Revisiting the Offerman/Manning murders .....

[danmiami]

Sept 5, 2014 5:05:10 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

danmiami posted:

Hi Sandia,

This may be one of the reasons LE failed to disclose the General Custer letter (trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here). I would bet that the letter was in no way "accidentally dropped" near one of the rape scenes. In fact I am not even sure where they found this letter? Sacramento? Anyway could it be possible that LE already identified who wrote the letter and it was another setup job by EAR? I am more inclined now to state that this letter may have resulted in another wild goose chase. It may have potentially narrowed down the list of those who had had access to it. But I doubt it was left there accidentally. Just like the "Mommy" comments were nonsense at the scenes. Another attempt at throwing off LE. Remember the profile "a chronic manipulative liar". This is one trait I am 100% (not 99.9%) he possesses on a day to day basis.

Wow Dan, I had never considered what you just said. It is my understanding that after new information on the case and renewed activity, some on the ball detective dug out the map and journal and Custer paper from an evidence locker where it has been sitting all these years. I wonder if it was because Michelle McNamara was going around interviewing various LE departments or because of other renewed publicity and activity on the case that got them relooking at things again.

It is my understanding that this evidence is connected to the October 9, 1978 Danville rape and was found nearby where he had apparently parked his get away car by a railroad track. How nearby I am not sure, blocks away I would imagine.

I had never considered that it was dropped on purpose.

Why would he be carrying around a journal ranting against a 6th grade teacher and the Custer Homework assignment with him in a car he planned on using as a getaway car from a crime scene? He undoubtedly used cars he bought for cash and did not register and he had to know he might have to abandon the car and run and he no doubt thought about what would be in the car that could lead to finding him.

Could it be homework from his own childhood, or the homework left in the car from someone he bought the car from? Somehow I doubt he himself had a child, but that is a possibility. I have no doubt the map is his work.

How did it drop out of the car? Was he uncharacteristically careless, or was he in a panic running, or as you say was it on purpose? Why have it in the car in the first place. I could understand if the homework/journal was from a previous owner and the map could have been from a current attack he was planning though. As you say, could it be it was the intent to implicate someone we don't know about but that LE in that jurisdiction might know about? Wow, this is one of the strangest mysteries within a mystery in this case along with the 8/29/76 walking away with no pants episode. Could you be right? So perplexing and strange!

Yes, I agree, he probably is to this day a chronic, manipulative liar.

Sandia consider this as well. Most people are assuming ONS had a domineering mother because he hated women and also from what he said at the scenes. Consider for a moment who is the serial killer all of these lunatics look up and try to emulate? Ted Bundy. Although he clearly had a hatred for women it was an old girlfriend and not his mother that he used as an excuse for killing. Because at the end of the day that is all it is. A sick twisted excuse in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Israel Keyes "Ted Bundy was my role model". I can go on and on. However Bundy was very close with his mother and even spoke with her via phone a few hours prior to his execution. She said to him "You will always be my precious son". Now that is unconditional love!!! Because the lives this sick and twisted bastard ruined is just disgusting. So ONS could have had a very normal loving mother. Also consider his pattern of crimes as I mentioned before. Bundy breaks into Chi Omega on The FSU campus and bludgeons to death 2 girls with a fireplace log. Smith murders in 1980 just a coincidence? Also Richard Ramirez (the other Night Stalker) captured in 1985. ONS' last crime that we know of was Janelle Cruz in 86. Again the similarities are disturbing.

Yes I ripped LE for not disclosing the letter to the public and they should have disclosed it anyway in my opinion. But I do not believe a thing that this sicko ever told his victims. "My main man needs silver and gold!". "I just need money and food for me and my girlfriend". "my van outside". "You looked good at the officers club". "Mommy you mother@cker!". All of it is probably nonsense and an attempt to divert attention away from himself. Also in the profile, "Will rarely admit fault and also blame others for his actions". Well there you go!!!

[danmiami]

Also Oba Chandler the serial killer who was mentioned on this board because he was captured by LE who posted his handwriting on billboards.

Well a 1990 cold case murder of a South Florida woman was just linked to Chandler through his DNA. It wasn't soon enough that he was given the needle in 2011..

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 6, 2014 16:22:22 GMT danmiami said:

Also Oba Chandler the serial killer who was mentioned on this board because he was captured by LE who posted his handwriting on billboards.

Well a 1990 cold case murder of a South Florida woman was just linked to Chandler through his DNA. It wasn't soon enough that he was given the needle in 2011..

