night, who the hell does that?? Unless you are a 12 year old playing pranks or, orrr maybe you are a roofer and feel very comfortable on people's houses. If you worked construction you would be familiar with the design of homes and would have better knowledge than most on how to break in to homes. I have done some research and I know that there was a lot of construction in Sacramento area in the mid to late 1970's. Construction is a very transient profession. EAR was very transient, moving all over California after April of 1978. When our suspect was absent in the Summer of 1977 perhaps he was working down South. The EAR patrols took credit for driving him out, if that was true he could have hit in Davis (a lot of young female targets and no patrols). After dormant all Summer of 1977, he first struck in Stockton. Why would anyone go to Stockton unless you are driving through it headed North to Sacramento.

CONSTRUCTION

1. Unlike the military you can have collar length hair

2. If you are a roofer, being physically fit and nimble is necessary

3. You can work several months at a times and have long periods of free time (Sound like someone?) No activity from EAR in Summer of 1977 but struck 5 times in May of 1977 right before like he was preparing to be a way for a while.

4. Construction workers move often, this would give EAR an excelent cover and give him access to neighborhoods and cities all over Northern California. Why else would anyone go to Modesto? I mean really.
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By conquistador1521
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3 years ago
388 Posts

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The bit about climbing roofs..........

coukld be that he still had not outgrown this since his youth ; it could also be that climbing on roofs also afforded him a good view of the area and he could see other residences, roads, adjacent yards etc
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By DanCartell
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2 years ago
683 Posts

[Drifter]

Thru a Student's Eyes

I took a long break and reexamined the case with fresh eyes. I went back and looked at the best arguments and evidece that has been presented on this board. I also have tried to figure out LE's strategy in apprehending the suspect and I think I might have of found it.

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/CSUS77-78.jpg

As has been stated before the 1977/1978 Calandar year for Sacramento State and the EAR crimes are closely linked.

Tuesday September 6th 1977 Instruction begins

Tuesday September 6th 1977 First Stockton Attack (50 miles South of Sacramento) possibly returning from Tulare County.

Between October 1st and December 2nd 1977 there are 5 EAR attacks

December 27 th thru January 29th 1978 Winter Recess

Saturday January 28th 1978 EAR attack (1 day before the end of Winter Recess).

February 2nd 1978 Maggiores killed (4 days after Winter Recess ends)

Saturday March 18th 1978 2nd Stockton Attack (50 miles South of Sacramento) possible heading toward to Tulare County

March 20-24th 1978 Mon-Fri Spring Recess

2 EAR attacks in April 1978

June 2nd 1978 Last Day of Instruction

EAR completely unattatched to Sacramento committs 5 attacks in June and July ranging from Modesto to Davis on nearly all days of the week.

EAR can be traced in Sacramento for roughly two years. This is not enough time to complete a degree unless he recvd some lower division classes. This is where I believe his trail can be found. Look at Sac State students with transfer credits from the College of the Sequoias.

Some will say also look at American River College. I put my money on Sac State. Before the rapes made headlines the bulk of the attacks occurred either on or near Paseo Drive in Rancho Cordova or on the other side of the river off American River Drive. La Riviera Drive is roughly right in the middle of these two clusters. La Riviera just happens to be where the bulk of Sac State students live. The poulation is largely transient and live in low cost apartments and duplexes.

OTHER CENTRAL VALLEY TRAITS

Bull Tattoo ??

Belt Buckle with guns

Mentioned Bakersfield several times

Possible interest in horses

www.jjmcgr.org/BK/Clippings/770518.pdf

During attack on 5/28/1977 EAR says "it scares my mommy when it is on the news" 10 days after an article about EAR appear in the Visalia Delta Times.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 9 months ago
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By conquistador1521
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9 months ago
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COS

Conquistador,

The ransackings and Snelling murder were very close to the COS campus. Has anyone ever looked at a 1974 city directory to see who lived in apartments in the area close to campus or military that lived in apartments close to campus?


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By PortofLeith
Member
9 months ago
950 Posts
Polk
Portoleith, I have looked at Polk directorites in the past, but specifically one address at a time. Sin City (Walnut Avenue and Mooney Blvd.) was in full swing with lots of Lemoore based sailers/airmen. I don't actually know if Polk directory would help; it seems that a lot of rentals wouldn't have names of people living at the various locations. I need to spend an evening at the library on another matter regarding VR, so I'll check some of the apartment buildings out to see if we can get names.
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By dengas
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9 months ago
959 Posts
SAC STATE CLASS OF 1978

"ATTN SACRAMENTO LAW ENFORCEMENT"


1. Go to California State Universiry Sacramento

2. Obtain records of transfer students from the College of the Sequoias

3. Filter for candidates that have ties to Southern California at the right timesThis is how the case will be solved.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 9 months ago
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By conquistador1521
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9 months ago
388 Posts
Re: Thru a Student's Eyes
Interest in horse may be more than ever thought about.g
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By guessting
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9 months ago
2030 Posts
Re: Thru a Student's Eyes

A few remarks...

The Sac State theory is predicated upon the EAR being an out-of-town student. So, if EAR was a student at Sac State, it's likely he was not from the area. (Not many Visalians attend[ed] Sac State. The number of Redwood and Mt. Whitney grads between 1970 and 1975 who subsequently attended Sac State is nearly zero.)

If EAR was not from the area, it is improbable he'd have been attending American River College, unless he was in Sacramento for some other primary reason. ARC generally does not draw from other areas. I am no longer so confident he was a student while in Sac, however. But I still see it as a good possibility.

There was prowling observed by neighbors of #31 the previous day (as well as on a previous instance), somewhat challenging the notion that EAR was just passing through Stockton.

EAR's mentions of Bakersfield, for me, seem to reinforce the possibility that he was from Visalia or somewhere else in the San Joaquin valley (even Bakersfield is a possibility), as it's the sort of place that is unlikely to be on the radar of a Southern Californian, or native Sacramentan, to the extent that one would reference it in an instance of misdirection while committing a rape. He also mentioned he was going to Los Angeles on one or two occasions. So, generally, he liked to give the impression that he was gonna be traveling south. So in terms of geographic origins, you may want to look for someone for whom "Los Angeles" and "Bakersfield" are somewhat interchangeable in terms of 'down South.'

