Set 20

[Drifter]

Bird with a Broken Wing (Crowd Source)

Please donate towards the production of "Bird with a Broken Wing" by clicking the link below.

Also, don't forget to share with family, friends, other web boards, etc. Thank you!



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I Know That Your Heart Is In The Right Place

However, based on your the vibe from your poster and the previous movies you have made, I don't think you are the right guy to make this film. I find your work to be distasteful and insensitive. Maybe there is a reason why different groups have expressed similar concerns to you. Maybe you should take a break and try and hear what they are saying.

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Edited by Repoman, 3 months ago

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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I Know That Your Heart Is In The Right Place

However, based on your the vibe from your poster and the previous movies you have made, I don't think you are the right guy to make this film. I find your work to be distasteful and insensitive. Maybe there is a reason why different groups have expressed similar concerns to you. Maybe you should take a break and try and hear what they are saying.

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Edited by Repoman, 3 months ago

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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Here's An Example

ablogofhorror.com/a-real-life-horror-tale-an-interview-with-filmmaker-cameron-cloutier/
You want me to donate to this kind of crap? You must be out of your * mind.

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Edited by Repoman, 3 months ago

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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Repoman

Think all you want that I'm not the right guy to make this film, but Janelle's family, as well as many others, do. That is what counts.

Maybe if you actually read the interview I gave in that link, you'd feel differently.

That being said, because this story has true aspects of horror to it (whether you want to admit it or not), the horror film community is interested in the creation of this film.

I would be a fool not to take them up on their offer to do an interview or have a story written about it. You do realize that the making of this film has played a role in getting this case more exposure, right?

Keep in mind, the movie I am making is not a horror film--but one that has horror in it. How can it not?

I don't expect you to donate, Repoman. I didn't post the link for you. I did it so the people who do support me, who read this board, can find me to support this project--if not in financing, then in spreading the word.

And before you pollute this thread any longer with your warped misunderstandings (and filthy words), keep in mind that the film was mentioned on ABC the other night.

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Edited by MovieMan, 3 months ago

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By MovieMan
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3 months ago
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Re: Bird with a Broken Wing (Crowd Source)

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Edited by MovieMan, 3 months ago

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By MovieMan
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3 months ago
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Re: Repoman
Posted By: MovieMan

Think all you want that I'm not the right guy to make this film, but Janelle's family, as well as many others, do. That is what counts.

Maybe if you actually read the interview I gave in that link, you'd feel differently.

That being said, because this story has true aspects of horror to it (whether you want to admit it or not), the horror film community is interested in the creation of this film.

I would be a fool not to take them up on their offer to do an interview or have a story written about it. You do realize that the making of this film has played a role in getting this case more exposure, right?

Keep in mind, the movie I am making is not a horror film--but one that has horror in it. How can it not?

I don't expect you to donate, Repoman. I didn't post the link for you. I did it so the people who do support me, who read this board, can find me to support this project--if not in financing, then in spreading the word.

And before you pollute this thread any longer with your warped misunderstandings (and filthy words), keep in mind that the film was mentioned on ABC the other night.
I deeply apologize that my filthy words have offended you. The world doesn't need another horror movie. I don't give a rats ass if they mentioned your film on TV. Half of what is on TV is pure crap. I know that your heart is in the right place. I just think that your brain has been marinating in horror films for so long that you can't even see why the tone of your poster is distasteful. Or why the fact that you see to be obsessed with horror films might be a concern to me and others. Or the fact that all the websites that you have been interviewed on are dripping in blood horror film sites might be offensive. If you want to make a documentary with horror in it. Then go ahead. It is a free country and I strongly believe in free speech. Why don't you work a couple of extra jobs for a year or two save up some money and then go make what ever kind of movie you feel like. I just can't take the nerve of your entitlement generation having the gall to come around asking for others to pay for your misguided hobbies. And I did read the interview. In fact I have read every interview that has been linked here. Why should the people of this board give you $800,000 to make a film? Wouldn't we be better off spending our money in other ways to promote this case?

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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Re: Repoman
Posted By: MovieMan

Think all you want that I'm not the right guy to make this film, but Janelle's family, as well as many others, do. That is what counts.

Maybe if you actually read the interview I gave in that link, you'd feel differently.

That being said, because this story has true aspects of horror to it (whether you want to admit it or not), the horror film community is interested in the creation of this film.

I would be a fool not to take them up on their offer to do an interview or have a story written about it. You do realize that the making of this film has played a role in getting this case more exposure, right?

Keep in mind, the movie I am making is not a horror film--but one that has horror in it. How can it not?

I don't expect you to donate, Repoman. I didn't post the link for you. I did it so the people who do support me, who read this board, can find me to support this project--if not in financing, then in spreading the word.

And before you pollute this thread any longer with your warped misunderstandings (and filthy words), keep in mind that the film was mentioned on ABC the other night.
I deeply apologize that my filthy words have offended you. The world doesn't need another horror movie. I don't give a rats ass if they mentioned your film on TV. Half of what is on TV is pure crap. I know that your heart is in the right place. I just think that your brain has been marinating in horror films for so long that you can't even see why the tone of your poster is distasteful. Or why the fact that you see to be obsessed with horror films might be a concern to me and others. Or the fact that all the websites that you have been interviewed on are dripping in blood horror film sites might be offensive. If you want to make a documentary with horror in it. Then go ahead. It is a free country and I strongly believe in free speech. Why don't you work a couple of extra jobs for a year or two save up some money and then go make what ever kind of movie you feel like. I just can't take the nerve of your entitlement generation having the gall to come around asking for others to pay for your misguided hobbies. And I did read the interview. In fact I have read every interview that has been linked here. Why should the people of this board give you $800,000 to make a film? Wouldn't we be better off spending our money in other ways to promote this case?

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
1494 Posts

grants

Movieman- Have you sourced any grants? There are sometimes great funding opportunities from private organizations? The horror of this story doesn't originate with gore for me. It is a story so primal that the horror is generated by the normal sounds of the night- a furnace clicking on, a dog's bark, a pine cone falling on a rooftop. I'm not an artist, but I have always visualized a movie about this case opening with a pan of a nightstand with a detectives badge and gun on it, sleeping man and woman in bed and then the click of a thermostat in a hallway -then the man's eyes open immediately, he sits upright and reaches for the gun. That is the true horror of this story- the ordinariness of life suddenly transformed into terror by this monster- whether he was there or not.


www.tribecafilminstitute.org/filmmakers/tfi_documentary/about/

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Edited by PortofLeith, 3 months ago

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By PortofLeith
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3 months ago
950 Posts

Re: grants
Posted By: PortofLeith
Movieman- Have you sourced any grants? There are sometimes great funding opportunities from private organizations>
www.tribecafilminstitute.org/filmmakers/tfi_documentary/about/

Yeah. Go ask them.

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Edited by Repoman, 3 months ago

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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$242
I see that you are up to $242. I have to ask how much are you pitching in? If you believe in this project then why don't you leverage everything that you have and make it? At least then you can say I sold everything that I own and I just need some folks to donate and match what I'm throwing in myself. You do that and I might even contribute. Right now you just like the guy in front of the grocery store with his hand out. You can't ask others to believe in your film more than you do.

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
1494 Posts

My entitlement generation?

Repoman writes: I deeply apologize that my filthy words have offended you.

I say: You should be.

Repoman writes: The world doesn't need another horror movie.

I say: You're right. Again, my film is not a horror movie. It's not a documentary either. It's a feature film.

Repoman writes: I just think that your brain has been marinating in horror films for so long that you can't even see why the tone of your poster is distasteful.

I say: Funny, that poster shows in one image what the film is going to be about. Distasteful? The poster is clearly pro Janelle and her family is happy with it.

Repoman writes: Or why the fact that you see to be obsessed with horror films might be a concern to me and others. Or the fact that all the websites that you have been interviewed on are dripping in blood horror film sites might be offensive.

I say: I am not obsessed with horror films. I barely watch them. Also, I am not responsible for what websites do with their backgrounds. If someone in the media wants to talk with me about the film, and it gets the cases more attention, I will.

Repoman writes: Why don't you work a couple of extra jobs for a year or two save up some money and then go make what ever kind of movie you feel like. I just can't take the nerve of your entitlement generation having the gall to come around asking for others to pay for your misguided hobbies.

I say: Welcome to the 21st century. I do have money of my own set aside for the film, but a real movie costs more than what an independent filmmaker has. That's where crowdsourcing, or fundraising comes in. You don't have to like it, but millions of people, of all ages, do it now. It helps people know a project, or whatever it is you're raising money for, needs support.

As for me, being entitled... you're insane. I work my tail off, full time, then come home and work another 14 or so hours. I am not part of the me generation. Infact, I've spent the last four years of my life trying to get Janelle, and the other victim's stories, out there.

Repoman writes: Why should the people of this board give you $800,000 to make a film? Wouldn't we be better off spending our money in other ways to promote this case?

I say: Not asking them too. But maybe someone knows someone who would be willing to throw in a dollar. That's how crowd sourcing works, my friend. You have to let people know a project exists.

That being said, a real feature film made about this subject would open the floodgates and get EVERYONE talking about these cases--and not just true crime buffs.



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By MovieMan
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3 months ago
297 Posts

You Don't Watch Horror Films?
"I am not obsessed with horror films. I barely watch them."
Cameron I deeply apologize for my filthy language and for accussing you of being really into horror films. I think what happened is that I confused you with a different guy (with the same exact name) also from Monteray that is really into Clockwork Orange, Hannibal etc. Now that I know that you are not that guy. I apologize. That Cameron seems to really be into these kinds of films. In fact he spends a lot of time writing reviews where he compares these films at length. Again I apologize for confusing you guys.

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
1494 Posts

Re: Bird with a Broken Wing (Crowd Source)

I strongly disagree with Repoman in this thread.

As someone who has published some seven hundred movie reviews at IMDb and written a screenplay myself, I can tell Repoman there is a difference between MovieMan's film and a horror story. That difference is ... genre.

A horror story is a work of fiction. The films by Dario Argento are rightly designated as "horror" films; they are all fiction.

"Bird With A Broken Wing" will not be a fictional story ... at least if the script doesn't veer too far from the facts as we know them.

The correct genre for MovieMan's film would be either film documentary, or drama, or thriller, or bio, possibly a combo of all four.

Where MovieMan gets his money is irrelevant. If horror fans want to contribute $ to MovieMan's project ... fine and dandy. Repoman, you must keep in mind the difficulty of making a film ... any film.

Hollywood studios routinely invest milliions of dollars on a film's production; and the result ... the movie bombs! But those studios have deep, deep pockets. They can afford to make flops. An individual cannot. The business of indie film production is daunting! For every indie film that gets released, there are hundreds or thousands that don't.

For these reasons, and for the publicity that "Bird With A Broken Wing" can generate for this criminal case, I'm more than willing to watch "Bird With A Broken Wing" and give it a positive recommendation at IMDb if it even remotely measures up to my standards. I have done that for other indie producers.

I think Repoman has gotten hung-up on the word "horror", and mistakingly assumed that "Bird With A Broken Wing" will be ... just another silly horror film directed at a juvenile audience.



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Edited by Drifter, 3 months ago

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By Drifter
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3 months ago
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Janelle Cruz Documentary

MM,

If I may chime in here, I have mentioned this to you before, so I will take the opportunity to mention it again. I would like to see a feature-length documentary on Janelle Cruz. Not only would it help the case, it might help with the financing for your proposed film. The shortcomings with the docs on the EAR/ONS case is that they were limited by the TV format. The longest doc was the THS Investigates at an hour long. Subtract from that the commercials and it's actual runtime was 45 minutes or less.

45 minutes (or less) dedicated to a case which spanned (at the time) 33 years. There just is not enough time to do the case any justice, as good as those docs were. Even the film "Zodiac" cut out some of the crimes as well as letters/ciphers and the film's runtime was 158 minutes. BTW, Zodiac had an excellent documentary as an extra on the DVD/Blu Ray.

2 hours dedicated to Janelle Cruz' life is possible. I think she was shortchanged anyway. Her death received scant news coverage back in 1986. Same with Manuela Witthuhn. The documentary could follow two tracks -- Janelle's path from birth to 18 years old and the EAR/ONS path from Sacramento to Irvine and finally where the two paths inexorably crossed.

So far, the most powerful and moving footage about Janelle came from you interviewing her mother and her recounting the "white dress" story. Let me know if you will pass on this idea. I know someone who works in the doc biz and is in contact with a lot of indie doc producers. I will pass the idea on to her.

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Edited by Archangel76, 3 months ago

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By Archangel76
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3 months ago
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Re: Re: Bird with a Broken Wing (Crowd Source)
Posted By: Drifter

I strongly disagree with Repoman in this thread.

As someone who has published some seven hundred movie reviews at IMDb and written a screenplay myself, I can tell Repoman there is a difference between MovieMan's film and a horror story. That difference is ... genre.

A horror story is a work of fiction. The films by Dario Argento are rightly designated as "horror" films; they are all fiction.

"Bird With A Broken Wing" will not be a fictional story ... at least if the script doesn't veer too far from the facts as we know them.

The correct genre for MovieMan's film would be either film documentary, or drama, or thriller, or bio, possibly a combo of all four.

Where MovieMan gets his money is irrelevant. If horror fans want to contribute $ to MovieMan's project ... fine and dandy. Repoman, you must keep in mind the difficulty of making a film ... any film.

Hollywood studios routinely invest milliions of dollars on a film's production; and the result ... the movie bombs! But those studios have deep, deep pockets. They can afford to make flops. An individual cannot. The business of indie film production is daunting! For every indie film that gets released, there are hundreds or thousands that don't.

For these reasons, and for the publicity that "Bird With A Broken Wing" can generate for this criminal case, I'm more than willing to watch "Bird With A Broken Wing" and give it a positive recommendation at IMDb if it even remotely measures up to my standards. I have done that for other indie producers.

I think Repoman has gotten hung-up on the word "horror", and mistakingly assumed that "Bird With A Broken Wing" will be ... just another silly horror film directed at a juvenile audience.



Or maybe it was the fact the Cameron has crime scene photos of the victims bodies in the promo for this film. Maybe I took that the wrong way. Now that I know that Cameron doesn't even like horror films.....well you can imagine how foolish I feel.

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Edited by Repoman, 3 months ago

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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Drifter
How much can we put you down for? This Movie isn't going to make itself. If you donate enough you can get your name in the credits.

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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Re: Bird with a Broken Wing (Crowd Source)
I just want to say I DO NOT believe this is the place to solicit funds for your movie. I find it offensive and so do some victim's and their families. Cameron I have held my stance on this since day one and I know it seemed you took it to be an assassination of your character. It is not. I just feel there's a time and place for everything. In my opinion this is not the time or place. Nothing personal. I promise.

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By guessting
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3 months ago
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Re: Drifter
Posted By: Repoman
How much can we put you down for? This Movie isn't going to make itself. If you donate enough you can get your name in the credits.

"...you can get your name in the credits".