Hi Dan, To first respond to your post above this quoted post. 
BUNDY:
 besides this case I have never really delved into true crime and know just the surface of facts regarding The Zodiac, Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes and the rest of the evil loosers but I remembered that Bundy was not raised by his real mother, and his sister was his mother and his grandfather was probably his father. I looked it up and here is what it said on Wikipedia:

Bundy was born Theodore Robert Cowell at the Elizabeth Lund Home For Unwed Mothers (now the Lund Family Center[7]) in Burlington, Vermont on November 24, 1946 to Eleanor Louise Cowell (known for most of her life as Louise). The identity of his father has never been determined with certainty. His birth certificate assigns paternity to a salesman and Air Force veteran named Lloyd Marshall,[8] but Louise later claimed that she had been seduced by "a sailor"[9] whose name may have been Jack Worthington.[10][11][12] (Years later, investigators would find no record of anyone by that name in Navy or Merchant Marine archives.[12]) Some family members expressed suspicions that the father might actually have been Louise's own violent, abusive father, Samuel Cowell,[10] although no material evidence has ever been cited to support or refute this.[13]

For the first three years of his life Bundy lived in the Philadelphia home of his maternal grandparents, Samuel and Eleanor Cowell, who raised him as their son to avoid the social stigma that accompanied illegitimate birth at the time. Family, friends, and even young Ted were told that his grandparents were his parents and that his mother was his older sister. Eventually he discovered the truth, but how and when is not clear. He told his girlfriend that a cousin showed him a copy of his birth certificate after calling him a "bastard",[14] but he told biographers Stephen Michaud and Hugh Aynesworth that he found the certificate himself.[15] Biographer and true crime writer Ann Rule, who knew Bundy personally, believes that he tracked down his original birth record in Vermont in 1969.[16] Bundy expressed a lifelong resentment toward his mother for lying about his true parentage and leaving him to discover it for himself.[17]

While Bundy spoke warmly of his grandparents in some interviews,[18] and told Ann Rule that he "identified with", "respected", and "clung to" his grandfather,[19] he and other family members told attorneys in 1987 that Samuel Cowell was a tyrannical bully and a bigot who hated blacks, Italians, Catholics, and Jews, beat his wife and the family dog, and swung neighborhood cats by their tails. He once threw Louise's younger sister Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping.[11] He sometimes spoke aloud to unseen presences,[20] and at least once he flew into a violent rage when the question of Ted's paternity was raised.[11] Bundy described his grandmother as a timid and obedient woman who periodically underwent electroconvulsive therapy for depression[20] and feared leaving their house toward the end of her life.[21] Ted occasionally exhibited disturbing behavior, even at that early age. Julia recalled awakening one day from a nap to find herself surrounded by knives from the Cowell kitchen; her three-year-old nephew was standing by the bed, smiling.[22

 I wonder if Bundy inherited some evil gene. He loved that sicko grandfather.  EAR, in his poem quotes Son of Sam and Jessee James, perhaps he didn't mention Bundy because it didn't rhyme but I think you are right that he was influenced by other serial killers.  I'll wager he read true crime and other sick things.  That fireplace log connection is really interesting.

Here is something very interesting I looked up regarding Prof. James Fallon (who is actually involved in the EAR/ONS case)  
From Wikipedia:
James H. Fallon (born 1947) is an American neuroscientist. He is professor of psychiatry and human behavior and emeritus professor of anatomy and neurobiology in the School of Medicine at the University of California, Irvine. His research interests include adult stem cells, chemical neuroanatomy and circuitry, higher brain functions, and brain imaging.

Fallon, who himself has the neurological and genetic correlates of psychopathy,[1] has been categorized as a "pro-social psychopath", an assessment with which he concurs. In October 2013 his book, The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist's Personal Journey into the Dark Side of the Brain, was released by Current (acquired by Penguin).[2]


Fallon prominently featured in the BBC production Are You Good or Evil?,[1] where he is revealed to have discovered that he, himself, has the neurological and genetic correlates of psychopathy. Fallon stated that he is not concerned by the findings and believes that his positive experiences in childhood negated any potential genetic vulnerabilities to violence and emotional issues.

But I don't want to give criminals any excuse. Bundy was so depraved, decapitating, having sex with the rotting bodies etc. BEYOND SICK. It is my opinion that no matter the abusive background of any criminal, any crime they decide to commit should be punished. No excuses.  Bundy deserved so much worse that what he got.

CHANDLER:

Oba Chandler, so interesting that he has been connected to another crime.  Do you think there are even more crimes he committed?  I would think there are.  He is the one that killed the mother and the two daughters right?  These people are such monsters.  It is an interesting thought that perhaps with Prof. Fallon's research these monsters can be identified by brain imaging at birth.  Then what?  This is a very thought provoking thought.  What if Hitler, Bundy, Chandler, EAR/ONS etc. could have been identified from birth.  THAT is a thought provoking idea with lots of pros and cons. 

I recall guessting or Port saying that funds for the Chandler billboard came from private funds (from the family?) and not from the taxpayers.  That billboard was a great idea. 

