Set 26

[Drifter]

Stan Los

It's unfortunate that JJMCGR's interview with Stan Los does not address or inquire about a physical description of the assailant, as I understand the assailant was unmasked as he fled the Queen Ann Lane scene.

Does anyone know if Los ever gave a description of the man he was chasing? Specifically, I'd like to know what the subject's hair color was.

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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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2 years


Re: Stan Los
I think it was a simple as: dirty blond white guy with shoulder length hair speeding away on a bike wearing a pendelton type shirt and with some sort of a holster on his belt.

I could be mistaken about the holster though.
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By erikdavid5111
Member
2 years ago
555 Posts
Re: Stan Los

This is from a direct quote from Stan Los:

Stan saw the attacker for a matter of only 4 - 5 seconds as the attacked came across the lawn on a bike, turned away from Stan and peddled away hard.

Attacker was wearing a "subdued blue or gray plaid type" shirt, jeans, and white tennis shoes.

Other than that, all he could be sure of was that it was a white male.

He also says whent he attacker ditched the knife and fled on foot, he decided not to pursue him because he knew the Sherrif's cars were on their way and didn't want the officers mistakenly pursuing him.


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Edited by erikdavid5111, 2 years ago
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By erikdavid5111
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2 years ago
555 Posts
Re: Re: Stan Los
Posted By: erikdavid5111

This is from a direct quote from Stan Los:

Stan saw the attacker for a matter of only 4 - 5 seconds as the attacked came across the lawn on a bike, turned away from Stan and peddled away hard.

Attacker was wearing a "subdued blue or gray plaid type" shirt, jeans, and white tennis shoes.

Other than that, all he could be sure of was that it was a white male.

He also says whent he attacker ditched the knife and fled on foot, he decided not to pursue him because he knew the Sherrif's cars were on their way and didn't want the officers mistakenly pursuing him.


Interesting info indeed.........do you what type of knife it was?
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By DanCartell
Member
2 years ago
683 Posts
Re: Stan Los
Dan, I believe it was a knife taken from the victims' own kitchen.
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
Member
2 years ago
1090 Posts

[Drifter]

Still Alive?

It is banded about that EAR / ONS is either dead or in prison, but I am taking the view that he is still alive and well.

A lot of work goes in to saying that if a serial killer stops they must be dead or incarcerated, and cannot blend in to or fit in to being a model citizen.

Killing is an impulse inside of them and one they cannot resist. Much like a kleptomaniac.

But, these people can stop killing for a while. These all make choices. They are very methodical about what they do. Their fantasies are elaborate. They're not spree killers. These are cold, thinking, often extremely intelligent individuals who make plans.

The most satisfaction they get is the memories of their crimes. They can relive the fantasy they acted out, and this is better than reality. They may stop killing, but they have achieved their fantasy.

If our killer decides to drop out of sight, he can just relieve his crimes to satisfy himself.

In the case of EAR / ONS, I think, that in his mind, he had to stop while he was ahead of LE. He had been active for 5 years, then inactive for 5 years, and then came back for Janelle Cruz after a major stress in his private life, to target Janelle or just to prove he could still be what he was 5 years prior, but decided that after that he could cool off, and never return.

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Edited by greg26011979, 1 year ago

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By greg26011979
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1 year ago
267 Posts


C2
Are you referring to the username 'fleastiff' who in 5/09 posted several times following the LA Times article which was published immediately after the Husted murders at Faria Beach?

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Edited by Grundle, 5 months ago

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By Grundle
Member
5 months ago
60 Posts

No it's not "fleastiff"
Hello, Grundle. I was referring to another poster on that page in "archives" section at the bottom. Here's a cut-and-paste.
The message: It's the original Night Stalker.The night before this murder there was a TV show on cable about the ONS. I think it was on A&E.Specifically refered to the Ventura murder about 10 yrs ago.Cop talked about how he thinks the killer is still alive even though he hadn't killed for yrs.As I watched the show, I thought "this guy is camping in the bushes so he can stalk the victims."I also got the impression that the ONS may have pre-stalked victims in order to come back later and have all the info he needed to make his kill.Wasn't there a camp site near this house? (I saw that in a previous news report)That is your big lead. This killer used that camp site in the past. And he stalked these people.I suspect that TV show brought him back out.I bet he had stalked that couple or house in the past.Perhaps before they ever even had the kids.Posted by: Tor | May 28, 2009 at 04:43 PM

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[Drifter]

Summer Absences

This could be one explanation. Ths article is about a May 1977 rape in Bakersfield. The sentencing back then was really quite astounding:

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/6months.jpg



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By PortofLeith
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2 years ago
954 Posts


Re: Summer Absences

Port, that makes me wonder if this guy didn't perhaps get caught for rape early on. Caught and arrested for a more "typical" and reckless rape where the victim saw his face and the attack didn't much resemble his later MO.... So, he then goes away and has plenty of time to think up the "perfect" MO that he will later apply once he's out and has settled back into society..... If so, this could mean his name's in there somewhere. Maybe we could look at the standard first offense sentence back then and look for arrests about that far prior to the first known EAR attack....
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Edited by erikdavid5111, 2 years ago
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By erikdavid5111
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2 years ago
570 Posts
Re: Summer Absences

This would actually line up kind of with the Snelling murder. If VR is indeed EAR: attempting to abduct Beth Snelling was certainly a different and more risky MO than his EAR attacks. Of course, he could have just been trying to take her into the backyard like he did with other EAR victims, but as long as the thinking is he was trying to abduct her, let's go with it..... So, he gets away with that and is still pumped up, so he goes and commits (or attempts) a reckless rape and is caught.....
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Edited by erikdavid5111, 2 years ago
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By erikdavid5111
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2 years ago
570 Posts
Very possible and there is more

Erik,
You are right. I am not completely convinced he fits the classic peeper, burglar, hot prowl , rapist, murderer evolution. He could have even been doing something like this, spaced apart. Think belt buckle as you read this:

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/anotherceres.jpg



Then for those that think "rogue cop", think of the incredibly poor judgement this officer used during the height of the attacks:

i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/phonecalls.jpg
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Edited by PortofLeith, 2 years ago
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By PortofLeith
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2 years ago
954 Posts
Re: Summer Absences
Whoa, was that first guy ever caught?

You gotta think trial and error figure into this guy's evolution.
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By erikdavid5111
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2 years ago
570 Posts
Re: Re: Summer Absences
Posted By: erikdavid5111
Whoa, was that first guy ever caught?

You gotta think trial and error figure into this guy's evolution.
Or he could have picked up some hints from other rapists while in jail...
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By Arbed
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2 years ago
278 Posts
Re: Summer Absences
These are two good cases we need to follow up on them.
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By Peterlee
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2 years ago
319 Posts
Re: Summer Absences

Perhaps it was as simple as having a child or children out of school. Spending time doing something of worth placated the need to do the other thing.
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Edited by Vminor, 2 years ago
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By Vminor
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2 years ago
49 Posts
25 Year Old Modesto Policeman Making Obscene Phone Calls?
I sure hope somebody in LE had a good look at this guy. Be a shame if the dude turned out to be EAR after all these years.
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By f1guyus
Member
2 years ago
1270 Posts
Ceres Turlock Rapist not Caught

The rapist who tied up the women in Ceres and Turlock at long barrell gun point apparently was never caught. This blurb appeared with Claude Snelling's murder throughout 1975 in the Fresno Bee "Secret Witness".


Vminor- or how about a girlfriend home from college?
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Edited by PortofLeith, 2 years ago
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By PortofLeith
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2 years ago
954 Posts
EARONS Pants

Port,

When EARONS did wear pants.....were they always thought to be polyester? In Crompton's book, the victims state he wore dark pants. Was he ever known to wear jeans of any type? Thanks.
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By JaneDoe
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2 years ago
366 Posts
Polyester vs Jeans

Jeans in the 70s

Before the 70s era, jeans were assigned to the working class, namely farmers and others who toiled outside in the dirt and mud.

But when the casualness of the late 1960s made its way into the next decade, jeans in the 70s (a.k.a. dungarees) weaseled their way into the closets of mainstream America.

Young people, especially, started wearing jeans daily and public schools slowly began adding them to the list of acceptable dress. College kids generally had several pairs in their wardrobe so jeans tended to be standard dress on America’s campuses in the 70s.

The most classic jeans in the 70s were bell bottoms. These were worn by both men and women. They tended to be quite tight at the top and flared only from the knee down to the ankle.

They were a must-have for anyone who was in-the-know and wanted to be the height of fashion.

Later in the decade, bell bottoms were out and stone-washed jeans became popular. Generally straight cut, these jeans were washed in a particular way so as to fade the color before they were sent to stores for display.

Hence, jeans wearers could now choose a lighter-colored pair of jeans and weren’t limited to the dark indigo color of days gone by.

Pre-shrunk jeans were marketed towards the end of the decade as well. These were washed multiple times before being offered for sale so that when the consumer washed them, there was little shrinkage left and a good fit was maintained.
If EARONS wore polyester pants, what did he do for a living? I think he would have stood out in the day if he didn't wear jeans at his age, as a student.
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Edited by JaneDoe, 2 years ago
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By JaneDoe
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2 years ago
366 Posts
This is a very interesting thread.

And possibly fortuitous. These individuals need to be checked and cleared. Regarding the pant issue, it would be strange to imagine earons wearing that particular belt buckle with anything but jeans.
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By m13
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2 years ago
335 Posts
Belt buckle and jeans

Jane, I was in my early twenties when these crimes were occurring and you are right. It would have been very unusual for a young guy to wear anything but jeans or cords during their off work time. On page 427, Sudden Terror, A San Ramon teen saw a man with a knife on her patio wearing jeans and a nylon windbreaker. It does seem though, that he was frequently pantless at the time of the attacks.


M13- Yes, there are lots of interesting crimes during this time period. I'm still looking for crimes in the time period 7/15/78 to 10/1/78. Where was he?
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Edited by PortofLeith, 2 years ago
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By PortofLeith
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2 years ago
954 Posts
Re: Ceres Turlock Rapist not Caught
Posted By: PortofLeith

The rapist who tied up the women in Ceres and Turlock at long barrell gun point apparently was never caught. This blurb appeared with Claude Snelling's murder throughout 1975 in the Fresno Bee "Secret Witness".


Vminor- or how about a girlfriend home from college?
Do you have the blurb handy and can you post it? I don't remember seeing it.
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By dengas
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2 years ago
966 Posts

Quick Reply

[Drifter]

Suspicious activity in Santa Barbara, CA

Santa Barbara county has long been mentioned as a target of the EAR/ONS, namely the Goleta murders, as well as related bondage murders in the 1960s. We have speculated that the areas of Visalia and Lodi, CA are also areas of EAR/ONS activity. Visalia, Lodi, Sacramento, Orange County and Santa Barbara county have been areas of intense serial burglary/bondage attacks - and they all share something in common, they have been the targets of intense arson, bombing, poisoning, and general vandalism -- including threatening, suspicious letters. In this thread, we will list suspicious potential EAR/ONS activities in Santa Barbara, CA.



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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago

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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts


Re: Suspicious activity in Santa Barbara, CA

1.) April 12, 1969 - A bomb is planted at a university - UC Santa Barbara. One man injured.



pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/672373162.html?dids=672373162:672373162&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Apr+12,+1969&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Blast+Injures+Employe+at+UC+Santa+Barbara&pqatl=google
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in Santa Barbara, CA

2.) It is reported on Sep, 25, 1964 that a disastrous brush fire has destroyed 100 Santa Barbara homes, and killed at least one person.

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/470647212.html?dids=470647212:470647212&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Sep+25,+1964&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=FIGHT+TO+CHECK+FIRE+GOES+ON&pqatl=google
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in Santa Barbara, CA
Santa Barbara County definitely had arsons in the early to mid-1980's. I know that every time the weather changed to fire weather, we were instructed to check out vehicles parked at the side of the rural roads especially at night. I did witness an arson fire start which I did not realize was happening. Conditions and locations were such that it never got going-thankfully.
Also, the Painted Cave Fire of the late 1980's-early 1990's. Devastating. Altho I cannot recall if that was arson or an accidental start.
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By Cashius
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3 years ago
20 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in Santa Barbara, CA

I'm glad you mentioned that. I was going to post some links about those but I was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of all of them. You're right, that Painted Cave fire was hellacious. Was it arson? I think it definitely could have been and there was suspicion it was. There are a lot of wildfires in California but nothing like there was in the 80s and 90s. A serial arsonist(s) were definitely operating in the area and one even sent letters to the authorities in the 1990s.


I think I read your post about that arson. You said that you were driving by and saw a man leaning over a car, around the time the EAR/ONS was definitely active. Moments later, the man was gone and a brush fire was left behind. Very interesting. Could you tell us more about this? Do you remember the appearance of the man?

Also, when you worked as a detective in the area, were any suspicious letters reported?
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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[Drifter]

Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

1.) On October 11th, 1985, Alex Odeh, Chairman of the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee is killed by a bomb left at his doorstep. The crime occurs a few months prior to the murder of Janelle Lisa Cruz. The crime remains unsolved to this day. Some suspect Jewish Defense League responsibility.

