Revisiting the Offerman/Manning murders .....

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 5, 2014 1:03:08 GMT dengas said:

Sandia said " Again Dengas, I feel your frustration. Have you ever gone in and with the passion and candor you expressed above in your excellent post asked for a point blank answer?"

Yes indeedy! In 1984 I met several times with DA Ron Couiilard , with Cody Woods and his partner, and I actually called the voted in DA who tried and convicted Oscar in June, 1976, six months after he was arrested, I might add. I think I have said before, but at the time I was looking at Mark S. And Rodney B. As being the VR's. I was being followed by DA's Investigator and had our newly cherries out VW stolen and torched (one of two vehicles destroyed in the 80's).


One time I met with Mark's drug counselor. I went through why I thought he was the VR and also showed her why I believed Oscar was innocent. She said that I couldn't convince her about Mark, but that I had convinced her that Oscar was set up and was innocent. Oh well...he is no longer living, so I am certain no one, other than his family, would care.

That was so excellent of you Dengas!  That was so strange that you would be followed by the DA's Investigator?  Why would they do that?  You a concerned citizen!  Did they suspect you that you knew too much, and suspected you?  Or do you suspect a coverup?  Your new VW was stolen and torched, I remember you told me that before and couldn't understand why.  So you feel the DA was harassing you?  Did you feel the DA was responsible for torching your car?    Are you saying you had another vehicle destroyed under suspicious circumstances too? But if you went to see the DA in June 1976, and your car incidents took place in the 80's do you see a connection?  Am I missing something?  Can you explain a bit further.  I've never had any car stolen, torched, let alone two?  That is so strange!

What you have put together regarding Oscar is compelling.  I knew he was critically ill, but didn't know he died.  Did he die in prison?  I care, even if he is now dead,  if he was innocent.  Not only for his families sake but for the sake of this case because it could tie in.  I don't know whether to say poor Oscar or not because I am not sure if he was guilty or not, but it is tragic when there has been a miscarriage of justice, not just for the accused but for their family and because the true perpetrator has not been brought to justice.

[tmacchallenger]

If you believe that he was the Ransacker, then he was characteristically careless in some very important instances.



Not subduing Proffesor Snelling and tieing him up so he could have his way with his daughter. Mistake.

After getting away with murder, anyone with an ounce of common sense would leave the area. He did not and almost got caught by a police stake-out. Another potentially big mistake.

If you believe that EAR and GSK are one in the same, then him leaving some papers behind, accidently, seems very likely

[dengas]

I became interested in the VR in 1983 as I knew Mark and his family. The VW was one that we camped in...refrig., sink, with pop up top. It was stolen a couple of weeks, maybe even one week, after I called the DA at his home and very innocently told him I thought he had convicted the wrong person, that I thought [redacted by Drifter] was the Ransacker and that I also believed he murdered Donna Richmond In Exeter.

I had lived around the corner from this particular DA in the '70's, when I was in my 20's, so I knew who he was and what he and his wife looked like. Then, in the 80's, when I called him , every time I turned around there he was. The weirdest time was when my boss had taken another secretary and me out to lunch at a place called Abel's Meat Market. If anyone is on the board who lived in Visalia in the 80's, they will tell you the restaurant was quite obscure. We were the only group in the restaurant. Then this big burly guy, with a big huge belt buckle, came up the stairs, looked at me, went down for a couple of minutes, and then came in with JPEG and his wife. Gave me the creeps.

But odder still...JP bought (I'm assuming) Mark's family's home and they moved into the McGowen incident neighborhood. They lived half way between the doctor's home and where the flashlight incident took place. His grandparents lived two blocks south of the stakeout.

[dengas]

Cover up? It makes me sick to even think about it. Did they suspect me? No...I am sure they thought I was a nut. but, then in 1984, Cody Woods had me come down to the police department and show them what I had put together. They, too, were looking at [redacted by Drifter] as being the VR. I personally don't know if/how he was cleared, especially since Visalia doesn't SEEM to have any evidence.

There is another oddity...back in the 80's I remember reading in the newspaper that something had been sent to a lab in the Snelling case for DNA testing. The paper didn't explain what it was, but how come they had something back then and not now?

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 5, 2014 5:29:55 GMT tmacchallenger said:

If you believe that he was the Ransacker, then he was characteristically careless in some very important instances.



Not subduing Proffesor Snelling and tieing him up so he could have his way with his daughter. Mistake.

After getting away with murder, anyone with an ounce of common sense would leave the area. He did not and almost got caught by a police stake-out. Another potentially big mistake.