Re: Polk Directories. Polk Directories do catalog transient residents such as apartment tenants, and though they catalog them more thoroughly than the Haines directories, they nonetheless catalog them poorly. While you're likely to see "Smith John E" for homeowners, you're more likely to see "Smith J" or sometimes just "Smith" for tenants. In most such cases, there's no way to disambiguate. Also, Polk Directories are rife with typographical errors. By my estimation, somewhere between 2% and 15% of all names in the 1977 Sacramento Suburban Polk are erroneous.

I engaged in a little geo-profiling exercise not long ago, plotting EAR's first four attacks on a map, and then creating a separate map in which I plotted the locations of Richard Trenton Chase's three victims, plus his own residence.

Here's the Chase map, with the red pushpin indicating Chase's residence. Numbers indicate the chronology of attacks.



Here's the EAR map, numbers indicating the chronology of attacks. Scale is the same:

For one, Chase was a killer, while EAR was merely a rapist at this point. For another, Chase was batshit crazy -- he was a disorganized offender, while EAR was an organized offender. But, that's what accounts I think for the much broader distance between initial attacks, in EAR's case.

Also, the American River is not a factor in Chase's attacks the way it is with EAR's.

But, both series establish a triangle if you connect the plot points. Chase resided within that triangle, and closest to his first attack.

There is a substantial number of apartment complexes located on Fair Oaks Blvd, near El Camino Ave, that are ideally positioned from a geo-profiling standpoint. Most of them were there in 1976. But I also feel that if EAR were new to the area and lived in an apartment building, he may not have felt too reserved about offending fairly close to his residence, as living in an apartment in a suburban neighborhood, you tend to feel removed from the surrounding housing tracts. (There are several complexes in the Cordova Meadows area worth keeping in mind.)

Also -- for me, this is one reasonable explanation why the 'Ransacker' may have not been recognized by anyone while he was prowling: he lived in an area apartment complex, and had no connection to the area prior to his moving there.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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9 months ago
1090 Posts
The Summer Frenzy

I dont know what High School EAR attended. I dont know where he grew up. I do know that he resided in Tulare County from at least from October 1973 to December 1975. I know that he committed crimes practically in front of the College of Sequoias. According to Arch we can place EAR in Sacramento County starting form April 1976 to the summer of 1978. Many of these crimes were in close proximinty to CSUS. According to multiple witnesses EAR would seem to fit the age range of a college student. He spent just enough time here coincidentally to complete upper division classes fo graduation. It only makes sense to check the people who attended both schools. As SOE said there probably would be few in number. This would be easy to do. There are no guarantees but there is a good chance of indentifying him this way.


6/2/1978 Last day of instruction and then EAR goes around like a ping pong ball across multiple counties

6/5/78 Modesto

6/7/78 Davis

6/23/78 Modesto

6/24/78 Davis

7/6/78 Davis
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Edited by conquistador1521, 9 months ago
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By conquistador1521
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9 months ago
388 Posts
Re: The Summer Frenzy
Posted By: conquistador1521

I dont know what High School EAR attended. I dont know where he grew up. I do know that he resided in Tulare County from at least from October 1973 to December 1975. I know that he committed crimes practically in front of the College of Sequoias. According to Arch we can place EAR in Sacramento County starting form April 1976 to the summer of 1978. Many of these crimes were in close proximinty to CSUS. According to multiple witnesses EAR would seem to fit the age range of a college student. He spent just enough time here coincidentally to complete upper division classes fo graduation. It only makes sense to check the people who attended both schools. As SOE said there probably would be few in number. This would be easy to do. There are no guarantees but there is a good chance of indentifying him this way.


6/2/1978 Last day of instruction and then EAR goes around like a ping pong ball across multiple counties

6/5/78 Modesto

6/7/78 Davis

6/23/78 Modesto

6/24/78 Davis

7/6/78 Davis
Couple this with the fact that he appeared to be setting up house by stealing dishes, silverware, and other household items after leaving Sac. It makes you wonder why he did not have these basic items of his own in Sac. These items must have been provided for him in one way or another. For instance, maybe he either lived with a family member/friend/ roommates who were already established OR maybe he lived in a dorm type of residence and ate regularly at the university cafeteria. I think this is somewhat significant. It shows that EAR probably did not live alone while in Sac. I also wonder why EAR did not just purchase these items. Since EAR rarely took money, many have concluded that money must have not been an issue for EAR. After moving away from Sac, either money became more of an issue or it was another way for him to relive his crime by eating off of the plate that belonged to one of his victims, or maybe both. Either he was on his own when he moved to Contra Costa or it was a ruse to make everyone think he was no longer in Sac- the latter being a theory Conquistador brought to the board.
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By lawstudent1
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9 months ago
316 Posts
Household Items

EAR's curious decision to steal a range of household items suggests a hasty exit from the previous address. It implies there was insufficient time to pack boxes and engage removalists. For one reason or another, he was forced to relocate.

lawstudent1 sets up an interesting question: if money was no problem for EAR, why did he go to the effort of hauling all of these household items out of the victims' residence when he could have more easily bought them? It's a question for those who are convinced that EAR is middle class.

But there is an equal question for the rest, who suspect EAR was not middle class: if he lacked money, why did he not take it when it was staring him in the face? The only answer I can think of is that he was operating under demands from someone else. Instructions came from his mother who was "making me do it".

I believe leaving some money behind was his personal way of disobeying and rebelling against her authority.
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Edited by aus_sherlock_holmes, 9 months ago
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By aus_sherlock_holmes
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9 months ago
97 Posts
Re: Household Items
Posted By: aus_sherlock_holmes

EAR's curious decision to steal a range of household items suggests a hasty exit from the previous address. It implies there was insufficient time to pack boxes and engage removalists. For one reason or another, he was forced to relocate.

lawstudent1 sets up an interesting question: if money was no problem for EAR, why did he go to the effort of hauling all of these household items out of the victims' residence when he could have more easily bought them? It's a question for those who are convinced that EAR is middle class.

But there is an equal question for the rest, who suspect EAR was not middle class: if he lacked money, why did he not take it when it was staring him in the face? The only answer I can think of is that he was operating under demands from someone else. Instructions came from his mother who was "making me do it".

I believe leaving some money behind was his personal way of disobeying and rebelling against her authority.

