Jennifer Armour November 24, 1974

[zebra]

Jun 8, 2018 17:20:36 GMT kemo said:

...

They must have made every effort to place Clifton in Tulare County the day Armour vanished. If Clifton was definitely in Vegas or had an otherwise solid alibi, so be it but it should be there in the Armour file (and Clifton’s attorney should have brought it up at Trial).

I'm not so sure about this. It might make sense if Clifton had an absolutely irrefutable alibi (such as being filmed by security cameras in a Vegas casino that Friday evening), but anything short of that just opens up another can of worms for the defense. It's bad enough that he's got a criminal record and a complicated alibi in the Richmond case. The last thing the defense would want would be speculation about even the possibility that he murdered another girl. The danger is that a jury might think, "Well, we aren't completely sure this guy's the perpetrator, but we already think he's a creep and we just can't take the chance of setting free a serial killer, so let's convict him for now and let the cops and courts straighten it out if he turns out innocent." (Fat chance of that, but that's the way some jurors think.)

Also, I don't know about California, but in my jurisdiction it's actually much harder for the defense, as a matter of legal standards, to lay the evidentiary foundation for a "reverse similar transaction" than it is for the prosecution to introduce other crimes and cases. You not only have to show a common plan scheme or design but you also have to identify a specific alternate suspect. (It's a stupid rule, but that's what you get when most of your appellate judges are former prosecutors.)

Turning to another issue, the podcast suggests that the TCSO had already developed a theory that a couple of local boys were somehow involved in the Armour incident. They may have gone well down this rabbit hole before Oscar Clifton moved back to the area in 1975 and, if so, he might not have been on their radar for Jennifer's case until after they had already convinced themselves that the boys in question were their prime suspects.

And, again, according to the podcast, TSCO was so certain of its case against Clifton (based on mostly on the ledger and his criminal record) that they did not start seriously investigating his alibi for the Richmond case until after they discovered that forensics had struck out on every single aspect of the case. If they were that slow to even investigate his alibi for the case at hand, I suspect they didn't put a lot of effort into the investigation of his whereabouts in another state more than a year earlier.

But, who knows? I agree that it would be fascinating to see what they actually have in their files regarding the Armour case.          

  

[jackietreehorn]

Jun 8, 2018 3:43:53 GMT winters said:

From the County's point of view, revisiting the Richmond conviction doesn't make "sense." 

I think that's one of my problems with the indignant attitude of the 12-26-75 folks. I love their podcasts for the detailed information they provide and they have done a good job of convincing me that the Richmond case deserves another look. But if you look at it from the County's perspective, there's nothing in it for them to re-open the Richmond case. It would just re-open old wounds for the family and open the County to litigation. A conviction, in general, should settle the matter for the County unless and until new information comes to light. And you're exactly right - that's where Armour comes into play.

I don't know how the jurisdictional issues fit together, but I assume the FBI is intensely interested in seeing if JJD is tied to any cold cases. I also presume they're not as bound to accept Clifton's conviction as TCSO is. So I imagine that may be another potential route to exoneration of Clifton. I also think there is a slim chance that JJD might just own up to all of his crimes. Basically, the County is not the only route to knowing more about Armour and Richmond.

[kemo]

These are the “facts” as I know them on the Armour case. If I am wrong or if there is additional information, please correct me so that we may all have the real facts available when discussing this case.

On Friday, November 15, 1974, Jeniffer left her Visalia home to walk to the Visalia K-Mart, approx one mile away, to meet some friends at 4:30 PM with who she intended to drive to a HS football game. She was not there, as planned, and the others left without her. There was a report that someone saw her speaking to a man in a car (possibly white) approx one block from the K-Mart. She was reported missing to the Visalia PD who handled it as a presumed Runaway.

On November 25, 1974, her body was found in the Fraint-Kern Canal north-east of Exeter. She was nude except for her bra that was tied to one arm. The cause of death was listed as drowning and there was no report of any sexual assault or other injuries to her body. The rest of her clothing was found next to the canal an unspecified distance from where her body was found. Tulare County Sheriffs Dept had jurisdiction.


From what I can tell, this information came from available news reports. Generally, no mention of any sexual assault would be reported if it was evident so we have no idea if there was sexual assault. The report of death by drowning is pretty specific so we can assume there was no gunshot or knife wounds and no signs of severe beating or strangulation. There may have been bruises or other injuries consistent with a forced abduction but they were not reported.

