New Sacramento Investigative Leads Announced Today

[Hydrogen]

Feb 10, 2018 20:10:28 GMT morf13 said:

Feb 10, 2018 17:29:37 GMT Hydrogen said:

Once again... include a source or link to back up your claim, please.

Case in point: Within the last 9 hours a poster writes requesting the source of someone's claim. Another person replies: "If Bob is telling you there was a chase then there was a chase." In other words, we are supposed to accept that Bob's claim is correct -- because, after all, it's Bob...  as though newcomers to this site shouldn't dare question the 5-star veterans. But, then Bob replies: "I don't know if there was a chase or not (sorry about that assumption)."
He then corrects the mis-perception and provides a link so others can hear from the original source the information for themselves.
Bob saw this was best practice.

Does BK stand for Barbara Kennedy? I posted exactly what was stated by SCSD on the department's official Facebook page (and provided a link) -- that the information was given to the investigator. That was the last official word on this subject -- unless I've missed something. So if you, personally, have an inside track to official sources and they are encouraging you to post claims on this website that have not been disclosed to the public officially -- then you should at least acknowledge that this is highly unusual. If you are a verified insider or law enforcement investigating this case, then I've missed that key piece of information in your profile or posts.

H1

Sometimes when you have a source, you simply can't reveal who it is-especially if asked not to, or asked to wait for a few days or a week, etc 
Trust me, when they are ready to roll out the updates, they will come, and they will be interesting. I wouldn't say that if I didn't believe it to be true. Again, expect some updates soon, early this week on one front, and then later on another front

I appreciate that your source may be legitimate -- but only you knows this. My experience has told me that no LEO worth his/her salt would use back channels to disseminate information on a public forum.

I've been following true crime forums for more than a decade and can't tell you how many people post claims online because they came from a "reliable source" only to learn later that the information was false, misleading, or simply out of context. Why? Because the "reliable source" was really their buddy whose mother's boyfriend is the vending machine operator at the FBI and he heard it in the break room. It's happened time and again. So I'm dubious about what another person's definition of a reliable source is.

So please bear this in mind when you post info -- especially if you refute information that's in quotes and attributed to a PIO.

Thanks - 

H1

[Hydrogen]

Feb 10, 2018 18:13:45 GMT bob said:

Hi,
Pardon my oops when I originally typed that he was chased. As I corrected, I hope he was chased, but it's possible he was long gone before LE got there and the trail was followed later or this event was reconstructed later.

I'd like to ask posters here to refrain from posting names associated with initials believed or alleged to be on that form. Wherever the ER workers are now, it's important that LE find them. If you know of a BK or of anyone else who worked at that hospital and may possibly have been there that night or could have known who was there that night, please call www.fbi.tip.gov or if this person is an acquaintance, ask them to contact Sac. LE or the tip line.

You can leave crime tips at www.fbi.tip.gov. Just state the crime and the tip.
No, they won't get back to you. It's not a chat line, just a drop-box for tips.

This will avoid a lot of calls to former hospital personnel from randos. We also don't want to contribute to EAR/ONS who may be trying to find everyone working in/around the ER when he was signed in, triaged, seen, or seen fleeing. etc.

B.K. is in reference to a lead (not a POI) and initials are generally considered acceptable as they are non-identifiable. Nonetheless, I removed the information per your request.

Just to clarify: Tips and leads should go to the agency that made the announcement. In this case, the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department.

H1

[trabuco]

Feb 10, 2018 21:46:34 GMT findons said:

So just for the sake of discussion and I am playing the devils advocate here: One of the things said in this video is below: Lets walk through this: www.facebook.com/SacSheriff/videos/1156432447827275/

Sacramento Sheriff said this about the attack off 4th Parkway which is where the conjecture he may have fallen into the creek and broken his shoulder. IF this guy at the hospital seeking treatment was in fact EAR. So bear with me. In another thread I talk about various ways this could have happened from the attack - He would have had to run through the neighborhood for at least a few blocks and then jump over a back fence falling into the creek. I talked about three ways he could have done this geographically. The thing is EAR knew this area and he knew how steep in places the creek was (Back of fence) high path and then if no water in the creek cement bed. This attack was in May, most likely there was water in the creek. In this attack EAR left before LE was called and had plenty of time to get away. No hurried run and jump over a fence hurting himself. He knew the area like the back of his hand. It could be the guy who showed up at the hospital had nothing to do with being EAR and the person who reported it might be him was nervous and worried and just wanted to report in case it might be him.