If you believe that EAR and GSK are one in the same, then him leaving some papers behind, accidently, seems very likely

I have a couple of thoughts on what you are saying tmachallenger.  I believe he did not subdue Prof. Snelling because Prof. Snelling was married and sleeping with his wife.  (I think there was a brother in the home too if I am not mistaken, not sure about that)  If the VR is the EAR/ONS, he had not yet graduated to controlling couples or tying people up and so he was younger as the VR than the EAR/ONS.  I've got to agree it was a big blunder, almost bull in a china shop, but to me seems to indicate lack of experience.  It also demonstrates incredible boldness which EAR/ONS had.  It might also demonstrate youth. It could have got him caught, or at least identified, yet instead it cost Prof. Snelling his life.

It does seem initially like it would be common sense to leave the area BUT....actually it was very smart not to leave the area.  That would have called attention to him more than staying put.  Possibly he was not able to leave the area.  Was he in school?  Did he live with his parents?  Did he have a job that he would need to give notice to? etc.  But...again I agree completely it seems absolutely insane to continue his illegal activities and not lay low.  Again, could it be some sense of invincibility?  Does that tie into his boldness? the sense of invincibility or a sense of superiority, that he is smarter than LE and everyone else?   Yes, not laying low was another huge blunder that could have ended with him being apprehended but almost cost Officer McGowen his life.

Yes, leaving the papers behind could absolutely be accidental yet, I think danmiami made some really good points that it was not accidental.  I don't know, I'd never considered that before, but want to keep my mind open about that.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 5, 2014 5:52:43 GMT dengas said:

Cover up? It makes me sick to even think about it. Did they suspect me? No...I am sure they thought I was a nut. but, then in 1984, Cody Woods had me come down to the police department and show them what I had put together. They, too, were looking at [redacted by Drifter] as being the VR. I personally don't know if/how he was cleared, especially since Visalia doesn't SEEM to have any evidence.

There is another oddity...back in the 80's I remember reading in the newspaper that something had been sent to a lab in the Snelling case for DNA testing. The paper didn't explain what it was, but how come they had something back then and not now?

All fascinating things you are saying, Dengas.  I do recall reading in a newspaper article that Beth Snelling said they had his DNA?  How can that be?  If that is true how can there be any question if the VR is the EAR/ONS/GSK.  Also did 't they say there is a fingerprint from Visalia.  So same question.

[tmacchallenger]

Sept 5, 2014 7:43:18 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Sept 5, 2014 5:29:55 GMT tmacchallenger said:

If you believe that he was the Ransacker, then he was characteristically careless in some very important instances.



Not subduing Proffesor Snelling and tieing him up so he could have his way with his daughter. Mistake.

After getting away with murder, anyone with an ounce of common sense would leave the area. He did not and almost got caught by a police stake-out. Another potentially big mistake.

If you believe that EAR and GSK are one in the same, then him leaving some papers behind, accidently, seems very likely

I have a couple of thoughts on what you are saying tmachallenger.  I believe he did not subdue Prof. Snelling because Prof. Snelling was married and sleeping with his wife.  (I think there was a brother in the home too if I am not mistaken, not sure about that)  If the VR is the EAR/ONS, he had not yet graduated to controlling couples or tying people up and so he was younger as the VR than the EAR/ONS.  I've got to agree it was a big blunder, almost bull in a china shop, but to me seems to indicate lack of experience.  It also demonstrates incredible boldness which EAR/ONS had.  It might also demonstrate youth. It could have got him caught, or at least identified, yet instead it cost Prof. Snelling his life.

It does seem initially like it would be common sense to leave the area BUT....actually it was very smart not to leave the area.  That would have called attention to him more than staying put.  Possibly he was not able to leave the area.  Was he in school?  Did he live with his parents?  Did he have a job that he would need to give notice to? etc.  But...again I agree completely it seems absolutely insane to continue his illegal activities and not lay low.  Again, could it be some sense of invincibility?  Does that tie into his boldness? the sense of invincibility or a sense of superiority, that he is smarter than LE and everyone else?   Yes, not laying low was another huge blunder that could have ended with him being apprehended but almost cost Officer McGowen his life.

Yes, leaving the papers behind could absolutely be accidental yet, I think danmiami made some really good points that it was not accidental.  I don't know, I'd never considered that before, but want to keep my mind open about that.

That's the thing. He didn't have to leave the area, all he had to do was to stop ransacking. That alone is a big enough 'mistake,' or reason to not give him all the credit that posters are giving him for being a flawless criminal.

[tmacchallenger]

Sept 4, 2014 22:53:13 GMT danmiami said:

Sept 3, 2014 8:35:18 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

I want to share what I know. I have some of my notes but not all, so parts of this will be specific and parts from memory.