The Podcast 12-26-75 reported that one TCSD source suggested that the death may have been an accident related to “skinny dipping” and there were two young men, known to “party” in those Orange groves that may have been involved but no case could be made. It must be noted that the weather and water temperature in that area would make “skinny dipping” extremely unlikely.

We can’t really draw any conclusions without access to the autopsy and other information that would be in the Case File.

[zebra]

^ If I recall correctly from the podcast, there's one error in all that. "The rest of her clothing" was not found next to the canal. There was mention of a blouse that was found, but, IIRC, they dragged the canal for some distance and never recovered any other items. So her ski-type jacket, necklace, lower undergarments, shoes and pants were apparently never found.

My memory may be off, though. It's a lot harder searching through podcast info than flipping through the pages of a book!

Edit: Found part of it. Info regarding other clothes never found and search of canal is about 4 minutes into Ep 12 of the podcast.  Info regarding blouse is in sidebar of interactive map for episodes 1-7 when clicking on "Jennifer." It says, "Blouse on canal bank at edge of orange grove. All other clothing (except for bra), necklace and ring missing." 

[kemo]

Jun 9, 2018 17:47:51 GMT zebra said:

^ If I recall correctly from the podcast, there's one error in all that. "The rest of her clothing" was not found next to the canal. There was mention of a blouse that was found, but, IIRC, they dragged the canal for some distance and never recovered any other items. So her ski-type jacket, necklace, lower undergarments, shoes and pants were apparently never found.

My memory may be off, though. It's a lot harder searching through podcast info than flipping through the pages of a book!

Edit: Found part of it. Info regarding other clothes never found and search of canal is about 4 minutes into Ep 12 of the podcast.  Info regarding blouse is in sidebar of interactive map for episodes 1-7 when clicking on "Jennifer." It says, "Blouse on canal bank at edge of orange grove. All other clothing (except for bra), necklace and ring missing." 

Thanks

[sage0409]

Jun 9, 2018 17:29:28 GMT kemo said:

These are the “facts” as I know them on the Armour case. If I am wrong or if there is additional information, please correct me so that we may all have the real facts available when discussing this case.

On Friday, November 15, 1974, Jeniffer left her Visalia home to walk to the Visalia K-Mart, approx one mile away, to meet some friends at 4:30 PM with who she intended to drive to a HS football game. She was not there, as planned, and the others left without her. There was a report that someone saw her speaking to a man in a car (possibly white) approx one block from the K-Mart. She was reported missing to the Visalia PD who handled it as a presumed Runaway.

On November 25, 1974, her body was found in the Fraint-Kern Canal north-east of Exeter. She was nude except for her bra that was tied to one arm. The cause of death was listed as drowning and there was no report of any sexual assault or other injuries to her body. The rest of her clothing was found next to the canal an unspecified distance from where her body was found. Tulare County Sheriffs Dept had jurisdiction.


From what I can tell, this information came from available news reports. Generally, no mention of any sexual assault would be reported if it was evident so we have no idea if there was sexual assault. The report of death by drowning is pretty specific so we can assume there was no gunshot or knife wounds and no signs of severe beating or strangulation. There may have been bruises or other injuries consistent with a forced abduction but they were not reported.

The Podcast 12-26-75 reported that one TCSD source suggested that the death may have been an accident related to “skinny dipping” and there were two young men, known to “party” in those Orange groves that may have been involved but no case could be made. It must be noted that the weather and water temperature in that area would make “skinny dipping” extremely unlikely.

We can’t really draw any conclusions without access to the autopsy and other information that would be in the Case File.

I've always thought it was death by drowning but then again as careless as the investigation was treated and how quick LE came to the conclusion of accidental drowning (because November is always the time of year to skinny dip in this part of the world) I can't believe the coroner's findings 100%. Who's to say there wasn't evidence of an attack and because of tunnel vision and desire to close the case as an accident or was overlooked or ignored? I don't trust authority

[bob]

*Friant  (spelling)

Items that were stolen by the Visalia Ransacker were found in an area very close to where Jennifer was found. 

[englebergz]

Jun 10, 2018 7:06:08 GMT bob said:

*Friant  (spelling)

Items that were stolen by the Visalia Ransacker were found in an area very close to where Jennifer was found. 

I don't think that's true, Bob. A few VR items were revived in smaller canals much further South and West, no where near the body actually. All these items and crime scenes are mapped on the 12-26-75 map on their website.

[kemo]

Jun 11, 2018 13:17:45 GMT englebergz said:

Jun 10, 2018 7:06:08 GMT bob said:

*Friant  (spelling)

Items that were stolen by the Visalia Ransacker were found in an area very close to where Jennifer was found. 

