What was so special about Manuela?

[woofytreats]

I would possibly add that the rarity of a staged robbery without the perpetrator having some connection with the victim is just one way of looking at it. If EAR/ONS is concerned about linkage to the other ONS crimes, he'd be much more likely to stage the scene independent of any interaction with Manuela or David. That's not to say that he couldn't have been aware of David being in hospital or Manuela being alone that night. If he lived in Irvine at the time, I wonder how that would change the probability of a staged crime scene even if he had no direct contact with them.

The removal of the answering machine tape could be a red herring or there could be something there that occurred when David was in the hospital. If I remember correctly, David mentioned that they had received a couple "unusual" calls - one that sounded like an old African-American man. I've always thought of the possibility of a "gonna kill you"-style call being received and recorded while David was in the hospital and Manuela was the only one who ever knew about it, thinking it was just a sick prank. Again, that could be considered removing an item that might create linkage as easily as creating "busy work" for LE if it never occurred.

Given that these murders occurred over stretches of time across geographic areas, that might even lend credence to the possibility that he'd stage the scene if he felt comfortable and / or had the time to do so. If Greg Sanchez landed some good punches, for example, EAR/ONS would be less likely to spend time manipulating the scene. This, combined with the fact that he'd probably be suspected anyway versus any obvious ONS connection with the first Irvine crime and the possibility that EAR/ONS lived nearby.

[outcat]

What was the timeline for the attacks before and the date of Manuela's? And how long was David in the hospital for (and now that I am thinking about it, for what? ... ) I think with the fact him being absent ear/ons felt more "reign" of the house. I believe he felt very powerful. It's sickening to think about in too much detail.

I personally believe Janelle's location not having anything to do with Manuela's murder (aside from ear/ons having been the killer). I would think the positioning of the body/cleaning could be to draw attention away from himself or to possibly frame David. The less he made it look like himself, the better. I am sure there were voice messages left on the tape as he probably left some and did not want to tip off law enforcement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but LE didn't make the connections right away, that ONS was EAR? I think I remember reading that somewhere, so it could be that a woman alone would be a connecting element between the two, so if anyone could clear that up for me!

[albion]

This is the best quick reference for the crimes. I believe Arch and Port put together a detailed timeline for the Sac crimes which includes much more detail concerning the newspaper articles and press releases. If I could just remember where the link is on the board???

www.ear-ons.com/crimes.html

[Deleted]

Nov 26, 2015 0:32:35 GMT outcat said:

What was the timeline for the attacks before and the date of Manuela's? And how long was David in the hospital for (and now that I am thinking about it, for what? ... ) I think with the fact him being absent ear/ons felt more "reign" of the house. I believe he felt very powerful. It's sickening to think about in too much detail.

I personally believe Janelle's location not having anything to do with Manuela's murder (aside from ear/ons having been the killer). I would think the positioning of the body/cleaning could be to draw attention away from himself or to possibly frame David. The less he made it look like himself, the better. I am sure there were voice messages left on the tape as he probably left some and did not want to tip off law enforcement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but LE didn't make the connections right away, that ONS was EAR? I think I remember reading that somewhere, so it could be that a woman alone would be a connecting element between the two, so if anyone could clear that up for me!

Sorry but out of the literally thousands upon thousands of locations-victims which EAR could have chosen, it could not have been coincidental that he returned to a location that was only a minute or two from Manuela. Therefore, I think this theory is as good as any: by killing Janelle he ensured no one would ever again doubt that he was the perpetrator of Manuela.  This would reinforce his madness that the women he killed would forever be his.  Accordingly it must have gnawed away at EAR that prior to 1986 another individual, namely David had been the prime suspect.

[outcat]

Nov 26, 2015 4:18:35 GMT saund10295 said:

Nov 26, 2015 0:32:35 GMT outcat said:

What was the timeline for the attacks before and the date of Manuela's? And how long was David in the hospital for (and now that I am thinking about it, for what? ... ) I think with the fact him being absent ear/ons felt more "reign" of the house. I believe he felt very powerful. It's sickening to think about in too much detail.