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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago

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By Cimmerian10
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

2.) February, 1984. An Orange County area gun shop owner escapes death when a car bomb explodes.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/671354472.html?dids=671354472:671354472&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Feb+23,+1984&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Gun+Dealer+Survives+Auto+Bombing&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

December of 1985, around the same time of the Odeh bombing, some 7500 students are evacuated as a toxic Anaheim area warehouse fire rages.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/52150683.html?dids=52150683:52150683&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Dec+29,+1985&author=STEVE+EMMONS&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Tumult+and+Fury+of+1985+Had+a+Flip+Side+A+Toxic+Fire,+a+Bomb,+but+Also+the+Septuplets&patl=google

The warehouse fire is later investigated as an arson. A bomb-strapped car is found near the scene.

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/64473683.html?dids=64473683:64473683&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+27,+1985&author=MARCIDA+DODSON;+KRISTINA+LINDGREN&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=`Booby-Trapped'+Auto+Found+Next+to+Fricker+Fire+Site&pqatl=google

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/676180652.html?dids=676180652:676180652&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Jun+28,+1985&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Fricker+Fire+Site+Cleanup+Delays+Arson+Investigators&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

November 30th, 1985, around a month after the bombing of American Arab Anti-Discrimination official Alex Odeh is killed by a bomb, the offices of the AAADL are the targets of a suspicious fire.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/691901232.html?dids=691901232:691901232&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Nov+30,+1985&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Fire+Guts+Capital+Offices+of+Arab+Group&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

August 20th, 1986, three months after Janelle Lisa Cruz is murdered a pipe bomb is discovered at an Anaheim home.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/58005482.html?dids=58005482:58005482&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Aug+20,+1986&author=MARK+LANDSBAUM&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Apparent+Pipe+Bomb+Found+in+Anaheim+Yard&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

December 24th, 1984, an abortion clinic is firebombed in Orange County.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/675187472.html?dids=675187472:675187472&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Dec+24,+1984&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Foes+of+Abortion+Suspected+in+Santa+Ana+Firebombing&pqatl=google



Note that Ted Kaczynski attempted to firebomb ardent feminist and pro-choice advocate, Judi Bari, in the early 1990s, in Northern California. He called himself "The Lord's Avenger" in a number of letters he sent to her.
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/58595554.html?dids=58595554:58595554&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Apr+27,+1986&author=MARK+I.+PINSKY&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Armenians+to+Dedicate+First+Church+in+County&pqatl=google


Bombs are placed near Turkish folk dance centers. This of course marks the second attempted bombing of a Muslim establishment in the Orange County area, after the murder of Alex Odeh.



"Burned out" Armenian owned bakeries contained pipe bombs.
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/684374852.html?dids=684374852:684374852&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Oct+24,+1985&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=FBI+Studies+Bomb+Blast+Similarities+in+East,+Santa+Ana&pqatl=google

October 24th, 1985, FBI investigates similarities between two bombs sent to alleged "Nazi war criminals", and the bomb that killed Alex Odeh.

Working up quite a list, aren't we?
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/64387339.html?dids=64387339:64387339&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Feb+08,+1985&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=The+Region+Police+Station+Lot+Bombed&pqatl=google


February, 1985 - Fountain Valley police station bombed. Bombing occurred same month as a car-bombing of an Orange County gun shop owner.
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
1000 Posts
Movements of a neo-Luddite Visionary

JULY 15, 1985, A PIPE BOMB IS PLACED BEHIND A SANTA ANA COMPUTER STORE.



pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/57979614.html?dids=57979614:57979614&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+15,+1986&author=Nancy+Wride&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Santa+Ana+Pipe+Bomb+Discovered+Behind+Computer+Store&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

www.nytimes.com/1993/10/31/us/californians-relieved-as-winds-and-fire-subside.html

Officials also disclosed today that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was studying 30 threatening letters that had been sent to various addresses, including police and fire stations, since Sept. 1. A Los Angeles County Fire Department spokesman, Brian Humphrey, said the letters described a fascination with fire and threatened to set off huge blazes around Southern California.

KCBS-TV reported that a man had sent 15 letters threatening to set fires in revenge against "government people that screwed me bad."

"They burned me, now I'm going to burn them back," the letters reportedly read. "I fight fire with fire. Like my puns, chump? Sizzle. Sizzle. You think the Oakland fire was big? You should see my plans.""I will wait for a hot windy fall day in the brush," the letters reportedly continued. "Yeah, fire. I'm fascinated with fire." Anger From Governor



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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

Bomb Squad's Turf, Danger Keep Growing - June 10th, 1988

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/59915278.html?dids=59915278:59915278&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+10,+1988&author=JIM+CARLTON&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Bomb+Squad's+Turf,+Danger+Keep+Growing&pqatl=google
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

Officials today imposed extraordinary security at California airports and temporarily held air mail to and from the state after the Unabomber threatened to blow up an airliner leaving Los Angeles International Airport in the next six days.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/18599797.html?dids=18599797:18599797&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+29,+1995&author=William+Claiborne&pub=The+Washington+Post+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Unabomber+Threatens,+Then+Calls+It+a+Prank;+Letter+Said+Flight+Leaving+L.A.+Was+Target&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

Dozens of pets killed by poison in Costa Mesa area, 1986.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/58619715.html?dids=58619715:58619715&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+16,+1986&author=JUAN+ARANCIBIA&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Costa+Mesa+Neighbors,+Police+Gathering+Evidence+Poisonings+Suspected+in+Deaths+of+Dozen+Pets&pqatl=google
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Edited by Cimmerian10, 3 years ago
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

At least 18 horses die mysterious deaths near Orange County.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/66594309.html?dids=66594309:66594309&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Nov+08,+1989&author=JACK+CHEEVERS;+STEVEN+R.+CHURM&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Horses+Dying+of+Mysterious+Disease+Livestock:+At+least+18+animals+have+succumbed.+And+while+the+prime+suspect+is+botulism,+investigators+aren't+yet+sure.&pqatl=google
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/669447612.html?dids=669447612:669447612&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Oct+29,+1982&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=7+Injured+in+Fiery+Southland+Train+Accident&pqatl=google

Oct. 29, 1981, a train passing through Mission Viejo is sabotaged by fire. Seven people are injured.
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By Cimmerian10
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3 years ago
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

OCT. 10, 1995. AN AMTRAK TRAIN IS DERAILED IN ARIZONA, HEADED FOR LOS ANGELES. A MANIFESTO IS LEFT BEHIND, CLAIMED BY "SONS OF GESTAPO". 100 INJURED, 1 KILLED.


pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/21563787.html?dids=21563787:21563787&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Oct+10,+1995&author=TONY+PERRY;+LOUIS+SAHAGUN;+JESSE+KATZ&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=100+Hurt+as+Saboteurs+Derail+Amtrak+Train;+Manifesto+Left;+Violence:+One+man+is+killed+as+cars+bound+for+Los+Angeles+jump+damaged+tracks+in+isolated+Arizona+desert+location.+Anti-government+message+signed+by+'Sons+of+Gestapo'+is+found+at+the+scene.&pqatl=google
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By Cimmerian10
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area
news.google.com/newspapers?id=dxAuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ONUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5524,4443471&dq=orange+county+train+derail&hl=en
A freight train derails in Irvine in early September, 1993.
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By Cimmerian10
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area

pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/58600814.html?dids=58600814:58600814&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+04%2C+1986&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+%28pre-1997+Fulltext%29&desc=Irvine&pqatl=google

A number of strange arson fires begin to erupt in the Irvine, California area. One of these fires destroys a Carl's Jr restaurant in early May.

Although I cannot currently confirm which Carl's Jr. restaurant was targeted, Janelle Lisa Cruz, who was bludgeoned to death within a day or two of the fire, lived just 1200 meters from a Carl's Jr. restaurant.
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By Cimmerian10
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area
Wow, thank you so much for all your post! I am a little creeped out after reading them. I know my Dad is an arsonist and he lives in Anaheim, CA. He has a best buddy that I know he gets into trouble with and he lives in Fountain Valley. Oh dear God ...............................
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By sumrdays
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Re: Suspicious activity in the Orange County area
That's interesting, Sumrdays. I highly suspect that EAR/ONS set numerous fires. What do you guys thing about that Carl's Jr. fire? Someone should purchase that newspaper article and confirm whether or not it was the Carl's Jr. restaurant that resided some 1200 meters from Janelle Cruz's house. If so, it would be startling. Did EAR/ONS see Janelle Cruz at this restaurant? Did he set fire to it as a message, an "I'm in the neighborhood" thing?
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By Cimmerian10
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[Drifter]

Ramirez Connection

I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up, but it is something that stood out when I noticed it. After reading 'The Night Stalker' by Philip Carlo, there were a few points brought up that instantly raised question marks. As everyone knows, DNA has excluded Ramirez from being the ONS, but another interesting possibility, however remote, was raised by what was written in the book. In the EAR/ONS crimes, we know that EAR/ONS used the placing of dishes on the mens backs as a potential alerting system. This is a rather unique trait. Ramirez also did this, along with a few other things that, in conjunction with one another, seemed to be exclusive to EAR/ONS. In Carlo's book, he writes about how Ramirez was incarcerated sometime in the early to mid 80's, 1984 I believe, for car theft. Ramirez stated that during the few months he spent in jail, a cellmate of his got him turned on to Satanism.

Is it possible that during these few months, EAR/ONS had also been jailed on some petty charge unrelated to rape or murder, and that he and Ramirez shared a cell? Is it possible that Satanism was not the only thing Ramirez was turned on to in jail, but that he had a cellmate at one point who bragged about rapes and murders he himself had committed, giving lurid details such as placing dinnerware on peoples' backs? Is it possible that Ramirez was in fact, an EAR/ONS copycat who had firsthand knowledge from the killer himself?

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Re: Ramirez Connection

My knowledge of Ramirez is sketchy at best. Others here no doubt will be better able to answer your questions.

Just a quick note on something you said ...

"Ramirez stated that during the few months he spent in jail, a cellmate of his got him turned on to Satanism ... Satanism was not the only thing Ramirez was turned on to in jail, but that he had a cellmate ... who bragged about rapes and murders he himself had committed ..."

The person who turned him on to Satanism and who also bragged about rapes was not a cellmate. It was a cousin of Ramirez ... a Vietnam vet named Mike.

At least that's my understanding.






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Re: Ramirez Connection
A young Ramirez looking guy was hanging around one of the neighborhoods shortly after an attack, I know this for certain. Aside from that, I've heard the dishes thing is something picked up from Vietnam, used during raping of villagers. Do you suppose his cousin Miguel knew something about that & passed this wisdom along? Seems like this desire to rape and kill runs in the family...
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By Vminor
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Cellmate(s) of Ramirez

I certainly think that this would be well worth looking into. In those days, the authorities had prisoners' fingerprints, but not DNA. They currently have the DNA of EAR/ONS, but not fingerprints. The best I can say about you raising this issue, is that it is one that I would have raised myself, if I had known about it. Good thinking teknoslag.
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Re: Re: Ramirez Connection
Posted By: Vminor
A young Ramirez looking guy was hanging around one of the neighborhoods shortly after an attack, I know this for certain. Aside from that, I've heard the dishes thing is something picked up from Vietnam, used during raping of villagers. Do you suppose his cousin Miguel knew something about that & passed this wisdom along? Seems like this desire to rape and kill runs in the family...

"... I've heard the dishes thing is something picked up from Vietnam, used during raping of villagers".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vminor: What is your source of info for this?

Is anyone else here familiar with a connection between the dishes trick and Vietnam?




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Vietnam
Posted By: Drifter
Posted By: Vminor
A young Ramirez looking guy was hanging around one of the neighborhoods shortly after an attack, I know this for certain. Aside from that, I've heard the dishes thing is something picked up from Vietnam, used during raping of villagers. Do you suppose his cousin Miguel knew something about that & passed this wisdom along? Seems like this desire to rape and kill runs in the family...

"... I've heard the dishes thing is something picked up from Vietnam, used during raping of villagers".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vminor: What is your source of info for this?

Is anyone else here familiar with a connection between the dishes trick and Vietnam?




No one knows of any such trick from Vietnam that I'm aware of. Thousands of vets were interviewed and not one had any recollection of the dishes trick. V-minor can you share your source for that as well? Thanks.
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By guessting
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Re: Ramirez Connection
I heard this second hand from someone who heard it directly from a Vietnam veteran. I know both parties well & have no reason to doubt them. I wasn't alive in the 60's.
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By Vminor
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Ramirez connection
Ear crimes were committed after Vietnam. If he was 25 or older there is a good chance he was a Vietnam vet. He could have learned this trick himself first hand in Vietnam. No connection to Ramirez period.
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By Smitty2011
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Re: Ramirez Connection
I disagree. There is some connection to Ramirez (or someone that looks just like him). Without going into specifics here, I will say again, a very Ramirez-looking guy was in a neighborhood post-attack, poking around. Ramirez was about 16-18 during 1976-1979. The person was about that age.
The "dishes trick" I mentioned after having read about Miguel (Ramirez's cousin) serving multiple tours in Vietnam. Apparently he sharing his stories and gruesome war photos with Richard. I assume someone who purportedly did the things Miguel is said to have done in Vietnam would have been well versed in all of the related "tricks" employed by those miscreants.
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By Vminor
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Re: Ramirez Connection
Vminor, I am in total agreement with you. The only thing I will say that may be a diversion from the Ramirez/Cousin Miguel angle is this; personally, I don't 100% subscribe to the Ramirez/Miguel angle. All we have to go off of when it comes to that, is the word of Ramirez himself, that he was present when his cousin murdered his wife. What's the one thing that we do know for a fact about Ramirez? He's a pathological liar. That being said, I do however believe that his cousin did related to him stories of his time in Vietnam, and I do believe his cousin did rape and kill while over there. How much of Ramirez's story is embellished, we'll never know. But I do believe the part where his cousin Miguel related stories of rape and murder.