Or his white german shepherd may have been dictating to him how much money to take on each hit.
Its odd that you dont think raping women would be anything his mom would not approve of. (Especially if you think she had sexual feelings for her son.) I mean shes just into it for the costume jewelry according to your theory from before. It seems to me that if she wanted money she wouldve told him to rob liquor stores, not invade homes and rape women.

"Middleclass" refers to his upbringing, or that he's still living at home in a middleclass area. I think ears was student-aged too, so anywhere from 18-25ys old is my guess. What Im saying is, is that he could be called middleclass but not have a lot of money on hand, especially if he was a student.

What are all the household items supposed to be? An alarm clock? A fork and spoon? A plate?
It makes sense to me that he would like to eat off a victim's plate with her fork because he thinks he 'owns' her now. And he always gave me a bit of an eerie feeling that there was an element to his home invasions where he was playing as if he lived there in all those hours he spent tooling around the home. He took the husband's role quite literally, in the couples attacks. (Which might support your theory that he had a sort of Oedipal complex. But more likely would probably be due to the fact that he loves dominating men and women alike. And taking 'property' from other men and defiling it. All dominating things.)

I wonder if ears had a romantic notion about himself. This is a guy who used the very dramatic line that he'd 'be gone in the night and no one would know' to victims. That sounds like he was playing with a tagline for his 'exploits.'

How many times did he actually pass up money from a purse, wallet or kids coin jar.
He seemed to live for these attacks. If he didnt have a social life, wasnt dating or had expensive hobbies, he didnt really have a need to take money. Its not like he was going to get rich off his attacks anyway, most people seemed to have little money on them.
He was a short-term thinker who was living in the moment, doing these crimes because they were thrilling and sexually satisfying for him. If he forgot to take a $20 from a purse, its because he wasnt focused on that, he was focused on raping, ransacking, terrorizing and not getting caught. If he had room and board all set up, even less of a reason to take money.

The student angle sounds strong. That schedule seems to sync up. I can all but see him sitting by himself in the cafeteria, shoveling in his dinner of meatloaf and mashed potatoes, looking at the other students with a critical eye.
But then, I see him looking at the girls and think, how would he not covet and target those girls? At least a couple; even if he didnt want to have a trail lead back to him, how could someone like him who is so unnervingly bold and seemingly fearless not give in to temptation? Those would be exactly the girls he couldnt get, in his classes every day, in the halls, walking the campus.
Were any of the victims college students, except for the captain's wife and the random one in the condo that kicked his leg and that he then beat up? Can you sync him up to any school wrt any of his victims?
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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 9 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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9 months ago
469 Posts
College student

At least 4 of his victims used the same computer lab at CSUS. Another victim had been to the campus earlier in the day to meet a friend. This article gives a bit more insight to the the student theory. If EAR were a student on the GI bill it could explain his schedule, prior military experience etc.


www.jjmcgr.org/BK/Clippings/780522.pdf

Speakel- You are correct about the limitations of the Polk directories in relation to apartments. I am particularily interested in the County Center Drive apartment residents and now that dengas mentioned the Lemoore NAS "Sin City" apartments in Visalia, that location as well. Living in an apartment complex gives anonymity and location. Apartments also usually cater to a younger , more nocturnal clientele. I wonder how carefully the apartment dwellers around the Maggiore apartment were questioned?
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Edited by PortofLeith, 9 months ago
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By PortofLeith
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9 months ago
950 Posts
thank you for the article
I think Im having a stroke Or thats just too blurry to read.

5 out of 50? At 2.5%, could that be coincidence? So I guess you might factor in: these attacks were close to the school and came in a spate?
If he were a student there at that time, why wouldnt it be easier to circle in on finding him?

Also, they had computer labs then? wow.
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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
9 months ago
469 Posts
Re: Thru a Student's Eyes

confidence, I think you may actually be having a stroke, as the article is perfectly legible throughout. Had you been able to make out the first paragraph, you might be frothing over the author's description of the victim as "attractive... tall, trim, well built."

Four victims tied to the same computer lab constitutes a very specific common bond. Other common bonds may apply to a much larger number of victims, such as the Sunrise Mall or the Country Club Center, but these are large public spaces that may be too broad and heavily trafficked to be of any significance. Such is less the case with the CSUS computer lab, in my opinion.

There were about 3,000 male students at CSUS at that time. It's easier, in retrospect, to look for those who have lived in Southern CA (already done) than to have staked out the residences of each, which is primarily what the SCSD's method of elimination was at that time -- before the EAR's non-secretor status was recognized, at least.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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9 months ago
1090 Posts
Computer lab???
Wow. Around 1978ish, I was working as a bookkeeper and the very wealthy farmers had an IBM 5120. I was unaware of computers being used in labs in 1976. ? I know when I went back to college in the mid '80's, I had a Word Processor, not a computer. I'm genuninely interested in the fact that there were computer labs in the mid 70's.
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By dengas
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9 months ago
959 Posts
Re: Computer lab???
Posted By: dengas
Wow. Around 1978ish, I was working as a bookkeeper and the very wealthy farmers had an IBM 5120. I was unaware of computers being used in labs in 1976. ? I know when I went back to college in the mid '80's, I had a Word Processor, not a computer. I'm genuninely interested in the fact that there were computer labs in the mid 70's.
If you perform a search for the phrase "Computer Lab" on newspaperarchive.com, and set the range from 1960 to 1979, you'll find that 1,142 results are returned to you.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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9 months ago
1090 Posts
Computer Labs 1976
I worked as a graduate research assistant for an anthropology project in 1976 at a university and of course, we had computer labs!!!! Data was input on computer cards and run through programs like SPSS(Statistical Package for Social Sciences). The data centers on college campuses used main frames and any science or social studies major would have used them extensively. They were terminal labs- of course not PC , but used extensively. Just a little lesson for the younger posters and those who didn't work in academic settings. People my age should recall using card punchers, card sorters, bursters, job control language, etc. etc. Most college computer labs had student lab assistants that manned the labs all day and night.
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By PortofLeith
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9 months ago
950 Posts
Re: Re: Thru a Student's Eyes
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish

confidence, I think you may actually be having a stroke, as the article is perfectly legible throughout. Had you been able to make out the first paragraph, you might be frothing over the author's description of the victim as "attractive... tall, trim, well built."