I personally believe Janelle's location not having anything to do with Manuela's murder (aside from ear/ons having been the killer). I would think the positioning of the body/cleaning could be to draw attention away from himself or to possibly frame David. The less he made it look like himself, the better. I am sure there were voice messages left on the tape as he probably left some and did not want to tip off law enforcement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but LE didn't make the connections right away, that ONS was EAR? I think I remember reading that somewhere, so it could be that a woman alone would be a connecting element between the two, so if anyone could clear that up for me!

Sorry but out of the literally thousands upon thousands of locations-victims which EAR could have chosen, it could not have been coincidental that he returned to a location that was only a minute or two from Manuela. Therefore, I think this theory is as good as any: by killing Janelle he ensured no one would ever again doubt that he was the perpetrator of Manuela.  This would reinforce his madness that the women he killed would forever be his.  Accordingly it must have gnawed away at EAR that prior to 1986 another individual, namely David had been the prime suspect.

Mmm.. I'm not not convinced -- not yet, anyway. There could be several explanations on why. This wasn't the first attack where two separate incidents happened in close proximity of location. I think with the gap between his last victim and Janelle is a mystery -- as in why the 5 yr gap? But I think these are all isolated incidents. He could have lived in the area or perhaps trying to seek the thrill again returned to a familiar scene. It could be the neighborhood layout made for easy cover and stalking. 

I guess I should say that I don't know if they are related -- for all we know they could be. It's all a mystery and we're always left with with more questions and speculation. I do agree with your second statement that perhaps they are linked in which he wanted the "glory" (for a serious lack of a better word) of Manuela's murder to be on him, to take claim that he did that and not her husband. But otherwise, I think that would be the only two things to link them together. I just don't think he had any special connection or preference with Manuela. 

[rocker]

Nov 26, 2015 2:34:02 GMT albion said:

This is the best quick reference for the crimes. I believe Arch and Port put together a detailed timeline for the Sac crimes which includes much more detail concerning the newspaper articles and press releases. If I could just remember where the link is on the board???

www.ear-ons.com/crimes.html

link

Direct link

[zforce]

Nov 25, 2015 18:04:33 GMT woofytreats said:

I would possibly add that the rarity of a staged robbery without the perpetrator having some connection with the victim is just one way of looking at it. If EAR/ONS is concerned about linkage to the other ONS crimes, he'd be much more likely to stage the scene independent of any interaction with Manuela or David. That's not to say that he couldn't have been aware of David being in hospital or Manuela being alone that night. If he lived in Irvine at the time, I wonder how that would change the probability of a staged crime scene even if he had no direct contact with them.

The removal of the answering machine tape could be a red herring or there could be something there that occurred when David was in the hospital. If I remember correctly, David mentioned that they had received a couple "unusual" calls - one that sounded like an old African-American man. I've always thought of the possibility of a "gonna kill you"-style call being received and recorded while David was in the hospital and Manuela was the only one who ever knew about it, thinking it was just a sick prank. Again, that could be considered removing an item that might create linkage as easily as creating "busy work" for LE if it never occurred.

Given that these murders occurred over stretches of time across geographic areas, that might even lend credence to the possibility that he'd stage the scene if he felt comfortable and / or had the time to do so. If Greg Sanchez landed some good punches, for example, EAR/ONS would be less likely to spend time manipulating the scene. This, combined with the fact that he'd probably be suspected anyway versus any obvious ONS connection with the first Irvine crime and the possibility that EAR/ONS lived nearby.

I think everything you said here pretty much sums up the alternative theory, which is why I started looking at other "solved" cases for comparison of the results in those cases. Sure he could have been diabolical, but from a probability standpoint I haven't been able to find a "solved" case where that has occurred. Not saying those cases aren't out there, I just haven't found an example of a random offender staging a robbery for the sake of staging a robbery or taking specific items as "red herrings".

[danmiami]

You know point of reference. I remember a while back people were asking for a better picture of Manuela. In the Orange County Register there is a picture of her wearing headphones and looks like sunglasses. I know newspapers made mistake and mismatches all the time,

Can anyone verify if this is indeed Manuela?? Just search "Original Night Stalker" on the site and you will find it. Her husband David is no longer with us unfortunately so may be hard to verify.

