Jennifer Armour November 24, 1974

[winters]

Jun 5, 2018 20:33:17 GMT jackietreehorn said:

I don't know whether JJD killed Richmond. But I think her murder should be looked at with much more scrutiny now that we know a serial killer lived in Exeter when she was killed. I doubt TCSO wants that fresh look to take place because it would mean serious financial repercussions to the county if their neglect in Clifton's case was exposed as intentional.

I agree about Richmond being looked at and I *especially* think that Armour should be looked at. Doing what I can for the Armour case (and by extension, the Richmond case) is one of the big items on my to-do list, whether it be actual research/work on it or simply advocacy. 

I'd like to hear input/explanation, actually, about some stuff I've heard about TCSO on the boards lately. I've seen a couple folks allude to the Sheriff's office being intentionally deceptive or uncooperative in modern times. I'm trying to find some concrete examples of this, or any actions or interactions that exemplify this behavior. In short, I'd like to know what I'm dealing with. I and the folks that I research with feel that we could be of assistance in getting some of the gears turning in this situation due to relationships we've forged with members of the press, Law Enforcement, etc, and I feel that an understanding of some of the issues that folks have faced could help me.

If you don't want to name names, that's fine -- PM me! I'm particularly interested in what englebergz has to say, since he/she's been one of the more outspoken critics. 

My process will be to get a feel for the agencies involved, get concrete information on what's been done in the Armour case in the past and in modern times, and figure out what can be done to be productive going forward (whether that be unpack the case ourselves, or help convince investigators to spend resources). We're at a rare juncture right now where the JJD case is in the hands of multiple jurisdictions, including the FBI, and this is our best shot at getting resources applied to cases like Jennifer Armour (and by extension, Donna Richmond, if there's enough smoke to indicate JJD involvement in Armour). 

[jackietreehorn]

Jun 6, 2018 0:37:22 GMT winters said:

Jun 5, 2018 20:33:17 GMT jackietreehorn said:

I don't know whether JJD killed Richmond. But I think her murder should be looked at with much more scrutiny now that we know a serial killer lived in Exeter when she was killed. I doubt TCSO wants that fresh look to take place because it would mean serious financial repercussions to the county if their neglect in Clifton's case was exposed as intentional.

I'd like to hear input/explanation, actually, about some stuff I've heard about TCSO on the boards lately. I've seen a couple folks allude to the Sheriff's office being intentionally deceptive or uncooperative in modern times. I'm trying to find some concrete examples of this, or any actions or interactions that exemplify this behavior. In short, I'd like to know what I'm dealing with. I and the folks that I research with feel that we could be of assistance in getting some of the gears turning in this situation due to relationships we've forged with members of the press, Law Enforcement, etc, and I feel that an understanding of some of the issues that folks have faced could help me.

Unfortunately, I can't claim to be an expert. The little I know about TCSO's treatment of Clifton comes from listening to the 12-26-75 podcast. It sounds as though the sheriffs found the receipt book at the site of Donna's bike and ran with the Clifton theory to the exclusion of all other possibilities. Listening to the podcast, I get the impression that TCSO really pressured witnesses to implicate Clifton and attempted to suppress evidence that could have introduced reasonable doubt into his case.

I was always interested in reading about the VR but didn't really know anything about Armour and Richmond until after JJD was arrested. As you pointed out earlier (if I may be allowed to paraphrase), we have a pretty good feel for the 12 murders generally attributed to GSK but the mysteries that remain are related any murders that he committed that we don't know about. The way that he calmly gunned Claude Snelling down leads me to have no doubts that he had killed before that. To me, that means that Eva Davidson Taylor, Jennifer Armour, and Donna Jo Richmond (though she was after Snelling) need to be eyed carefully. I also have a pit-of-my-stomach hunch about Susan Jacobson because she disappeared from a Raley's so near to JJD's house.

I think it's a shame that so few people are over here on the VR side of this site talking about what his time in Exeter entailed. Armour and Richmond deserve a better effort and an honest self-inspection by TCSO. If there are other victims, they deserve a better effort by LE, too. Good for you for focusing in on this side of things, Winters.