Four victims tied to the same computer lab constitutes a very specific common bond. Other common bonds may apply to a much larger number of victims, such as the Sunrise Mall or the Country Club Center, but these are large public spaces that may be too broad and heavily trafficked to be of any significance. Such is less the case with the CSUS computer lab, in my opinion.

There were about 3,000 male students at CSUS at that time. It's easier, in retrospect, to look for those who have lived in Southern CA (already done) than to have staked out the residences of each, which is primarily what the SCSD's method of elimination was at that time -- before the EAR's non-secretor status was recognized, at least.
I just had soap in my eye, I shouldnt read in the bath.

Journalists are different from public servants of our legal system. Its understood that they write things that they want people to read. Which is also what fiction writers do. Larry Crompton crossed a line when he took rape victim reports and editorialized on how attractive, slutty or weird they were.

Journalists also make errors or outright fabrications in their articles, religiously, and while this is a well-written piece, it has contradictions in it from the Crompton book and the info given to newspaper journalists at the time of the attacks.

And so its confusing, which to believe. Why is an apparently very credible source, Det Carol Daly, quoted as dismissing ears penis as anything less than average -in a public meeting- after its been widely reported as very small by the cops to the press, and in ST, too? The question then becomes, who is in error, who is credible, why was the small-penis detail even given to the press (true or not), and even, why didnt ears get more angry about it? He's a rapist, youd think that would hit him where it hurt.

(I also see that back in 1978 intelligent people were beginning to find the dominant mother theory a little to pat. And the mental illness angle, too. Although there still seems to be something wrong with ears beyond psychopathy, even if it was just OCD.)

Why is a victim quoted as calling him almost apologetic for tying up her daughter, which I dont recall reading from the book. The tying part or the apologetic part. It also always seemed pretty obvious to me that he was manipulating people to do what he wanted. Allow a woman to breathe after binding, gagging and blinding her doesnt mean you feel sorry for her, it just means you want to keep her alive while you rape her.

As for the college connection, it doesnt mention victims in the computer lab. I also dont remember anything mentioned in ST about what the cops did to follow up the lead.

If four victims used the same computer lab, did they use it around the same time, and Im assuming not everyone used the computer lab back in 1977. Did they ever check out the male monitors in there? Theyd have someone watching, a student, to make sure no one messed around with the equipment. Why cant these 4 victims be reinterviewed.


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By the confidence is the balaclava
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9 months ago
469 Posts
Balaclava
Have you read anything besides "Sudden Terror"? Only virgins described EAR as having a normal sized penis. There were political reasons for some in Sacramento LE to disagree with the release of the "mother dominant homophobic little penis" information. I will always call EAR "Little Pinky"- sorry if it offends you, but it is a fact.
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By PortofLeith
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9 months ago
950 Posts
Re: Balaclava
Posted By: PortofLeith
Have you read anything besides "Sudden Terror"? Only virgins described EAR as having a normal sized penis. There were political reasons for some in Sacramento LE to disagree with the release of the "mother dominant homophobic little penis" information. I will always call EAR "Little Pinky"- sorry if it offends you, but it is a fact.

Two women who were married said he was bigger than 1) their husband, and 2) what they thought he would be after reading the press. The virgins all said he was small. But thats not whats the concern, the concern is what Det Carol Daly said and whos right and whos wrong.
And was it only put out there to bait ears? Because why would the public need to know his dick size? You cant protect yourself any more with that detail and presumably by the time you experience his dick size, its too late for you. That could have turned out so unbelievably worse for his victims at that point, having him even more angry.

What political reasons? Come on.

Yes, im so offended for ears when someone says his penis is small or hes a fattie. Its looksism !

Personally, im going with the hotdog comparison because it makes me happy. And it explains why they thought his thighs were so big.
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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 9 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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9 months ago
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To Port re computer labs etc.
Posted By: PortofLeith

At least 4 of his victims used the same computer lab at CSUS. Another victim had been to the campus earlier in the day to meet a friend. This article gives a bit more insight to the the student theory. If EAR were a student on the GI bill it could explain his schedule, prior military experience etc.


www.jjmcgr.org/BK/Clippings/780522.pdf

Speakel- You are correct about the limitations of the Polk directories in relation to apartments. I am particularily interested in the County Center Drive apartment residents and now that dengas mentioned the Lemoore NAS "Sin City" apartments in Visalia, that location as well. Living in an apartment complex gives anonymity and location. Apartments also usually cater to a younger , more nocturnal clientele. I wonder how carefully the apartment dwellers around the Maggiore apartment were questioned?
Thank you for the above article, Port. I have never seen that one. Please keep any nuggets you have coming in. Fresh eyes might spot something or at least add to the general knowledge.
I think that CSUS computer lab is incredibly compelling along with the school schedule and his out of town attacks etc. Your comment about being a student prior to military service also fits. I recall mention on the board about the suspicious car with the assension balloon carrying a rocket being spotted entering the naval base in San Diego. I wonder if his treck down the coast to southern California was because he was going to be going into the navy in San Diego, (Diamond/Lanyard Knot has naval connection), and if he was eventually shipped out accounting for the5 year gap between Domingo/Sanchez and Janel Cruz. I know this has all been discussed before, just felt like rehashing.
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By Sandia
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9 months ago
1329 Posts
guessting @port - Computer lab tie ins??

Would Port be willing to divulge which attacks were CSUS connected? I wonder if there is a pattern. Were they the beginning, middle or ending of a cluster in a certain area? Were they all preplanned?


If EAR was attending CSUS on a GI Bill this would explain his sophistication (as he would be a few years older than many of his peers) his supply of militray garb, the apparent lack of a need to steal money and the free time to commit all these attacks with all the observation and planning required.

An experience as an MP or even a telephone lineman would have given him quite an advantage.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 8 months ago
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By conquistador1521
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9 months ago
388 Posts

[Drifter]

The face of a serial killer ? ? ?

visall.jpg

Fact: Jennifer Armour was last seen talking to a man in a white car by Kmart.

Fact: Donna Richmond's mangled bicycle found on the side of the road had white paint marks. 14 samples of paint were taken off Oscar Clifton's pick up truck and none matched.

Fact: Oscar Clifton had two daughters that attended Mt. Whitney with Beth Snelling.

Fact: Beth Snelling's attempted abduction was blocks away from where Jennifer was last seen.