I literally grew up 3 blocks from this attack and lived and played in this creek. If no one was actively chasing EAR as he left 4th Parkway - he probably just strolled away in the dark to safety. Probably lived near this area even. We do not know. What I DO KNOW is the area of the attack because I lived there 18 years. As the crow flies I was just across on the other side of the creek from 4th parkway.  This is why I have a hard time thinking this would have been where a possible suspect would have hurt himself in this manner. It is possible of course.  So, as a result I have a hard time believing EAR was the guy at the hospital unless he hurt himself some other way. All up in the air at this point. He had plenty of time to just walk away in this attack - no need to run and jump. EAR always knew where he was and the best ways in and out.

This is what the article/P/R guys statement said: It is conjectured that if the individual who sought treatment was the East Area Rapist, he may have suffered an injury related to his escape from the sexual assault of a couple on May 28th, 1977. The rapist jumped a fence into a very steep canal where avoiding injury would be difficult in the dark. This sexual assault also preceded an over 13-week break in the rape series and an 18-week break in attacks in Sacramento. Findons says: It was close to summer break EAR had previously stopped attacks in the summer. Maybe a coincidence he stopped for 13 weeks to 18 weeks. When the LE PR guy says "The Rapist jumped a fence into a very steep canal" etc. How would they know that? They were not there when EAR left the scene. Just saying. I always have questions. The story leaves me with questions since I know the attack and the scene. Lastly, I suppose EAR could have been arrogant and decided to jump a fence because he was so good at it (but it was not necessary in this case) after this attack.

Findons, I may have lost track of who was saying what here.

My point is that only LE and the perpetrator(s) and sometimes victims and witnesses will know facts about an attack.

Who would have known what was necessary after this attack?

This phrase always gets my attention "I know."

[morf13]

Feb 11, 2018 18:59:50 GMT Hydrogen said:

Feb 10, 2018 20:10:28 GMT morf13 said:

Sometimes when you have a source, you simply can't reveal who it is-especially if asked not to, or asked to wait for a few days or a week, etc 
Trust me, when they are ready to roll out the updates, they will come, and they will be interesting. I wouldn't say that if I didn't believe it to be true. Again, expect some updates soon, early this week on one front, and then later on another front

I appreciate that your source may be legitimate -- but only you knows this. My experience has told me that no LEO worth his/her salt would use back channels to disseminate information on a public forum.

I've been following true crime forums for more than a decade and can't tell you how many people post claims online because they came from a "reliable source" only to learn later that the information was false, misleading, or simply out of context. Why? Because the "reliable source" was really their buddy whose mother's boyfriend is the vending machine operator at the FBI and he heard it in the break room. It's happened time and again. So I'm dubious about what another person's definition of a reliable source is.

So please bear this in mind when you post info -- especially if you refute information that's in quotes and attributed to a PIO.

Thanks - 

H1

Well,you look pretty new to this forum. I think there are more than enough people here that know me well enough to tell you, that what I say is legitimate. Up to you whether you choose to believe it or not

[Hydrogen]

Feb 11, 2018 11:58:18 GMT justasking said:

Looks like he had to leave lifting to others and "achieve" by other means in the latter half of 1977.

Interesting observation.

Between June and September did GSK find help? Did the hired hand wear a 9.5 shoe? According to Winter's catalog of events (https://www.coldcase-earons.com/23.php) the first time this shoe size is mentioned in an attack is the Sept 6, 1977 incident in Stockton.  