[beaumontlivingstone]

Jun 6, 2018 1:03:35 GMT jackietreehorn said:

Jun 6, 2018 0:37:22 GMT winters said:

I'd like to hear input/explanation, actually, about some stuff I've heard about TCSO on the boards lately. I've seen a couple folks allude to the Sheriff's office being intentionally deceptive or uncooperative in modern times. I'm trying to find some concrete examples of this, or any actions or interactions that exemplify this behavior. In short, I'd like to know what I'm dealing with. I and the folks that I research with feel that we could be of assistance in getting some of the gears turning in this situation due to relationships we've forged with members of the press, Law Enforcement, etc, and I feel that an understanding of some of the issues that folks have faced could help me.

Unfortunately, I can't claim to be an expert. The little I know about TCSO's treatment of Clifton comes from listening to the 12-26-75 podcast. It sounds as though the sheriffs found the receipt book at the site of Donna's bike and ran with the Clifton theory to the exclusion of all other possibilities. Listening to the podcast, I get the impression that TCSO really pressured witnesses to implicate Clifton and attempted to suppress evidence that could have introduced reasonable doubt into his case.

I was always interested in reading about the VR but didn't really know anything about Armour and Richmond until after JJD was arrested. As you pointed out earlier (if I may be allowed to paraphrase), we have a pretty good feel for the 12 murders generally attributed to GSK but the mysteries that remain are related any murders that he committed that we don't know about. The way that he calmly gunned Claude Snelling down leads me to have no doubts that he had killed before that. To me, that means that Eva Davison Taylor, Jennifer Armour, and Donna Jo Richmond (though she was after Snelling) need to be eyed carefully. I also have a pit-of-my-stomach hunch about Susan Jacobson because she disappeared from a Raley's so near to JJD's house.

I think it's a shame that so few people are over here on the VR side of this site talking about what his time in Exeter entailed. Armour and Richmond deserve a better effort and an honest self-inspection by TCSO. If there are other victims, they deserve a better effort by LE, too. Good for you for focusing in on this side of things, Winters.

Well said JackieT. I second that. 

It would be excellent if Winters took a closer look at Jennifer Armour and Donna Jo Richmond. It is mind blowing that J. Armour’s death was written off to solo skinny dipping in November. Frankly, it would be laughable if it was not so serious. 

I think that Armour/Richmond has failed to gain traction because 12-26-75 has been critical of Paul Holes. 

Also, the Dorothy Jane Scott case gives me the creeps. I agree that Eva Davidson Taylor’s death should be looked at closely (was there a palm print left at the scene?) Maybe the Granite Bay deaths in 91/93 aswell?

Logically, it seems to me that crimes or disappearances that took place where GSK had a connection should be priority. 

Do we we know whether JJD maintained a relationship with relatives in New York State? A couple of hitchhikers went missing in or around Watkins Glen in 1973 on their way to The Summer Jam festival...

[jackietreehorn]

Jun 6, 2018 6:12:40 GMT beaumontlivingstone said:

Well said JackieT. I second that. 

It would be excellent if Winters took a closer look at Jennifer Armour and Donna Jo Richmond. It is mind blowing that J. Armour’s death was written off to solo skinny dipping in November. Frankly, it would be laughable if it was not so serious. 

I think that Armour/Richmond has failed to gain traction because 12-26-75 has been critical of Paul Holes. 

Also, the Dorothy Jane Scott case gives me the creeps. I agree that Eva Davidson Taylor’s death should be looked at closely (was there a palm print left at the scene?) Maybe the Granite Bay deaths in 91/93 aswell?

Logically, it seems to me that crimes or disappearances that took place where GSK had a connection should be priority. 

Do we we know whether JJD maintained a relationship with relatives in New York State? A couple of hitchhikers went missing in or around Watkins Glen in 1973 on their way to The Summer Jam festival...

The Granite Bay deaths are definitely worth a look. Personally, I seriously doubt that JJD stopped cold in 1986. Especially considering the anger with which he killed Janelle Cruz. That anger tells me he was ramping up, not down.

The thing that strikes me about GSK is how particular he was about managing his behavior in each of his locations. There is something different about what he does in Visalia compared to what he does in Sacramento. It seemed that he learned from his Visalia exploits that once he killed Snelling as VR, the hunt for him took a marked turn. He was careful to avoid killing as EAR in Sacramento. Obviously, he shot to kill in the interest of self-preservation. But once he killed the Maggiores, he knew he needed to branch out to new locations.