----------------------------------------------
Oh please! I implied no such motivation.

Further, your critique is a put-down of anyone who contributes financial support to all indie films.

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Edited by Drifter, 3 months ago

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By Drifter
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3 months ago
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Re: Re: Bird with a Broken Wing (Crowd Source)
Posted By: guessting
I just want to say I DO NOT believe this is the place to solicit funds for your movie. I find it offensive and so do some victim's and their families. Cameron I have held my stance on this since day one and I know it seemed you took it to be an assassination of your character. It is not. I just feel there's a time and place for everything. In my opinion this is not the time or place. Nothing personal. I promise.
Thanks guessting.

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By Repoman
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3 months ago
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[Drifter]

Murderous Intent

The Visalia Ransacker exhibited murderous intent when he shot Prof. Snelling. Once the VR heard Prof. Snelling coming after his daughter, the VR had the option of just leaving. He, instead, waited for Prof. Snelling to come out the back door. He then shot him in cold blood. And then shot him again. And then he kicked Beth Snelling in the face.

The EAR exhibited no such murderous intent until Offerman/Manning. The VR wanted to shoot Prof. Snelling. That is why he waited for him instead of just running off. He displayed the same sick murderous intent with Det. McGowen. It was McGowen's flashlight that saved his life.

I do not think anyone could argue against describing the VR as a murderer not a rapist. (Although it is reasonable to conclude that may have been his original intent). But no one knows what the VR would have done with Beth Snelling after he was through with whatever he had planned. I do not think that she would have lived to tell us. He murdered one person and attempted to murder a peace officer. He raped no one. The EAR was a rapist not a murderer until 12/30/79 even though he was thinking about it. The VR didn't think about it. He just did it.

In the Rodney Miller situation, whoever shot him knew that Rod Miller was not going to stop chasing after him. Once the EAR hopped a few fences, most people (including Stan Los) stopped following him. Rod Miller was an 18 year old and was going to follow the prowler wherever he went. The VR hit McGowen's flashlight with no problem (thinking that McGowen's head was behind it).

Rod Miller was shot in the gut. Rod Miller's head would have been the perfect target as that would have been the first thing visible. The VR would have taken him out. That is the difference I see in comparing the two shootings. The act of waiting for the victim to come over the fence is similar between McGowen's and Miller's shooting.

The murderous intent is vastly different.
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Edited by Archangel76, 5 months ago
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By Archangel76
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5 months ago
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You raise some......

very interesting points regarding differences and they certainly are worth some very serious consideration regarding differences between the offenders........

On the other side of the argument thre are odd quirks and similarities between EAR and VR which are quite interesting, hence the question is how do you explain them away ? since the list of similarities is quite long I cant just dismiss them as coincidence between two offenders......

What I am trying to get to here is a third possibility that I had never considered : supposing EAR is not VR -yet they share some similar characteristics- is it possible that these two may have come across each other at some type of institution like the slammer or a mental hospital and then shared or picked ideas of MO ? Certain things about EAR have led me to wonder if he did some time in the slammer .......
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By DanCartell
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5 months ago
683 Posts
Odd Quirks

Both offenders had similar quirks with regard to "bizarre burglaries". One of the tell-tale signs of the Ransacker is that he would spread women's undergarments throughout the house as part of his ritual. No such ritual in the EAR's burglaries. If that kind of ransacking was done even once in those early EAR pre-rape burglaries from April 1976 to June 1976, I might have the opposite opinion. That does not compute. That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences. That murderous intent. The VR had it when he shot Prof. Snelling and shot at Det. McGowen. The EAR did not exhibit a propensity for murder until 12/30/79.
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Edited by Archangel76, 5 months ago
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By Archangel76
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5 months ago
2156 Posts
Re: Odd Quirks
Posted By: Archangel76

Both offenders had similar quirks with regard to "bizarre burglaries". One of the tell-tale signs of the Ransacker is that he would spread women's undergarments throughout the house as part of his ritual. No such ritual in the EAR's burglaries. If that kind of ransacking was done even once in those early EAR pre-rape burglaries from April 1976 to June 1976, I might have the opposite opinion. That does not compute. That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences. That murderous intent. The VR had it when he shot Prof. Snelling and shot at Det. McGowen. The EAR did not exhibit a propensity for murder until 12/30/79.
If youre going on just this theory, the continuum of violence and what you believe to be ear's 'intent', then things can seem pretty solid.

When you let in the idea that ear stopped to shoot the kid, like VR stopped to shot the father, then things get questionable. When you add that 'ear' (because we think it was ear) shot the kid at close range from below as the kid was coming over the fence, then youd have to admit that you cannot be sure that he didnt mean to get him in the gut, that he was going for the heart, throat, head... and when youre being chased and you stop to ambush the chaser and shoot him in motion at close range, dont you automatically take on the intent that doing so might be fatal? And if it was fatal, and especially if ear was vr, then he would most likely think, So what? He shouldnt have been chasing me; he got what he deserved. Because both VR and Ears were psychopaths.

But I think the biggest area of reservation I have with your argument is that you believe one of two things he said cannot co-exist. The bakersfield comment could have been a lie. It could also have been a truth couched in a lie (that the people he killed were in bakersfield). We both think he's too smart too tell LE where he killed anyone, had he even done it.

The second thing he said, I believe to be the truth. Ears did tell the truth sometimes. We know he did in his poem. He did move south (at least to commit more crimes there). He told the truth about adding the 'mafia wife' to his list of recent conquests. He probably was telling the truth about how his leisure tempted him to his crimes, whether that meant leisure time from school, or work, or that he didnt work at all and led a life of leisure/crime is questionable, but we know for a fact that he spent a lot of 'leisure' time on his hobby/lifestyle.

I believe he was also telling the truth when he said that he was going to kill. And I believe that he was being specific to his rape crimes as the EAR. I believe that from his perspective, these fantasy crimes were special to any other crimes he may have committed, and that as he realized how successful he was in making them real and eluding LE, that it became a game for him. As far as LE knew about ears, he had never killed anyone, so it wouldnt serve ear to being up any murders had there even been any. But I do believe 100% that when he mentions killing, he mentions it specifically to the rape crimes he's been known for to the LE. I also think he's so keyed up when he talks about it not because he's mad at the cops as half as he's excited thinking about killing his rape victims. Which we know he eventually did, and because it probably excited him to do so.
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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5 months ago
469 Posts
Re: Odd Quirks
Posted By: Archangel76

Both offenders had similar quirks with regard to "bizarre burglaries". One of the tell-tale signs of the Ransacker is that he would spread women's undergarments throughout the house as part of his ritual. No such ritual in the EAR's burglaries. If that kind of ransacking was done even once in those early EAR pre-rape burglaries from April 1976 to June 1976, I might have the opposite opinion. That does not compute. That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences. That murderous intent. The VR had it when he shot Prof. Snelling and shot at Det. McGowen. The EAR did not exhibit a propensity for murder until 12/30/79.
Arch wrote: "That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences".

Oh but they are not minor differences. They are major differences. You are describing totally separate, contrasting behavioral patterns, en route to a perfectly logical conclusion.

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By Drifter
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5 months ago
371 Posts
Re: Re: Odd Quirks
Posted By: Drifter
Posted By: Archangel76

Both offenders had similar quirks with regard to "bizarre burglaries". One of the tell-tale signs of the Ransacker is that he would spread women's undergarments throughout the house as part of his ritual. No such ritual in the EAR's burglaries. If that kind of ransacking was done even once in those early EAR pre-rape burglaries from April 1976 to June 1976, I might have the opposite opinion. That does not compute. That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences. That murderous intent. The VR had it when he shot Prof. Snelling and shot at Det. McGowen. The EAR did not exhibit a propensity for murder until 12/30/79.
Arch wrote: "That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences".

Oh but they are not minor differences. They are major differences. You are describing totally separate, contrasting behavioral patterns, en route to a perfectly logical conclusion.

Drifter,

You are right. They are two completely different paraphilias. As Balaclava pointed out, the VR exhibited to fascination or fixation on women's undergarments. No such fixation from the EAR. That is a major clue that we're dealing with two separate offenders.
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Edited by Archangel76, 5 months ago
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By Archangel76
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5 months ago
2156 Posts
Mixing Lies with the Truth

TCITB,

I hear what you are saying and it is possible that the EAR was mixing a little truth with lies. And if the EAR is also the VR, that would be the only way to interpret those contradictory statements. However, I am looking at the context in which the statement was made.

"Those f*****s, those f*****s, those pigs. I’ve never killed (any of my rape victims) before, but I’m going to now.

First, the person who shot Prof. Snelling needed little justification to kill. The psych profile of the EAR said that once the EAR killed, he would need less justification to kill again. (As is what happened in Southern CA). So what do the "pigs" do? They not only report the attack to the media. They release the psych profile basically calling the EAR a latent homosexual and say that he is inadequately endowed.

How does the EAR react? He does not kill his next two victims. He does not kill anyone until over two years later. Many of those victims provided him with adequate justification (if he had already overcome his reluctance to kill).

The potential Visalia link was reported May 18th, 1977. So the cat was out of the bag. 10 days later on May 28, 1977, what better way to react to the clear provocation by the SCSD than to tell the next two victims that he had already killed? Or better yet, to make good on his threat. I do not think that the VR would have any problem doing that.

He was already angry with the police. Now they publicly call him a closet homosexual and tell everyone that he had a tiny pecker. And what is the EAR's reaction? (who is supposed to be the VR who already killed and shot at one of their own?)

He reiterates his threat. Does not kill anyone and instead, moves on to Stockton. That is what Dr. Jekyll would do. Mr. Hyde would kill two people and blame it on "those pigs" for not doing what he told them to do.
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Edited by Archangel76, 5 months ago
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By Archangel76
Member
5 months ago
2156 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Odd Quirks
Posted By: Archangel76
Posted By: Drifter
Posted By: Archangel76

Both offenders had similar quirks with regard to "bizarre burglaries". One of the tell-tale signs of the Ransacker is that he would spread women's undergarments throughout the house as part of his ritual. No such ritual in the EAR's burglaries. If that kind of ransacking was done even once in those early EAR pre-rape burglaries from April 1976 to June 1976, I might have the opposite opinion. That does not compute. That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences. That murderous intent. The VR had it when he shot Prof. Snelling and shot at Det. McGowen. The EAR did not exhibit a propensity for murder until 12/30/79.
Arch wrote: "That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences".

Oh but they are not minor differences. They are major differences. You are describing totally separate, contrasting behavioral patterns, en route to a perfectly logical conclusion.

Drifter,

You are right. They are two completely different paraphilias. As Balaclava pointed out, the VR exhibited to fascination or fixation on women's undergarments. No such fixation from the EAR. That is a major clue that we're dealing with two separate offenders.
Oh but they are not really major differences. Sexual sadists dont have one or two paraphilias, they have a smorgesbord of them, on a revolving lazy susan. A major one for ears was bondage, obviously/ Was there ever evidence of a bondage fixation in VR crime scenes? Rope, laces, clothes, anything tied left in the homes as a symbolic signature by the VR?

As far as crank calls go, VR/EAR could have just discovered them in the VR crimes, and then used them on the women he raped as a means of control through terror in the EAR crimes.

The lingerie. VR could do weird obsessive stuff with them and use them for sexual gratification because he didnt have a real person to do that to. Ears did have a woman or girl right there in front of him, so then he didnt need to fuss around with lingerie then. Symbolic violence to women turned actual violence on them.


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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
5 months ago
469 Posts
Re: Mixing Lies with the Truth
Posted By: Archangel76

TCITB,

I hear what you are saying and it is possible that the EAR was mixing a little truth with lies. And if the EAR is also the VR, that would be the only way to interpret those contradictory statements. However, I am looking at the context in which the statement was made.

"Those f*****s, those f*****s, those pigs. I’ve never killed (any of my rape victims) before, but I’m going to now.

First, the person who shot Prof. Snelling needed little justification to kill. The psych profile of the EAR said that once the EAR killed, he would need less justification to kill again. (As is what happened in Southern CA). So what do the "pigs" do? They not only report the attack to the media. They release the psych profile basically calling the EAR a latent homosexual and say that he is inadequately endowed.

How does the EAR react? He does not kill his next two victims. He does not kill anyone until over two years later. Many of those victims provided him with adequate justification (if he had already overcome his reluctance to kill).

The potential Visalia link was reported May 18th, 1977. So the cat was out of the bag. 10 days later on May 28, 1977, what better way to react to the clear provocation by the SCSD than to tell the next two victims that he had already killed? Or better yet, to make good on his threat. I do not think that the VR would have any problem doing that.

He was already angry with the police. Now they publicly call him a closet homosexual and tell everyone that he had a tiny pecker. And what is the EAR's reaction? (who is supposed to be the VR who already killed and shot at one of their own?)

He reiterates his threat. Does not kill anyone and instead, moves on to Stockton. That is what Dr. Jekyll would do. Mr. Hyde would kill two people and blame it on "those pigs" for not doing what he told them to do.
Again, they mentioned the escalation of violence to murder within the context of his fantasy crimes; from rape to rape&murder, I believe. (As is what happened in SoCal.)

Im not sure of the timeline wrt the cops saying he was an underendowed man in a homosexual panic, but the effect it has on him is to make him mad at the cops. ( And maybe try out a penis extender, once.) He says that he's going to kill "them" (LE/the pigs) He's not extra mad at the women he ties up and rapes, after that news comes out. He didnt take his anger about those specific things out on any of them. His anger grew in a general way as the attacks went on, but it was a natural progression. He thought of the women as things he collected, toys; they had no agency. He was *ed at the cops who were *ing with him, challenging his power.

Cant you just say that he hadnt worked himself up to the next level of violence in his attacks? That has to do with some other things, too, like maybe he wasnt so bored of raping and terrorizing them at that point? That it was plenty satisfying for him, and he really didnt work up to that level of violence until he was challenged physically, scared, by a few of them. The cops werent the catalyst to upping his violent rapes to murder.

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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
5 months ago
469 Posts
Interim Gratification

Oh but they are not really major differences. Sexual sadists dont have one or two paraphilias, they have a smorgesbord of them, on a revolving lazy susan. A major one for ears was bondage, obviously/ Was there ever evidence of a bondage fixation in VR crime scenes? Rope, laces, clothes, anything tied left in the homes as a symbolic signature by the VR?

As far as crank calls go, VR/EAR could have just discovered them in the VR crimes, and then used them on the women he raped as a means of control through terror in the EAR crimes.

The lingerie. VR could do weird obsessive stuff with them and use them for sexual gratification because he didnt have a real person to do that to. Ears did have a woman or girl right there in front of him, so then he didnt need to fuss around with lingerie then. Symbolic violence to women turned actual violence on them.

TCITB,

This is why I do not think the VR is also the EAR. You are correct about the VR's paraphilia evolving to sexual assault. That is a valid argument. The problem for the VR also being the EAR is that the VR continued with his panty raids even after murdering Prof. Snelling and trying to kidnap his daughter.