Fact: Oscar Clifton was rigth handed and the VR was left-handed so we know that it is unlikely he was involved with the Snelling murder.

Fact: The VR was known to frequent the area of where the bodies of Jennifer Armour and Donna Richmond were found.

Question: Was the VR out in the Exeter area looking for Oscar's house when he spotted Donna?

Question: Did the police frame Oscar Clifton for murder because of his criminal background and close proximinty to the abduction?


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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
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SammyT's Question
"What is with all the withholding of evidence?" is in fact the operative question. It's almost like they didn't want to catch him. The bogus "surfer dude" composite being only one example.
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By f1guyus
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2 years ago
1265 Posts
Re: The face of a serial killer ? ? ?

200lbs is the upper limit of what VR was described as weighing, I believe the original estimate was somewhere between 175lbs and 200lbs. He was also wearing a heavy jacket when he was seen. He is a person with a large face and, with his physique concealed by large clothing, he may appear much heavier than he really is. The VR sketch shows a man with a huge brow ridge, large mandible, and a well developed chin with somewhat of a cleft on it. I am referring to the original VR sketch, not the "doughboy" sketch which was made to fit a certain suspect. VR or EAR may have taken steroids although as Sandia points out it is also possible that he did not.
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 2 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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2 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: The face of a serial killer ? ? ?

I just read something on the internet regarding Oscar Clifton, he was an appeal in a case in 1967 where he was convicted for trying to rape a young girl by the St.John's River. He had a stocking over his face. A contractor drove upon the act and the young girl may have escaped with her life. They both identified Oscar as the perpetrator.

After reading that it is very possible he was a rapist who turned into a murderer. Not uncommon from the many shows I've watched. It certainly is very possible he killed both Jennifer and Donna. I knew Jennifer very well and I think about her often and am hoping someday they will catch whoever did it. I am hoping they will open a cold case file and solve her murder.

For those who support Oscar and think the police had some conspiracy read some of the appeals you may think differently about him. After he was arrested the murders stopped. That may say alot.

I have been intrigued by the connection to Jennifer and Donna's murder and the VR. I read where the person burglarizing all the homes took money but left some. I recall I had a coffee cup hidden in my moms closet and someone had stolen some of the money in it and left some. I had no idea until now it may have been the well known burglar. There was a teenager that lived behind us and I thought he may have done it as he had came up to our door when my stepdad was home and when he realized someone was at home he took off. He also knew Jennifer. I don't think he had a car but he did have a bike.


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By sillygirl4u
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5 months ago
2 Posts
Re: I hate to ask the obvious, but...
... have you spoken to the authorities about the person who lived behind you?
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By confidentialtwo
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5 months ago
16 Posts
Initials
Did you know the teenager's name, the one who lived behind you? We're his initials MS, by any chance? Since you went to school withJennifer, did you know Oscar's two daughters?
I am aware of the arrest that you are speaking of. He was 25 at the time of the "attempted rape". When. Donna was murdered, he was was 35.
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By dengas
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5 months ago
966 Posts
Appeals
Posted By: sillygirl4u

I just read something on the internet regarding Oscar Clifton, he was an appeal in a case in 1967 where he was convicted for trying to rape a young girl by the St.John's River. He had a stocking over his face. A contractor drove upon the act and the young girl may have escaped with her life. They both identified Oscar as the perpetrator.

After reading that it is very possible he was a rapist who turned into a murderer. Not uncommon from the many shows I've watched. It certainly is very possible he killed both Jennifer and Donna. I knew Jennifer very well and I think about her often and am hoping someday they will catch whoever did it. I am hoping they will open a cold case file and solve her murder.

For those who support Oscar and think the police had some conspiracy read some of the appeals you may think differently about him. After he was arrested the murders stopped. That may say alot.

I have been intrigued by the connection to Jennifer and Donna's murder and the VR. I read where the person burglarizing all the homes took money but left some. I recall I had a coffee cup hidden in my moms closet and someone had stolen some of the money in it and left some. I had no idea until now it may have been the well known burglar. There was a teenager that lived behind us and I thought he may have done it as he had came up to our door when my stepdad was home and when he realized someone was at home he took off. He also knew Jennifer. I don't think he had a car but he did have a bike.



Silly- i agree that the numerous appeals Clifton filed for previous convictions should be reviewed, especially since one of the crimes included the assault of a young girl on a bike. It also speaks volumes that the Innocence Project became involved with one of his appeals in 2009 and no news since then has been published. dengas, what was the outcome of their assistance? It's been 4 years now - no progress?



www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/43857



Silly- Was Jennifer's murder given much coverage in local news? Her murder was so close in time to the attempted abduction of Beth Snelling, but very few papers covered the Armour murder. Of course, serial killer Sims was operating around the same time abducting and murdering young girls around Fresno.


www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/43857
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Edited by PortofLeith, 5 months ago
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By PortofLeith
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5 months ago
953 Posts

[Drifter]

The face of a serial killer ? ? ?

visall.jpg

Fact: Jennifer Armour was last seen talking to a man in a white car by Kmart.

Fact: Donna Richmond's mangled bicycle found on the side of the road had white paint marks. 14 samples of paint were taken off Oscar Clifton's pick up truck and none matched.

Fact: Oscar Clifton had two daughters that attended Mt. Whitney with Beth Snelling.

Fact: Beth Snelling's attempted abduction was blocks away from where Jennifer was last seen.

Fact: Oscar Clifton was rigth handed and the VR was left-handed so we know that it is unlikely he was involved with the Snelling murder.

Fact: The VR was known to frequent the area of where the bodies of Jennifer Armour and Donna Richmond were found.

Question: Was the VR out in the Exeter area looking for Oscar's house when he spotted Donna?

Question: Did the police frame Oscar Clifton for murder because of his criminal background and close proximinty to the abduction?


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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
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Well said

Actually, her bicycle was in perfect shape, from what I've seen in the pictures. The only odd thing is that the handle bars were turned around facting the wrong direction.



You have an excellent way of summarizing all of the information so that others can see.

Let me tell you what Oscar's brother told me (1983) about 12/24/75. Oscar and his wife were shopping at K-Mart for Christmas. The two girls were outside in the car. Some guy in a "sports car" started harrassing them, so they ran into the store, leaving the car unlocked. (Actually, back then, I don't think locking the car would have entered one's mind). That is when I think that the receipt book and adding machine tape was taken from the car, in an attempt to find out where the girls lived.