I don't think that's true, Bob. A few VR items were revived in smaller canals much further South and West, no where near the body actually. All these items and crime scenes are mapped on the 12-26-75 map on their website.

Yes, these were found very close to Clifton’s parents home,(which was the only directory listing for Clifton at the time) but nowhere near any area related to the Richmond or Armour cases. The only evidence that might directly like the Richmond and VR cases was the ski cap/mask that was found about 300 meters from Richmond’s body. Unlike the receipt book, which was right there with the bike, this was quite a ways away to be a deliberate plant. It’s hard to tell what to make of it.

[dengas]

She was to meet her friends 7:30 not 4:30. This has always bothered me because it is dark at that time. This then lends to the idea that either she was offered a ride by someone she knew, or a cop telling her she shouldn’t be out walking alone in the dark. The latter makes more sense since she was close to the K-Mart meeting place.

[sage0409]

Jun 11, 2018 20:55:52 GMT dengas said:

She was to meet her friends 7:30 not 4:30. This has always bothered me because it is dark at that time. This then lends to the idea that either she was offered a ride by someone she knew, or a cop telling her she shouldn’t be out walking alone in the dark. The latter makes more sense since she was close to the K-Mart meeting place.

Or maybe he made up something illegal she was doing and told her to get in and go to station? She was so close to her friend's meeting place I'm sure she felt she had no choice but to go with him. If he was"being nice" and offered to take her to Mineral King Bowl she would've declined as she has people waiting on her. I feel if it was in fact jjd Jennifer was intimidated to comply. Then again maybe he had a young friend as his wingman.

[zebra]

Jun 11, 2018 20:55:52 GMT dengas said:

She was to meet her friends 7:30 not 4:30. This has always bothered me because it is dark at that time. This then lends to the idea that either she was offered a ride by someone she knew, or a cop telling her she shouldn’t be out walking alone in the dark. The latter makes more sense since she was close to the K-Mart meeting place.

Agreed.

According to the podcast, she was last seen at 7 pm, roughly 4 or 5 blocks from the K-Mart parking lot. Unless that sighting was made at the time of abduction (which seems unlikely, since nothing suspicious  was reported), she would logically have continued on her way and gotten even closer to the meeting point before she vanished. Assuming she walked north up Demaree Street, there are a number of houses on both sides of the street until she hits W. Campus Avenue.  So Demaree Street doesn't seem like a great location for a predator to approach her. But W Campus is a different matter. Assuming the google maps are still a rough approximation of the structures that existed and the way things looked in 1974, it's easy to see how she could have encountered her abductor somewhere on the north side of W. Campus Avenue (as it runs east/northeast) without any local residents noticing much of anything, especially if she was cutting across one of the other parking lots. But by that point, she would have only been a block or two from her destination and even less likely to hitch a ride.

[sage0409]

Jun 12, 2018 22:56:06 GMT zebra said:

Jun 11, 2018 20:55:52 GMT dengas said:

She was to meet her friends 7:30 not 4:30. This has always bothered me because it is dark at that time. This then lends to the idea that either she was offered a ride by someone she knew, or a cop telling her she shouldn’t be out walking alone in the dark. The latter makes more sense since she was close to the K-Mart meeting place.

Agreed.

According to the podcast, she was last seen at 7 pm, roughly 4 or 5 blocks from the K-Mart parking lot. Unless that sighting was made at the time of abduction (which seems unlikely, since nothing suspicious  was reported), she would logically have continued on her way and gotten even closer to the meeting point before she vanished. Assuming she walked north up Demaree Street, there are a number of houses on both sides of the street until she hits W. Campus Avenue.  So Demaree Street doesn't seem like a great location for a predator to approach her. But W Campus is a different matter. Assuming the google maps are still a rough approximation of the structures that existed and the way things looked in 1974, it's easy to see how she could have encountered her abductor somewhere on the north side of W. Campus Avenue (as it runs east/northeast) without any local residents noticing much of anything, especially if she was cutting across one of the other parking lots. But by that point, she would have only been a block or two from her destination and even less likely to hitch a ride.

Campus Drive is behind all the buildings of the Kmart shopping center not much lighting. That would be a scary place to be approached by a stranger.

[zebra]

^ Do you happen to know whether the apartment buildings on the south side of Campus Drive were there in '74?

[sage0409]

Jun 13, 2018 19:20:47 GMT zebra said:

^ Do you happen to know whether the apartment buildings on the south side of Campus Drive were there in '74?

I'm pretty sure they were at least the ingress behind where Kmart was.