[albion]

Dan, can you post a link to the page with the picture in question?

I wish we had more info about the bank where she worked. There was definitely some criminal activity going on at some of the banks and savings and loans in Irvine. I was wondering if she might have had any reason to check the cash deposit over $10,000 disclosures. I am under the impression that she worked for one of the larger banks.

For those who might be unaware of the trials of Griselda Blanco, you might want to watch Cocaine Cowboys 2. The connection is this. Janelle went to University High. Kenji Gallo went to University High. Kenji was a drug mule, dealer, doer of criminal deeds, and friend of the alleged marine rapist's family. And he was an associate of Griselda Blanco. He also became an informer for the FBI. In his book he describes all manner of questionable people, including the character he describes as Officer Jerry, a corrupt Irvine Policeman.

Griselda Blanco was able to plea bargain 99 charges of murder down to 6 years. I would bet good money that this result was due to a conspiracy. How did Griselda Blanco end up in Irvine? And how did Kenji Gallo end up delivering cocaine to the crips in South Central? He recounts one experience where he was stopped by two Newport PD officers, they opened the trunk, looked at the kilos of cocaine, closed the trunk, and then sent him on his way.

[woofytreats]

Nov 26, 2015 9:44:39 GMT zforce said:

Nov 25, 2015 18:04:33 GMT woofytreats said:

I would possibly add that the rarity of a staged robbery without the perpetrator having some connection with the victim is just one way of looking at it. If EAR/ONS is concerned about linkage to the other ONS crimes, he'd be much more likely to stage the scene independent of any interaction with Manuela or David. That's not to say that he couldn't have been aware of David being in hospital or Manuela being alone that night. If he lived in Irvine at the time, I wonder how that would change the probability of a staged crime scene even if he had no direct contact with them.

The removal of the answering machine tape could be a red herring or there could be something there that occurred when David was in the hospital. If I remember correctly, David mentioned that they had received a couple "unusual" calls - one that sounded like an old African-American man. I've always thought of the possibility of a "gonna kill you"-style call being received and recorded while David was in the hospital and Manuela was the only one who ever knew about it, thinking it was just a sick prank. Again, that could be considered removing an item that might create linkage as easily as creating "busy work" for LE if it never occurred.

Given that these murders occurred over stretches of time across geographic areas, that might even lend credence to the possibility that he'd stage the scene if he felt comfortable and / or had the time to do so. If Greg Sanchez landed some good punches, for example, EAR/ONS would be less likely to spend time manipulating the scene. This, combined with the fact that he'd probably be suspected anyway versus any obvious ONS connection with the first Irvine crime and the possibility that EAR/ONS lived nearby.

I think everything you said here pretty much sums up the alternative theory, which is why I started looking at other "solved" cases for comparison of the results in those cases. Sure he could have been diabolical, but from a probability standpoint I haven't been able to find a "solved" case where that has occurred. Not saying those cases aren't out there, I just haven't found an example of a random offender staging a robbery for the sake of staging a robbery or taking specific items as "red herrings".

Sure, but I guess where I might part ways is attributing a probability to something where there's the possibility it occurred because of a particular opportunity and he determined he had the run of the house. How many ONS crimes can be considered "staged" to the degree of the Witthuhn murder?? I guess in my mind I have a hard time extrapolating data like this when this seems more of a "one off" type scenario involving someone who's M.O. might differ from the average perpetrator of this type of crime. Orange County LE said that there were indications that "he cared for her" in his actions which apparently included cleaning up and placing her back in the sleeping bag. Rightly or wrongly, I view it as an opportunity where he had the time and comfort level to do these actions....unlike most of the other ONS murders...and he was cognizant of anything that might link him to his other crimes. It seems to me that the "robbery gone bad" staging scenario is relatively common if someone has the time...independent of having any prior interaction with the victim or not. I may be wrong.