The day Donna was murdered there were two other happenings; one in Woodlake, and another in Exeter. A guy in a white pickup was sexually harrassing a young girl in Woodlake. In a line-up, she identified Oscar, but it was an "iffy" identification. She said the guy had a weird voice and acted strange. At the time this was happening (time-line), Oscar was MILES from Woodlake. After Woodlake, the guy in the white pickup exposed himself to a girl who was picking oranges in a orange grove, along with her father and brother. The father and brother chased the guy and said that the pickup was either a (Dodge or Chevy? -- I would have to go back and read the report) based upon the round tail lights. Oscar's white pickup had long skinny tail lights, and the back end of it had black lettering F O R D. The two were right behind the pickup, so how could they not see that it was a FORD, and why would they be so specific on the tail lights? There were no fingerprints, nor hairs, or any evidence of Donna in his pickup. The pickup had not been wiped down, and as you said, the 14 paint samples did not match the white paint that was on Donna's bike.
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By dengas
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2 years ago
959 Posts
Bloody rags
Some of Donna's personal items were found across a dirt road from the abandoned house (about a mile east of Oscar's house). In the yard of the house they also found a bloody rag. It was a white sleeve that had been ripped from a fancy dress shirt. That rag is supposedly being tested for DNA, but what do they expect to find other than Donna's blood?
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By dengas
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2 years ago
959 Posts
Escalation and deescalation

Subclassifications via Reasons for or Existence of Murder


It is my belief based upon viewing the accounts and case studies of serial rapists and serial killers that the sadistic sexual serial perpetrator can be broken into three categories: the rapist, the reluctant killer or rapist who murders to evade detection, and the pleasure killer. It should be understood that the sexual sadist can float between the three; however, it is more common for the sexual sadist to degenerate into serial killer than to deescalate back to serial rapist, but we will observe in some of the case studies examples of notorious serial killers who deescalated or attempted to deescalate.

Of particular interest was the notion that not all sadistic sexual serial murderers intended to commit their first murder, in fact many intended to commit rape; however, due to fear of being caught they kill their victim. Take for example this statement of a serial rapist who eventually progressed to serial killer: “Fear to be revealed, somebody could appear. I hurried up the whole thing and raped her quickly. From a fear to be pointed out, I strangled her” (Kordon & Tidefors, 2009).

It is extemely rare but possible to committ homicides and then revert to rape and then murder again depending on the circumstances. I believe DKK was an extremely rare offender.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
388 Posts
Did the police frame Oscar Clifton
I really hate to say that, but it's possible. I wonder if VR stole those items from Oscar's truck and he framed Oscar. I wonder if the cops/DA whoever now do not want to be embarassed by possibly putting the wrong man in jair for the rest of his life. The taillights, FORD, all those thinks I won't repeat from your above post, dengas, are really enlightening! This is incredible. dengas you told me 222Urit was a victim of the VR and Russ Whitmeyer told her there are fingerprints from a VR case (hers?) yet that has not been released finally putting to rest if VR is EAR/ONS. I think Visalia should be revisited big time. Lots of strange goings on in Visalia. The answer might be there.
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By Sandia
Member
2 years ago
1329 Posts
Did the police frame Oscar?
From reading the details I would say this another classic example of a case were the police were so obsessed with a suspect that they failed to consider the evidence and only took into account anything that supported their view of POI while disregarding any evidence that clears the POI. It seems they wanted Oscar and disregarded anything that would deviate from this ......meanwhile the real culprit has gotten away with it , another problem with cases like this is that once someone gets convicted its harder to change their minds (LE, prosecutors etc) unless something very compelling comes up
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
Re: The face of a serial killer ? ? ?
Dan,
I think you are correct. I wonder what the prosecutor and LE are thinking now. Probably are weighing the options......If there is DNA, and Oscar is cleared, bad bad bad for them.....They are probably rationalizing by saying oh well if Oscar didn't commit this crime, he still committed other bad crimes so it OK that he is in jail....The DA office is so worried about the bad publicity that it would cause if he is innocent, they don't care about the truth.
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By Bear99
Member
2 years ago
270 Posts
The Ransacker Unmasked

There were only two people that we know have that lived to get a good look at the VR. However, only one of them saw him during the daytime. The woman at the store on Walnut Ave saw the subject from about October 1973 to September 1975.


He came in to the store many times to redeem a total of 60 Blue Chip Stamp Books. In today's dollars it would equal about $30,000 in purchases. This would indicate that it is unlikely he obtained these items thru legitimate means. The VR was known to steal a large number of the same books. Besides being a cheap SOB she did mention that at least once he showed his temper and would not leave his telephone number to pick up items later.

She said he was average height about 200 lbs with light brown short hair and about 21 years of age. Thanks to Det. McGowan we also know that he was left handed. After the Snelling murder he ceased business with the store perhaps trying to sever all traceable ties.

Slowly it is all coming together.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts
Worst Thing
This is the worst thing that happens in Law Enforcement. Somebody decides who did it and starts making the facts fit the theory. Not saying it happened here but DNA has cleared a lot of guys. It's why, and the only reason why, I'm opposed to the death penalty.
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By f1guyus
Member
2 years ago
1265 Posts
Re: The face of a serial killer ? ? ?

About the sketch of the VR. One thing that comes to mind is Brett Glasby's highschool yearbook photo (don't worry, I don't think Brett is the EAR/ONS)and how in my opinion he resembled the Pillsbury Doughboy, yet in the newspaper article reporting his death in Mexico at the age of 20, the photo didn't even resemble him in the slightest, at I don't think so. He had apparently lost weight and possibly bulked up. He didn't look skinny at all but looked chiseled. I wonder if that is what happened with the VR and why he doesn't resemble the description or the sketches of the EAR/ONS. Again steroids come to mind, bulking up, muscular, extreme anger. It's just a possibility. If he stopped the steroids, could that account for the possible deescalation of his crimes.
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Edited by Sandia, 2 years ago
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By Sandia
Member
2 years ago
1329 Posts
Re: Worst Thing
Posted By: f1guyus
This is the worst thing that happens in Law Enforcement. Somebody decides who did it and starts making the facts fit the theory. Not saying it happened here but DNA has cleared a lot of guys. It's why, and the only reason why, I'm opposed to the death penalty.
I agree with you f1. That's the only reason I would be against it too.
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1329 Posts
Re: Re: The face of a serial killer ? ? ?
Posted By: Sandia