Now, knowing that, is it possible that Ramirez was jailed with someone else who also had experience in rape and murder, but whose experience was relegated to northern and southern California? It's extremely possible. That's the angle I'm trying to derive from. Ramirez was jailed with at least one person who, in his own words, turned him on to Satanism. (This comes directly from his own quotes) So who is to say he was not also jailed with someone who related to him stories of rape and murder, in suburban homes, with a peculiar M.O. that he later copied?

Whether or not that turns out to be the case, I do feel that it is strong and unique enough at the current time to warrant looking in to.
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I believe you
are telling me the truth. I was just relaying to you that many, many vets were interviewed and none told of the dishes. I don't know enough of Ranirez or his uncle to say one way or the other. Thanks
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Re: Ramirez Connection
I'll put it this way: I'm telling you the truth as I have heard it from Ramirez himself. Whether or not his word can be taken as 100% truth or not is a different story, and something you have to determine for yourself.
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Re: Ramirez Connection

guessting: The dishes trick (being carried out in Vietnam) is known and was told by Vets to LE. I've heard of at least 2 people who told LE about this in relation to this case.



Read about Ramirez. If you believe whats on the internet, he was bouncing around all over the place in his teens. He reportedly had been robbing houses in his early years according to a couple online sources. Sounds familiar. Again, I'm not saying he = EARONSGSK, but the more I think about it, I'm really starting to think he may know something about this. I'd be curious of familial matches on RR's DNA as well.
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Re: Ramirez Connection
Someone might take the time to read the book Faith of my Fathers. I think I recall that they used dishes on the backs of POW's in the Hanoi Hilton. If they rattled or dropped, the POW was tortured.
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By DrColumbo
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Re: Ramirez Connection
I'm not saying the dishes trick wasn't used by Vietnam vets, I'm just saying it's the first I had heard about it. For all I know, it could have been. I just think that when it comes to the EAR/ONS & Ramirez, there are too many similarities to dismiss as mere coincidence. In my own personal opinion, I feel there is something to the 1984-era timeline. Something too big of a coincidence to simply dismiss. It could be nothing, or it could be that one small tidbit that links everything together. In the end, in my opinion, it's at least worth looking in to.
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Re: Ramirez Connection
Have you contacted LE to discuss your beliefs with them? I am only speaking about what I am certain of with regards to interviews with vets. I have also NEVER read in any files about anyone having personal knowledge of the "dishes trick". G
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Re: Ramirez Connection
I haven't contacted LE, only because I am new to this and am not sure how to go about doing that or who to specifically get in to contact with.
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Re: Re: Ramirez Connection
Posted By: teknoslag
I haven't contacted LE, only because I am new to this and am not sure how to go about doing that or who to specifically get in to contact with.
If you need any help I would be happy to help you. I can provide you info for any of the jurisdictions you might choose to send info to. Thanks. G
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Re: Re: Re: Ramirez Connection
Posted By: guessting
Posted By: teknoslag
I haven't contacted LE, only because I am new to this and am not sure how to go about doing that or who to specifically get in to contact with.
If you need any help I would be happy to help you. I can provide you info for any of the jurisdictions you might choose to send info to. Thanks. G

One of the more interesting threads of late, teknoslag, thanks for posting!

Dishes trick relative to Vietnam is one issue. The Ramirez cellmate issue is a second, and separate issue.

teknoslag, if I were you, I'd pursue guessting's suggestion, via series of PMs between the two of you.

Nothing need be posted publicly, though you might post an occasional note on any progress or brick walls.
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Re: Re: Ramirez Connection
Posted By: Vminor

guessting: The dishes trick (being carried out in Vietnam) is known and was told by Vets to LE. I've heard of at least 2 people who told LE about this in relation to this case.



Read about Ramirez. If you believe whats on the internet, he was bouncing around all over the place in his teens. He reportedly had been robbing houses in his early years according to a couple online sources. Sounds familiar. Again, I'm not saying he = EARONSGSK, but the more I think about it, I'm really starting to think he may know something about this. I'd be curious of familial matches on RR's DNA as well.

Vminor wrote:

guessting: The dishes trick (being carried out in Vietnam) is known and was told by Vets to LE. I've heard of at least 2 people who told LE about this in relation to this case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you realize what you are saying?

Your information here is quite significant if true.

My question now is ... is it consistent with info in Faith Of My Fathers (credit: Dr. Columbo).
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Re: Ramirez Connection
I know that the dishes trick was researched in every direction and nothing was ever found. I will be passing this info on in the morning. This could be a significant finding.
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[Drifter]

Telephone company worker

Guys I am throwing this out there. There was a suspect named in the book "Sudden Terror" that worked for a telephone company. He was cleared so I don't think it was that guy. But one of the reasons that ear/ons seems to know when people were home alone can be by listening in on phone conversations. With the old phone systems that was easy to do especially when the rain falls sometimes people can heard other people talking on the lines. With EAR/ONS if he worked for the telephone company then he would have had the ability to intercept calls. This would be a first step in attacking his victims.

If you look at how intelligence gathering is done part of it is done by intercepting communications. I think the ear/ons followed the same pattern. I believe he would listen to telephone conversations to find out what is going on and if a young female lived there then he would get the locations from the phone numbers, then physically stalk the victim to see if the victim met the criteria. Then attack. Another thing also. Telephone company workers climb poles also so this guy may be comfortable climbing.

I am just throwing this out there to see what everyone thinks.

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By Peterlee
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Very Possible
I'd be surprised if EAR turned out to be some construction guy or vagabond roofer. He was too well organized. And lots of govt agencies or utilities like phone and power companies gave preference to Vietnam Vets. Which is what I think he was.
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By f1guyus
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Re: Telephone company worker

Peterlee,

I have also considered this possibility when I read Sudden Terror. There was one EAR attack where the husban was leaving in the morning for a business trip I believe and EAR attacked right after he left. I remember thinking, how does this guy seem to know the occupant's plans? Simple surveillance would reveal their schedules of when people are home or not, but how does he know things that just can't be learned through a steak out? I think there were other instances of this happening too (as it has been over six months since I read ST). I guess he could have overheard couples talking about their plans too either during his prowling or just over hearing it in public and then following them, etc. As a telephone company worker, he could use it as a ruse to get into the house to check the telephone lines, etc or just scope the neighborhood. If he did work, whatever his job was, it had to enable him to surveil b/c I was under the impression that it would be very difficult for him to hold down a job with all the surveillance he was doing.
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By lawstudent1
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telephone company worker

Peterlee,


I have also wondered about a phone company connection, especially since most neighbors of victims had hang up calls in the weeks before the attack. The only place to get a reverse directory in those days was in a city directory at the library and the phone numbers would not necessarily be in street order. The other possibility is that he was in every home on the block, which would have really increased his odds of being caught. Another possibility is that he was a tecchie who liked to hack phone switches. I worked in data processing at a phone company in the 80's. One of our worst hacks occurred near Seattle when a switchman left a manual in a trash bin and a group of computer hackers acquired it. LE also sometimes used phone company vehicles for drug surveillance in a neighborhood, so I guess that is another possibility.

Lawstudent1- I also thought it would have been hard for him to be anything except a student until I read about Colonel Williams who Speakel has listed below. Williams commanded the largest air base in Canada, was an outstanding pilot and was still out stealing hundreds of pairs of panties and raping/murdering at night. He was active in civic affairs, seemed happily married, etc. One of his college friends still can't believe his friend is a rapist/murderer.

F1- I agree with you that he was a veteran. I don't even recall "Apocalypse Now" addressing the cutting off of ears in Vietnam. I do remember one certain Marine talking about it happening with Korean mercenaries near Da Nang. He actually sent my sister a polaroid picture. If the tattoo existed, then that nails his veteran's status for me. Who else had tattoos in those days?
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Edited by PortofLeith, 2 years ago
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By PortofLeith
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Military vs. University

I've been particularly torn on this issue (was the EAR a student in Sac, or was he stationed there?) for quite some time, though due to his pattern of absences from Sac (plus when the two Stockton attacks occurred, and when he left Sac), I've finally settled primarily on his having been a CSUS student from out of town.

He did indeed exhibit some military characteristics, in his posturing as well as his tactics, which suggests either someone who had previously been in the military (a very strong possibility), or someone who was particularly entranced by his high school's ROTC (or equivalent) program.

However, given his (semi-sophisticated) poem-writing, and his dialogue with victims having ranged so wildly in tone, this seems to contradict the notion—for me, at least—of him being hardcore military. Russell Williams, for instance, seemed to speak little to his (surviving) victims, and at one point blandly intoned, after covering a sleeping victim's head with a pillowcase, "I need to take some pictures of you." In the way he terrorized his victims and interacted with them, the EAR evidenced a personality far less contained than your typical military operative.

But I also am inclined to believe he was not a telephone repairman, construction worker, roofer, or door-to-door salesman, unless he was an underachieving Robert Dupea sort.

Since he was in the homes of many of his victims prior to striking, I think it's likely that he gathered a good deal of intel simply from the items that populated each home (calendars, appointment books, answering machines, etc).
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By SpeakelOfEngrish
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Gathering Intel
Speakel,
That is precisely one of the most chilling aspects of this case- the fact that he had been in the victim's homes prior to the attacks. But could he possibly have been in every home on any given block? That's an even more frightening thought. I think he may have started in Sac with some Mather connection and could have been a student or defense contractor employee. The options are endless. If he had the tattoo, then he was almost certainly military at some point. Has anyone read the Zodiac files on the FBI The Vault webpage? There was one POI who had a tattoo on his left forearm. He killed himself, his wife and child.
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By PortofLeith
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Otis and another company printed reverse directories iirc

this is something I've posted before)...back in the day, late 80s to ~1990 my dad wanted to invite everyone in our neighborhood to a block party. he had my sister and me make out invitations through a reverse directory. There were several sections to the directory*, one of which was sequential-by-address. The address was followed by phone# and name. iirc household members were also listed

some addresses were missing from the directory. we thought due to the # being unlisted. Those invitations we hand delievered.

Dad worked at the University, there were 2 different company's Cross Directories there; we had to work in the library as the directories were reference books. I'm assuming public libraries had the same.



* another section was sequential by phone#. If EAR had your # he could have used it to find your name. [before going into your home to pilfer through your purse or look for annotation on your phone itself.]
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By Breccia
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before Phone Losers of America et.al.

the relative of a kid friend of mine (late 80s) worked for PacificBell. So, long story short, the kid had a 'lineman's phone' (iirc that's what it was called.) We could use the outside phone box and tap into phone lines to make outside calls (when our parents wouldn't let us use the phone or just to goof around.) We could also call a Bell # and it would read back the # from which we were calling (or sequentially by tone) --I guess you could also do this if you were in someone's house, using their phone. We did it outside an apartment bldg near where he lived.

we were like 10, 12 years old, no one caught us so we escaped doing hard time. the next Christmas my parent's gave me a chemistry set.... Smile
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By Breccia
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Re: Telephone company worker
Phone phreaking. Look it up.
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By waterfrogger
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tats
other than the military tatoos were common in the Merchant Marine...ship going work (offshore crew boats etc) and of course the prison population.
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By Breccia
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Phone Freakin'
I've been told it's where the seed money for Apple computers came from.
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By f1guyus
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this was before phreaking-for-internet use, waterfrogger

as were the known EAR-ONS crimes. much before phreaking for internet-phone connection use.
That's the only reason I mention it. if bored kids could do it, it would have been available to EAR too.
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Edited by Breccia, 2 years ago
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By Breccia
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Plug into outside phone jack
Don't know if they had them back then, but in the 90's phone companies installed access to the outside box. Think the reason being so they could plug in a phone outside (any phone would work) to see if phone probs were happening at the point of entry or inside the walls somewhere. It was a way for the phone co. to stick the customer with repair costs if the prob. was in the house. Could be EAR just plugged in to the house while hiding in the bushes on one of his pre-attack prowls.
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By ladyofthelake
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Not Sure But
I don't think they had OS jacks back in the day. What the phone repair men had was a phone that attached to your circuit with alligator clips or something similar.
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By f1guyus
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tapping lines

the phone my friend swiped from his uncle either had alligator clips or a male adapter(s). It must have been clips as they clipped to certain colored wires...but I may be wrong.

the lines running into the 'phone' had yellow and red insulated wires (again iirc.) the 'phone' itself was a single piece with the rotary dial on the bottom.

at the apartment bldg where we tapped in, there were lots of separate wire units...we just called out +received the # (we were calling from) for the heck of it. This was probably done for all sorts of bad reasons by people who weren't just goofing around.
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Edited by Breccia, 2 years ago
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By Breccia
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Re: Telephone company worker
I mention phreaking because if he is making these calls, he could be hacking into the phone lines to do those calls and make the calls for free. If he is a prolific prank caller and slips about what he known about the victims, it could be an angle. There were many phreaking pranksters out in about and especially in the 70's. It is just a thought if the telephone company worker runs aground. If he was a phreak, it is very likely that he currently works in the tech field and probably very smart too.
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By waterfrogger
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2 years ago
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1972 Reverse Directory Goleta and Phone Hackers

Sophisticated phone hackers in the 1980's were not out tapping lines. They were attacking the switches where they could program free long distance calling on a large scale or bring down a switch, if that is what they thought was fun. Digital switches were in their infancy then and most switches that recorded calls relied on technicians to physically change the reel tape when it filled with calls. In some cases the reel tape was put on another drive and transmitted to phone company data centers; in other cases the switchman had to physically ship the tapes to the data center for processing. If you could impact the right switch, the phone company could lose millions in revenue. If the phone company received a subpoena to track a call, a programmer had to look at the tape for originating and terminating numbers from the physical tape. Many switches didn't even record local calls, since they weren't part of the revenue stream.