The vacant condo next door to Offerman/Manning at 769 Avenida Pequena was for sale and the female owner of that condo allowed her son, I'll call him C.M., to stay in that condo and let him have his friends over to play Dungeons and Dragons. There was a sofa in the condo. Apparently they played Dungeons and Dragons numerous times. The evening leading up to the murders of O/M the boys were playing and they left to Carrows, an all night large coffee shop on Calle Real near by  around midnight (I have to find my notes to be positive it was midnight, but I think so). I don't know what time C.M. returned to go to sleep. At some point EAR/ONS broke into his condo and I would assume it was before the murders of O/M and not after, and I would assume he broke in after the boys left unless he was hidden in the condo while they were in there. I kind of doubt it because I think the boys would have noticed the break in .

At 10:30 to 11 p.m. Dr. Offerman delivered a ski boot tree to his son.
At 12:00 Offerman's neighbor heard his Porsche drive into the parking lot north of her condo. She heard 3 voices. One that sounded like Offerman. One of an unidentified male and an unidentified female.
Around midnight C.M. and friends left for Carrows.
3:05 a.m. O/M were murdered, multiple shots were fired.

Question: When did C.M. return home? Creepy scenario. Did he arrive after 3:05 a.m. or before and was fast asleep and not hear the shots next door? But in the morning he sauntered outside oblivious to what had happened. He was questioned as well as all of the other boys and they were cleared.

Here is where it gets very interesting to me. There was another kid. initials A.S., 6' tall (and if I recall correctly he has red hair). A.S. usually played D/D with those boys in that condo but not that night as I understand it.

Twine was found at:
773 Ave Pequena on the Patio
769 Ave. Pequena in the Master Bathroom
Creekbed at intersection of Cathedral Oaks and Kellogg under the bridge on the west side of 866 North Kellogg on the trail leading to the greenbelt
825 North Kellogg on the dirt trail east side of roadway
at XXX Queen Ann Lane, Front lawn next to side walk

Here is where my framing theory comes in to play and it seems so O B V I O U S to me.  The twine was dropped like bread crumbs from the murder scene along the above mentioned route and landed on the Queen Ann lawn of A.S.

Now with DNA A.S. of course has been cleared, also he is too tall, I'll bet his feet are too big, and I think he has red hair, none the less, I'd be willing to wager he has been under LE scrutiny for years. I think the teen sister of A.S. might have been a possible target of EAR/ONS. She is the one who witnessed a man knocking on her neighbors door at 6:10 p.m. and again the same male knocked at 7:00 p.m. That neighbor was one of the 5 burglary victims that night. The neighbor returned home at 9:30 to discover the burglary. Another neighbor in front of A.S. on Windsor Court was also burglarized, the one with the dog that was beaten, and his other neighbor less than a block away was H/H the first Goleta couple that escaped. A.S. was like in the center of a circle of crimes with the twine leading to his lawn. Framed!

I contacted the father of A.S. and got out about two sentences, only to be told "how dare I call him" and that my saying that I think his son was framed was "B.S." and he hung up the phone, furious with me. I wrote him a nice letter explaining that I was very  sincere and explaining my framing theory and that I would give him a week to think about it and I would call again. I asked him to please help me and cooperate in catching this murderer who undoubtedly caused his family a lot of grief too but....if he did not want to help me I would never contact him again. When I called a week later, he was no longer furious with me but just said he didn't want to talk and that I had hit a dead end and hung up again. I have never tried to contact him again. Why would he not want to help me? I can't understand that.  I wanted to ask if A.S. noticed anyone following him home?  If he had an enemy?  If he knew anyone that came from No. Cal etc.  If he knew Brett Glasby?  Of course I couldn't ask if he had a drug connection but some of the other people I think were framed were of questionable character and possibly small time drug dealers such as Brett Glasby.

Here are some of the other times I think EAR/ONS tried to frame people. So much so that I almost think it is a part of his M.O.
There was the jacket dropped at a scene in I think Davis. The security officer's badge, that was dropped. There was a baseball cap that said "Overhead Garage" I was told about that I believe was dropped, there was the bag of costume jewlery left in the home of Tracy Earle making him come under suspicion. Tracy Earle was the teen boy neighbor of "Heather" victim #6, 10/09/76. There was Walter Hamilton, the EAR/ONS kept jumping into his yard and stomping around and kicking over fencing and there was more. Apparently Walter Hamilton was a prime poi until DNA. I no longer know if the dog was used to frame Brett Glasby. There is another poi whose DNA is scheduled for testing and Arch agrees with me that if this poi is not the EAR/ONS (he is dead) then Arch thinks he was framed. By the way the jacket that was worn in Danville with letters that are said to be "CORN" could tie in with this last poi I just mentioned. I think wearing an identifiable jacket could have been another attempt at framing this poi among other things.