No surprise. He was obviously back to obtaining sexual gratification through the ransacking and panty throwing. But how do we then explain the burglaries in Sacramento prior to June 18, 1976? If that was the VR, he is now no longer obtaining psycho-sexual enjoyment. There was no ransacking or panty throwing. But there were no rapes either. Serial offenders are driven by their obessions. Now all of a sudden, the VR is "over" his need to ransack and throw panties.

I don't think so.
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Edited by Archangel76, 5 months ago
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By Archangel76
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5 months ago
2156 Posts
Re: Murderous Intent

Im not sure of the timeline wrt the cops saying he was an underendowed man in a homosexual panic, but the effect it has on him is to make him mad at the cops. ( And maybe try out a penis extender, once.) He says that he's going to kill "them" (LE/the pigs) He's not extra mad at the women he ties up and rapes, after that news comes out. He didnt take his anger about those specific things out on any of them. His anger grew in a general way as the attacks went on, but it was a natural progression. He thought of the women as things he collected, toys; they had no agency. He was *ed at the cops who were *ing with him, challenging his power.

TCITB,

The timeline is that the EAR made the statement about "tell those f*****s, those pigs" first. In response to the threat to kill "two people" as well as cops, the SCSD released the phony composite threat and the provocative psychological profile and the information about the EAR's diminutive genitalia. My argument is that if this was the VR, the guy with the murderous intent, he would have went out and killed his next two victims as promised.

The first part of the EAR's rant said that he was going to kill "two people". If he was referring to police officers, he would have used his derogatory term for them. Here is what he said:

"He got real excited and whispered, ‘Those f*****s, those f*****s, those pigs. I’ve never killed before, but I’m going to now. Listen, do you hear me? I want you to tell those f*****s, those pigs. I’m going to go home to my apartment and I have bunches of televisions. I’m going to listen to the
radio and watch television and if I hear about this, I’m going to go out tomorrow night and kill two people. People are going to die."

He then followed up his threat to include killing police, too. This is what he said in follow up:

‘Those f*****s, those f*****s, those pigs, those pigs, those f*****s. I’m going to kill them, too.’ I thought he wanted me to say something so I told him I would tell them tomorrow. He said, ‘Okay, tell them I’m going to kill those f*****s.’

So, essentially, he was threatening to kill "two people". And then he was also threatening to kill police officers. And then the SCSD released the information about the EAR being a closet homosexual and having a tiny johnson.

The most important point is that something the police did between May 14, 1977 and May 17, 1977 seriously *ed off the EAR. I think that SOE is right about the EAR volunteering the information about going to "his apartment" was meant to cover the fact that the EAR was living in a house (or a van according to Drifter) but not an apartment.


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Edited by Archangel76, 5 months ago
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By Archangel76
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5 months ago
2156 Posts
Re: Murderous Intent
The conversation Arch posted is interesting to me because its one of the few times EAR spoke to his victims conversationally. Instead of just using threats and telling people to shut up whenever they spoke up. In fact I can't think of another one except for the time he told the woman something happened to his face. She spoke to him a little. I guess victims talking was not part of his fantasy. Maybe he didn't want them humanizing themselves.

"Bunches of televisions" is up near the top with me for funniest EAR quote. Maybe its wrong to find stuff about this case funny, but you gotta laugh sometimes.
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By Junkhead
Member
5 months ago
49 Posts
panties
Posted By: Archangel76
Posted By: Drifter
Posted By: Archangel76

Both offenders had similar quirks with regard to "bizarre burglaries". One of the tell-tale signs of the Ransacker is that he would spread women's undergarments throughout the house as part of his ritual. No such ritual in the EAR's burglaries. If that kind of ransacking was done even once in those early EAR pre-rape burglaries from April 1976 to June 1976, I might have the opposite opinion. That does not compute. That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences. That murderous intent. The VR had it when he shot Prof. Snelling and shot at Det. McGowen. The EAR did not exhibit a propensity for murder until 12/30/79.
Arch wrote: "That is how the Ransacker got his jollies. Nothing like that in Sacramento. No hang up phone calls in Visalia. That is part of how the EAR got his jollies. But these are minor differences".

Oh but they are not minor differences. They are major differences. You are describing totally separate, contrasting behavioral patterns, en route to a perfectly logical conclusion.

Drifter,

You are right. They are two completely different paraphilias. As Balaclava pointed out, the VR exhibited to fascination or fixation on women's undergarments. No such fixation from the EAR. That is a major clue that we're dealing with two separate offenders.

Arch- This is akin to saying Colonel Russell Williams couldn't be a panty raider and a rapist murderer because they are two different behaviors. He was a prolific panty raider but he also transformed into a rapist/murderer, He no longer needed panties from his murder victims since he filmed their murders, just as EAR took personal jewelry. The FDLE even mentions that "ONS may have photographed his murder victims." i would venture to say that the VR's placement of underwear was as ritualistic as William's - i believe i read somewhere that VR once left underwear turned inside out.. . sounds like he might have been trying them on. i think, in the end, EAR ONS will be someone very much like Williams and not a disorganized drug addict. His meds were probably prescription. It's interesting to me also that Williams frequently stripped naked to masturbate while he watched young women through windows without them ever knowing he was there. Note in the timeline link at the bottom that he may have committed a rape and murder while in college.

Toronto Star 10/28/2010“

He escalated quickly, from fetish break-ins, to sex assaults with no penetration to rape and murder. He logged his crimes, kept track of police reports of his crimes and left notes and messages for his victims.

“Merci,” he thanked a 12-year-old in a typed message on her computer.. . . .

There was a pattern to the photos he would take during a break-in: He would first photograph the bedroom of his victim, then the underwear in her dresser. He would then arrange the lingerie neatly on a bed or on the floor, before modeling them and ejaculating.”



The court heard of Williams’ chilling escalation from fetish burglaries, to sex assault and finally murder from September 2007 to January 2010. On July 10, 2009, he was at a neighbour’s house in Tweed, which he would eventually break into nine times. This was his sixth visit.At 1:30 a.m., he watched as the young woman stripped and stepped in the shower. Williams stripped naked, broke into her home, walked to her bedroom and stole her panties. “He admitted that at this point he wanted to take more risks,” Morrison said.In another escalation, he hoped to watch a teenager undress, and while waiting outside her window, stripped naked in the bushes and masturbated."



maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Psyc%20405/serial%20killers/Williams,%20David%20Russell.pdf
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Edited by PortofLeith, 5 months ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
5 months ago
953 Posts
Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide research by Schlesinger and Revitch

www.jaapl.org/content/27/2/227.full.pdf



Of 43 men
who had made serious attacks on women,
including beating, choking, knifing, and
nine murders. Here, only 3 offenders had
a history of prior sexual offenses while 12
(28%) had a record of burglary. Four of
the 12 (33%) combined burglary with assault
on the female occupant.

Ressler and his associates' ' found
that at least 2 of the 36 sexual murderers
in their FBI-sponsored study had committed
sexual burglaries days or hours before
they committed a sexual homicide. Unfortunately,
these authors did not report
the total number of burglaries in their
case histories.



Described in
considerable detail 11 cases of notorious
serial sexual murderers whom he either
studied or investigated as a profiler. Five
of these 11 cases (45%) had a history of
burglary. In Ressler and ~hachtman's'"
description of 19 serial sexual murderers,
6 (32%) had a history of burglary.



Douglas
and 0lshaker'~similarly report on 16
sexual murderers of which 6 (38%) had a
history of burglary.

If you look at the table presented only 39.2% of the men that became sexual murderers had a history of burglary.



Just because the VR was a sexual burglar doesn't mean he continued on to be a sexual murderer.

(edit to correct misspelling)
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Edited by thelostsock, 5 months ago
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By thelostsock
Member
5 months ago
224 Posts
Re: Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide research by Schlesinger and Revitch
Posted By: thelostsock

Just because the VR was a sexual burgler doesn't mean he continued on to be a sexual murderer.

Nope. But when you consider the overwhelming number of similar or identical characteristics (see my post in the "Reasonable Conclusions" thread) between the two offenders, some of which are pretty specific, it's difficult to accept they're two different people.

For instance, find me some other burglaries in which the perp used a makeshift alarm system constructed of common household items. Or Google the phrase "I'm going to come over and * you." Not many hits. There's enough erotic literature on the Web to give this phrase ample opportunities to crop up, yet, it doesn't.
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Edited by SpeakelOfEngrish, 5 months ago
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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5 months ago
1090 Posts
Re: Re: Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide research by Schlesinger and Revitch
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: thelostsock

Just because the VR was a sexual burgler doesn't mean he continued on to be a sexual murderer.

Nope. But when you consider the overwhelming number of similar or identical characteristics (see my post in the "Reasonable Conclusions" thread) between the two offenders, some of which are pretty specific, it's difficult to accept they're two different people.

For instance, find me some other burglaries in which the perp used a makeshift alarm system constructed of common household items. Or Google the phrase "I'm going to come over and * you." Not many hits. There's enough erotic literature on the Web to give this phrase ample opportunities to crop up, yet, it doesn't.
What should a rapist say? I'm coming over to paint your house?
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By thelostsock
Member
5 months ago
224 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide research by Schlesinger and Revitch
Posted By: thelostsock
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: thelostsock

Just because the VR was a sexual burgler doesn't mean he continued on to be a sexual murderer.

Nope. But when you consider the overwhelming number of similar or identical characteristics (see my post in the "Reasonable Conclusions" thread) between the two offenders, some of which are pretty specific, it's difficult to accept they're two different people.

For instance, find me some other burglaries in which the perp used a makeshift alarm system constructed of common household items. Or Google the phrase "I'm going to come over and * you." Not many hits. There's enough erotic literature on the Web to give this phrase ample opportunities to crop up, yet, it doesn't.
What should a rapist say? I'm coming over to paint your house?
Yes, you moron.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
Member
5 months ago
1090 Posts
Re: Murderous Intent

Of 43 men
who had made serious attacks on women,
including beating, choking, knifing, and
nine murders. Here, only 3 offenders had
a history of prior sexual offenses

The other interesting part of this research is the low history of prior sexual offenses by the offenders.
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By thelostsock
Member
5 months ago
224 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Sexual Burglaries and Sexual Homicide research by Schlesinger and Revitch
Posted By: thelostsock
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: thelostsock

Just because the VR was a sexual burgler doesn't mean he continued on to be a sexual murderer.

Nope. But when you consider the overwhelming number of similar or identical characteristics (see my post in the "Reasonable Conclusions" thread) between the two offenders, some of which are pretty specific, it's difficult to accept they're two different people.

For instance, find me some other burglaries in which the perp used a makeshift alarm system constructed of common household items. Or Google the phrase "I'm going to come over and * you." Not many hits. There's enough erotic literature on the Web to give this phrase ample opportunities to crop up, yet, it doesn't.
What should a rapist say? I'm coming over to paint your house?
LOL ROFL ...
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By DanCartell
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5 months ago
683 Posts

[Drifter]

My interview with Larry Crompton

Recently uploaded to my website. In case anyone's interested:

www.truecrimediary.com/podcast/Cr.m4a
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By mishmac
Member
2 years ago
24 Posts


Re: My interview with Larry Crompton

I don't think we are disrespecting the victims by discussing if this guy had HIV. We have to look at every angle of this case in order to solve it. This perp was willing to have unprotected sex with many women he did not know. I feel he most likely had unprotected sex with prostitutes also. I agree HIV is harder to get from females but males can still get it. Just ask Majic Johnson. There are several sexually transmitted diseases out there that are just as deadly as HIV such as genital warts which could have put this perb in his bed at night and brought his criminal ways to an end by giving him some serious cancers.
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Edited by Peterlee, 2 years ago
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By Peterlee
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2 years ago
319 Posts
My Interview With Larry Crompton

Thanks for the podcast post. It was informative. Guess it is true that Larry Pool is with the FBI. Too, I learned that Crompton doesn't put a lot of stock in the composites. After trying my hand at the "Police Sketch Challenge" on AMW's site: www.amw.com/?home=1 I realize how difficult it is to recall things exactly.
Looking forward to Part II of the interview.
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Edited by ladyofthelake, 2 years ago
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By ladyofthelake
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2 years ago
209 Posts
Bumping

I'm just bumping this in case some of the newer people haven't seen it/heard it. It's an interesting interview.


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By gringalinda69
Member
2 years ago
32 Posts

[Drifter]

Ninja

Found an interesting article. Does anyone have any info on this guy? What stuck out to me is the fact he committed burglary, but never took anything worth much.



news.google.com/newspapers?id=LzMuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XtcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4001,4776114&dq=east+area+rapist&hl=en

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Edited by Bear99, 3 years ago

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By Bear99
Member
3 years ago
271 Posts


Re: Ninja

Robert Angel Johnson was identified as the Ninja bandit/rapist. If I'm not mistaken, he was finally released from prison in 2007, having served time since the 80s.

I wonder if he was inspired by EAR/ONS? Strange how many paramilitary-type criminals operated in California in the 70s and 80s.

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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago

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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts

Article link
Bear,
I got a bright red warning sign when I clicked your link above. Just an FYI. I was talking with someone recently and we found it odd that there were so many individuals running around in ski masks in Sacramento in the 70's. Sacramento has had an unusually large number of rapists and serial killers. Scary! g

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By guessting
Member
3 years ago
2043 Posts

Article link

I too got a warning.

"...we found it odd that there were so many individuals running around in ski masks in Sacramento in the 70's. Sacramento has had an unusually large number of rapists and serial killers. Scary!"

Yes indeed it sounds scary. You have a placid suburban enviroment with all these monsters running around. Very surreal. But as with the ski masked rapists running around--who were they? I assume most if not all were apprehended. I also wonder about their M.O. as to contrast with the M.O. of the Ear?

Also, what do any of you think about the "Afraid" incident?

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Edited by deadbolt, 3 years ago

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By deadbolt
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3 years ago
225 Posts

Re: Ninja
Thanks for the info...I'm not sure what the deal is with the warning on the link.

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By Bear99
Member
3 years ago
271 Posts

The "afraid" incident...
...is also something i am very interessted in. This could at least be the proof that there are people out there who know about the identity of the ear. can you tell me how familiar the people in california are with this case. maybe the case should get more publicity. i am sure someone out there knows the truth but is too afraid to talk because of al the consequences.

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By andythenatural
Member
3 years ago
52 Posts

Re: Ninja

I believe that California in particular experienced so many serial rapists and criminals because of the culture of the 1960s.

Were most of the suspects apprehended? Who knows... I found this chart on Sacramento crime statistics in 2001 and it says around 46% of forcible rapes and around 12% of burglaries were solved... So I'm thinking less than half might have been caught? Then again, "rape" encompasses a very broad spectrum of crimes.

For example, around 70% of victims know their rapists. But in these types of crimes, it seems that most of the attackers don't know their victims, they strike at night, burglaries, etc. It's safe to say that these types of rapes are rare. You also have to take in to account that a majority of rapes go unreported, so there are undoubtedly a lot of crimes out there (maybe even EAR crimes) that no one knows about. So when you consider all of this... It seems likely that a majority of the criminals probably got away with it.