It would definitely be interesting to see a large sample of data indicating that the majority of staged murder scenes involved a killer who had some interaction / connection with the victim. In this case though, I'm still skeptical that it would be applicable to our friend. As always, it might beg the question that with LE's apparent fixation with David, how many potential connections were overlooked or dismissed because of it...and might've been vague enough to be lost to time??

[sammyt]

Nov 26, 2015 17:46:11 GMT albion said:

Dan, can you post a link to the page with the picture in question?

I wish we had more info about the bank where she worked. There was definitely some criminal activity going on at some of the banks and savings and loans in Irvine. I was wondering if she might have had any reason to check the cash deposit over $10,000 disclosures. I am under the impression that she worked for one of the larger banks.

For those who might be unaware of the trials of Griselda Blanco, you might want to watch Cocaine Cowboys 2. The connection is this. Janelle went to University High. Kenji Gallo went to University High. Kenji was a drug mule, dealer, doer of criminal deeds, and friend of the alleged marine rapist's family. And he was an associate of Griselda Blanco. He also became an informer for the FBI. In his book he describes all manner of questionable people, including the character he describes as Officer Jerry, a corrupt Irvine Policeman.

Griselda Blanco was able to plea bargain 99 charges of murder down to 6 years. I would bet good money that this result was due to a conspiracy. How did Griselda Blanco end up in Irvine? And how did Kenji Gallo end up delivering cocaine to the crips in South Central? He recounts one experience where he was stopped by two Newport PD officers, they opened the trunk, looked at the kilos of cocaine, closed the trunk, and then sent him on his way.

The Janelle/Kenji link is interesting, and should be looked at more closely IMO.

[rocker]

Nov 26, 2015 17:46:11 GMT albion said:

Dan, can you post a link to the page with the picture in question?

I wish we had more info about the bank where she worked. There was definitely some criminal activity going on at some of the banks and savings and loans in Irvine. I was wondering if she might have had any reason to check the cash deposit over $10,000 disclosures. I am under the impression that she worked for one of the larger banks.

For those who might be unaware of the trials of Griselda Blanco, you might want to watch Cocaine Cowboys 2. The connection is this. Janelle went to University High. Kenji Gallo went to University High. Kenji was a drug mule, dealer, doer of criminal deeds, and friend of the alleged marine rapist's family. And he was an associate of Griselda Blanco. He also became an informer for the FBI. In his book he describes all manner of questionable people, including the character he describes as Officer Jerry, a corrupt Irvine Policeman.

Griselda Blanco was able to plea bargain 99 charges of murder down to 6 years. I would bet good money that this result was due to a conspiracy. How did Griselda Blanco end up in Irvine? And how did Kenji Gallo end up delivering cocaine to the crips in South Central? He recounts one experience where he was stopped by two Newport PD officers, they opened the trunk, looked at the kilos of cocaine, closed the trunk, and then sent him on his way.

Albion, the picture in question is #6 of the slideshow.

link

[zforce]

Nov 26, 2015 19:55:20 GMT woofytreats said:

Nov 26, 2015 9:44:39 GMT zforce said:

I think everything you said here pretty much sums up the alternative theory, which is why I started looking at other "solved" cases for comparison of the results in those cases. Sure he could have been diabolical, but from a probability standpoint I haven't been able to find a "solved" case where that has occurred. Not saying those cases aren't out there, I just haven't found an example of a random offender staging a robbery for the sake of staging a robbery or taking specific items as "red herrings".

Sure, but I guess where I might part ways is attributing a probability to something where there's the possibility it occurred because of a particular opportunity and he determined he had the run of the house. How many ONS crimes can be considered "staged" to the degree of the Witthuhn murder?? I guess in my mind I have a hard time extrapolating data like this when this seems more of a "one off" type scenario involving someone who's M.O. might differ from the average perpetrator of this type of crime. Orange County LE said that there were indications that "he cared for her" in his actions which apparently included cleaning up and placing her back in the sleeping bag. Rightly or wrongly, I view it as an opportunity where he had the time and comfort level to do these actions....unlike most of the other ONS murders...and he was cognizant of anything that might link him to his other crimes. It seems to me that the "robbery gone bad" staging scenario is relatively common if someone has the time...independent of having any prior interaction with the victim or not. I may be wrong.