Reverse directories were accesible at most libraries, but I can't envision EAR spending hours in a reading room when he could be out prowling. Maybe he stole them or maybe he really was in every house on the block.



Here is a page from a 1972 Goleta City Directory that shows how reverse directories worked. Once you had the name, another section gave you their professions. The number of people who I have found in this directory living on the streets around the Goleta crime scenes and listed as working for Raytheon or the Air Force is interesting.. . and we can't forget Burroughs either.





i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/portofleith-2008/goletadirectory.jpg
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By PortofLeith
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2 years ago
954 Posts
Re: Telephone company worker
I knew you would dig up the intel
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By waterfrogger
Member
2 years ago
123 Posts
Re: Telephone company worker
Does anyone know if that Telephone employee that was cleared in "Sudden Terror" was ever checked out again. I got a feeling EAR/ONS is in "Sudden Terror" as a suspect but got overlooked. Many years ago there was a book on the search for the Green River Killer. In that book the Green River Killer was there as a suspect (the guy who spoke to the prostitute's friend at the 7-11 store). We did not know it while reading the book until he was caught.
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By Peterlee
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2 years ago
319 Posts

Quick Reply

[Drifter]

The accuracy of McGowen's VR description

The night that McGowen encountered the VR was the only time that someone got a decent description of him. I've often wondered how good of a look McGowen got of this "young man". It was very dark in that particular neighborhood, McGowen approaches the suspect and within seconds the suspect shoots at McGowen, hitting the officer's flashlight and causing fragments of the flashlight to injure McGowens eye. A chase ensues in which the VR suspect gets away. I can imagine the VR turned away, squinted, held his hands toward his face while McGowen's flashlight was shining in his face. McGowen described the VR at 5'10" 200lbs (later changed to 180lbs).

How good of a look did an injured McGowen get at a suspect that was apprehensive from the get go?

5'10" @ 180lbs isn't heavy at all, it's actually fairly lean, with muscle it would be a lean swimmer/runner type build

Beth stated the VR's fingers were "chubby", I'm wondering if he wore gloves which would give an inaccurate description of his hands.

this is George St. Pierre, he's 5'11" 175lbs (190lbs at fight night)

as you can see even with muscles 5'11" 180lbs would be a lean build, not a pudgy build.



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By TheBadge
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2 years ago
99 Posts



Beth wasn't the first girl the VR touched
According to the VPD, it's my understanding that the VR had a "run-in" with another girl proir to Beth. If true that would somewhat discredit the Visalia newspaper when they said that as soon as he touched the Snelling girl he would become more dangerous.
My point to this thread isn't whether the VR and EAR are one in the same. The point of this thread is that McGowen's description of the VR is somewhat inconsistent.5'10" @ 200lbs ISN'T CHUBBY OR FAT. 5'5" @ 200lbs is chubby...borderline fat!
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By The Badge
Member
1 year ago
11 Posts
Re: Re: No Ransackings between Jan 1976 and June 1976
Posted By: Repoman
Posted By: Archangel76

In the first few EAR rapes, there was ransacking.

Port,

The EAR played this sick game that he was a burglar driven to desperation. He followed a script which included pretending to be "looking" for money and valuables. That is where his ransacking of the house came in.

What I am pointing out and is fundamentally different from the Ransacker is the EAR's burglaries that did not involve rapes. Those residences (to my knowledge) were not ransacked (not like the Visalia Ransackings). So we know that there were EAR-related burglaries leading up to the June 18, 1976 rape. None of those involved ransacking to any great extent.

If the Visalia Ransacker, in fact, moved to Sacramento, one would have expected to see a continuation of the ransackings until he raped. There was a 6 month period between his last known ransacking and the first rape. And let's not even broach the subject of the October 1975 rape in Sacramento. The VR was getting pyscho-sexual enjoyment from ransacking homes. There would be no motivation for him to break into a home and not ransack it anymore for the EAR to enter a home with a victim present and not rape.

That is what is missing in Sacramento.

Ransacking is common to burglary in general. Richard Ramirez ransacked. Jon Simonis Ransacked. The EAR pre-burglaries -- no ransacking.
Maybe it was a delibrate attempt to hide. If the VR equals EAR which you state on your website is very likely then maybe he changed his mo knowing that LE was on the look out for him.
It certainly makes sense if consider that VPD was looking for him for murder and the attempted murder of an officer. It would have been in his best interests to throw off LE...............
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By DanCartell
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1 year ago
683 Posts
Re: M.O/Signature
Posted By: Archangel76
Z Force,

He slightly changed his M.O. between EAR and ONS. His signature never changed which is how Det. Crompton recognized (without DNA) that the EAR was in Southern CA. Sgt. Baker connected most of the ONS crimes without DNA. That is because the EAR/ONS' M.O./Signature was distinctive.

That is what is missing in Visalia. The key elements of the EAR/ONS' M.O./Signature is non-existent in Visalia. That is, of course, because the Ransacker was evolving and had not reached the point where rape became part of his fantasy. Now the criminal profile of the Ransacker predicted that he would evolve into a rapist. (Which, obviously, is consistent with the EAR). But one would expect to see more Ransacking burglaries. Not the EAR's "bizarre burglaries". The Ransacker was gaining some type of sexual enjoyment from ransacking homes. Theoretically, he would not drop that aspect until he actually started raping. So there was a 6 month period of no ransackings (wherever the VR was). In Sacramento, the pre-EAR was burglarizing homes leading up to June 18 -- but no ransackings...doesn't add up.

It does add up if you look at it this way : He didnt ransack in the lead up to June 76 because he did not want to make cops in Visalia aware that he was now operational in Sacramento. If he had done so there would have been a massive manhunt in Sacramento and he wouldnt have operated with the ease that he operated with in the early rapes in Sacramento........ .

I personally believe that given EARs intelligence he would certainly drop the ransacking if it meant he generated less heat and threw off the cops, as he was evolving and his new source of sexual enjoyment would eventually end up consisting of the rapes . I would also also theorise that in the lead up to June 76 he was prepping himself for the rapes , it could be that ransacking no longer stimulated and turned him on like it used to. In Visalia he had graduated to trying to kidnap a teenage girl therefore I suggest that by the time VR tried to kidnap Beth he had gone beyond being turned on by ransacking and he now wanted to rape a female.........
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By DanCartell
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1 year ago
683 Posts
Re: Ransacking and Reading
Posted By: PortofLeith

Arch,

I don't really consider folding women's undeerwear and placing it on a bed, taking an earring and eating food in the kitchen as "ransacking" in the Viking sense. EAR and VR both liked to open cupboard doors and drawers in the kitchen. It must have been a terrifying twist for the rape victims to have to listen to that for an hour or two between attacks.

Is it really common for rapists to have to masturbate in a very specific way to be aroused prior to raping? Both VR and EAR brought their own lotion bottles to crime scenes. i think EAR was learning how to move from peeping masturbation to rape in the EAR crimes and then from terrorizing to murder in the ONS crimes.

F1Guyus,

I have read everything available to the public on the East Area Rapist ONS and I think he did have a very specific type in the murders- in the rapes not so much. The rape victims varied in looks, ethnicity, socio-econmic backgrounds and age. The National Institute of Victimology published a study completed by two social scientists that detailed these components of the East Area Rapist attacks in 1981. I haven't been able to locate a copy, but it would be an interesting read.


Good points regarding the lotion and masturbation method ........................having considered your question it does look like its the same individual .

I will throw this question at everyone here:
What are the odds of two separate offenders operating at almost the same time both having an affinity for breaking into peoples homes ,and using lotion to masturbate in a specific way?
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By DanCartell
Member
1 year ago
683 Posts
Re: Re: Ransacking and Reading
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: PortofLeith

Arch,

I don't really consider folding women's undeerwear and placing it on a bed, taking an earring and eating food in the kitchen as "ransacking" in the Viking sense. EAR and VR both liked to open cupboard doors and drawers in the kitchen. It must have been a terrifying twist for the rape victims to have to listen to that for an hour or two between attacks.

Is it really common for rapists to have to masturbate in a very specific way to be aroused prior to raping? Both VR and EAR brought their own lotion bottles to crime scenes. i think EAR was learning how to move from peeping masturbation to rape in the EAR crimes and then from terrorizing to murder in the ONS crimes.

F1Guyus,

I have read everything available to the public on the East Area Rapist ONS and I think he did have a very specific type in the murders- in the rapes not so much. The rape victims varied in looks, ethnicity, socio-econmic backgrounds and age. The National Institute of Victimology published a study completed by two social scientists that detailed these components of the East Area Rapist attacks in 1981. I haven't been able to locate a copy, but it would be an interesting read.


Good points regarding the lotion and masturbation method ........................having considered your question it does look like its the same individual .

I will throw this question at everyone here:
What are the odds of two separate offenders operating at almost the same time both having an affinity for breaking into peoples homes ,and using lotion to masturbate in a specific way?
Dan, I like where you're going in posing this question....but I would have went with the stealing of family photos. I've got to believe that as being more of a lynchpin. You'll find a lot of rapists have similar sexual fetish routines....but I've got to believe the stealing of photos as being a more isolated signature of an offender.
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By ZForce
Member
1 year ago
503 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Ransacking and Reading
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: PortofLeith

Arch,

I don't really consider folding women's undeerwear and placing it on a bed, taking an earring and eating food in the kitchen as "ransacking" in the Viking sense. EAR and VR both liked to open cupboard doors and drawers in the kitchen. It must have been a terrifying twist for the rape victims to have to listen to that for an hour or two between attacks.

Is it really common for rapists to have to masturbate in a very specific way to be aroused prior to raping? Both VR and EAR brought their own lotion bottles to crime scenes. i think EAR was learning how to move from peeping masturbation to rape in the EAR crimes and then from terrorizing to murder in the ONS crimes.

F1Guyus,

I have read everything available to the public on the East Area Rapist ONS and I think he did have a very specific type in the murders- in the rapes not so much. The rape victims varied in looks, ethnicity, socio-econmic backgrounds and age. The National Institute of Victimology published a study completed by two social scientists that detailed these components of the East Area Rapist attacks in 1981. I haven't been able to locate a copy, but it would be an interesting read.


Good points regarding the lotion and masturbation method ........................having considered your question it does look like its the same individual .

I will throw this question at everyone here:
What are the odds of two separate offenders operating at almost the same time both having an affinity for breaking into peoples homes ,and using lotion to masturbate in a specific way?
Dan, I like where you're going in posing this question....but I would have went with the stealing of family photos. I've got to believe that as being more of a lynchpin. You'll find a lot of rapists have similar sexual fetish routines....but I've got to believe the stealing of photos as being a more isolated signature of an offender.
Yeah I agree, you could add to that the stealing of family photos , I have never heard of any offenders other than these who did this.......................and there are other aspects such as both offenders dragging some victims out of the house ,the thing that gets me about this is that rapists who break into victims houses to rape them typically rape them inside the house and those who attack victims outside rape them outside , yet here we have VR and EAR who enter residences and on some occasions dragged victims outside , if you also add the fact that both offenders liked to attack in neighborhoods with those canals running through them..........................what are the odds of them being separate individuals?

I cant escape the fact that the more stuff you add the more this looks like both offenders are the same person who just happened to operate in two separate areas as opposed to them being separate offenders in separate areas..................
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By DanCartell
Member
1 year ago
683 Posts
Archangel
I've gone back through and re-read your posts in this thread....it seems that you often disagree with people's VR theories because you automatically think they are trying to connect VR to EAR. This thread wasn't meant for that, this thread specifically questioned the accuracy of McGowen's VR decription. If McGowen was slightly off about anything in his description (which he was) it would throw a lot of people off of the suspect's trail. For instance people would have been on the lookout for a chubby "cabbage-patch" looking kid that had the ability to launch over fences AND the cardio to outrun police. IF McGowen was inaccurate with his description then the VR would literally have nothing to worry about while going on with his daily routine.
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By The Badge
Member
1 year ago
11 Posts
Re: Archangel
Posted By: The Badge
I've gone back through and re-read your posts in this thread....it seems that you often disagree with people's VR theories because you automatically think they are trying to connect VR to EAR. This thread wasn't meant for that, this thread specifically questioned the accuracy of McGowen's VR decription. If McGowen was slightly off about anything in his description (which he was) it would throw a lot of people off of the suspect's trail. For instance people would have been on the lookout for a chubby "cabbage-patch" looking kid that had the ability to launch over fences AND the cardio to outrun police. IF McGowen was inaccurate with his description then the VR would literally have nothing to worry about while going on with his daily routine.