I too want to learn more about the "AFRAID." letter. I have been searching for months for it but I keep hitting dead ends. I hope someone will get it soon. Has anyone contacted whoever runs the ear-ons website and asked them to search? What about the individual(s) who run the Bedroom Killer website?

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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago

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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts

[Drifter]

Ninja Composite

I copied this from JJ's board regarding the Ninja sketch. I had never seen this before. I think the instrument in the tee shirt at his neck is a navigators flashlight.

Comments from a poster concerning the full length sketch:

Note the way EAR carries his weapons as they are holstered. It is a cross over reach. Not unusual, but isn't in the majority either. Ring is on the right finger and watch/bracelet on the left. Tattoo above the left wrist. Looks more like a dog sitting down. To the right and back of the belt is what looks like a flashlight or nightstick. Can't figure out what the instrument is in the tee shirt at his neck. Not a pen (if so, why?)...that one is a puzzle.



In my opinion this individual is ambidextrous.



The belt buckle looks as though it has a raised emblem on it. One of the ONS victims had what appeared to be an abrasion on her torso that was speculated left by a belt buckle. If you look at the shape of the belt buckle in this composite, to me, it looks like a mystical dragon.



As a side note here: A witness said there was an embroidered dragon on the left breast pocket of one of the men at the Maggiore murders.



Whoever gave this description was very detailed and there are too many things, ie. placement of the holstered weapons, ring, tattoo, etc., for it not to be a true composite. The texture of the paper indicates that it is an older piece of paper and if you look at the right forearm there is what looks like either a water/coffee stain where the print has faded. On the CCF episode, I noticed a paper clip at the top of the page of the composite which is not shown here.



I feel that this is a true witness description and has very telling behavioral traits of the EAR/ONS.

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Edited by guessting, 3 years ago

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By guessting
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3 years ago
2043 Posts


Re: Ninja Composite

Can't figure out what the instrument is in the tee shirt at his neck. Not a pen (if so, why?)...that one is a puzzle.

I thought his shirt was basically a 2 or 3 button athletic shirt, like this one here. I think alot of men including myself have owned one of these at some point.

I feel that this is a true witness description and has very telling behavioral traits of the EAR/ONS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this description came from a 10 year old boy, who had just let out the dog. The boy looked up and the EAR was there waiting for him. I think this was in the mid summer or early autumn 1976. One of the many tragic things about this was that it didn't even make the papers, or at least not untill November.

I also think the boy described the EAR having blue eyes and he was sure of it.
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Edited by deadbolt, 3 years ago
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By deadbolt
Member
3 years ago
225 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite
A pretty green one? Most T's back in the 70's were pocket T's. But I guess we will never know for sure. g
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By guessting
Member
3 years ago
2043 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite

Or a white one? it could've been something like this from McCall's? But as for the EAR costume, I think it's just buttons as they are only two. But even more odd is that the EAR looks as if he's NOT wearing pants! Or maybe that the comp. artist is just focusing on an upper body description.

Since the EAR was described as having a broad, muscular chest, I always imagined him doing alot of pushups (which will give you a wide chest) in his apartment or where ever he lived.


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Edited by deadbolt, 3 years ago
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By deadbolt
Member
3 years ago
225 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite

Note the way EAR carries his weapons as they are holstered. It is a cross over reach. Not unusual, but isn't in the majority either.

This is interesting as well. During another attack, a victim got a hold of his gun, a struggle ensued and the EAR ended up cutting himself with his own knife. Traces of his blood was found in the victim's hair and bedspread. I wonder if the woman pulled his gun from his holster or his hand? Thanks for posting G.
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By deadbolt
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3 years ago
225 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite

I was referring to the advertising of the shirts. They called it a "pretty little green" shirt. Ear did not have pants on. When the boy opened the door to let the dog out EAR stood there with no pants on. He also walked away from another scene with no pants on. When he woke the victims and said "I only want your money and food" and he had not pants on..You can only guess the terror the victims felt.
By the way, the gun attack you refer to is the attack that EAR's DNA was left behind. Thanks to a very wise detective who tested all of the blood left behind. g
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Edited by guessting, 3 years ago
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By guessting
Member
3 years ago
2043 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite

I recall you saying that over half the time he would confront his victim's without any pants. This is another paraphilia (like voyeurism)

Exhibitionism, commonly referred to as “flashing,” is characterized by the achievement of sexual excitement through genital exposure, usually to an unsuspecting stranger. It also refers to a strong desire to be observed by others, specifically during active masturbation in front of the victim. The key features of true exhibitionism include situations when the victim is unwilling, the subject is sexually aroused by the shock or surprise of the victim..."

Most males arrested for exhibitionism are in their late teens or early twenties. Exhibitionism appears to have its onset during the mid 20s. Occasionally, the first exhibitionist act occurs during pre-adolescence;

Most cases of exhibitionism are based on psychological rather than physical causes. Exhibitionists often experience intense feelings of anger, hostility, or shame. They also have a deep sense of inadequacy. There is a need to prove their virility. Their actions are to elicit some kind of reaction in their victims; any reaction is better than being ignored.

The third group of exhibitionists demonstrates significantly more psychopathology. The sexual culmination is more important than the shock value of exposing oneself, and always involves masturbation. This offender has a more assaultive character. He often has concurrent paraphilias which may include voyeurism, pedophilia, scatologia (compulsive use of obscene language), and frotteurism (touching and rubbing against a non-consenting person). A number of these individuals (approximately 10%) escalate into a “hands-on” sexual contact of victims as opposed to the typical “hands-off” exhibitionistic behavior. It is individuals in this third group who are more likely to progress onto more aggressive sexual offenses, including rape or the sexual assault of a minor.
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By deadbolt
Member
3 years ago
225 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite
uhh.. I call it "being prepared". would you want to get caught up in a nasty situation with your pants around your ankles?
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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts
Penlight and dragon patch

The Ninja picture does suggest a penlight at the collar. This picture is a Vietnam era cockpit flashlight. I am also including a 70's military jacket that shows how embroidered patches were placed. We can't underestimate the importance of the dragon patch worn by the POI in the Maggiore murders.


I hate to beat a dead horse, but when did our known crimes start in Sacramento? June 1976. Why that start date? Let's recall that ALL branches of the service moved navigator training to Mather on July 1, 1976. That would have been an influx of servicemen from all over the country, including transfers from Lemoore NAS near Visalia. But we should also look at other reasons someone like EAR might suddenly appear in June 1976.

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/Ransacker/penlight.jpg

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/Ransacker/jacketpatches.jpg
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Edited by PortofLeith, 3 years ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
963 Posts
Re: Penlight and dragon patch
Posted By: PortofLeith

The Ninja picture does suggest a penlight at the collar. This picture is a Vietnam era cockpit flashlight. I am also including a 70's military jacket that shows how embroidered patches were placed. We can't underestimate the importance of the dragon patch worn by the POI in the Maggiore murders.


I hate to beat a dead horse, but when did our known crimes start in Sacramento? June 1976. Why that start date? Let's recall that ALL branches of the service moved navigator training to Mather on July 1, 1976. That would have been an influx of servicemen from all over the country, including transfers from Lemoore NAS near Visalia. But we should also look at other reasons someone like EAR might suddenly appear in June 1976.

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/Ransacker/penlight.jpg

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/Ransacker/jacketpatches.jpg

"we cannot underestimate the importance of the dragon patch"

Why? There is a higher probablity that Maggiore killer stole or purchased that jacket. If he were smart enough to wear a mask and gloves, why would he wear a jacket which could tie him to a specific organization in the Sacramento area?
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts
Why would the Maggiore killer wear an identifiable jacket?

Cimmerian,

Most likely he wore the jacket because he had no plans to kill the Maggiores that evening and he frequently wore the jacket for prowling in winter weather. Maybe he didn't get the Pendleton until Christmas 1979.Cool

He was planning to leave the jacket with his pants in a neighboring tree or backyard while committing his usual offense. I belong to the school that believes Maggiore caught someone he knew in the act of committing a crime.


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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
963 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite
The Pendleton. g
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By guessting
Member
3 years ago
2043 Posts
Pendleton, pemberton- any 70's plaid wool shirt

He was described wearing a long sleeve plaid jacket or shirt at more than one of the crime scenes. Pendletons were very popular in the 70's.



www.papasoul.com/410.html
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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
963 Posts
Re: Ninja Composite
That's funny because Ted Kaczynski wore plaid shirts all the time even back in the 60s. The murderer of Valerie Percy (victim of an ONS style attack) wore a plaid shirt as well.
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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts
plaid shirts

Cimmcimmcimmering,


Every guy I knew in the 70's wore those plaid shirts. . . but not every guy wore a specific military patch on a specific issue military jacket. Was Ted fond of bomber jackets with dragon patches?

Let the evidence lead you- don't try to make it fit. Did Ted ever wear a gun belt buckle similar to this one made by the Bergamot company or a surfer cross ring? I've already given you dates that eliminate Ted from EARS ONS crimes in 1978 and 1979 . But I forget. . .Ted could magically transport himself from Chicago to Davis and back in time to stand in line at the DMV. And when he wrote in his journal that he spent the day working on his cabin he was really in Sacramento. Have you read his journals- they are archived in a special collection at the University of Michigan and excerpts are also available through a University of Montana journalism site.

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/Ransacker/bergamot1.jpg
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Edited by PortofLeith, 3 years ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
963 Posts
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
Please.
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By f1guyus
Member
3 years ago
1283 Posts
Dragon
I believe the person who killed the Maggiores, either if he was ear or not, was wearing his 349th jacket with the dragon patch on it. I think he transferred from Travis to Mather, but still wore his old squadron jacket.
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By Bear99
Member
3 years ago
271 Posts
Re: plaid shirts
Posted By: PortofLeith

Cimmcimmcimmering,


Every guy I knew in the 70's wore those plaid shirts. . . but not every guy wore a specific military patch on a specific issue military jacket. Was Ted fond of bomber jackets with dragon patches?

Let the evidence lead you- don't try to make it fit. Did Ted ever wear a gun belt buckle similar to this one made by the Bergamot company or a surfer cross ring? I've already given you dates that eliminate Ted from EARS ONS crimes in 1978 and 1979 . But I forget. . .Ted could magically transport himself from Chicago to Davis and back in time to stand in line at the DMV. And when he wrote in his journal that he spent the day working on his cabin he was really in Sacramento. Have you read his journals- they are archived in a special collection at the University of Michigan and excerpts are also available through a University of Montana journalism site.

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/Ransacker/bergamot1.jpg

You are not thinking straight. I am well aware the Maggiore killer wore a jacket with a dragon on it. What you are failing to grasp here, is that he very well could have purchased that jacket at a surplus store, he also could have stolen it. I have a bomber jacket in my closet with a military logo on it, but I never joined the military. There are these places called stores where people exchange paper currency for products. Sometimes these stores even carry products such as military jackets (OMGGGGG!!!!). Ted K. did wear bomber jackets. He wore all sorts of military surplus clothes and boots.

You have never given dates that eliminate Ted K as ONS. We already went over this, don't you remember? Here is that thread:

community.aetv.com/service/displayDiscussionThreads.kickAction?as=119137&w=278284&d=446919&d-1169404-p=3

You weren't even able to provide a source for your claims (which were completely incorrect).


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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts
Ninja Costume

The Ear
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By deadbolt
Member
3 years ago
225 Posts

[Drifter]

No Longer Sharing Case Information

There was a serious breach of trust with confidential information being posted on this board with the intent of manipulating the discourse here. As such, I will no longer share any more case information with any posters here. I am now in agreement with the investigators who were prescient on this particular issue and refrained from releasing any more case information. This was the case with the additional recordings allegedly made by the EAR as well as additional poems.

The information posted was an excerpt from a book. However, I had been asked to not post that until the book is complete. The information would have eventually been made public but for the time being it was to remain confidential. This incident demonstrated that case information (except that released by investigators) should not be made available. All it takes is the irresponsible actions of one to jeopardize the investigation.

From now on, I will only discuss information that has been made public by the investigators. If it has not been made public, I will only responde with "no comment".

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Edited by Archangel76, 1 year ago

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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2156 Posts


Re: Re: Re: No Longer Sharing Case Information
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: guessting
Now threats, wow...I bet he is bigger than you think. You might be big but he is bigger.

Size has nothing to do with it. I just don't like bullies. I did not make a threat. I just stated my opinion that Arc would likely not run his mouth if he had to look a person in the eye when he was saying that they were crazy, or a fool.
As an objective third party observer to this dispute, I am compelled to add that nothing Arch has contributed to this exchange or any recent exchanges with you has in any way looked like "bullying." Your words and general tone have far more 'bully' flavor than Arch's.
He has stated that his theory on the Maggiore's is the only reasonable conclusion to come to and then personally attacked me for four days for not bowing down to him.
You, like many thin-skinned individuals, cry "personal attack" too indiscriminately. He attacked your reasoning and logic, aspects which were relevant to the circumstances and in fact were the foundation of the disagreement. A personal attack is one that exceeds the boundaries of the discourse to exploit personal, sometimes intimate weaknesses that have no bearing on the elements of the argument. So, how's your ex-wife getting on with her new beau, Mr. Inadequate?
he called me fool. he called me a troll. Then he began to insist that I had APN. All of these are personal attacks.
Well if it is any consolation I am sure we have all thought some pretty unsavory thoughts about people who come to this board. If you are not a fool, troll or suffer from NPD, don't sweat the small stuff. It means nothing..g
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By guessting
Member
1 year ago
2045 Posts
Re: Re: Let's Get Back to Discussing the Case
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: Archangel76
RM,

You've made your point. I've made my point. Let's get back to discussing the case. Do not distort or misstate what I have said and I will not point out what you are doing. It is that simple.
Oh another truce. Sounds good to me. By the way you are the greatest and all of your case theories are without flaw.
RM,

It is not true but I do my homework and I know what I am talking about with regard to the EAR/ONS and Maggiore cases. I want to lump the EAR alone in that Maggiore mess. It would make it much easier for everyone if I go along with the party line.

As mentioned in another post, if we are wrong about the EAR's involvement and he was not responsible for the Maggiore murders, then at least two low-life murderers will have gotten away scot-free with murder. If I am wrong and only the EAR was responsible, we're all looking for him anyway.
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2158 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: No Longer Sharing Case Information
Posted By: guessting
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: guessting
Now threats, wow...I bet he is bigger than you think. You might be big but he is bigger.