By the time he attacked in Southern California, it seems he had given up on ransacking / rape and just went to surveillance and killing. With the dawn of DNA collection and identification in the late 1980's, I imagine he may have intentionally changed his behavior again. At this point, I could see him moving toward stalking, kidnapping, and taking women somewhere to be killed but not found.

Based on that thinking, I feel it's more likely for him to have been involved in disappearance cases like Susan Jacobson and Dorothy Jane Scott than it is for him to have been involved in the Granite Bay deaths, where the bodies were meant to be found. However, I hope that the FBI is keeping all theories on the table (including Granite Bay) and trying to understand what else he may have done beyond the 12 murders that we already suspect him to have committed.

[englebergz]

[quote author="jackietreehorn" source="/post/198201/thread" timestamp="1528247015"

I think it's a shame that so few people are over here on the VR side of this site talking about what his time in Exeter entailed. Armour and Richmond deserve a better effort and an honest self-inspection by TCSO. If there are other victims, they deserve a better effort by LE, too. Good for you for focusing in on this side of things, Winters.

So few are talking about the Exeter side because so little is known, without the 12-26-75 podcast we'd hardly know a thing. Same goes for the Richmond and Armour murders, there is so little out there except what has been shared by the podcast and bits amd pieces from a few expert posters on here like Dengas, who I believe is a Tulare local.

I'd love to contribute to the project Winters has proposed but I must admit, like several others here, I'm really just a big fan of 12-26-75 and I'd only be able to add things I've learned through them. The 12-26-75 podcasters say they don't even have much as far as police files for Jennifer's case, so that source info will be difficult to come by.

[winters]

I'm not surprised that there's been no public movement on any of TCSO's JJD stuff -- LE has only had about six weeks to begin to look into any Visalia/Woodlake/Exeter connections. Hopefully something comes from their efforts that might shed light on the Armour case. Jennifer's body was found in the Visalia outskirts toward the Woodlake and Exeter neck of the woods so it's the County's case!

[jackietreehorn]

Jun 7, 2018 0:36:10 GMT winters said:

I'm not surprised that there's been no public movement on any of TCSO's JJD stuff -- LE has only had about six weeks to begin to look into any Visalia/Woodlake/Exeter connections. Hopefully something comes from their efforts that might shed light on the Armour case. Jennifer's body was found in the Visalia outskirts toward the Woodlake and Exeter neck of the woods so it's the County's case!

I agree with you. I'm sure TCSO is still in the early stages of trying to process what JJD's arrest means to them.

I have hope that even just one persistent detective with the county can help the Sheriff's office to open their minds to new ways of looking at the cases. Even their looking at Clifton more closely in the Armour case increases the odds that they might find a VR connection that could trigger a new look at Richmond. So while I don't like their initial premise, I still think there's merit. Like engelbergz, I think it sounds like there won't be much, if any, physical evidence on Armour's case. I find it fully ludicrous that they had the gall to propose that she diverged from going to the HS football game to go skinny dipping in a canal. Case closed. Easy peasy. No need to keep any evidence. 

[winters]

Jun 7, 2018 17:38:21 GMT jackietreehorn said:

I find it fully ludicrous that they had the gall to propose that she diverged from going to the HS football game to go skinny dipping in a canal. Case closed. Easy peasy. No need to keep any evidence. 

The way people talk about this lately, you'd think that it was TCSO's official stance on the matter. I'm starting to understand some of the derision that they've been dealing with! A lot of it seems unfair to me. The truth is that they zeroed in on the fact that she'd been murdered quite early and did perform an investigation. Anytime Sgt. Babcock referred to the girl drowning, he was talking about cause of death -- someone drowned her.

The initial media blurb didn't mention murder, but subsequent ones did. I'll post the initial article and then two subsequent ones from the months that followed, both of which mention that she was murdered:

[winters]

Jun 7, 2018 17:38:21 GMT jackietreehorn said:

Even their looking at Clifton more closely in the Armour case increases the odds that they might find a VR connection that could trigger a new look at Richmond. So while I don't like their initial premise, I still think there's merit.