About the sketch of the VR. One thing that comes to mind is Brett Glasby's highschool yearbook photo (don't worry, I don't think Brett is the EAR/ONS)and how in my opinion he resembled the Pillsbury Doughboy, yet in the newspaper article reporting his death in Mexico at the age of 20, the photo didn't even resemble him in the slightest, at I don't think so. He had apparently lost weight and possibly bulked up. He didn't look skinny at all but looked chiseled. I wonder if that is what happened with the VR and why he doesn't resemble the description or the sketches of the EAR/ONS. Again steroids come to mind, bulking up, muscular, extreme anger. It's just a possibility. If he stopped the steroids, could that account for the possible deescalation of his crimes.
I have always thought that VR and EAR-ONS were one and the same...who knows about steroids but a guy of around 20 could easily have got into weight training, cycling, swimming, running or martial arts and built some muscle whilst shedding some puppy fat.
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By SammyT
Member
2 years ago
433 Posts
EAR's calf muscles

Also if VR started working out, lost 30lbs or so and became EAR-ONS, then the muscular calves of EAR-ONS are perhaps explained.


An untrained husky guy of around 200lbs at average height will generally have a fair amount of muscle (covered by some fat) and his calves in particular will become big from carrying 200lbs around!

Once some weight is lost, the calves will remain bigger and more obviously muscular than say his arms, thighs or chest...don't believe me? Check out the calves on any husky or even obese male - they will always be big - and will remain 'decent' even if weight is lost.

Calves get big from moving heavy loads for high repetitions (or from walking around every day for several years at 200lbs) and as I have mentioned more muscle seems to remain there even after weight loss.

So if EAR was once-upon-a-time the VR, then this could explain how EAR walked around at a lean 160-170lbs, but had noticable muscular calf development.
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Edited by SammyT, 2 years ago
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By SammyT
Member
2 years ago
433 Posts
EAR Calf Muscles

Good point SammyT. That is a definite possibility. All the running around and stalking and surveillance could have led to his weight loss and of course working out. I just thought that the rage factor along with the bulking up might make steroid use a possibility. Who knows.
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Edited by Sandia, 2 years ago
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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1329 Posts
Re: Escalation and deescalation
Posted By: conquistador1521

Subclassifications via Reasons for or Existence of Murder


It is my belief based upon viewing the accounts and case studies of serial rapists and serial killers that the sadistic sexual serial perpetrator can be broken into three categories: the rapist, the reluctant killer or rapist who murders to evade detection, and the pleasure killer. It should be understood that the sexual sadist can float between the three; however, it is more common for the sexual sadist to degenerate into serial killer than to deescalate back to serial rapist, but we will observe in some of the case studies examples of notorious serial killers who deescalated or attempted to deescalate.

Of particular interest was the notion that not all sadistic sexual serial murderers intended to commit their first murder, in fact many intended to commit rape; however, due to fear of being caught they kill their victim. Take for example this statement of a serial rapist who eventually progressed to serial killer: “Fear to be revealed, somebody could appear. I hurried up the whole thing and raped her quickly. From a fear to be pointed out, I strangled her” (Kordon & Tidefors, 2009).

It is extemely rare but possible to committ homicides and then revert to rape and then murder again depending on the circumstances. I believe DKK was an extremely rare offender.

Rare but not unheard of. William Patrick Fyfe was a Canadian serial killer that killed in 1979, then became a serial rapist in the mid 1980's, and then killed another four victims in 1999. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApAeh9hgxPY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLE65AC9656B0BCE7C
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Edited by Repoman, 2 years ago
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By Repoman
Member
2 years ago
1494 Posts
Re: The Ransacker Unmasked
Posted By: conquistador1521

There were only two people that we know have that lived to get a good look at the VR. However, only one of them saw him during the daytime. The woman at the store on Walnut Ave saw the subject from about October 1973 to September 1975.


He came in to the store many times to redeem a total of 60 Blue Chip Stamp Books. In today's dollars it would equal about $30,000 in purchases. This would indicate that it is unlikely he obtained these items thru legitimate means. The VR was known to steal a large number of the same books. Besides being a cheap SOB she did mention that at least once he showed his temper and would not leave his telephone number to pick up items later.

She said he was average height about 200 lbs with light brown short hair and about 21 years of age. Thanks to Det. McGowan we also know that he was left handed. After the Snelling murder he ceased business with the store perhaps trying to sever all traceable ties.

Slowly it is all coming together.

Wow thATs great info; did the woman observe any other interesting things about the guy such as vehicle, peculiar mannerisms,use of certain words ? Was a sketch made made from the womans description of the fella?
I was intrigued by you saying "a cheap SOB" : what info led you to that conclusion?
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Edited by DanCartell, 2 years ago
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
CHEAP SOB

This man steals canned food, children's piggy banks and stamp books! I am surprised he didn't steal teeth under childrens pillows. When he is captured I am sure that him being a cheapskate and probably a real pack rat will be well known.
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts
Redemption Stamp Store Woman Witness
Dan, dengas told me that the woman did go to the police station and she actually drew a sketch of the suspect herself. The police have it and have not released it. My question....Why Not? This is inexplicable to me.
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By Sandia
Member
2 years ago
1329 Posts
Suspect

As I have been saying for a while, with regards to this case, LE have been about as useful as a deckchair on the Titanic!


What is with all the withholding of evidence?

This new information would reveal that THREE witnesses who saw either VR or EAR-ONS sans mask resulted in NO viable composite sketches being released to the public!! Yet we have countless less accurate sketches which have been released...who on earth is making these decisions??!

Conquistador, thank you for all your recent information and though provoking theories, but I was wondering how you would tally VR's cheapskate approach with the seemingly blase approach towards money of EAR-ONS.

If VR became EAR, then did he at some point inherit money, receive a trust fund or get a well paid job?

What would account for such a cheapskate and opportunist to leave $1500 in cash behind at a later crime scene?
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Edited by SammyT, 2 years ago
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By SammyT
Member
2 years ago
433 Posts
Re: Suspect
Posted By: SammyT

As I have been saying for a while, with regards to this case, LE have been about as useful as a deckchair on the Titanic!