Size has nothing to do with it. I just don't like bullies. I did not make a threat. I just stated my opinion that Arc would likely not run his mouth if he had to look a person in the eye when he was saying that they were crazy, or a fool.
As an objective third party observer to this dispute, I am compelled to add that nothing Arch has contributed to this exchange or any recent exchanges with you has in any way looked like "bullying." Your words and general tone have far more 'bully' flavor than Arch's.
He has stated that his theory on the Maggiore's is the only reasonable conclusion to come to and then personally attacked me for four days for not bowing down to him.
You, like many thin-skinned individuals, cry "personal attack" too indiscriminately. He attacked your reasoning and logic, aspects which were relevant to the circumstances and in fact were the foundation of the disagreement. A personal attack is one that exceeds the boundaries of the discourse to exploit personal, sometimes intimate weaknesses that have no bearing on the elements of the argument. So, how's your ex-wife getting on with her new beau, Mr. Inadequate?
he called me fool. he called me a troll. Then he began to insist that I had APN. All of these are personal attacks.
Well if it is any consolation I am sure we have all thought some pretty unsavory thoughts about people who come to this board. If you are not a fool, troll or suffer from NPD, don't sweat the small stuff. It means nothing..g
I don't sweat it. Just because I am pointing these things out does not mean that I can't take it. I am tougher than you will ever know. I just don't know why you are allowing it. Usually you speak out against personal attacks. When it comes to Arc you never reign him in. He apparantly can say or do whatever he wants on this board.
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Re: No Longer Sharing Case Information
There's too much estrogen in this thread. No more case information, cool. We'll just play the FOIA lottery from now on.
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By Cimmerian10
Member
1 year ago
1000 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Longer Sharing Case Information
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: guessting
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: SpeakelOfEngrish
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: guessting
Now threats, wow...I bet he is bigger than you think. You might be big but he is bigger.

Size has nothing to do with it. I just don't like bullies. I did not make a threat. I just stated my opinion that Arc would likely not run his mouth if he had to look a person in the eye when he was saying that they were crazy, or a fool.
As an objective third party observer to this dispute, I am compelled to add that nothing Arch has contributed to this exchange or any recent exchanges with you has in any way looked like "bullying." Your words and general tone have far more 'bully' flavor than Arch's.
He has stated that his theory on the Maggiore's is the only reasonable conclusion to come to and then personally attacked me for four days for not bowing down to him.
You, like many thin-skinned individuals, cry "personal attack" too indiscriminately. He attacked your reasoning and logic, aspects which were relevant to the circumstances and in fact were the foundation of the disagreement. A personal attack is one that exceeds the boundaries of the discourse to exploit personal, sometimes intimate weaknesses that have no bearing on the elements of the argument. So, how's your ex-wife getting on with her new beau, Mr. Inadequate?
he called me fool. he called me a troll. Then he began to insist that I had APN. All of these are personal attacks.
Well if it is any consolation I am sure we have all thought some pretty unsavory thoughts about people who come to this board. If you are not a fool, troll or suffer from NPD, don't sweat the small stuff. It means nothing..g
I don't sweat it. Just because I am pointing these things out does not mean that I can't take it. I am tougher than you will ever know. I just don't know why you are allowing it. Usually you speak out against personal attacks. When it comes to Arc you never reign him in. He apparantly can say or do whatever he wants on this board.
I am against personal attacks. I feel you can handle yourself. What can I say?
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By guessting
Member
1 year ago
2045 Posts
Apology Again
RM,

I apologize again if you were offended by what I said. I do not want to post the distortions of my statements as that would begin another round of this counter-productive discourse. I will not personally attack you or insult you so long as you do not misstate or mischaracterize what I have said. If you misstate or mischaracterize what I have said, I reserve the right to correct the misstatement or mischaracterization. And I call you on it just as I expect you to do the same if your statements or positions are misstated or mischaracterized.

Can we please drop this now?
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2158 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Let's Get Back to Discussing the Case
Posted By: Archangel76
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: Archangel76
RM,

You've made your point. I've made my point. Let's get back to discussing the case. Do not distort or misstate what I have said and I will not point out what you are doing. It is that simple.
Oh another truce. Sounds good to me. By the way you are the greatest and all of your case theories are without flaw.
RM,

It is not true but I do my homework and I know what I am talking about with regard to the EAR/ONS and Maggiore cases. I want to lump the EAR alone in that Maggiore mess. It would make it much easier for everyone if I go along with the party line.

As mentioned in another post, if we are wrong about the EAR's involvement and he was not responsible for the Maggiore murders, then at least two low-life murderers will have gotten away scot-free with murder. If I am wrong and only the EAR was responsible, we're all looking for him anyway.
So why attack me personally. You have no right to call me a fool or a troll or to say that I have NPD. You created all of this by not allowing me to have my opinion. It is a valid theory and one that you admit most LE working this case agree with. So why attack me for stating it. You are wrong to attack me. Period.
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Correction...

"So why attack me personally. You have no right to call me a fool or a troll or to say that I have NPD. You created all of this by not allowing me to have my opinion. It is a valid theory and one that you admit most LE working this case agree with. So why attack me for stating it. You are wrong to attack me. Period".

Reserving the right to correct any misstatements or mischaracterizations:

I did not call you a "fool" or "troll". I did not say that you were "crazy" or "a psychopath". I asked you to quote any statement made by me saying such and I would publicly retract and apologize on this board.

You equated me saying that your posts were showing "traits" of someone with NPD as with saying that you actually had NPD. I stated in a reply for the record that I do not believe that you are crazy or that you actually have NPD. Some of my posts show traits for NPD. This whole thread could be suggestive of NPD. So what. Like everything else on this board it is an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

I have not attacked you personally. You have interpreted statements made about the nature of your posts with being a personal attack. A personal attack would be, "I think that you are a ______" fill in the blanks.

All of those things that you said I called you, I never said. Nor will you find a single post where I called you those things. You will find posts where I said you were exhibiting traits consistent with NPD. But as mentioned, you will find posts were I exhibited traits of NPD.

As for being crazy, I think we are all crazy for wanting resolution in this case. Because most people will not bother with it. In that sense, crazy is a good thing because I think most people are crazy for not wanting resolution for the victims.
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Edited by Archangel76, 1 year ago
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2158 Posts
Re: Correction...
Posted By: Archangel76

"So why attack me personally. You have no right to call me a fool or a troll or to say that I have NPD. You created all of this by not allowing me to have my opinion. It is a valid theory and one that you admit most LE working this case agree with. So why attack me for stating it. You are wrong to attack me. Period".

Reserving the right to correct any misstatements or mischaracterizations:

I did not call you a "fool" or "troll". I did not say that you were "crazy" or "a psychopath". I asked you to quote any statement made by me saying such and I would publicly retract and apologize on this board.

You equated me saying that your posts were showing "traits" of someone with NPD as with saying that you actually had NPD. I stated in a reply for the record that I do not believe that you are crazy or that you actually have NPD. Some of my posts show traits for NPD. This whole thread could be suggestive of NPD. So what. Like everything else on this board it is an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

I have not attacked you personally. You have interpreted statements made about the nature of your posts with being a personal attack. A personal attack would be, "I think that you are a ______" fill in the blanks.

All of those things that you said I called you, I never said. Nor will you find a single post where I called you those things. You will find posts where I said you were exhibiting traits consistent with NPD. But as mentioned, you will find posts were I exhibited traits of NPD.

As for being crazy, I think we are all crazy for wanting resolution in this case. Because most people will not bother with it. In that sense, crazy is a good thing.

After reading my posts you said that you were tired of suffering fools.
Dude. You were calling me a fool. Quit playing games and own your words. You went on and on about how I was showing signs of NPD. Again. Dude. Be a man. Quit playing word games. Implying that someone has NPD is a personal attack. Man up. Own your words. You said in response to one of my posts that you were sick of dealing with trolls. Again. Be a man. Admit that you called me a troll. You also have compared my mainstream theory to AK's off the wall Unabomber theory more times than I can count. Stop playing games. You know that you have smeared me many many times.
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Edited by Repoman, 1 year ago
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Stopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: Archangel76

"So why attack me personally. You have no right to call me a fool or a troll or to say that I have NPD. You created all of this by not allowing me to have my opinion. It is a valid theory and one that you admit most LE working this case agree with. So why attack me for stating it. You are wrong to attack me. Period".

Reserving the right to correct any misstatements or mischaracterizations:

I did not call you a "fool" or "troll". I did not say that you were "crazy" or "a psychopath". I asked you to quote any statement made by me saying such and I would publicly retract and apologize on this board.

You equated me saying that your posts were showing "traits" of someone with NPD as with saying that you actually had NPD. I stated in a reply for the record that I do not believe that you are crazy or that you actually have NPD. Some of my posts show traits for NPD. This whole thread could be suggestive of NPD. So what. Like everything else on this board it is an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

I have not attacked you personally. You have interpreted statements made about the nature of your posts with being a personal attack. A personal attack would be, "I think that you are a ______" fill in the blanks.

All of those things that you said I called you, I never said. Nor will you find a single post where I called you those things. You will find posts where I said you were exhibiting traits consistent with NPD. But as mentioned, you will find posts were I exhibited traits of NPD.

As for being crazy, I think we are all crazy for wanting resolution in this case. Because most people will not bother with it. In that sense, crazy is a good thing.

After reading my posts you said that you were tired of suffering fools.
Dude. You were calling me a fool. Quit playing games and own your words. You went on and on about how I was showing signs of NPD. Again. Dude. Be a man. Quit playing word games. Implying that someone has NPD is a personal attack. Man up. Own your words. You said in response to one of my posts that you were sick of dealing with trolls. Again. Be a man. Admit that you called me a troll. You also have compared my mainstream theory to AK's off the wall Unabomber theory more times than I can count. Stop playing games. You know that you have smeared me many many times.
Please stop!
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By guessting
Member
1 year ago
2045 Posts
Bully

Arch's comment.

"I have never nor would I ever threaten anyone on this board with physical violence. That is what a bully does. I know. I have had to deal with bullies in my line of work. Watch "Bully Beatdown" on MTV. In a civil society, one should never have to worry about the threat of violence being used over disagreements. Prison is full of such people. I have contributed to more than a few people being there"

My response:

Bully definition:

"Use of superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

You are abusing your position of power on this board and in this case to bully me. Bullying is not always physical. Most words have more than one definition. In the last four days you were clearly bullying me. Period. You wanted everyone to agree with you Maggiore theory. Anyone who didn't was bullied. All the name calling and personal attacks was you bullying me. Oh and that is the second time today that you have condescended to me about my use of a word. For the record you were wrong both times. Next time why don't you look up the word first before you assume that I don't know how to use it.
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Edited by Repoman, 1 year ago
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Physical Violence
I have never threatened anyone with physical violence in response to anything posted here. That is another line that you crossed. It is illegal to threaten physical violence and you could wind up behind bars just for making the threat.
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2158 Posts
Re: Physical Violence
Posted By: Archangel76
I have never threatened anyone with physical violence in response to anything posted here. That is another line that you crossed. It is illegal to threaten physical violence and you could wind up behind bars just for making the threat.

I never threatened anyone. I only said that I would be willing to bet that you would not call me a fool, or say that I was crazy to my face. Most people will insult someone on a message board, but not when they are standing right in front of them. This is not a threat. It is just a comment on human nature. If you feel that I have threatened you then call the Police. I would never and have never threatened anyone and would only fight someone if I was defending myself or my family from an actual physical attack as is my right under the law.
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Edited by Repoman, 1 year ago
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Below The Belt
If someone were to literally punch me in the balls, I very well might hit them with a chair. Odds are I'd be aquitted. People have a right to defend themselves.
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Re: Below The Belt
Posted By: Repoman
If someone were to literally punch me in the balls, I very well might hit them with a chair. Odds are I'd be aquitted. People have a right to defend themselves.
ad infinitum
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By guessting
Member
1 year ago
2045 Posts

[Drifter]

Non-secretors have more medical problems

I was reminded today that EAR/ONS was a non-secretor and that they suffer more from certain medical problems. I looked this up and decided to post it here for anyone who is interested:

Whether you're a secretor or a non-secretor is completely independent of your blood type, but just as important when it comes to understanding any metabolic dysfunctions and immune susceptibilities. Simply put, a secretor is a person whose body secretes its blood type antigens into its fluids – saliva, mucus, etc. A non-secretor does not. (Approximately 80% of the general population are estimated to be secretors.) And while no one blood type is better than the others, it is thought better to be a secretor than a non-secretor. The ability to secrete blood type antigens into your bodily fluids offers enhanced protection against outside factors such as potentially harmful microorganisms and the lectins from the food you eat. Secretors also have a more accomodating intestinal environment in which beneficial probiotic bacteria can thrive, since blood type can be used as a food source for such bacteria. Non-secretors on the other hand, because their bodies don't infuse their fluids with blood type antigens, have tendencies toward:

• Higher rates of oral disease, including more cavities – and, interestingly, habitual snoring
• Digestive problems, such as inflammation and ulcers
• A more prevalent rate of autoimmune disorders, such as multiple sclerosis

(Note this next one EAR/ONS was known to be a smoker)
• Lungs that are more susceptible to environmental factors and cigarette smoking


• A greater risk of diabetes and heart disease
• A greater risk for recurrent urinary tract and Candida (yeast) infections
• An increased association with alcoholism
• More difficulty breaking down dietary fat and properly metabolizing calcium
• An increased intolerance to carbohydrates

Your “secretor/non-secretor” status, in conjunction with your blood type, also determines the viscosity and clotting time of your blood.

I hope no one but EAR/ONS suffers from these maladies, but Mr. EAR/ONS suffer away!!!!

Sandia

　


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By Sandia
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2 years ago
1382 Posts

« Previous 1 2

Jane Doe, this is fascinating!
Thanks for this interesting link. He/she was beautiful as a woman and now pretty good looking as a man. Poor guy, his life couldn't have been easy. He is very brave to come forward! Looks like he managed to have a good life, unlike the "pest".

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By Sandia
Member
2 years ago
1382 Posts

Re: Non-secretors have more medical problems

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Edited by JaneDoe, 2 years ago

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By JaneDoe
Member
2 years ago
366 Posts

Re: Kleinfelter Syndrome XXY
Posted By: conquistador1521

When a boy is diagnosed with this syndrome many are given testosterone treatment.


Possible Side Effects



Increases muscle development

Increases sex drive

Being overly agressive

Appetite Stimulation



If someone was given an incorrect dose or self medicates it could create a raving monster
EARONS wasn't a raving monster. He was calculated and organized and patient before most of his attacks. He wasn't a big man, either.

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By applauding marauder
Member
3 months ago
188 Posts

Re: Re: Kleinfelter Syndrome XXY
Posted By: applauding marauder
Posted By: conquistador1521

When a boy is diagnosed with this syndrome many are given testosterone treatment.


Possible Side Effects



Increases muscle development

Increases sex drive

Being overly agressive

Appetite Stimulation



If someone was given an incorrect dose or self medicates it could create a raving monster
EARONS wasn't a raving monster. He was calculated and organized and patient before most of his attacks. He wasn't a big man, either.
John Mcenroe.