Clifton seems like a logical starting point in the Armour case from the Sheriff's point of view -- they have a person of interest who was convicted of a 1965 rape attempt, failed an appeal in 1967 (link -- crime description included), failed an appeal in 1969 (link), then was convicted of the 1975 murder of a similarly aged girl that also failed parole and appeal attempts (link). From the Sheriff's point of view, a jury of Clifton's peers convicted him and the system never found any wiggle room in the case to budge on it, so even on the surface it's clear why they'd float him as a person of interest (link) in a crime that shares a few similarities. I don't think anyone can fault them for that line of thinking. Now there's DeAngelo in the mix, and it should add plenty of interest and fuel to the investigation.

There are obvious differences in the Armour and Richmond crimes, but one thing that's always stood out to me is the similarity regarding the locations of where the bodies were found. I'm not a statistician, but it really strikes me that two murders of similarly aged girls would occur in the same smallish county and the bodies would end up in the same general type of area/location. It seems, on the surface at least, to imply a connection. Again, I don't think anyone can fault Tulare County Sheriff's Office for asking for additional information about Clifton, given that he was convicted of one of those murders.

If a travesty of justice occurred and Clifton was indeed innocent of the Richmond murder, I feel that the best key to exoneration would be through the Armour case. Due to the nature of her death, I don't know how that could happen quickly -- evidence just doesn't survive for decades after drownings due to the conditions of the death. It'll be a long process. I was informed that some DNA testing was attempted on items found at the Richmond scene, but they were too degraded to generate a profile. That was at least fifteen years ago, so maybe modern testing on any remaining evidence will be conducted in light of DeAngelo's DNA being such a prominent factor in his arrest!

I think advocating for this is a noble cause, and we should look to work with the County and support them in these ideas and efforts! Even if there were issues with how things have been handled in the 1970s, everyone associated with any of that is either dead or retired.

[jackietreehorn]

Jun 7, 2018 18:04:21 GMT winters said:

Jun 7, 2018 17:38:21 GMT jackietreehorn said:

I find it fully ludicrous that they had the gall to propose that she diverged from going to the HS football game to go skinny dipping in a canal. Case closed. Easy peasy. No need to keep any evidence. 

The way people talk about this lately, you'd think that it was TCSO's official stance on the matter. I'm starting to understand some of the derision that they've been dealing with! A lot of it seems unfair to me. The truth is that they zeroed in on the fact that she'd been murdered quite early and did perform an investigation. Anytime Sgt. Babcock referred to the girl drowning, he was talking about cause of death -- someone drowned her.

The initial media blurb didn't mention murder, but subsequent ones did. I'll post the initial article and then two subsequent ones from the months that followed, both of which mention that she was murdered

Most of what I know is from the 12-26-75 podcasts and they definitely feel like they have a story to tell. Obviously, TCSO's investigation into Clifton as a suspect in the Armour case says they don't necessarily consider her death to be an accident.

You make a good point. I will refrain from making negative comments about current TCSO while they are taking a fresh look at the Armour case. I do trust that the folks at 12-26-75 are trying to make a good faith effort to uncover the truth. In that regard, it's been very enlightening to hear their reading / interpretation of trial testimony in the Richmond killing. The trial testimony alone paints a picture of a sloppy investigation that zeroed in on one suspect. I don't know if that means that Clifton didn't kill Richmond but it certainly causes me to look at his conviction with skepticism.

[englebergz]

People are angry because TCSO NEVER tried to tie Clifton to Armour's murder until the AFTER the investigators who produce the 12-26-75 came to them with all their info and research about Clifton relating to his questionable Richmond conviction. This attempt to finger Clifton for a second murder he likely didn't commit was a reactionary response to the material released in the podcast. Not to be rude, but this was thoroughly explained in a recent episode, so it makes me wonder if you have even listened to all the 12-26-75 episodes yourself Winters but I hope that is not the case.

[winters]

Jun 7, 2018 19:40:48 GMT englebergz said:

People are angry because TCSO NEVER tried to tie Clifton to Armour's murder until the AFTER the investigators who produce the 12-26-75 came to them with all their info and research about Clifton relating to his questionable Richmond conviction. This attempt to finger Clifton for a second murder he likely didn't commit was a reactionary response to the material released in the podcast. Not to be rude, but this was thoroughly explained in a recent episode, so it makes me wonder if you have even listened to all the 12-26-75 episodes yourself Winters but I hope that is not the case.

I don't agree with the assessment that LE would change the course of a murder investigation just to tee off podcasters.

[zebra]

I doubt very much that they are worried about the podcasters. More likely, they are worried about civil lawsuits.