TB,

Being that I continue to say that the Visalia Ransacker case is a 50/50 proposition, anything that I post is in regards to that belief. There is no forensic evidence linking the VR case to the EAR/ONS. No fingerprints. No DNA. No M.O./Signature (as there were no rapes in Visalia). As such, it would be a huge mistake to assume that the cases are linked and predicate case theories upon the assumption that the cases are linked. If they are not linked (and a link is assumed), it will misdirect time, resources and effort. It would be a lesser mistake to assume that they are not linked. I say "lesser" because in assuming that they are not linked, both cases will be investigated on their own merits without any cross-contamination of case theories and evidence. There is already an example of this where it was reported that VR suspects are being eliminated based on DNA from the EAR/ONS case. If the cases are not linked then the actual VR may well be "eliminated" as a suspect and the case will never be solved.

If either case is solved (and it turns out that they are linked) then both cases are solved. The solving of the EAR/ONS case does not lie in Visalia. Visalia is a dead-end. McGowen was unable to close that case in the 1970's. It is extremely unlikely that anyone is going to solve that case now. The forensic evidence is just not there. Even if the EAR/ONS case is solved, there will still be no way to forensically link the EAR/ONS to the Visalia Ransacker case unless they are able to match fingerprints and at this stage, I have no confidence in that happening.
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Edited by Archangel76, 1 year ago
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2156 Posts
50/50 Proposition?

Archangel quote regarding the VR/EAR connection:
"The Sacramento County Sheriff's Department denied such a link and lambasted the Visalia PD for going public with such a link. 31 years later, the chances are high that the cases are, in fact, linked."
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Edited by Repoman, 1 year ago
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Re: 50/50 Proposition?
Posted By: Repoman

Archangel quote regarding the VR/EAR connection:
"The Sacramento County Sheriff's Department denied such a link and lambasted the Visalia PD for going public with such a link. 31 years later, the chances are high that the cases are, in fact, linked."

Try to allow your thinking to evolve. I have. There has been much more information that has come in. There have also been additional VR suspect's identified WHO ARE NOT THE EAR/ONS. It might be that they have identified the VR and exclude him because he is not also the EAR/ONS. There is zero forensic evidence linking the cases. No fingerprints. No DNA. No M.O./Signature.

At this point, the cases should be considered separate.

Apparently, you failed to read the article that Drifter posted:

www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1922&issue_id=102009
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Edited by Archangel76, 1 year ago
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2156 Posts
For the love of god Archangel!!
THIS THREAD WASN'T SUGGESTING THE VR IS THE EAR!!! ARCHANGEL, WHERE IN MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD DID I SAY VR IS EAR? QUESTIONING THE ACCURACY OF MCGOWEN'S VR DESCRIPTTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EAR!
I POST ON THIS BOARD ABOUT VR BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE I COULD FIND TO TALK ABOUT THE VR CASE.
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By TheBadge
Member
1 year ago
99 Posts
Quite A Contradiction
Posted By: Archangel76
Posted By: Repoman

Archangel quote regarding the VR/EAR connection:
"The Sacramento County Sheriff's Department denied such a link and lambasted the Visalia PD for going public with such a link. 31 years later, the chances are high that the cases are, in fact, linked."

Try to allow your thinking to evolve. I have. There has been much more information that has come in. There have also been additional VR suspect's identified WHO ARE NOT THE EAR/ONS. It might be that they have identified the VR and exclude him because he is not also the EAR/ONS. There is zero forensic evidence linking the cases. No fingerprints. No DNA. No M.O./Signature.

At this point, the cases should be considered separate.

Apparently, you failed to read the article that Drifter posted:

www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1922&issue_id=102009

Your website broadcasts views that you no longer hold 24/7 yet you criticize others that hold this view. If you believe holding this view is destructive to the case then why do you keep stating it on your website? Will the real Archangel please stand up?
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Edited by Repoman, 1 year ago
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Re: For the love of god Archangel!!
Posted By: TheBadge
THIS THREAD WASN'T SUGGESTING THE VR IS THE EAR!!! ARCHANGEL, WHERE IN MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD DID I SAY VR IS EAR? QUESTIONING THE ACCURACY OF MCGOWEN'S VR DESCRIPTTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EAR!
I POST ON THIS BOARD ABOUT VR BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE I COULD FIND TO TALK ABOUT THE VR CASE.

TB,

No point in replying to your posts except to say that either someone has hijacked your user name or you continue to fail to comprehend what 50/50 means.
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Edited by Archangel76, 1 year ago
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2156 Posts
Failure to Evolve

RM,

At some point it may dawn on you that no one, except you, cares about that website. It has been up for 8 years. All relevant information that anyone has about the case has already been processed and forwarded to law enforcement. You are the only one on a planet of 7 billion people who are obsessing about a defunct website.

There have been no new useful leads coming through that website for well over two years. Any new tips are going straight through to the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department (which is how it should be). Being that they currently believe that the Visalia Ransacker case is linked to the EAR/ONS (as well as the Maggiore case) it would not serve their purpose to alter the content of the website.

My own reasons for not updating the website have been stated before and you have failed to factor that into your circular reasoning. There has been no new publicity brought to the case. I have ZERO confidence that after 36 years there is anyone on this planet of 7 billion people who have any information which will lead to a resolution in this case who have not already come forward.

So, I will update the website at my leisure which, at this point, I suspect that the case will be solved (by other means) long before I get around to it.

Good Day, sir.
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Edited by Archangel76, 1 year ago
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By Archangel76
Member
1 year ago
2156 Posts
Interesting Very Interesting

You just updated your website recently. Why did you do that if it is not relevant? You have stated in the past that you were going to redo your website and that was the reason you were not bothering to fix old outdated information. You have also stated many times in the recent past that the website has brought in many leads that you forward to LE. Now you are saying that I am the only person on the planet that looks at the website? Strange. Very strange. Then you criticize me for not "evolving" at the same time it is okay for SCSD to hold the view that VR=EAR. None of this makes any sense what so ever. Let me ask you this. Do you need permission from LE to make a change to your website? I am afraid I can't hear what you are saying because I am too busy listening to what you are doing. In short: Actions speak louder than words. I can only conclude that you really believe that the EAR=VR as your website indicates.
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Edited by Repoman, 1 year ago
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By Repoman
Member
1 year ago
1487 Posts
Re: Failure to Evolve
Posted By: Archangel76

RM,

At some point it may dawn on you that no one, except you, cares about that website. It has been up for 8 years. All relevant information that anyone has about the case has already been processed and forwarded to law enforcement. You are the only one on a planet of 7 billion people who are obsessing about a defunct website.

There have been no new useful leads coming through that website for well over two years. Any new tips are going straight through to the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department (which is how it should be). Being that they currently believe that the Visalia Ransacker case is linked to the EAR/ONS (as well as the Maggiore case) it would not serve their purpose to alter the content of the website.

My own reasons for not updating the website have been stated before and you have failed to factor that into your circular reasoning. There has been no new publicity brought to the case. I have ZERO confidence that after 36 years there is anyone on this planet of 7 billion people who have any information which will lead to a resolution in this case who have not already come forward.

So, I will update the website at my leisure which, at this point, I suspect that the case will be solved (by other means) long before I get around to it.

Good Day, sir.
If LE is correct in believing the link between VR and EAR then maybe the answer lies in investigators appealing for help via the Visalia media. If LE were to ask the public for help in identifying a male who lived in Visalia in 1975 and then moved to East Sacramento in 1976...I'm almost positive a new pool of tentative suspects would be developed.
We all must keep in mind the general public knows nothing of VR or EAR, particularly in Visalia, and if LE is going to get knew leads they have to be able to ask the public for specific information via the media.
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By ZForce
Member
1 year ago
503 Posts
Re: Re: Failure to Evolve
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: Archangel76

RM,

At some point it may dawn on you that no one, except you, cares about that website. It has been up for 8 years. All relevant information that anyone has about the case has already been processed and forwarded to law enforcement. You are the only one on a planet of 7 billion people who are obsessing about a defunct website.

There have been no new useful leads coming through that website for well over two years. Any new tips are going straight through to the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department (which is how it should be). Being that they currently believe that the Visalia Ransacker case is linked to the EAR/ONS (as well as the Maggiore case) it would not serve their purpose to alter the content of the website.

My own reasons for not updating the website have been stated before and you have failed to factor that into your circular reasoning. There has been no new publicity brought to the case. I have ZERO confidence that after 36 years there is anyone on this planet of 7 billion people who have any information which will lead to a resolution in this case who have not already come forward.

So, I will update the website at my leisure which, at this point, I suspect that the case will be solved (by other means) long before I get around to it.

Good Day, sir.
If LE is correct in believing the link between VR and EAR then maybe the answer lies in investigators appealing for help via the Visalia media. If LE were to ask the public for help in identifying a male who lived in Visalia in 1975 and then moved to East Sacramento in 1976...I'm almost positive a new pool of tentative suspects would be developed.
We all must keep in mind the general public knows nothing of VR or EAR, particularly in Visalia, and if LE is going to get knew leads they have to be able to ask the public for specific information via the media.
Good points there,
Could it be possible that the offender had links to both Visalia and Sacramento and then alternated between living in either of the two cities for periods of time as opposed to moving to Sacramento from Visalia (and vice versa)?
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By DanCartell
Member
1 year ago
683 Posts
To Dan regarding living in both locations
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: Archangel76

RM,

At some point it may dawn on you that no one, except you, cares about that website. It has been up for 8 years. All relevant information that anyone has about the case has already been processed and forwarded to law enforcement. You are the only one on a planet of 7 billion people who are obsessing about a defunct website.

There have been no new useful leads coming through that website for well over two years. Any new tips are going straight through to the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department (which is how it should be). Being that they currently believe that the Visalia Ransacker case is linked to the EAR/ONS (as well as the Maggiore case) it would not serve their purpose to alter the content of the website.

My own reasons for not updating the website have been stated before and you have failed to factor that into your circular reasoning. There has been no new publicity brought to the case. I have ZERO confidence that after 36 years there is anyone on this planet of 7 billion people who have any information which will lead to a resolution in this case who have not already come forward.

So, I will update the website at my leisure which, at this point, I suspect that the case will be solved (by other means) long before I get around to it.

Good Day, sir.
If LE is correct in believing the link between VR and EAR then maybe the answer lies in investigators appealing for help via the Visalia media. If LE were to ask the public for help in identifying a male who lived in Visalia in 1975 and then moved to East Sacramento in 1976...I'm almost positive a new pool of tentative suspects would be developed.
We all must keep in mind the general public knows nothing of VR or EAR, particularly in Visalia, and if LE is going to get knew leads they have to be able to ask the public for specific information via the media.
Good points there,
Could it be possible that the offender had links to both Visalia and Sacramento and then alternated between living in either of the two cities for periods of time as opposed to moving to Sacramento from Visalia (and vice versa)?

It seems like the VR was very immature in his behaviour. If he was a teen, I wonder if a divorce in his family could account for his spending time in both Visalia and Sacramento. It seems obvious that while he was offending in Visalia he was living there, but perhaps he did some early prowlings/peepings in Sacramento while visiting with the non-custodial parent.

Then, like so many teens, when they reach a certain age where they want to run wild, they also want to live with the most lenient parent.

Another scenario could be that perhaps mom/dad has a new live-in "significant other" that the teen doesn't get along with and goes to live with the other parent. This could partially account for "mommy" issue and anger issues.

I am remembering a family that lived in my neighborhood -- the "depressed" yet beautiful young mother married a man who adored her and took on her two children as his own. Depressed mommy left him "and" the children and took up with another man leaving the step parent to raise the two young teens. The girl became a goth and the boy became a peeping tom before step dad lost his job, lost the house and they all moved. I don't know what became of the poor kids that the so called "mother" has unleashed onto society. I wonder if something like that could have happened to EAR/ONS..
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Edited by Sandia, 1 year ago
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By Sandia
Member
1 year ago
1382 Posts
Re: To Dan regarding living in both locations
Posted By: Sandia
Posted By: DanCartell
Posted By: ZForce
Posted By: Archangel76

RM,

At some point it may dawn on you that no one, except you, cares about that website. It has been up for 8 years. All relevant information that anyone has about the case has already been processed and forwarded to law enforcement. You are the only one on a planet of 7 billion people who are obsessing about a defunct website.

There have been no new useful leads coming through that website for well over two years. Any new tips are going straight through to the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department (which is how it should be). Being that they currently believe that the Visalia Ransacker case is linked to the EAR/ONS (as well as the Maggiore case) it would not serve their purpose to alter the content of the website.

My own reasons for not updating the website have been stated before and you have failed to factor that into your circular reasoning. There has been no new publicity brought to the case. I have ZERO confidence that after 36 years there is anyone on this planet of 7 billion people who have any information which will lead to a resolution in this case who have not already come forward.

So, I will update the website at my leisure which, at this point, I suspect that the case will be solved (by other means) long before I get around to it.