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By Repoman
Member
3 months ago
1487 Posts

[Drifter]

Non Secretors

I've read various studies that suggest that between 12%-20% of the population are non secretors. I did some research today and here is a partial list of infamous criminal non-secretors:

Paul Bernardo

Andre Chikatilo

Kenneth Bianchi

Dennis Rader

Peter Sutcliffe

and of course Ears ONS. Doesn't this seem like a disproportionate number of non secretor serial killers? I wonder if any studies have been done on this?

Cimmerian, Akwilks- If your DNA tests are taking too long, just have your detective ask for Ted's secretor status. I'm certain prisons probably have to keep blood types on file for medical reasons. That would be a fast way to eliminate him, as well as the fact that Ears Ons left fingerprints at more than one crime scene.



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By PortofLeith
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3 years ago
953 Posts


Re: Non Secretors

The EAR cases, for all intents and purposes, are closed. No one can ever be prosecuted for the rapes. So I doubt they would cooperate. Fingerprints would not be a reliable way to rule Ted out since there were likely at least two "East Area Rapists" operating in Sacramento. I don't remember whether or not the nonsecretor blood found at the crime scene was found at one that was linked to ONS by DNA. Can someone refresh my memory?
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts
Fingerprints in Orange county
Fingerprints that were never eliminated as the suspect's were found at the Harrington crime scene according to the Orange County Magazine article. There is also an article that indicates the Harrington perp was a non secretor. There were two kidnapping attempts in the Sac rapes and the Maggiore murders that can still be procecuted.
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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
953 Posts
Re: Non Secretors

I would like to read those articles. As for the prints that were never eliminated, you really never can trust that kind of thing. People go in and out of houses all the time and there's no way of telling whose prints those belong to until you have a DNA confirmation of a suspect with confirmation of fingerprints. Although the kidnapping attempts and the Maggiore murders are still technically "open" there's no evidence to build a strong case, I'm afraid.


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Edited by Cimmerian10, 2 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
Member
3 years ago
1000 Posts
Do your research..
There is DNA from a rape scene in Sacramento. It was collected before any of us could have imagined what future testing would do. That Detective deserves an enormous amount of credit for the great call he made in collecting all the blood left behind that evening.. Port, that is an awfully large amount of serial killers with a non-secretor status. Scary to think about that. g
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By guessting
Member
3 years ago
2045 Posts
Re: Non Secretors
Port, that study should definitely done! That is fascinating find. I'm going to see if I can find any other serial offenders who are non secretors.
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By Bear99
Member
3 years ago
270 Posts
Non-Secretor Trickery

Here's a story of how Kenneth Bianchi tried to use non-secretor status to fool the LAPD into thinking they had the wrong man...

As bizarre as Kenny's state of mind was, it did not compare with that of his creative girlfriend, Veronica Compton. She was supposedly writing a play called The Mutilated Cutter about a woman serial killer. She wanted desperately to talk to him to understand better the mind of a murderer.

Veronica fell in love with Kenny immediately.

Kenny saw opportunity in this relationship. He made a startling proposal -- one that could, if successful, grant him the freedom to spend his life with her. If she could just go to Bellingham and strangle a girl to make it look like the same man who killed Karen Mandic and Diane Wilder. Maybe even plant semen on the murdered girl.

It was one hell of a favor to ask, but Veronica agreed immediately.Kenny was a nonsecretor, which meant in the days before DNA testing, that his blood type could not be determined from his semen. Kenny packed Veronica off to Washington with a fresh load of his semen in a plastic glove.

Once Veronica got into this project, it was a bit more intimidating than it seemed in the planning. When she arrived in Bellingham, she had to build up her courage with large amounts of alcohol and cocaine.

Finally fortified, Veronica lured a woman into driving her to a motel and coming into the room for a drink. Veronica lunged at her with a cord and tried to strangle her, but the woman was too strong and threw Veronica over. In a rare lapse into rationality, Veronica decided it was time to go back to California.

But rationality did not overstay its welcome and Veronica, when she arrived at the San Francisco airport, distinguished herself by creating a kind of hysterical disturbance. To make matters irreparably worse, Veronica sent a letter and tape to the Bellingham authorities telling them that they had arrested an innocent man and pointed to the recent strangling attempt to prove that the real culprit was still at large. It did not take terribly sophisticated police work to link the police report of the woman Veronica tried to strangle with the photo of the lady who created the disturbance in the airport that same afternoon.

Now both Kenny and Veronica were in jail.



By Marilyn Bardsley
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Edited by deadbolt, 3 years ago
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By deadbolt
Member
3 years ago
225 Posts
My opinion..
I don't believe this was even a consideration back in the 70's, blood did not mean much more than a determining what your type of blood was. I might be wrong but I doubt Mr. Ear could of ever forseen how valuable his blood would become in this case. I hope it haunts him today. It is only a matter of time. I would spare your family Mr. EAR, because it would be a shame to have them find out how evil you are after your death. You will be identified! g
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By guessting
Member
3 years ago
2045 Posts
Blood vs Saliva
If a person is blood type A, can they be identifed as a non-secretor by blood test only, or do you also need a sample of their saliva? Thanks!
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By pizzapiepan
Member
2 years ago
9 Posts
Re: Fingerprints in Orange county
Posted By: PortofLeith
Fingerprints that were never eliminated as the suspect's were found at the Harrington crime scene according to the Orange County Magazine article. There is also an article that indicates the Harrington perp was a non secretor. There were two kidnapping attempts in the Sac rapes and the Maggiore murders that can still be procecuted.
And there ought to be charges of domestic terrorism; EAR did hold a city/police force hostage. He threatened to kill his next victims if the story wasn't printed in the paper, didn't he? He also terrorized the victims he telephoned. Did he not also shoot at an officer during a stakeout?
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By ladyofthelake
Member
2 years ago
209 Posts
PortofLeith

said, "Cimmerian,Akwilks- If your DNA tests are taking too long, just have your detective ask for Ted's secretor status. I'm certain prisons probably have to keep blood types on file for medical reasons. That would be a fast way to eliminate him, as well as the fact that Ears Ons left fingerprints at more than one crime scene."

Good point. Much faster than the wait in line!


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By ladyofthelake
Member
2 years ago
209 Posts
Fingerprints
Just wondering: Are there any fingerprints matching EAR and ONS? If so, seems like fingerprints would be a valid way of eliminating TK is the EAR/ONS.
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By ladyofthelake
Member
2 years ago
209 Posts
Re: Blood vs Saliva
Posted By: pizzapiepan
If a person is blood type A, can they be identifed as a non-secretor by blood test only, or do you also need a sample of their saliva? Thanks!
Google non-secretor. The information is extensive, and you pretty much answered your own questions. Non-secretor blood type through BLOOD only. Secretors means blood type through saliva, tears, sweat, other body fluids.
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By dengas
Member
2 years ago
966 Posts

[Drifter]

Nov 22, 1981

On Nov 22, 1981 there were fifteen burglaries in the San Roque neighborhood of SAnta Barbara, where little of value was taken. Has anyone reviewed arrest records or news accounts of arrests during the ensuing dates?

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By PortofLeith
Member
4 months ago
953 Posts


Greenbelt

Stevens Park looks made to order for him. Frankilin Park/Jesusita Trail.

Cathedral Oak/Foothill Road connects ONS/Goleta and burglaries.


$1million for a condo there, Santa Barbara is expensive. You would think a rash of burglaries,in that neighborhood, would include a lot of jewelry taken. Or, at least, something of value.
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Edited by hdmi, 4 months ago
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By hdmi
Member
4 months ago
221 Posts
Re: Greenbelt
Posted By: hdmi

Stevens Park looks made to order for him. Frankilin Park/Jesusita Trail.

Cathedral Oak/Foothill Road connects ONS/Goleta and burglaries.


$1million for a condo there, Santa Barbara is expensive. You would think a rash of burglaries,in that neighborhood, would include a lot of jewelry taken. Or, at least, something of value.
That's one of the more affordable parts of Santa Barbara. The prices may seem high to you....but that isn't where wealthy live. Hope Ranch, Montecito that's where the real money is.
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By Repoman2
Member
4 months ago
95 Posts
Re: Re: Greenbelt
Posted By: Repoman2
Posted By: hdmi

Stevens Park looks made to order for him. Frankilin Park/Jesusita Trail.

Cathedral Oak/Foothill Road connects ONS/Goleta and burglaries.


$1million for a condo there, Santa Barbara is expensive. You would think a rash of burglaries,in that neighborhood, would include a lot of jewelry taken. Or, at least, something of value.
That's one of the more affordable parts of Santa Barbara. The prices may seem high to you....but that isn't where wealthy live. Hope Ranch, Montecito that's where the real money is.
I know, I looked at the homes for sale. The $700k to $1.5mil houses look like $250-300k houses in Sacramento.
Fits the EAR-ONS' prowling grounds.
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By hdmi
Member
4 months ago
221 Posts
Re: Greenbelt
Posted By: hdmi

Stevens Park looks made to order for him. Frankilin Park/Jesusita Trail.

Cathedral Oak/Foothill Road connects ONS/Goleta and burglaries.


$1million for a condo there, Santa Barbara is expensive. You would think a rash of burglaries,in that neighborhood, would include a lot of jewelry taken. Or, at least, something of value.
Yeah, the fact that there wasn't anything taken feels like ONS: He doesn't necessarily want your stuff. He wants you to know he was in your home, your space -- without you in it. And that he can do it again.
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By confidentialtwo
Member
4 months ago
16 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Greenbelt
Posted By: hdmi
Posted By: Repoman2
Posted By: hdmi

Stevens Park looks made to order for him. Frankilin Park/Jesusita Trail.

Cathedral Oak/Foothill Road connects ONS/Goleta and burglaries.


$1million for a condo there, Santa Barbara is expensive. You would think a rash of burglaries,in that neighborhood, would include a lot of jewelry taken. Or, at least, something of value.
That's one of the more affordable parts of Santa Barbara. The prices may seem high to you....but that isn't where wealthy live. Hope Ranch, Montecito that's where the real money is.
I know, I looked at the homes for sale. The $700k to $1.5mil houses look like $250-300k houses in Sacramento.
Fits the EAR-ONS' prowling grounds.
That's right. It is just a standard subdivision. The only reason the prices are so high is because it is Santa Barbara.
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By Repoman2
Member
4 months ago
95 Posts
Woman murdered in her home on Madrona in the San Roque neighborhood of Santa Barbara

I remember very clearly that a woman was murdered in her home by an intruder. The home was on Madrona, which is one street above State Street in the San Roque area of Santa Barbara. I recall it happened in the morning after her husband left for work. I can't recall the situation regarding children. I can't recall if she had children and if she did were they still in the home or had they left for school. I recall that it was speculated at the time that a burglar (possibly a transient) was staking out the neighborhood and when the man left for work the burglar thought nobody was home and went in to burglarize and was surprised to find the woman still at home and he killed her.

Now that I know about EAR/ONS I wonder if that really was the case. Did the killer target her? Was she raped? Was she bludgeoned? How was she killed? Did they ever catch the killer? What year did this happen (I cannot recall) I do not know the exact address on Madrona.

I have just been googling this crime and have come up with nothing! But I remember and it definitely happened. I seem to recall that I brought this up a few years ago on the board (I think) and I think at the time I asked a retired detective if she recalledl the case and she didn't. I wonder how we could get more information without knowing the year.
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Edited by Sandia, 4 months ago
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By Sandia
Member
4 months ago
1382 Posts
Santa Barbara Burglaries
Port- do you have any more details on where these were exactly. Were they all on the same day, NOV 21st ? And when you say things of little value can you be more specific ? I think looking at Santa Barbara/Goleta can be a key to this case. It appears the EAR/ONS may have lived here. Or he was just really smart by this time and was traveling to commit crimes. But if that's the case he would have to have lived in either Lompoc or Ventura. To reach Santa Barbara you either go 101 which if traveling from the north Goleta would be the first populated area you would hit. Or you come through the pass hwy 154 which drop you at Foothill rd. Fotthill would be the first street where you could traverse the city. If traveling from Ventura you would pass through many other neighborhoods before getting to Goleta. And the freeway used to end at a stoplight in the center of town back in the 80's. Just my two cents
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By Smitty2011
Member
4 months ago
107 Posts
Re: Santa Barbara Burglaries
Posted By: Smitty2011
Port- do you have any more details on where these were exactly. Were they all on the same day, NOV 21st ? And when you say things of little value can you be more specific ? I think looking at Santa Barbara/Goleta can be a key to this case. It appears the EAR/ONS may have lived here. Or he was just really smart by this time and was traveling to commit crimes. But if that's the case he would have to have lived in either Lompoc or Ventura. To reach Santa Barbara you either go 101 which if traveling from the north Goleta would be the first populated area you would hit. Or you come through the pass hwy 154 which drop you at Foothill rd. Fotthill would be the first street where you could traverse the city. If traveling from Ventura you would pass through many other neighborhoods before getting to Goleta. And the freeway used to end at a stoplight in the center of town back in the 80's. Just my two cents

Smitty- Actually San Luis Obispo would be hit on the 101 before Lompoc or Goleta if traveling south on the 101 from up north. So why did he bypass SLO and Atascadero? To get more information on the burglaries in San Roque someone needs to have access to the Santa Barbara News Press archives for that time period.



Sandia- I've listed the 50 SAnta Barbara unsolveds on this board before. I will need to find my list.
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Edited by PortofLeith, 4 months ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
4 months ago
953 Posts
Sandia List of Santa Barbara Unsolved- some may now be solved

Santa Barbara Police Department:
Ramona Price, 7, died in September 1961, unknown cause.

John Hood, 23, died Feb. 22, 1970, stabbing.

Sandra Garcia, 20, died Feb. 22, 1970, stabbing.

Ivan Tassin, 75, died July 12, 1970, shooting.

Mae Pearson, 67, died Sept. 28, 1973, shooting.

Alexander Orchiwski, died Dec. 20, 1974, stabbing.

Lucy Bush, 29, died Feb. 4, 1979, stabbing. Yvonne Hill, 33, died Sept. 19, 1979, shooting.

Diane Craddock, 29, died Sept. 19, 1979, shooting.

Jimmy Dent, 37, died Sept. 11, 1980, shooting.

Ricardo Gomez Alba, 22, died April 19, 1984, shooting.

Juan Pineda, 36, died May 27, 1984, shooting.

Kym Morgan, 24, died April 28, 1985, dismemberment.

Bernardino Sierra, 24, died Sept. 30, 1988, shooting.

Joseph Gonzales, 27, died Aug. 31, 1990, shooting.

Michael Ray Bailey, 41, died Nov. 10, 1990, bludgeoning.

Luis Manuel Garcia, 41, died Feb. 2, 1991, bludgeoning.

Mary Joann Gunn, 31, died May 31, 1991, shooting.

Sandra Kerr Urdaneta, 45, died July 3, 1991, shooting.

Lloyd Hembree, 39, died Aug. 12, 1991, bludgeoning.

Esther Bueno Taboada, 26, died Feb. 28, 1992, stabbing.

Ajai Khandke, 37, died Aug. 28, 1993, bludgeoning.