I wonder if this one is still pending: www.visaliatimesdelta.com/story/news/local/2017/03/16/deputys-sexual-misconduct-leads-lawsuit-tulare-county/99275260/

I worked for a government institution for a long time and learned that the first instinct for everyone is to CYA.

Having said that, some individuals and entities are a lot more willing than others to revisit possible mistakes. And even if none of that is in play, there's a very strong presumption, as you noted, in favor of the regularity and reliability of prior convictions. It often takes a Herculean effort at any and every level to upset one of those apple carts, and I doubt that this is going to be an exception.

[winters]

Jun 7, 2018 22:28:25 GMT zebra said:

I doubt very much that they are worried about the podcasters. More likely, they are worried about civil lawsuits.

I wonder if this one is still pending: www.visaliatimesdelta.com/story/news/local/2017/03/16/deputys-sexual-misconduct-leads-lawsuit-tulare-county/99275260/

I worked for a government institution for a long time and learned that the first instinct for everyone is to CYA.

Having said that, some individuals and entities are a lot more willing than others to revisit possible mistakes. And even if none of that is in play, there's a very strong presumption, as you noted, in favor of the regularity and reliability of prior convictions. It often takes a Herculean effort at any and every level to upset one of those apple carts, and I doubt that this is going to be an exception.

You articulated that better than I did -- that's where I'm going with the info regarding prior appeal/parole denials and prior convictions. From the County's point of view, revisiting the Richmond conviction doesn't make "sense."

I think the way back to the Richmond crime is through Armour. TCSO is willing to investigate that in some capacity it seems. Like another poster mentioned upthread, even if they're focused on Clifton (which again, makes sense from their point of view) it still means that actual work is being done on the case, which is a rare thing in a case so old. The more work they do on it, the better.

If Armour's killer can be found and it's not Clifton, then there's actual impetus to reopen the Richmond case. I personally feel that those on the board who believe in Oscar's innocence or those of us who simply want the Richmond case to be examined again should look for ways to support and assist the County's work rather than fight them on it. Not only do they hold all the cards in the investigation, but they can point to decades worth of convictions, failed appeals, and failed parole hearings as reason not to ever touch the Richmond case again. And who can blame them -- it makes sense on paper. The fact that another serial killer was active in the area doesn't mean much in the face of what's gone down in the courtroom for the Richmond case as it stands now, but it means a world of possibilities for Armour. Then, if the Armour case pans out, the game is changed for Richmond and perhaps others.

[kemo]

Assuming that the Armour case was never relabeled as an accidental drowning, it should still be an Open Case and all records pertaining to the investigation should have been retained. There is no SOL on murder so there would be no justification for destroying any record or evidence.

It would stand to reason that re-opening the investigation with Clifton as the “ prime Suspect” ( although technically the case had been open all along) would be the appropriate response to the issues raised by the 12-26-75 podcast. After the arrest of Deangelo, the heat on TCSD is turned way up and they are going to have to address the issue.

Anyone who has taken an Intro to Criminology course would know that, once they had arrested Clifton for Richmond, he would become the prime suspect for Armour; the highest profile unsolved case TCSD had.

They must have made every effort to place Clifton in Tulare County the day Armour vanished. If Clifton was definitely in Vegas or had an otherwise solid alibi, so be it but it should be there in the Armour file (and Clifton’s attorney should have brought it up at Trial). If Clifton’s presence couldn’t be verified one way or the other, the record of the questioning of everyone of Clifton’s relatives, friends, known associates should be there in the file. That would be be an obvious line of investigation. If there was any evidence that Clifton was in town that day, he would most likely have been named publicly as a POI even if charges were not filed.

If the TCSD claims that Clifton was never investigated as a possible suspect in the Armour case, something is very wrong. They may not have been the brightest light of investigative competence but they were not THAT incompetent. The casefile of the Armour investigation contains a record of their investigation of Clifton’s possible role beginning January 1976 or something is very wrong.

Even though nobody associated with Richmond-Armour cases is still on duty, the TCSD has no reason to want to expose dirty laundry from the past, particularly if financial liability is still involved. The Deangelo “story” is going to be huge and a peripheral story of someone falsely convicted for one of his crimes is going to be a big part of it; it isn’t going to go away. With what we know about the Richmond case, the unsolved Armour case is going to amplify all doubt about Clifton’s guilt.