Good Day, sir.
If LE is correct in believing the link between VR and EAR then maybe the answer lies in investigators appealing for help via the Visalia media. If LE were to ask the public for help in identifying a male who lived in Visalia in 1975 and then moved to East Sacramento in 1976...I'm almost positive a new pool of tentative suspects would be developed.
We all must keep in mind the general public knows nothing of VR or EAR, particularly in Visalia, and if LE is going to get knew leads they have to be able to ask the public for specific information via the media.
Good points there,
Could it be possible that the offender had links to both Visalia and Sacramento and then alternated between living in either of the two cities for periods of time as opposed to moving to Sacramento from Visalia (and vice versa)?

It seems like the VR was very immature in his behaviour. If he was a teen, I wonder if a divorce in his family could account for his spending time in both Visalia and Sacramento. It seems obvious that while he was offending in Visalia he was living there, but perhaps he did some early prowlings/peepings in Sacramento while visiting with the non-custodial parent.

Then, like so many teens, when they reach a certain age where they want to run wild, they also want to live with the most lenient parent.

Another scenario could be that perhaps mom/dad has a new live-in "significant other" that the teen doesn't get along with and goes to live with the other parent. This could partially account for "mommy" issue and anger issues.

I am remembering a family that lived in my neighborhood -- the "depressed" yet beautiful young mother married a man who adored her and took on her two children as his own. Depressed mommy left him "and" the children and took up with another man leaving the step parent to raise the two young teens. The girl became a goth and the boy became a peeping tom before step dad lost his job, lost the house and they all moved. I don't know what became of the poor kids that the so called "mother" has unleashed onto society. I wonder if something like that could have happened to EAR/ONS..
Thats a really interesting story.........and I really like your divorce theory because I was also thinking along the same lines...!,
based on recent information- the time-frames between the suspect disappearing in Visalia and re-appearing in Sacramento between `73 and `76 are now too many for this guy to have simply moved from one to the other, I am now leaning towards him having some strong connections to both areas at the same time and your explanations make a lot of sense! Good thinking......
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By DanCartell
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1 year ago
683 Posts
Back to the top
1. McGowen changed his POI's like a hoe changes clothes
2. There is no evidence linking EAR to VR. The similarities between EAR & VR are common traits that ALL prowlers/sexual predators share
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Edited by TheBadge, 3 months ago
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By TheBadge
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3 months ago
99 Posts

[Drifter]

Whitmeyer says VR=EAR.....how?
1. EAR left DNA and no fingerprints. 2. VR left fingerprints and no DNA. I want them both to be the same guy but until there's actual evidence shouldn't we stop forcing the connection? Unless there's EAR prints I'm not aware of or unless there's VR DNA that we don't know of I don't see how Whitmeyer made the connection.

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Edited by TheBadge, 9 months ago

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By TheBadge
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9 months ago
99 Posts



The connection

McGowen and Shipley traveled to Sacramento to brief the EAR task force about the Ransacker. The Sac Sheriff's office didn't see a connection, even though Visalia was convinced there was. Sound familiar?(Crompton trying to get So Cal to see the Ear/ONS linkage)

Out of the blue, the LA Times ran an article on July 23, 1978 titled "Sacramento East Area Rapist May be Visalia Killer" implicating the ransacker in both crime sprees. I haven't been able to determine which agency prompted that article.

This article appeared in 2001, prior to Whitmeyer's involvement. Here are excerpts:

Woman says she has made peace with husband's unsolved murder

Author: Jason Schultz; Staff

Article Text:

New clues may lead police to `The Ransacker'

By Jason Schultz

Times-Delta

Police call him "The Ransacker."

They believe he broke into homes in Visalia, Sacramento and Orange County, rummaged through possessions and took food from refrigerators.

Nothing much was ever taken, but police believe the man had another motive: He was looking for rape victims.

They also believe that on Sept. 11, 1975, he killed Claude Snelling, a journalism professor at College of the Sequoias. . . . . . .

Visalia Police Lt. Joe Ventura, who was on the force at the time, said the case is still open, and in fact investigators are looking into a possible clue they received from a source in Orange County, where a string of similar break-ins occurred a few years after "The Ransacker" crimes stopped in Visalia.



I am on the fence about the connection, but lean towards it existing. Strange burglaries are indeed "strange burglaries". Clearly there are some LE who still believe there is a connection.


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Edited by PortofLeith, 9 months ago
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By PortofLeith
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9 months ago
950 Posts
PortofLeith Re: The connection
Posted By: PortofLeith

McGowen and Shipley traveled to Sacramento to brief the EAR task force about the Ransacker. The Sac Sheriff's office didn't see a connection, even though Visalia was convinced there was. Sound familiar?(Crompton trying to get So Cal to see the Ear/ONS linkage)

Out of the blue, the LA Times ran an article on July 23, 1978 titled "Sacramento East Area Rapist May be Visalia Killer" implicating the ransacker in both crime sprees. I haven't been able to determine which agency prompted that article.

This article appeared in 2001, prior to Whitmeyer's involvement. Here are excerpts:

Woman says she has made peace with husband's unsolved murder

Author: Jason Schultz; Staff

Article Text:

New clues may lead police to `The Ransacker'

By Jason Schultz

Times-Delta

Police call him "The Ransacker."

They believe he broke into homes in Visalia, Sacramento and Orange County, rummaged through possessions and took food from refrigerators.

Nothing much was ever taken, but police believe the man had another motive: He was looking for rape victims.

They also believe that on Sept. 11, 1975, he killed Claude Snelling, a journalism professor at College of the Sequoias. . . . . . .

Visalia Police Lt. Joe Ventura, who was on the force at the time, said the case is still open, and in fact investigators are looking into a possible clue they received from a source in Orange County, where a string of similar break-ins occurred a few years after "The Ransacker" crimes stopped in Visalia.



I am on the fence about the connection, but lean towards it existing. Strange burglaries are indeed "strange burglaries". Clearly there are some LE who still believe there is a connection.


A clue is different than ACTUAL EVIDENCE...MO would leave "clues", fingerprints or DNA is EVIDENCE. I'm aware of all the previous reports on VR being looked into as EAR/ONS but have they all been based on MO & Timing? That alone should raise suspicion but without EVIDENCE you're left with nothing but theory.
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By TheBadge
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9 months ago
99 Posts
Nothing but theory
And our Visalia LE certainly won't tell whether there is actual evidence (DNA/fingerprints) in the Snelling murder, but recently I spoke to a guy who was with the sheriff's department in 1975, and knew about the case, who said that there was a print. I know that there were prints taken from MANY of the ransacker's deeds, but whether there were cross-case fingerprints, or full fingerprints, or whatever...I don't know. I would love to have Salazar tell me, but when I asked him directly, no answer -- period. I do believe that our local LE are still working the case -- seriously working the case. Just MO and timing? I don't think so. Urit222 was told by Russ W. that fingerprints found at her home in the '80's matched the EAR/ONS. She tried to tell us that, but we on the board thought that she must have misunderstood. After talking to her, on several occassions, I believe that the VR/EAR/ONS had returned and was in Visalia for the five years prior to Janelle's murder.
And, to be sure, there are people in Visalia -- VERY RECENTLY -- who are being questioned about what they know. So, our LE are on it.
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By dengas
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9 months ago
959 Posts
Re: Nothing but theory
Posted By: dengas
And our Visalia LE certainly won't tell whether there is actual evidence (DNA/fingerprints) in the Snelling murder, but recently I spoke to a guy who was with the sheriff's department in 1975, and knew about the case, who said that there was a print. I know that there were prints taken from MANY of the ransacker's deeds, but whether there were cross-case fingerprints, or full fingerprints, or whatever...I don't know. I would love to have Salazar tell me, but when I asked him directly, no answer -- period. I do believe that our local LE are still working the case -- seriously working the case. Just MO and timing? I don't think so. Urit222 was told by Russ W. that fingerprints found at her home in the '80's matched the EAR/ONS. She tried to tell us that, but we on the board thought that she must have misunderstood. After talking to her, on several occassions, I believe that the VR/EAR/ONS had returned and was in Visalia for the five years prior to Janelle's murder.
And, to be sure, there are people in Visalia -- VERY RECENTLY -- who are being questioned about what they know. So, our LE are on it.
Yeah but LE would have to have VR's DNA in order to know if he's EAR. According to everything on the board LE doesn't have VR's DNA, they have his prints.
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By TheBadge
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9 months ago
99 Posts
VR DNA
And I don't know whether Visalia has VR's DNA or not. If they did, and it matched the EAR/ONS, wouldn't they make that information public? How long did they know about the ONS/EAR match before it became known? I'm serious. Wouldn't it be public knowledge if there were a match? So, round and round with no answers because Visalia LE isn't sharing, and Russ W. may have spoken out of turn, or he was making it up. If he was making the VR/EAR/ONS connection up, then one would have to ask why? Why did he tell Urit222 that prints from her house matched EAR/ONS? She didn't even know about EAR/ONS. Badge, whether VRis EAR/ONS remains a mystery, and it is as big a mystery as who EAR/ONS is.
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By dengas
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9 months ago
959 Posts
NO EAR/ONS prints?
So, back to your statement, Badge, there are no EAR/ONS prints, right? Then RW had to have been full of CRAP. Again, did he have a purpose for what he said to Urit222? And, another question...what does Larry P. think of a connection? Is he 50/50, more, or less in his belief in a connection between VR and EAR/ONS?
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By dengas
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9 months ago
959 Posts
Re: VR DNA
Posted By: dengas
And I don't know whether Visalia has VR's DNA or not. If they did, and it matched the EAR/ONS, wouldn't they make that information public? How long did they know about the ONS/EAR match before it became known? I'm serious. Wouldn't it be public knowledge if there were a match? So, round and round with no answers because Visalia LE isn't sharing, and Russ W. may have spoken out of turn, or he was making it up. If he was making the VR/EAR/ONS connection up, then one would have to ask why? Why did he tell Urit222 that prints from her house matched EAR/ONS? She didn't even know about EAR/ONS. Badge, whether VRis EAR/ONS remains a mystery, and it is as big a mystery as who EAR/ONS is.

These ransackings were the precursor to rapings, and came after a period of peeping, so they are sexual in nature. I have a hard time believing that VR didnt leave semen at any of these crime scenes. Did they even bother to look for it, inside or outside of the homes?

Let me make it explicit: he had to have masturbated in at least some of these homes.
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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 9 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
9 months ago
469 Posts
Preservation of evidence
Back in 1974 there was no such thing as DNA. Also, rape had a statute of limitations. Thanks to Larry Crompton we have information and evidence from Contra Costa County that would have been destroyed when the statute ran out. I wonder if LE even threw out fingerprints from the VR, if there were any. I imagine anything with DNA would not have been recognized as evidence, or of value back then.
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By Sandia
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9 months ago
1329 Posts
masturbating
Posted By: the confidence is the balaclava
Posted By: dengas
And I don't know whether Visalia has VR's DNA or not. If they did, and it matched the EAR/ONS, wouldn't they make that information public? How long did they know about the ONS/EAR match before it became known? I'm serious. Wouldn't it be public knowledge if there were a match? So, round and round with no answers because Visalia LE isn't sharing, and Russ W. may have spoken out of turn, or he was making it up. If he was making the VR/EAR/ONS connection up, then one would have to ask why? Why did he tell Urit222 that prints from her house matched EAR/ONS? She didn't even know about EAR/ONS. Badge, whether VRis EAR/ONS remains a mystery, and it is as big a mystery as who EAR/ONS is.

These ransackings were the precursor to rapings, and came after a period of peeping, so they are sexual in nature. I have a hard time believing that VR didnt leave semen at any of these crime scenes. Did they even bother to look for it, inside or outside of the homes?

Let me make it explicit: he had to have masturbated in at least some of these homes.
Well. . . if sticky lotion bottles and disturbed lingerie suggest masturbating, then yes. The lotion bottle is a trait the VR and EAR shared.
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By PortofLeith
Member
9 months ago
950 Posts
lingerie
And, rape or not, wouldn't they have kept the "used" lingerie as evidence anyways? In one of the latter newspaper articles, it shows LE with boxes and boxes relating to the VR. I'd love to know what's in the boxes; hopefully they aren't just filled with reports.
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By dengas
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9 months ago
959 Posts
Re: Re: VR DNA
Posted By: the confidence is the balaclava
Posted By: dengas
And I don't know whether Visalia has VR's DNA or not. If they did, and it matched the EAR/ONS, wouldn't they make that information public? How long did they know about the ONS/EAR match before it became known? I'm serious. Wouldn't it be public knowledge if there were a match? So, round and round with no answers because Visalia LE isn't sharing, and Russ W. may have spoken out of turn, or he was making it up. If he was making the VR/EAR/ONS connection up, then one would have to ask why? Why did he tell Urit222 that prints from her house matched EAR/ONS? She didn't even know about EAR/ONS. Badge, whether VRis EAR/ONS remains a mystery, and it is as big a mystery as who EAR/ONS is.

These ransackings were the precursor to rapings, and came after a period of peeping, so they are sexual in nature. I have a hard time believing that VR didnt leave semen at any of these crime scenes. Did they even bother to look for it, inside or outside of the homes?