Frank Albert Gomez, 36, died Jan. 30, 1995, stabbing.

Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department:

Linda Faye Edwards, 17, died June 5, 1963, shooting.

Robert George Domingos, 18, died June 5, 1963, shooting.

Jane Doe, unknown age, died Aug. 3, 1969, stabbing.

Rhonda M. Brock, 26, died Jan. 18, 1971, bludgeoning.

Karen Signore, 21, died May 10, 1971, shooting.

Eva Davidson Taylor, 73, died April 18, 1974, bludgeoning

Janet Gold, 28, died Jan. 13, 1975, stabbing.

Nadine Marie Kopplin, 20, died Feb. 22, 1975, bludgeoning.

Earl Eugene Scoggins, 41, Jeannie O'Neal died May 31, 1975, shooting.

Paul Anthony Ornelas, 15, died June 21, 1975, bludgeoning.

Lori Lynn Rosen, 19, died March 7, 1977, strangulation.

Henry Hernandez Gonzales, 35, died May 21, 1977, shooting.

Gary Richard Longstreet, 26, died Aug. 18, 1977, stabbing.

Joseph Nicholas DiLando, 58, died June 21, 1978, shooting.

Sylvester Sly Stanford, 22, died July 1, 1978, shooting.

James J. Oppen, 59, died Aug. 29, 1979, bludgeoning.

Debra A. Manning, 35, died Dec. 30, 1979, shooting. Robert Offerman, 44, died Dec. 30, 1979, shooting.

Craig Carl Kuhn, 29, died Dec. 6, 1980, strangulation.

Gregory Sanchez, 27, died July 26, 1981, bludgeoning. Cheryl Domingo, 35, died July 26, 1981, bludgeoning.

Marie Lilienberg, 23, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown. Maria Wahlen, 25, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown.

Mitch Garcia, unknown age, died Feb. 10, 1988, shooting.

Vernon Hart Kendrick, 46, died July 1, 1988, bludgeoning.

Patrick M. Whitthar, 35, died Aug. 17, 1990, shooting.

Reginaldo O. Hernandez, 24, died Aug. 21, 1993, shooting.
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Edited by PortofLeith, 4 months ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
4 months ago
953 Posts
Outrage
This makes me sick..how can this many people be murdered and no one is held accountable. It would be interesting to know the facts surrounding these cases. I wonder how many will be solved. G
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By guessting
Member
4 months ago
2045 Posts
Re: Nov 22, 1981
Marie Lilienberg, 23, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown. Maria Wahlen, 25, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown.

How can they pinpoint the date of death but not know what they died from?
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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
4 months ago
469 Posts
Thank you Port Re: Sandia List of Santa Barbara Unsolved- some may now be solved
Posted By: PortofLeith

Santa Barbara Police Department:
Ramona Price, 7, died in September 1961, unknown cause.

John Hood, 23, died Feb. 22, 1970, stabbing.

Sandra Garcia, 20, died Feb. 22, 1970, stabbing.

Ivan Tassin, 75, died July 12, 1970, shooting.

Mae Pearson, 67, died Sept. 28, 1973, shooting.

Alexander Orchiwski, died Dec. 20, 1974, stabbing.

Lucy Bush, 29, died Feb. 4, 1979, stabbing. Yvonne Hill, 33, died Sept. 19, 1979, shooting.

Diane Craddock, 29, died Sept. 19, 1979, shooting.

Jimmy Dent, 37, died Sept. 11, 1980, shooting.

Ricardo Gomez Alba, 22, died April 19, 1984, shooting.

Juan Pineda, 36, died May 27, 1984, shooting.

Kym Morgan, 24, died April 28, 1985, dismemberment.

Bernardino Sierra, 24, died Sept. 30, 1988, shooting.

Joseph Gonzales, 27, died Aug. 31, 1990, shooting.

Michael Ray Bailey, 41, died Nov. 10, 1990, bludgeoning.

Luis Manuel Garcia, 41, died Feb. 2, 1991, bludgeoning.

Mary Joann Gunn, 31, died May 31, 1991, shooting.

Sandra Kerr Urdaneta, 45, died July 3, 1991, shooting.

Lloyd Hembree, 39, died Aug. 12, 1991, bludgeoning.

Esther Bueno Taboada, 26, died Feb. 28, 1992, stabbing.

Ajai Khandke, 37, died Aug. 28, 1993, bludgeoning.

Frank Albert Gomez, 36, died Jan. 30, 1995, stabbing.

Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department:

Linda Faye Edwards, 17, died June 5, 1963, shooting.

Robert George Domingos, 18, died June 5, 1963, shooting.

Jane Doe, unknown age, died Aug. 3, 1969, stabbing.

Rhonda M. Brock, 26, died Jan. 18, 1971, bludgeoning.

Karen Signore, 21, died May 10, 1971, shooting.

Eva Davidson Taylor, 73, died April 18, 1974, bludgeoning

Janet Gold, 28, died Jan. 13, 1975, stabbing.

Nadine Marie Kopplin, 20, died Feb. 22, 1975, bludgeoning.

Earl Eugene Scoggins, 41, Jeannie O'Neal died May 31, 1975, shooting.

Paul Anthony Ornelas, 15, died June 21, 1975, bludgeoning.

Lori Lynn Rosen, 19, died March 7, 1977, strangulation.

Henry Hernandez Gonzales, 35, died May 21, 1977, shooting.

Gary Richard Longstreet, 26, died Aug. 18, 1977, stabbing.

Joseph Nicholas DiLando, 58, died June 21, 1978, shooting.

Sylvester Sly Stanford, 22, died July 1, 1978, shooting.

James J. Oppen, 59, died Aug. 29, 1979, bludgeoning.

Debra A. Manning, 35, died Dec. 30, 1979, shooting. Robert Offerman, 44, died Dec. 30, 1979, shooting.

Craig Carl Kuhn, 29, died Dec. 6, 1980, strangulation.

Gregory Sanchez, 27, died July 26, 1981, bludgeoning. Cheryl Domingo, 35, died July 26, 1981, bludgeoning.

Marie Lilienberg, 23, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown. Maria Wahlen, 25, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown.

Mitch Garcia, unknown age, died Feb. 10, 1988, shooting.

Vernon Hart Kendrick, 46, died July 1, 1988, bludgeoning.

Patrick M. Whitthar, 35, died Aug. 17, 1990, shooting.

Reginaldo O. Hernandez, 24, died Aug. 21, 1993, shooting.
Thank you Port, I will see if I can use this information to find out which one the victim was. I almost didn't see this post as I have been hit and miss on the board lately. As soon as I can manage it I will go to Santa Barbara to see what I can find.
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By Sandia
Member
4 months ago
1382 Posts
Re: Re: Nov 22, 1981
Posted By: the confidence is the balaclava
Marie Lilienberg, 23, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown. Maria Wahlen, 25, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown.

How can they pinpoint the date of death but not know what they died from?
I found this information on these two unfortunate girls:

Real Name: Marie Lilienberg and Maria Wahien
Nicknames: No Known Nicknames
Location: Redwood City, California
Date: July 22, 1983

Details: Marie Lilienberg and Maria Wahien were two Swedish maids who went hitchiking throughout California during the Summer of 1983. They were last seen alive on July 22, while hitchiking near Redwood City. Two days later, their backpacks, passports, and other items were found in a dumpster in the City of Commerce. Four weeks later, two deer hunters found their brutally murdered bodies in the woods near Santa Barbara, California.
Suspects: In 1991, an anonomyous caller told authorities that a man named "Loren" was responsible for the murders. The caller told that he was from Canada and that he apparently hated women. He also drove from Canada to Mexico during the summer in a white van. He was over 6'0", slight build, 170 pounds, and red hair.
Extra Notes: This segment originally aired on the April 8, 1992 episode of Unsolved Mysteries .
Results: Unresolved. The anonomyous caller later came forward and helped police locate the man named "Loren". However, there was not enough substantial evidence to convict him for the crimes. "Loren" was later arrested and convicted in other crimes, but has never been charged with the murders.
"Loren" is believed to be Loren Joseph Herzog. He and Wesley Shermantine were dubbed the "Speed Freak Killers." Herzog died of suicide on January 16, 2012, and Shermantine is currently on death row. This duo is suspected of the murders of at least 15 people.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what I did to get this suposed video below or how to get rid of it, so just ignore what follows.










































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Edited by Sandia, 4 months ago
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By Sandia
Member
4 months ago
1382 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Nov 22, 1981
Posted By: Sandia
Posted By: the confidence is the balaclava
Marie Lilienberg, 23, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown. Maria Wahlen, 25, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown.

How can they pinpoint the date of death but not know what they died from?
I found this information on these two unfortunate girls:

Real Name: Marie Lilienberg and Maria Wahien
Nicknames: No Known Nicknames
Location: Redwood City, California
Date: July 22, 1983

Details: Marie Lilienberg and Maria Wahien were two Swedish maids who went hitchiking throughout California during the Summer of 1983. They were last seen alive on July 22, while hitchiking near Redwood City. Two days later, their backpacks, passports, and other items were found in a dumpster in the City of Commerce. Four weeks later, two deer hunters found their brutally murdered bodies in the woods near Santa Barbara, California.
Suspects: In 1991, an anonomyous caller told authorities that a man named "Loren" was responsible for the murders. The caller told that he was from Canada and that he apparently hated women. He also drove from Canada to Mexico during the summer in a white van. He was over 6'0", slight build, 170 pounds, and red hair.
Extra Notes: This segment originally aired on the April 8, 1992 episode of Unsolved Mysteries .
Results: Unresolved. The anonomyous caller later came forward and helped police locate the man named "Loren". However, there was not enough substantial evidence to convict him for the crimes. "Loren" was later arrested and convicted in other crimes, but has never been charged with the murders.
"Loren" is believed to be Loren Joseph Herzog. He and Wesley Shermantine were dubbed the "Speed Freak Killers." Herzog died of suicide on January 16, 2012, and Shermantine is currently on death row. This duo is suspected of the murders of at least 15 people.


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I don't know what I did to get this suposed video below or how to get rid of it, so just ignore what follows.










































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Loren Herzog was born 12/8/1965. The murders occured on 7/22/1983. He would have only been 17 1/2 at the time. The first known murders he and Shermantine were believed to have committed were in 1984, and his crimes occurred in the Central Valley. Loren was a scumbag but I believe the wrong scumbag for this crime. I think he was a little too young and way outside his comfort range dumping bodies in Santa Barbara.
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By conquistador1521
Member
4 months ago
388 Posts
Re: Thank you Port Re: Sandia List of Santa Barbara Unsolved- some may now be solved
Posted By: Sandia
Posted By: PortofLeith

Santa Barbara Police Department:
Ramona Price, 7, died in September 1961, unknown cause.

John Hood, 23, died Feb. 22, 1970, stabbing.

Sandra Garcia, 20, died Feb. 22, 1970, stabbing.

Ivan Tassin, 75, died July 12, 1970, shooting.

Mae Pearson, 67, died Sept. 28, 1973, shooting.

Alexander Orchiwski, died Dec. 20, 1974, stabbing.

Lucy Bush, 29, died Feb. 4, 1979, stabbing. Yvonne Hill, 33, died Sept. 19, 1979, shooting.

Diane Craddock, 29, died Sept. 19, 1979, shooting.

Jimmy Dent, 37, died Sept. 11, 1980, shooting.

Ricardo Gomez Alba, 22, died April 19, 1984, shooting.

Juan Pineda, 36, died May 27, 1984, shooting.

Kym Morgan, 24, died April 28, 1985, dismemberment.

Bernardino Sierra, 24, died Sept. 30, 1988, shooting.

Joseph Gonzales, 27, died Aug. 31, 1990, shooting.

Michael Ray Bailey, 41, died Nov. 10, 1990, bludgeoning.

Luis Manuel Garcia, 41, died Feb. 2, 1991, bludgeoning.

Mary Joann Gunn, 31, died May 31, 1991, shooting.

Sandra Kerr Urdaneta, 45, died July 3, 1991, shooting.

Lloyd Hembree, 39, died Aug. 12, 1991, bludgeoning.

Esther Bueno Taboada, 26, died Feb. 28, 1992, stabbing.

Ajai Khandke, 37, died Aug. 28, 1993, bludgeoning.

Frank Albert Gomez, 36, died Jan. 30, 1995, stabbing.

Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department:

Linda Faye Edwards, 17, died June 5, 1963, shooting.

Robert George Domingos, 18, died June 5, 1963, shooting.

Jane Doe, unknown age, died Aug. 3, 1969, stabbing.

Rhonda M. Brock, 26, died Jan. 18, 1971, bludgeoning.

Karen Signore, 21, died May 10, 1971, shooting.

Eva Davidson Taylor, 73, died April 18, 1974, bludgeoning

Janet Gold, 28, died Jan. 13, 1975, stabbing.

Nadine Marie Kopplin, 20, died Feb. 22, 1975, bludgeoning.

Earl Eugene Scoggins, 41, Jeannie O'Neal died May 31, 1975, shooting.

Paul Anthony Ornelas, 15, died June 21, 1975, bludgeoning.

Lori Lynn Rosen, 19, died March 7, 1977, strangulation.

Henry Hernandez Gonzales, 35, died May 21, 1977, shooting.

Gary Richard Longstreet, 26, died Aug. 18, 1977, stabbing.

Joseph Nicholas DiLando, 58, died June 21, 1978, shooting.

Sylvester Sly Stanford, 22, died July 1, 1978, shooting.

James J. Oppen, 59, died Aug. 29, 1979, bludgeoning.

Debra A. Manning, 35, died Dec. 30, 1979, shooting. Robert Offerman, 44, died Dec. 30, 1979, shooting.

Craig Carl Kuhn, 29, died Dec. 6, 1980, strangulation.

Gregory Sanchez, 27, died July 26, 1981, bludgeoning. Cheryl Domingo, 35, died July 26, 1981, bludgeoning.

Marie Lilienberg, 23, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown. Maria Wahlen, 25, died Aug. 18, 1983, unknown.

Mitch Garcia, unknown age, died Feb. 10, 1988, shooting.

Vernon Hart Kendrick, 46, died July 1, 1988, bludgeoning.

Patrick M. Whitthar, 35, died Aug. 17, 1990, shooting.

Reginaldo O. Hernandez, 24, died Aug. 21, 1993, shooting.
Thank you Port, I will see if I can use this information to find out which one the victim was. I almost didn't see this post as I have been hit and miss on the board lately. As soon as I can manage it I will go to Santa Barbara to see what I can find.
If ONS is still alive today, this could be one of his "doubles":
Lindsay Cutshall, 22, and her fiance Jason S. Allen, 26, were found on Fish Head Beach, between Russian Gulch and the mouth of the Russian River, in the small coastal hamlet of Jenner, California. Both Cutshall and Allen were killed with a .45-caliber Marlin rifle as they slept in their sleeping bags on the beach. The Sonoma County Coroner's Office estimated that the couple was slain on either the night of August 14, 2004 or in the early morning hours of August 15, 2004.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Jenner,_California_double-murder#Police_release_information_2006
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By ONSTracker
Member
4 months ago
37 Posts
Re: Nov 22, 1981
No. A traveling Canadian psychopath killed those kids. They just didnt have the evidence to convict him for it. I believe he is in prison for another crime or dead.