What is with all the withholding of evidence?

This new information would reveal that THREE witnesses who saw either VR or EAR-ONS sans mask resulted in NO viable composite sketches being released to the public!! Yet we have countless less accurate sketches which have been released...who on earth is making these decisions??!

Conquistador, thank you for all your recent information and though provoking theories, but I was wondering how you would tally VR's cheapskate approach with the seemingly blase approach towards money of EAR-ONS.

If VR became EAR, then did he at some point inherit money, receive a trust fund or get a well paid job?

What would account for such a cheapskate and opportunist to leave $1500 in cash behind at a later crime scene?
I think he didn't take the $1500 because he wasn't a true thief. Stealing was not his primary motivation. If he made a habit of taking large amounts of cash people around him (girlfriend or wife) might notice his windfall. He attacked the women and ransacked homes because he felt the people deserved it. He stole petty cash and stamps because it was totally untraceable and he got a kick out of getting something for free. Only a compulsive cheap skate would get a kick out of stealing rolls of pennies or piggy banks.
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By Repoman
Member
2 years ago
1494 Posts
Re: Redemption Stamp Store Woman Witness
Posted By: Sandia
Dan, dengas told me that the woman did go to the police station and she actually drew a sketch of the suspect herself. The police have it and have not released it. My question....Why Not? This is inexplicable to me.
What the police did is not encouraging, this is the sort of lead which would have lead to solid information if it had been released back then when he was still living in that area; thats another thing about this case..............there is a good deal of information- it just needs to be revealed and dots connected and it could lead somewere , the store womans information is another opportunity that was lost to apprehend the fella and more than 3 decades later we are still scratching our heads!
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts

[Drifter]

Contra Costa County Con Artist

In the confirmed EAR attacks in Sacramento and the surrounding areas 27% were Saturdays.

In the confirmed EAR attacks in the Bay Area 54% were Saturdays.

In fact attacks #38,#40,#41,#42,#43, and #45 were all on Saturdays.

Reasons for attacking in the Bay Area

1. Neutralize Sac LE. Out of sight out of mind, they would devote fewer resources to capturing him.

2. Neutralize Bay Are LE. All their canvassing would be near pointless since he had no connections to these neighborhoods.

3. Convince whoever had suspicions on him in Sac that he had left town. He purposely spoke to the rape victims in the Bay Area to make thm think that he had been following them. Det Crompton believes it. I do not. This offender selected neighborhoods to attack in and would not risk having him or his vehicle seen in broad daylight.

4. After the Sac Union article in Feb 1978 linking him to possible crimes in Visalia he would be too cautious to live in a third separate geographic location as where he committed the crimes.

I believe that he commuted to the Bay Area from Sacramento. The extra commuting time would explain the 100% increase in Saturday attacks.

5. I believe the fact that he did not change MO probably indicates it was a ruse. He had no concerns of being a recent transplant from Sacramento becuase he wasn't. I have come to the conclusion that since EAR/ONS changed MO in So Cal he most likely did relocate down there. (This will please SOE.)
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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago
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By conquistador1521
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2 years ago
388 Posts

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Re: THE GREAT SCAM
Posted By: conquistador1521

www.jjmcgr.org/BK/Clippings/780522.pdf


"Thank God he moved to Stockton' could be heard everywhere - except in Stockton."

There is strong evidence that the EAR is a part- or full-time Cal State University Sacramento student or faculty member. His attack dates seem to coincide with CSUS Sessions. - Det. Blevins

If EAR was a CSUS student and he knew LE were working this angle this would be a serious problem. You combine this fact that the VR connection had been discussed in the newspapers previously could have spelled then end of his freedom. So if your EAR what do you do?? You make LE think you left town. The last thing you want is LE looking for SAC State students who used to live in the Central Valley. It worked brilliantly. If EAR was only attending classes 3 days a week, this would give him plenty of time to do his surveilance activities, burglaries etc in the Bay Area.

Also it is interesting to note that the last Rancho Cordova attack was on 3/20/1979. This would have been at the start of the Spring recess. This was in direct conflict with the article mentioned above about EAR following the CSUS schedule. One of his games. This leads me to believe that he not only read this article but was changing his patterns to conflict with it.
EAR was actively prowling the Concord neighborhood he targeted for pretty much the entire week leading up to #38. That's 10/2/78 through 10/7/78. This doesn't jibe with your pronouncements.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
Member
8 months ago
1090 Posts
Computer Lab Connection ? ? ?
I think SOE would agree with me that it would be helpful to know which attacks were the ones connected to the computer lab to look for a possible connection.
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By conquistador1521
Member
8 months ago
388 Posts
To Conquistador and Speakel

Really good points in the above posts. I thinks Conquistador makes a really compelling theory, actually brilliant!

Speakel, do you mainly disagree with him because of the weeks activity before the attack of 10/07/78? I just want to understand your reasoning. If that is the main reason, could that actually jibe in with Conquistador's theory that EAR/ONS wanted to throw LE off his trail. Could this have been intentional?

I don't actually buy into Conquistador's theory but I think it is a real possibility and makes sense except for the extensive traveling he had to do for 10 subsequent attacks not to mention the trips he would have had to make for the reconnaissance he did.

Another fascinating fact is the meeting LE had on 8/15/78 warning Contra Costa county that EAR/ONS was likely to strike there next. What??? How would they know that? Was it because he had started prowling and breaking in with his signature M.O. before his first attack in Concord on 10/7/78? Or did he write another letter that has not been made known or a call taunting them? If so wouldn't Larry Crompton reveal that? Something big is missing. How would LE know that?


One more question, in Sudden Terror the first Concord attack of 10/07/78 is #37 and you both are referring to it as #38? Are you including another attack that is not listed? The Maggiori attack?
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Edited by Sandia, 8 months ago
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By Sandia
Member
8 months ago
1382 Posts
Re: Contra Costa County Con Artist

Crompton said they thought he'd be moving south and the area matched the kind of places he had been hunting in previously.

Conq, Maybe someone/s has some info to contradict your theory and doesnt want to play their hand. Or maybe that is their hand and they dont want to share the kudos they think they have coming with you. I notice throughout the threads there's this 'I know something that you dont know!' song being played. Whether it's true or not.
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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 8 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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8 months ago
469 Posts