Let me make it explicit: he had to have masturbated in at least some of these homes.
It has been said that at one of the homes VR ransacked he "perused" through a copy of Playboy magazine and may have used lotion........so I guess if you fill in the blanks its most likely he did. The problem is that the VR crimes pre-date DNA ,so even if evidence (i.e. semen) was collected it probably wouldnt have been stored correctly hence the chances of getting a profile are low.........
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By DanCartell
Member
9 months ago
683 Posts
Re: Whitmeyer says VR=EAR.....how?

I knew it. And he wouldnt have taken the semen with him or flushed it. He would have left the semen where it would be found, by a woman. So it mustve been on some underwear in a few panty drawers of the occupants, etc.

LE knew that some ransackings were sexual in nature. Pervs have been stealing women's unmentionable's probably since they were invented. They would have known that they would find semen, because pervs who break in to steal the underwear sometimes do things to them. Masturbate with/on them or other clothes, shoes, etc. Or leave things like chewed gum in them. Theyre being aggressive, trying to shock and scare the victim. Telling them that they cant be safe in their space and that he's got the power to dominate it...all of it; your panties or your peanutbutter, they all belong to him. Reminds me of a guy I know.

And sometimes those sexually aggressive acts are a precursor to rapes. What Im saying is, they should have taken the semen as evidence anyway. They should have known better. VR wasnt a nuisance, he was terrorizing that community by hitting so many places. And they mustve guessed that things were bound to take a turn and get ugly at some point because: law of averages. VR was going to get more aggressive, VR was going to rape someone, VR was going to get surprised by an occupant and hurt/kill them, etc
And they did when he tired to abduct that girl (did he also beat her?) for rape or murder or both, and that itself ended in murder when her dad tried to stop the crime in commission. Sad.

They wouldve/shouldve taken the semen for the same reasons that they take it in a rape. It could have told them something, at least, about the criminal that they couldnt get a bead on in over 100 ransackings. Who's brilliant LE work was it to make the decision to not take the semen, but just do a stake out? They thought it would be easy to catch this guy by groundwork after 100 B&Es?

As for deteriorated semen, Im not sure what they can do with that kind of specimen. but youd think they would get at least some info from it. If dengas is right, VR's semen and possibly hair might be in some box somewhere, if the box/es exist.

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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 9 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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9 months ago
469 Posts
Re: Re: Whitmeyer says VR=EAR.....how?
Posted By: the confidence is the balaclava

If dengas is right, VR's semen and possibly hair might be in some box somewhere, if the box/es exist.

That's the point I'm trying to make. For someone like Whitmeyer to make a statement that EAR IS VR they would have to have prints from EAR to compare them to VR. OR they'd have to have DNA from VR to compare it to EAR. I was always under the impression that they had DNA from EAR but not from VR. They had prints from VR but not from EAR...if true, what would they have to compare the two?
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Edited by TheBadge, 9 months ago
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By TheBadge
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9 months ago
99 Posts

Quick Reply

[Drifter]

The Belt Buckle Again

I'm going to beat the military angle to death some more. The Army Military Police Corps' insignia is two crossed pistols. Whether EAR/ONS was or wasn't military, he seemed to like some military gear and I thought maybe that was where he came up with the belt buckle. This is the official insignia, but they usually sell bigger versions of the military belt buckles in different metals to wear with civilian clothes, or you can get them custom made.







Belt Buckle"The insignia of crossed pistols for the Military Police Corps was approved in 1923. The insignia is not crossed dueling pistols as many people believe. The device is a scale model of the Harpers Ferry Army officers' sidearm and holster pistol of a century and a half ago.

The original pistols, for the design were in the collection of Major Jerome Clark, U.S. Army. The device and its development were the idea of Captain George M. Chandler, War Department General Staff, U.S. Army. The drawings for the insignia were made in 1922 by the Heraldic Section, Quartermaster General."

Belt Buckle 2
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Edited by privatecitizen, 7 months ago
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By privatecitizen
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7 months ago
76 Posts



Very Interesting...
I am surprised that that belt buckle has not been identified. They seem to be rare.
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By Archangel76
Member
7 months ago
2156 Posts
Very rare...
I've looked at well over a thousand gun belt-buckles on various sites and can't come close to one like the original drawing. I've seen a bunch of crossed pistols (See those for Guns 'N Roses, for example). What was the source of that drawing Archangel? Was it a witnesses' memory sketch or an imprint on a body? What's unusual is the type of guns depicted on the origninal drawing. They're very detailed. They are, in my opinion, definitely cap and ball (the ones pictured above are flintlocks) and very likely Colt pistols and probably Colt Paterson pistols (very rare guns) due to their distinct shape and grip. Another curious thing about the original drawing of the buckle is that the guns are placed high on the buckle with a lot of empty space below. I wonder if the police deleted and have held back what may have been in the middle, such as a logo of some sort. I will say that the ones posted by PrivateCitizen above come closer than any others I have seen.
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By Warren
Member
7 months ago
121 Posts
Belt Buckle and Ceres rapist

Privecitizen and Warren,

belt buckles I have also searched for the elusive belt buckle and only have found one style in which the pistols weren't crossed. However, the guns and and design features aren't in the EAR sketch, so not really a good match. In my research, I have found lots of pistol buckles that were given as a bonus item in gun buys in the 1970's, e.g. a Dan Wesson special. You will probably laugh but Daisy Air BB pistols also made western replica pistols in the 1970's and also gave belt buckles as a gift. I am aware of at least one such air pistol stolen at an EAR rape. Like VR, EAR seemed to have a fascination with guns. I wonder if any of the VR or EAR crimes involved the theft of the elusive buckle?

Arch has mentioned that we should look at all paroled rapists in this time period. Because even repeat rapist offenders were released from prison after only a year or two max, I think we should start looking at all rapists convicted from 1970-74. I found one Ceres rape that closely matched an EAR attack that remains unsolved.

Here are two more that involve ligatures, the right description and a long barrelled pistol.

Ceres
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Edited by PortofLeith, 7 months ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
7 months ago
953 Posts
Re: Very Rare

Warren, it does look like there should be something below the guns. Maybe that is something that LE is holding back or it could be that whatever was there didn't leave enough of an imprint on the victim for them to be able to tell for sure.


Port, I did see some promotional belt buckles given by Daisy with their BB guns, but couldn't find anything similar to the drawing. I saw where Alwiks posted a pic of one from Crossman Air Guns where the layout of the guns depicted were more in line, but not the right type of guns. Amityville11 had a pic as their avatar that was closer, but they didn't come back and give more info. Thank you for posting the info about the Ceres rapes. I bet EAR did commit more rapes than what's been tied to him.

Arch, do you know how reliable the belt buckle drawing is and whether it's something LE felt sure was accurate?

A silly thought, but maybe not. Perhaps he got the elusive belt buckle by redeeming S&H green stamps. Laughing
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Edited by privatecitizen, 7 months ago
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By privatecitizen
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7 months ago
76 Posts
Re: The Belt Buckle Again

The ONS belt buckle impression was off of a victim's body. How detailed would it be?
Could it be lifted like a fingerprint off the body ,or were they just looking at the impression the belt left on the body?
What is the chance that the impression was only partially taken, or that he was hitting the body repeatedly with that buckle during a rape possibly, so that the impression is one that is not accurate, but has shifted with each hit to the body? Thus two guns that might look separated, are not actually, and that it might have to do with the shifting done. No one on this board has actually seen the impression taken from the body, just a sketch of what they think was reported.

Or did he lay perfectly still on a dead body for long enough for them to get enough detail to read an insignia?
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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 7 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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7 months ago
469 Posts
Just the facts M'aam

The belt buckle we' re discussing came from a description given by a victim while under hypnosis. I don't believe we have seen the belt buckle impression left on a victim's body as referred to in the Sacramento magazine article. I guess he must have left his pants on for that attack or he was even more peculiar than i thought.
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Edited by PortofLeith, 7 months ago
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By PortofLeith
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7 months ago
953 Posts
.
thinking under hypnotism.. could be flaws in the victims description of belt buckle..could it be possible that maybe the buckle could of been buckles we all have seen..and the victim may of mistaken for what she had thought she had seen.
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By fumanchuc
Member
7 months ago
141 Posts
Blahclava

I have barely posted on the board for months now, as most topics seem to be sidetracked by Balaclavas' ramblings.

This forum attracts its fair share of weirdos...

It would be amusing (if this wasn't such a tragic case) how Balaclava is so argumentative, yet GETS SO MUCH WRONG....the belt buckle being the latest example!

How on earth do you have the cheek to come on here and present yourself as some sort of authority on the case when you don't even know half the basics?

How can you demand sources from others yet refuse to cite your own?

That sort of behaviour makes you seem moronic.

There are people on here who have spent years - even decades - researching EARONS and have forgotten more than you know.

Your heart is in the right place and I agree with many of the points you have made, but please try to refrain from arguing with everyone and from sidetracking almost every issue with your rambling.

You are not particularly knowledgable about this case so please try to remember that AN EMPTY BARREL MAKES THE MOST NOISE.

You clearly have an argumentative nature but try fighting the urge to respond and just spend a bit of time listening and learning...

Please!
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Edited by SammyT, 7 months ago
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By SammyT
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7 months ago
433 Posts
Nicely put
SammyT, I agree with you 100%
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By briffyboy
Member
7 months ago
222 Posts
SammyT
I second Briffyboy's comment
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By Sandia
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7 months ago
1382 Posts
SammyT
I second Briffyboy's comment
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By Sandia
Member
7 months ago
1382 Posts
Re: Blahclava
Posted By: SammyT

I have barely posted on the board for months now, as most topics seem to be sidetracked by Balaclavas' ramblings.

This forum attracts its fair share of weirdos...

It would be amusing (if this wasn't such a tragic case) how Balaclava is so argumentative, yet GETS SO MUCH WRONG....the belt buckle being the latest example!

How on earth do you have the cheek to come on here and present yourself as some sort of authority on the case when you don't even know half the basics?

How can you demand sources from others yet refuse to cite your own?

That sort of behaviour makes you seem moronic.

There are people on here who have spent years - even decades - researching EARONS and have forgotten more than you know.

Your heart is in the right place and I agree with many of the points you have made, but please try to refrain from arguing with everyone and from sidetracking almost every issue with your rambling.

You are not particularly knowledgable about this case so please try to remember that AN EMPTY BARREL MAKES THE MOST NOISE.

You clearly have an argumentative nature but try fighting the urge to respond and just spend a bit of time listening and learning...

Please!

uFck uYo. And your delusions of grandeur.

And also, how about you shut up and listen, instead? I dont give a fuckle what youre on about, and Ill say what I like, when I like it. But I do like how youve narrated that youve held yourself back all this time and now just cant bear it any longer! You just, must, must say something! As if youre anyone important. To anything.

If youre arguing over a belt buckle that someone 'saw' under hypnosis, then that about defines the merit of all your years of hard work of 'research.' There are a lot of problems with information given 'under' hypnosis(u G), to glom onto this thing is absurd. Nothing given under hypnosis in this case has ever helped, and probably hurt in some cases. And a lot of people were 'put under;...to what end? The bull tattoo the little girl 'saw' is one example of misleading information. The chance that she saw a tattoo on ears' bared forearm isnt very believable at all; it's a kid's story. But it's in the ID information about him. So if someone looked at that, they might rule their suspect out, based on specious pseudo-information.

The idea that youre going to crack the case on a rare form of belt buckle is foolish. This guy who took the pains he did to protect his anonymity was going to flash a tattoo or wear an identifiable article of clothing that he might lose in flight from a home, really? ...recall him walking away with out his pants. He attacked frequently without his pants; either left them outside or in the house. He also sometimes dropped his pants and belt buckle in front of the women and girls he was about to sexually assault. He knew they might see his shoes, socks, pants -whether with a towel on their head or not- ...and that they might also see his belt buckle on the ground.

So yeah, my mistake. I thought you were discussing something that might actually have some merit, like the belt buckle impression left on a victim's body. See, that would be hard evidence. Unlike information given under hypnosis, which if anything else has been proven to be a crock of cr*p in this case.




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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 7 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
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7 months ago
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purple shirt
Posted By: the confidence is the balaclava
Posted By: SammyT

I have barely posted on the board for months now, as most topics seem to be sidetracked by Balaclavas' ramblings.

This forum attracts its fair share of weirdos...

It would be amusing (if this wasn't such a tragic case) how Balaclava is so argumentative, yet GETS SO MUCH WRONG....the belt buckle being the latest example!

How on earth do you have the cheek to come on here and present yourself as some sort of authority on the case when you don't even know half the basics?

How can you demand sources from others yet refuse to cite your own?

That sort of behaviour makes you seem moronic.

There are people on here who have spent years - even decades - researching EARONS and have forgotten more than you know.

Your heart is in the right place and I agree with many of the points you have made, but please try to refrain from arguing with everyone and from sidetracking almost every issue with your rambling.

You are not particularly knowledgable about this case so please try to remember that AN EMPTY BARREL MAKES THE MOST NOISE.

You clearly have an argumentative nature but try fighting the urge to respond and just spend a bit of time listening and learning...

Please!

uFck uYo. And your delusions of grandeur.

And also, how about you shut up and listen, instead? I dont give a fuckle what youre on about, and Ill say what I like, when I like it. But I do like how youve narrated that youve held yourself back all this time and now just cant bear it any longer! You just, must, must say something! As if youre anyone important. To anything.