He killed a couple. Couples get killed by people other than earons. Earons crimes were well thought out and involved ritual, because they were his fantasies.
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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
4 months ago
469 Posts
Gosh Bala!!!
You should call LE and tell them you've solved the case. I'm sure they will be interested in hearing what you have to say. G
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By guessting
Member
4 months ago
2045 Posts
Re: Nov 22, 1981
Just passing along dubious 2nd hand information, like you.
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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
4 months ago
469 Posts
Jenner Beach Murders - Not ONS. Not Burgess either

Upon further invesitation, it couldn't be ONS because they have some DNA. I would hope they would have checked the DNA against the CODIS database, which would have caught a match.

However, there are many similarities:

Lindsay Cutshall, 22 of Ohio and Jason Allen, 26, of Michigan were found shot to death at Fishhead Beach just north of Jenner on August 18, 2004. The engaged couple had been on a weekend trip from their summer jobs as counselors at the Rock-N-Water Christian Adventure Camp in Coloma.

Cutshall and Allen were found in sleeping bags zipped together at the foot of a cliff. Each had been shot in the head. There was no sign of a struggle or other assault. The couple's valuables and red 1993 Ford Tempo were not taken.

In processing the murder scene, investigators gathered evidence they are now publizicing in the hopes it will generate new leads.

The items are:

Entries in an informal journal left for beach visitors in a make-shift driftwood structure near the victims. Detectives would like to learn the identities of the authors.

*Entry #1 - Salutation from - "Friendly neighborhood Spiderman friend & sidekick!"

*Entry #2 - Another salutation from "Your friendly neighbor hood friend, Spiderman, 7/25/04" with a response, "Ha Ha Ha Spiderman, A, 8/12 A+, the Drifting Inn"

*Entry #3 - Contains a unique signature in the upper right corner and then contains a brief writing by "Chrissie" from "Auburn 7/10/04"

*Entry #4 - A rhyme talking about Santa Claus, leprechauns, and the tooth fairy.

*Entry #5 - This entry is dated 8/4/04 and signed by a uniquely written letter "R." It begins with the following: "At the Driftwood Inn, alone again, outside of myself and placid as hell ... "

Camo 40 beer bottle near the victims


Drawings of devil-like faces on driftwood found near the victims


A black-and-white patterned hat partially made with black and white fur that was located on a turn-out on Highway 1 above the beach


Not found was a necklace reportedly given to Cutshall shortly before the killings. The necklace was a transparent blue stone on what could be a leather cord.

Detectives know the murder weapon was a .45 caliber Marlin semi-automatic or lever action rifle. It has not been located.

DNA evidence which may have been deposited by the killer was also collected at the crime site, investigators say.

On July 21, 2009, the Los Angeles Times reported that Sonoma County Sheriff's detectives had named Joseph Henry Burgess as a suspect in the Jenner slayings. Burgess, who fled to Canada during the Vietnam War and joined a cult, is also a suspect in the murders of two campers on Vancouver Island in 1972.

Burgess grew up in New Jersey and began drifting around the United States and Canada as a young adult. He was known to carry a .22-caliber rifle. Furthermore, Burgess was alleged to have a hatred for unmarried couples who slept together. Detectives believe this could have precipitated the attack on Cutshall and Allen.

On July 16, 2009, Joseph Henry Burgess was killed in a shootout with law enforcement officers in Sandoval County, New Mexico. Over the last several years, home owners in Sandoval County had been experiencing problems with a serial burglar in their community who would break into homes and steal food and valuables. Surveillance of several homes in Sandoval County was set up in an attempt to catch the burglar. On July 16, Burgess broke into a Sandoval County home which was being watched by sheriff's deputies. After entering the residence, Burgess and Sandoval County Sheriff's Sergeant Joe Harris got into a gun battle. Burgess mortally wounded Sgt. Harris, but Harris shot Burgess twice in the head, killing Burgess instantly.[10]

After further analysis it was determined that DNA samples did not match Burgess with the Cutshall and Allen murders. Sonoma County Sheriff's department investigators traveled to New Mexico to compare evidence with DNA and a spent bullet in the case of a police shooting there with an unidentified piece of DNA found at the Jenner crime scene but there was no match.


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By ONSTracker
Member
4 months ago
37 Posts

[Drifter]

November 1974

sites.google.com/site/jjmcgr/VR3.jpg

VR TIMELINE

Friday 11/1/1974 5 burglaries

Saturday 11/2/1974 3 burglaries

Friday 11/15/1974 Jennifer Lynn Armour abducted (by who??)

Friday 11/29/1974 2 burglaries

Saturday 11/30/1974 11 burglaries

We know the VR seemed to be active especially on Friday and Saturday nights. We know the VR was familiar with the place where Jennifer was last seen and where her body was found. Jennifer was found with her hands ties behind her back with her own bra found floating in the Friant Canal. She was last seen near K Mart headed to a football game.

DECEMBER 1975

Wednesday 12/10/1975 after committing a burglary he gets into a shootout withDet.McGowan.

Donna Jo Richmond is abducted sometime in late December while riding her bike in Exeter.

12/26/1975 Donna's body is found (Did the VR strike one more time before heading towards Sacramento??)

The other strong connection, to me, has to do with Donna's items being found close to where some of the VR's items were located (in a ditch). The items were located about five miles southeast of any of the VR activity. Ironic??? - posted by dengas

There was a striped ski mask found in the same area where Donna's body was found (orange grove east of Spruce on Marionette (sp.?). The ski mask had light colored hairs in it. Those hairs NEED TO BE TESTED. Under hypnosis, Beth Snelling described her father's murderer as wearing a striped ski mask. - dengas

It is time for the DNA evidence in the Donna Jo Richmond case to be tested ! ! !

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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago

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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts

Interesting information..........

especially the ski mask bit; at first I was 50-50 but after the ski mask thing I am thinking there might be something here and not only must the hairs be tested but I would have thought that they would have been tested by now given the advances in forensics; whoever carried out the murder most probably used a vehicle which brings me round to the question does anyone know of any info regarding use of vehicles by the VR ?

I was thinking this guy would not be dumb enough to leave such evidence with a dumped body but considering that this was pre-DNA era maybe he thought there wont get anything that would lead back to him: My conclusion: the area and the body and everything looks fishy! there could be a connection

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Edited by DanCartell, 2 years ago

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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts

FINALLY
Finally, please people...consider Jennifer, Donna, and Beth in the same breath. It was last year when I found out that the lady at the Blue Chip Stamp Redemption Center, who spoke of a guy who had turned in around 60 books in 1973-SEPTEMBER of 1975, also lived out the that area of Visalia...12 miles from K-Mart area. Please read my post regarding DNA and Oscar. Also, please remember that I only met Oscar ONCE, in 1983. At that time I was trying to link Mark S. to the VR. I saw him on the Friday before Donna's murder. He was working for my boss on a rental house. I didn't know who he was, but another secretary told me his name and said something to the effect, "That's Oscar. He's a really nice guy. Too bad he's crippled." By Monday, he had been arrested for murder. I said, "Yeah, nice guy." But then, when my boss had to appear in court, and I found out how he was convicted -- HIS
HUGE RECEIPT BOOK found 3' in front of Donna's bicycle, I started wondering about his guilt. ONLY DNA will tell the truth...ONLY DNA. Let's pray that the results will come in before Oscar's death (riddled with cancer).

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By dengas
Member
2 years ago
966 Posts

June 1976

First confirmed EAR attack in Rancho Cordova "He tied her bra around her ankles." Sudden Terror pg 6

Jennifer Armour's hands were tied behind her back with her own bra - November 1974

Interesting coincidence......

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Edited by conquistador1521, 2 years ago

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By conquistador1521
Member
2 years ago
388 Posts

For certain?
I've only heard about hands/bra behind back from a friend of a friend who worked at Kaweah Delta Hospital with Jennifer's brother. I've never seen anything other than newspaper articles on Jennifer.

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By dengas
Member
2 years ago
966 Posts

Snelling Info???
I remember reading an old thread/article that had a lot of good info pertaining to the Snelling case, referring to several suspicious incidents in the months leading up to the shooting. There was mention of an erratic driver who targeted the Snellings while they were out walking one evening. Anyone remember or have a link to this?

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By ZForce
Member
2 years ago
503 Posts

ZForce
I don't think it was the Snellings who were almost hit. I obtained the handwritten report from someone who was a neighbor of the Snellings. The name of the couple was similar to Snelling and they lived on the southeast corner of Campus and Verde Vista. Their daughter had a different name, and she was either a letterette or on the cheer-leading squad. I don't have my files right now, or I would retype the report for you. I believe that the incident happened on 9/11/75, and that the couple were outside paying attention to the police cars in the neighborhood.

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By dengas
Member
2 years ago
966 Posts

Re: ZForce
Posted By: dengas
I don't think it was the Snellings who were almost hit. I obtained the handwritten report from someone who was a neighbor of the Snellings. The name of the couple was similar to Snelling and they lived on the southeast corner of Campus and Verde Vista. Their daughter had a different name, and she was either a letterette or on the cheer-leading squad. I don't have my files right now, or I would retype the report for you. I believe that the incident happened on 9/11/75, and that the couple were outside paying attention to the police cars in the neighborhood.
Thanks for clarifying. There was more in depth info regarding the Snelling's and prowlers too though, right?

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By ZForce
Member
2 years ago
503 Posts

Z-Force
I believe that Mr. Snelling had chased off a prowler in the spring of '75. Guessting, do you have the date? Yes, Mr. Snelling gave a description of the guy. Someone who worked with Mr. Snelling at COS also confirmed that he had had a prowler.

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By dengas
Member
2 years ago
966 Posts

[Drifter]

Occupation

What would've given this guy the opportunities to survey neighborhoods and pick upon the weaknesses of someones family routine?/

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By JWBTXS
Member
3 years ago
335 Posts

WB: Occupation

Hi JWB--

A variety of different occupations could have provided him the opportunity to conduct surveillance on these neighborhoods. According to SCSD, the following occupations were supposedly studied: postal delivery people; pizza delivery people; meter readers; etc. He hasn't been caught; therefore, we don't know the specific details. In spite of that, I get the impression that he was young when he started out. Perhaps he was a paper boy--for starters. What are your thoughts on it?



AE7
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By AngelEyes7
Member
3 years ago
247 Posts
Occupation
My money is on one of the skilled trades. Like electrician or plumber.
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By f1guyus
Member
3 years ago
1283 Posts
Bad Habits
There'snot to many prebuecnt jobs one could hold down esp. the urge too ransack where do you get that?
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By JWBTXS
Member
3 years ago
335 Posts
Bad Habits?
Bad Habits' Had to have a start and a stop..Visalia..Why whould someone move,
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By JWBTXS
Member
3 years ago
335 Posts
Why would someone move

JW,
We were discussing serial rapist/murderer Barrie Hill in another thread. Hill entered the military in 1968 and was still in the military when he was fianlly arrested in 1975. I bet his crimes traveled with him to each posting. Hill was a Staff Sergeant in the Marines and was still able to find time to roam the nights raping 40+women(and he was married at the time as well).

I believe that the Visalia Ransacker was not a local. Whether he was nearby visiting relatives or commuting, I believe the move to Sacramento was Mather related. Lemoore NAS is closer to Visalia than Bakersfield and at least one young soldier was traveling to other cities to rape.

Bakersfield Californian March 30, 1977

Jury trial set on rape charge

"A Superior Court jury trialis scheduled April 25 forRobert XXXXXXXXX 21-year-old Lemoore Naval Air Station recruit, accused of kidnaping and raping a 24-year-old south Bakersfield woman, robbery and forcing his victim into an unnatural sex act at the point of a knife.The woman told Bakersfield police she was enteringher car in the 1500 block of 20th Street Feb. 4, when a man she identified as XXXXXXX forced his way into the car,drove a short distance then raped her after displaying a knife. He freed her in the 3900 block of Rosedale Highway and fled with her car,police said."
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Edited by PortofLeith, 3 years ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
963 Posts
Why would anyone move?
As I said on another post I don't think the Ransacker was from Visalia either. But I think he was from nearby. And believe me by 1970 or so lots of young people wanted to get out of the Southern San Joaquin Valley. It's hot (100+) in the summertime, doesn't cool off much at night, dry, dusty and the work there is mostly agricultural. In other words hard. So by the third generation a whole lot of Valley kids wanted OUT. Some went into the professions, some joined the military and lots of them just went someplace where it wasn't so flippin hot. You haven't lived 'till you have walked across a cotton field in Bakersfield in August. And I didn't have to work, just walk across it.
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By f1guyus
Member
3 years ago
1283 Posts
Re: Occupation
Hod carrier in his teens over the summer
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By alicianotorius
Member
3 years ago
102 Posts
Re: Occupation
Interest in real estate as an adult, always going to open houses-
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By alicianotorius
Member
3 years ago
102 Posts
Re: Occupation

transmission mechanic who learned how to work on small aircraft and boat engines
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Edited by alicianotorius, 3 years ago
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By alicianotorius
Member
3 years ago
102 Posts
Re: Occupation
Some skill always in demand, reasonably lucrative. Let him work as he wanted, probably did a lot of work for cash. Even in the 70's the underground economy in Cal was pretty good sized. Maybe Heating/Air Conditioning repair. Big demand in the Central Valley, not so much on the coast.
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By f1guyus
Member
3 years ago
1283 Posts
Occupation
We also need to keep in mind that the southern San Joaquin Valley has oil and lots of it. There is also off shore drilling near Goleta, Ventura and Dana Point. Maybe he attempted to go to CSUS after leaving the Air Force and either got into real estate, aviation mechanics or a base contractor job. The locations seem to have commonalities: lots of military bases, realtors, victims at one time in the same hospital or in the case of Goleta, the victims practically lived next door to each other.
F1guyus- You are right- a home repairman or construction worker would gain access to floor plans , etc. and become familiar with neighborhood schedules. a tree trimmer also would have a great view of the neighborhood or the phone guys who climb polls.
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By PortofLeith
Member
3 years ago
963 Posts
Problem Being

If I'm smart enough to spot all these possibilities now I sure hope the cops were then.



And after reflecting for a while this guy didn't have a job maybe until he surfaced in SoCal. Anything that let him move around freely in the East Sac area LE would have thought of and investigated. If the cops working the case didn't think of it the victims and their families would have. Probably came to Sac as a student, (or told his family that) had an allowance. Might have registered at SacState or American River Jr College or one of the other schools in the area, but I doubt it. I remember the hunt and some of the things LE did. They really wanted this guy and never got a whiff of a good suspect.
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Edited by f1guyus, 3 years ago
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By f1guyus
Member
3 years ago
1283 Posts