[Deleted]

I don't think a billboard with the EAR handwriting from the papers will help and that this situation is significantly different from the Oba Chandler case in that regard. I think they were a taunt and he most likely tried to disguise his handwriting while doing them. It's also 36 years later and a person's handwriting changes over that time enough that it may not be recognized as coming from someone currently used to their loved one's or friend's writing compared to when they were much younger. If they had been released soon after they were found, it may have made a difference even if the writing was disguised.

[dengas]

How about the map? Do you think having it blasted in newspapers, not billboards because it would look too squirrelly, would be a good idea?

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 20:28:41 GMT dengas said:

How about the map? Do you think having it blasted in newspapers, not billboards because it would look too squirrelly, would be a good idea?

Nope, don't think blasting the map in newspapers would help, either.

[Deleted]

I think if VR or someone else knew about Oscar Clifton's past crime and especially how stupidly he went about it, they may have used it to frame him for Donna's murder. There were some good suspects for the Visalia crimes that were from the Exeter area and were suspected of abductions and rapes.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 6, 2014 18:24:32 GMT @privatecitizen said:

I don't think a billboard with the EAR handwriting from the papers will help and that this situation is significantly different from the Oba Chandler case in that regard. I think they were a taunt and he most likely tried to disguise his handwriting while doing them. It's also 36 years later and a person's handwriting changes over that time enough that it may not be recognized as coming from someone currently used to their loved one's or friend's writing compared to when they were much younger. If they had been released soon after they were found, it may have made a difference even if the writing was disguised.

You are probably right about too much time passing however, I can identify certain very significant and unique ways he wrote.  his g's!, and also the strange way he connected some letters making n's look like m's and some m's having an extra hump due to an inappropriate way of connecting the previous letter to the n or m, his u's are distinctive etc. (look at the m in Punishment) "Come from Smelling makes no sense, but "come from Snelling" does and there we have the n/m situation again and I think it is the odd way he connected his words.  Very telling. 

Actually, the more I think about it, I'm  thinking his handwriting could still identify him, but it would have to be seen by someone that knows him/has dealt with him as in the Oba Chandler case.   In Santa Barbara/Goleta very few people know about him, not even LE officers.  That is a major problem as I see it.  I am going to try to see if Michelle McNamara could have her article put in the SBNewsPress.  I feel the handwriting should be played up big time.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Sept 6, 2014 20:28:41 GMT dengas said:

How about the map? Do you think having it blasted in newspapers, not billboards because it would look too squirrelly, would be a good idea?

I think it is an excellent idea.  All of these things help.  It can't hurt.  We just need that right person to come forward. 

[geko]

Imo, the map is much more 'personal'.

[dengas]

I am pretty sure (not 100 percent, however) that the map, etc., will be included in the new book.

[geko]

Oh dear

[Deleted]

If someone writes things while trying to masquerade what their intent is and instead they're meant to send a message, then it doesn't help much to look at how they make certain letters or things like that. You would need a professional analyst to see how it compares to their usual handwriting and they disagree with each other a lot, too. Any of us here could pretend to write things and make them appear to be something else. Imo, we need to keep in mind that if they are EAR papers (I think they are) then they came from a pathological liar that was intent on deceiving and intent on toying with LE.

[geko]

Sept 6, 2014 21:04:24 GMT @privatecitizen said:

If someone writes things while trying to masquerade what their intent is and instead they're meant to send a message, then it doesn't help much to look at how they make certain letters or things like that. You would need a professional analyst to see how it compares to their usual handwriting and they disagree with each other a lot, too. Any of us here could pretend to write things and make them appear to be something else. Imo, we need to keep in mind that if they are EAR papers (I think they are) then they came from a pathological liar that was intent on deceiving and intent on toying with LE.

PC. I agree to a point. Sometimes we are cursed by technology but other times we are blessed, what wasn't shared 30-40 years ago we can now find on the net as recorded information. Nobody would ever know how technology would advance, sometimes it's a gift.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 21:14:28 GMT geko said:

Sept 6, 2014 21:04:24 GMT @privatecitizen said:

If someone writes things while trying to masquerade what their intent is and instead they're meant to send a message, then it doesn't help much to look at how they make certain letters or things like that. You would need a professional analyst to see how it compares to their usual handwriting and they disagree with each other a lot, too. Any of us here could pretend to write things and make them appear to be something else. Imo, we need to keep in mind that if they are EAR papers (I think they are) then they came from a pathological liar that was intent on deceiving and intent on toying with LE.

PC. I agree to a point. Sometimes we are cursed by technology but other times we are blessed, what wasn't shared 30-40 years ago we can now find on the net as recorded information. Nobody would ever know how technology would advance, sometimes it's a gift.

Agree with you. I don't think EAR/ONS anticipated just how much info would be so widely available years later.