If youre arguing over a belt buckle that someone 'saw' under hypnosis, then that about defines the merit of all your years of hard work of 'research.' There are a lot of problems with information given 'under' hypnosis(u G), to glom onto this thing is absurd. Nothing given under hypnosis in this case has ever helped, and probably hurt in some cases. And a lot of people were 'put under;...to what end? The bull tattoo the little girl 'saw' is one example of misleading information. The chance that she saw a tattoo on ears' bared forearm isnt very believable at all; it's a kid's story. But it's in the ID information about him. So if someone looked at that, they might rule their suspect out, based on specious pseudo-information.

The idea that youre going to crack the case on a rare form of belt buckle is foolish. This guy who took the pains he did to protect his anonymity was going to flash a tattoo or wear an identifiable article of clothing that he might lose in flight from a home, really? ...recall him walking away with out his pants. He attacked frequently without his pants; either left them outside or in the house. He also sometimes dropped his pants and belt buckle in front of the women and girls he was about to sexually assault. He knew they might see his shoes, socks, pants -whether with a towel on their head or not- ...and that they might also see his belt buckle on the ground.

So yeah, my mistake. I thought you were discussing something that might actually have some merit, like the belt buckle impression left on a victim's body. See, that would be hard evidence. Unlike information given under hypnosis, which if anything else has been proven to be a crock of cr*p in this case.




An interesting observation about hypnosis, but this was one attack where the victim watched him before he started. He was wearing a purple shirt. She was already awake and observing him before he thought he was awakening her.
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Edited by PortofLeith, 7 months ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
7 months ago
953 Posts
Re: purple shirt
Posted By: PortofLeith
An interesting observation about hypnosis, but this was one attack where the victim watched him before he started. He was wearing a purple shirt. She was already awake and observing him before he thought he was awakening her.

Where do you come across this fact, that the victim specifically knew he was wearing a purple Tshirt? A few people saw him before he made his presence known, in a dark room, at night, and also where his dark form was silhouetted by any night light behind him. In Sudden Terror, its said she woke to see him come in through the sliding door, no mention of her saying that she saw the color of his tshirt or that she had noticed him before this-- while coming through the door, he was looking at her, simultneously --he was shining his flashlight in her eyes.

The mom that fought ears off, saw the color of his tshirt. She was looking at him close up and fullfrontal for minutes This was also an early attack of his. He lost his pants then. Even if he found them later, would he have not then learned how a belt buckle, an uncommon one at that, might get him IDed? Or are we going to blame everything on him being an evil genius who was trying to 'set up' every tom, dick and harry?

Back to the 'Sanford' case where the little girl was hypnotized. Months before she was hypnotized, she told her mom, that ear was wearing knit mittens. This little girl was called "sharp". Im not disputing any of her natural intelligence; she was a little girl of 6 who saw things in a little girl way. Ears was not wearing knit mittens, we all know that. If that was her way of expressing 'gloves' then I would expect the mom would have asked her if he was wearing mittens with separate fingers, like the kind adults wear. The little girl missed telling her mom that he had a tattoo on his forearm --in the nearly 3 month period before she was hypnotized, as i mentioned before on this topic, she wouldnt have missed this detail. Little kids are fascinated by tattoos. Out of all the things that would have been memorable to her, this would have been at the top of the list. She was hypnotized nearly 3 months later; thats like 3 years in little kid time. Enough time to cloud her thinking or more than likely embellish her story and make it more colorful. Because along with trying to impress adults, thats what they do.

Note also that she told her mom that ear told her he was playing tricks with her parents and to come and watch. When has ear ever treated children as other than something to control and get out of the way? He moves them out of the way; they are a minor inconvenience. He doesnt want to hurt them, he just doesnt want them around. They arent part of his fantasy. He doesnt include them. He never tries to trick them with words or explain why he's there or what he's doing, does he; and certainly not in that way. He probably let this girl go pee and made sure her door was closed after she went to bed. What she did in relaying the story embellished was what little kids who are "sharp" ie, creative, do: She explained ear like he was just some innocent man, who talked like a child her age would, and wanted to include her in the 'fun' everyone else was evidently having. She didnt see her parents in peril, as far as it was reported, but on some level she knew that a funnylooking man with a mask on and no pants, holding weapons, in her home in the middle of the night, with no parents around was not a good thing. Her way to explain their absence (or even if she saw them tied up), was to believe they were playing hide and seek, and the funny man was in a costume. That is what is more than likely going on in her head, as a 6yr old in that situation.
Recall also the 3yr old that thought his mom was being bandaged by a doctor, his only range of reference as to what was happening. The fact that ear tied him and put him down by the bed was probably not because he wanted him to listen or watch what he was going to do to his mom, but to keep the mom under control by not separating her from her very young child.
There were other cases where children in the homes were put into bathrooms, he shut their bedroom doors, he tied a 10yr old to the bed and took the mom away to another area; they werent part of his sick fantasies, they were inconveniences. He did the same thing with some of the dogs in the homes, too.
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Edited by the confidence is the balaclava, 7 months ago
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By the confidence is the balaclava
Member
7 months ago
469 Posts

[Drifter]

The damn dog!!!!!

I can't seem to get my head wrapped around "woofy"! Santa Barbara LE says the dog's been eliminated/written off as being involved. Same story with the dog stabbee and it's owner but no details have been provided. So, what exactly is the evidence relating to a dog at 2 of the Goleta scenes and how exactly has it been debunked (or not)?

I keep hearing that the dog belonged to someone in the neighborhood, oh, and that Glasby took the dog with him on "errands" or whatever. Sounds...... odd to me. And exactly how does any of this eliminate an EAR connection? I wish there were details avaliable.

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By erikdavid5111
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1 year ago
547 Posts



Doggie
I agree. Here we have a prolific criminal who after his EAR spree then brings, of all things, a three toed dog to crime scenes. Not just a dog, but a three toed dog. Screaming catch me....And then, feeds him there. The exact evidence I am not privy too. But some people here may be. These are very critical points to his psyche though. What is the all american family ? Most of the time it includes the family pet. Further evidence of a desire to fit that personna. I will be part of the family by indulging in the items in your fridge.
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By Smitty2011
Member
1 year ago
107 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
Same here, its one of things im most curious about when this case is finally solved, just what the hell was the deal with this dog
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By Koba1879
Member
1 year ago
150 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
Can anyone confirm erikdavid511's claim that ONS never brought dogs with him? If Santa Barbara LE said that there's no connection, I believe them. Most dogs reacted negatively to EAR and EAR seemed to hate dogs.
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By Cimmerian10
Member
1 year ago
1000 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!

all SB LE said was that "the dog has been eliminated" but they didn't sound too sure about it, didn't provide any additional details, and weren't asked to either. Very frustrating.
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Edited by erikdavid5111, 1 year ago
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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
Re: Re: The damn dog!!!!!
Posted By: Koba1879
Same here, its one of things im most curious about when this case is finally solved, just what the hell was the deal with this dog
The dog is an intriguing angle in the Santa Barbara crimes, reading between the lines I suspect EAR came across the dog while prowling and took it with him as he would have looked like a dog walker to the casual observer. The connection of the dog to Glasby also raises a few issues: was it pure coincidence that EAR and Glasby used the same K9 for their "errands" ? or was EAR aware of the dogs connection to Glasby hence he used it to make sure detectives focused on Glasby ?.....either way I doubt EAR ,after all his activities and lessons learnt, would use something that could be connected back to him hence I`m not too surprised no connection can be found to EAR through the dog or its owner........
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By DanCartell
Member
1 year ago
683 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!

It seems the safest assumption at this point that EAR(shole) did indeed come across the dog while prowling and took it along with him as a ruse. However: coming back a year later and "borrowing" the same dog to take to another scene? Did EAR bring a dog leash with him for this very mission? As a kid who grew up with a German Shepard as the family dog, it seems odd that some creep in a ski mask could climb into a backyard and just enlist the dog as his accomplice without getting a limb bitten off in the process. So, did the dog already know him??? If he didn't, the dog would have likely at least barked his head off at the mere appearance of EAR, making such a scheme unlikely to succeed. So, did EAR make it a point to befriend the dog over time (perhaps tossing doggie treats over the fence and gradually making it's acquaintance) or did he already know the dog because he knew Glasby and had been at the dog's residence before? Unless he figured the cops would track down and interview EVERYONE who Glasby had ever known in his life, it's not toooooo much of a stretch to imagine EAR might have been trying to pin the crimes on Glasby.


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Edited by erikdavid5111, 1 year ago
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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
Are we also assuming that the guy jogging with the dog and standing behind the Domingo residence with the dog is indeed EAR?
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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
Maybe it was 2 different dogs... I never heard whether the dog at the Domingo residence was a three-toed dog. IMHO the dog theory, though intriguing, is a dead end at this point (30 years later). Perhaps it was a stray at Manning's and EAR had an epiphany... "Hey... having a dog along is not a bad idea.... What is more innocent than a man walking his dog?" he then acquires his own dog. Though Erickdavid raises a good point. There is no proof that the man behind the Domingo residence was EAR.
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By Arbed
Member
1 year ago
278 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
Wasn't/Isn't the dog legend based around their supposedly being: 3 toed dog prints at the O/M, D/S scenes as well as on a bridge where there were also blood drops?

Combine this with a guy seen jogging with a dog the night of at least one of the crimes, as well as a guy with a dog seen standing behind the Domingo residence and looking over the fence, AND the weird dog stabbing incident (the night of O/M?) as well as the dog beating death (that same night?) and I'd say the dog could perhaps be quite important.

Sorry, if I have any details wrong. It's been a while since I've focused on this case (doing so is a great way to lose sleep, I've found)
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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
Dog
I believe there is evidence, do not quote me, that the same dog was at the scene of at least two murders. How that is known other than tracks found I do not know. I seem to recall somewhere it was indicated he fed the dog turkey bones. Again, fact or fiction I can't confirm. Is there evidence this dog was tied to glasby other than heresay ? If ONS lived in this area, I believe he did, too tight a cluster, would he have known of Glasby ? Maybe, but give me concrete evidence of this same exact dog being tied to Glasby. Does it exist ?
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By Smitty2011
Member
1 year ago
107 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
So, what exactly is the dog evidence?

It would be nice to compile a "dog evidence" dossier or something to that effect.

If the dog was involved at all as the legend suggests, it's pretty freaking weird and should be looked at as closely as possible.
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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
The other brothers...
You know, the two deceased brothers also had two surviving brothers, born in 58 and 59, both at some point lived in Santa Barbara and Goleta. I know this is probably very well known, but perhaps DKK was friends with both and the dog.
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By Warren
Member
1 year ago
121 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
it is certainly worth looking into
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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
Two facts about dogs

Erik- i also find the dog reports confusing to say the least but here are two facts:


1) The owner of the dog that was stabbed two weeks prior to HH, apparently was cleared of any involvement. So who stabbed the dog? Was the dog an invconvenience to peeping activity? If so, that means ONS was active in the neighborhood in Goleta at least two weeks prior to HH.

2) The blood found on the walking bridge after the Domingo Sanchez murder was apparently the tip of the iceberg. A neighbor living on Toltec was interviewed by the Santa Barbara television station last May 2011 and he said the sidewalk leading to the footbridge was covered in blood. So did we have two maniacs in the same tiny neighborhood- one killing dogs and the other people or are they the same animal? We are aware of the dog beating in Rancho Cordova, the dog beating in Goleta the night of Offerman Manning and the apparent stabbing of a dog in the vicinity of Domingo Sanchez the night of their murders. Are there other reports of animal cruelty we are not aware of? Perhaps, EAR only used the dogs when he needed them and then callously killed them if he didn't.

I guess EAR falls into the 90% category of serial killers who like to torture animals as well as people.



Blood on the sidewalk newscast:

www.keyt.com/news/local/Serial-Killer-Cold-Case-Linked-Locally-121332969.html?skipthumb=Y
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Edited by PortofLeith, 1 year ago
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By PortofLeith
Member
1 year ago
953 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
This dog just seems like such a massive lead that any claim from the LE that they "cleared it of any involvement" can't be trusted. They havnt solved the case in 35 years, with all possible information and now DNA, so who cares what they have cleared of involvement.
Remember, EAR was using the dog in a time before DNA was invented, he was trying to set someone but not taking into account future evidence possibilities
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By Koba1879
Member
1 year ago
150 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
OK, there was blood on the bridge? Who's blood? Animal blood? Human blood? If human blood, blood from Domingo and/or Sanchez or from the killer?

Everything about this case just leads to more questions.

LE might have cleared the stabbed dog and it's owner, but so what? That fact does nothing to address the problem of the dog at the crime scenes and the guy seen running with the dog and standing with the dog.

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By erikdavid5111
Member
1 year ago
556 Posts
Re: The damn dog!!!!!
If the guy indeed brought a three toed dog to two Goleta crime scenes a year apart and was also seen jogging away from one of the scenes with the dog, and standing behind the crime scene of another with this dog, and with no other dog evidence/sightings associated with any of the other crimes: this obviously makes the dog particular to Goleta. Apparently LE claims to have tracked the dog down and somehow eliminated it and or anyone else associated with it.... Fat chance of this being true, IMHO.
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By erikdavid5111
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1 year ago
556 Posts