It would definitely be interesting to see a large sample of data indicating that the majority of staged murder scenes involved a killer who had some interaction / connection with the victim. In this case though, I'm still skeptical that it would be applicable to our friend. As always, it might beg the question that with LE's apparent fixation with David, how many potential connections were overlooked or dismissed because of it...and might've been vague enough to be lost to time??

And it wasn't even the first time murder for hire was strongly looked at. The Smith case almost went to trial on the jilted business partner angle. Truthfully, the data still leaves murder for hire as a potential scenario. It can't be 100% ruled out.

In the Witthuhn case, the only items removed from the crime scene were items directly related to the crime....so it stands to reason the answering machine tape would be of equal or greater value to him rather than just a red herring.

The other thing I've also been thinking a lot about is the tighter age range some of the more public LE in the case have started to put him....late teens to early twenties. So maybe there's an interview in the Witthuhn police reports that mentions someone in the neighborhood who matches the tighter description, which wouldn't have necessarily been followed up on or even ignored altogether in lieu of the initial focus on David. I'd be real curious about some of the seemingly incidental statements given by neighbors in the police report regarding other people seen in the neighborhood.

[outcat]

Nov 26, 2015 17:46:11 GMT albion said:

Dan, can you post a link to the page with the picture in question?

I wish we had more info about the bank where she worked. There was definitely some criminal activity going on at some of the banks and savings and loans in Irvine. I was wondering if she might have had any reason to check the cash deposit over $10,000 disclosures. I am under the impression that she worked for one of the larger banks.

For those who might be unaware of the trials of Griselda Blanco, you might want to watch Cocaine Cowboys 2. The connection is this. Janelle went to University High. Kenji Gallo went to University High. Kenji was a drug mule, dealer, doer of criminal deeds, and friend of the alleged marine rapist's family. And he was an associate of Griselda Blanco. He also became an informer for the FBI. In his book he describes all manner of questionable people, including the character he describes as Officer Jerry, a corrupt Irvine Policeman.

Griselda Blanco was able to plea bargain 99 charges of murder down to 6 years. I would bet good money that this result was due to a conspiracy. How did Griselda Blanco end up in Irvine? And how did Kenji Gallo end up delivering cocaine to the crips in South Central? He recounts one experience where he was stopped by two Newport PD officers, they opened the trunk, looked at the kilos of cocaine, closed the trunk, and then sent him on his way.

Albion, I believe it is policy of the IRS to check all cash deposits over $10,000. So if any really suspicious activity was going on, the IRS would probalby catch on quick (unless there is a really good paper trail -- as it obviously does happen! 

[danmiami]

Nov 26, 2015 20:54:36 GMT rocker said:

Nov 26, 2015 17:46:11 GMT albion said:

Dan, can you post a link to the page with the picture in question?

I wish we had more info about the bank where she worked. There was definitely some criminal activity going on at some of the banks and savings and loans in Irvine. I was wondering if she might have had any reason to check the cash deposit over $10,000 disclosures. I am under the impression that she worked for one of the larger banks.

For those who might be unaware of the trials of Griselda Blanco, you might want to watch Cocaine Cowboys 2. The connection is this. Janelle went to University High. Kenji Gallo went to University High. Kenji was a drug mule, dealer, doer of criminal deeds, and friend of the alleged marine rapist's family. And he was an associate of Griselda Blanco. He also became an informer for the FBI. In his book he describes all manner of questionable people, including the character he describes as Officer Jerry, a corrupt Irvine Policeman.

Griselda Blanco was able to plea bargain 99 charges of murder down to 6 years. I would bet good money that this result was due to a conspiracy. How did Griselda Blanco end up in Irvine? And how did Kenji Gallo end up delivering cocaine to the crips in South Central? He recounts one experience where he was stopped by two Newport PD officers, they opened the trunk, looked at the kilos of cocaine, closed the trunk, and then sent him on his way.

Albion, the picture in question is #6 of the slideshow.

link

Correct. I am curious if this can be confirmed to be in fact Manuela. I know pictures are are posted in error. Just want to know if this picture is legit?