Hi Sandia,

This may be one of the reasons LE failed to disclose the General Custer letter (trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here). I would bet that the letter was in no way "accidentally dropped" near one of the rape scenes. In fact I am not even sure where they found this letter? Sacramento? Anyway could it be possible that LE already identified who wrote the letter and it was another setup job by EAR? I am more inclined now to state that this letter may have resulted in another wild goose chase. It may have potentially narrowed down the list of those who had had access to it. But I doubt it was left there accidentally. Just like the "Mommy" comments were nonsense at the scenes. Another attempt at throwing off LE. Remember the profile "a chronic manipulative liar". This is one trait I am 100% (not 99.9%) he possesses on a day to day basis.

If that's the case, then why bother to release it without saying the Custer letter writer was found and ruled out? Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

TMA. Yes, you are right. He made mistakes. He almost got taken down by a housewife, the one where he walked away with tan shorts, no pants) lol. A woman shot at his leg coming through a window and unfortunately missed. The big burly man in the last No. Cal attack in Danville could have captured him (I don't blame him for not doing it, it must have been terrifying and he was just a citizen not a trained LE or soldier) Too bad Stan Los didn't catch him on the first Goleta attack of H/H on Queen Ann. So many factors, planning and cunning, but also luck and the public not calling in when they should have, several instances where he would have been apprehended I think if the call was made, and then cops not cooperating with each other.

One possibility is that his luck did run out and someone killed a would be burglar and nobody knows it was EAR/ONS. However, to argue with myself, there have been calls to previous victims and that does indicate he is might still be alive. I wouldn't want to die if I were him, he'll be heading somewhere very warm.

[Drifter]

Beginning with Sandia's excellent discussion from a couple of days ago about the Offerman/Manning murder scene, I have moved her post + followup posts from the "Police Reports" thread to this thread. I realize that more recent comments have diverged into the VR and other topics. But I will leave them here, at least for now, to preserve the continuity of the discussion.

Sorry for the interruption.  Carry on. 

Drifter

[dengas]

Sept 5, 2014 7:47:40 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Sept 5, 2014 5:52:43 GMT dengas said:

Cover up? It makes me sick to even think about it. Did they suspect me? No...I am sure they thought I was a nut. but, then in 1984, Cody Woods had me come down to the police department and show them what I had put together. They, too, were looking at [redacted by Drifter] as being the VR. I personally don't know if/how he was cleared, especially since Visalia doesn't SEEM to have any evidence.

There is another oddity...back in the 80's I remember reading in the newspaper that something had been sent to a lab in the Snelling case for DNA testing. The paper didn't explain what it was, but how come they had something back then and not now?

All fascinating things you are saying, Dengas.  I do recall reading in a newspaper article that Beth Snelling said they had his DNA?  How can that be?  If that is true how can there be any question if the VR is the EAR/ONS/GSK.  Also did 't they say there is a fingerprint from Visalia.  So same question.

[dengas]

I don't think Beth would have been quoted in the newspaper. THIS IS WHERE SAGA, or SAGE, the gal who posted a few times saying she would go to the library and do some reading , is needed. I , too, need to go back and find that article. It was quite small and would have been after 1984 or 1985., but I don't think it was in the 90's because I had started teaching by '92, and I remember where I was walking, telling a friend about the newspaper article, as I was assuming they were checking what they had against Mark. THERE is that word ASSUME!!!

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 5, 2014 15:44:22 GMT dengas said:

I don't think Beth would have been quoted in the newspaper. THIS IS WHERE SAGA, or SAGE, the gal who posted a few times saying she would go to the library and do some reading , is needed. I , too, need to go back and find that article. It was quite small and would have been after 1984 or 1985., but I don't think it was in the 90's because I had started teaching by '92, and I remember where I was walking, telling a friend about the newspaper article, as I was assuming they were checking what they had against Mark. THERE is that word ASSUME!!!

I can't remember if I saw the actual article or if someone quoted it, but I think someone posted it here on proboards.  Perhaps it was  her mother being quoted or interviewed.

[dengas]

Her mother is deceased and Beth has moved on. Beth's son wrote a letter to the editor saying that they wished the paper would not keep writing anniversary articles. Something needs to be done in Visalia if ever the VR is to be caught.

[Drifter]

Recent discussion about the possibility that Visalia has DNA for the Snelling murderer has been moved to the VR folder.

Drifter