H1

[Hydrogen]

Feb 10, 2018 21:46:34 GMT findons said:

So just for the sake of discussion and I am playing the devils advocate here: One of the things said in this video is below: Lets walk through this: www.facebook.com/SacSheriff/videos/1156432447827275/

Sacramento Sheriff said this about the attack off 4th Parkway which is where the conjecture he may have fallen into the creek and broken his shoulder. IF this guy at the hospital seeking treatment was in fact EAR. So bear with me. In another thread I talk about various ways this could have happened from the attack - He would have had to run through the neighborhood for at least a few blocks and then jump over a back fence falling into the creek. I talked about three ways he could have done this geographically. The thing is EAR knew this area and he knew how steep in places the creek was (Back of fence) high path and then if no water in the creek cement bed. This attack was in May, most likely there was water in the creek. In this attack EAR left before LE was called and had plenty of time to get away. No hurried run and jump over a fence hurting himself. He knew the area like the back of his hand. It could be the guy who showed up at the hospital had nothing to do with being EAR and the person who reported it might be him was nervous and worried and just wanted to report in case it might be him.

I literally grew up 3 blocks from this attack and lived and played in this creek. If no one was actively chasing EAR as he left 4th Parkway - he probably just strolled away in the dark to safety. Probably lived near this area even. We do not know. What I DO KNOW is the area of the attack because I lived there 18 years. As the crow flies I was just across on the other side of the creek from 4th parkway.  This is why I have a hard time thinking this would have been where a possible suspect would have hurt himself in this manner. It is possible of course.  So, as a result I have a hard time believing EAR was the guy at the hospital unless he hurt himself some other way. All up in the air at this point. He had plenty of time to just walk away in this attack - no need to run and jump. EAR always knew where he was and the best ways in and out.

This is what the article/P/R guys statement said: It is conjectured that if the individual who sought treatment was the East Area Rapist, he may have suffered an injury related to his escape from the sexual assault of a couple on May 28th, 1977. The rapist jumped a fence into a very steep canal where avoiding injury would be difficult in the dark. This sexual assault also preceded an over 13-week break in the rape series and an 18-week break in attacks in Sacramento. Findons says: It was close to summer break EAR had previously stopped attacks in the summer. Maybe a coincidence he stopped for 13 weeks to 18 weeks. When the LE PR guy says "The Rapist jumped a fence into a very steep canal" etc. How would they know that? They were not there when EAR left the scene. Just saying. I always have questions. The story leaves me with questions since I know the attack and the scene. Lastly, I suppose EAR could have been arrogant and decided to jump a fence because he was so good at it (but it was not necessary in this case) after this attack.

findons,

I read your book last fall and went through this attack location on Google Earth pretty thoroughly as you described it in the first few chapters. I follow what you are saying in this post and would agree that it seems unlikely EAR would have hurt himself escaping this attack. Possibly the day after the attack he hurt himself (hitting a wall in anger? jumping off a roof while prowling?) but I definitely see what you are saying. All it takes is a map.

4th Parkway is a short street and, at its closest point, is 1/4 mile from the creek as the crow flies. To walk/run from 4th Pkwy to the creek traveling via the streets the distance is about 1/2 mile. Plus, according to Shelby's book, the tracking dog led to a small lot and a low fence bordering northbound Highway 99 to a location in front of a stand of trees and ended where tire tracks of a small vehicle were found.  Which is no where near the creek.

H1

[findons]

Feb 11, 2018 20:58:50 GMT Hydrogen said:

Feb 10, 2018 21:46:34 GMT findons said:

So just for the sake of discussion and I am playing the devils advocate here: One of the things said in this video is below: Lets walk through this: www.facebook.com/SacSheriff/videos/1156432447827275/

Sacramento Sheriff said this about the attack off 4th Parkway which is where the conjecture he may have fallen into the creek and broken his shoulder. IF this guy at the hospital seeking treatment was in fact EAR. So bear with me. In another thread I talk about various ways this could have happened from the attack - He would have had to run through the neighborhood for at least a few blocks and then jump over a back fence falling into the creek. I talked about three ways he could have done this geographically. The thing is EAR knew this area and he knew how steep in places the creek was (Back of fence) high path and then if no water in the creek cement bed. This attack was in May, most likely there was water in the creek. In this attack EAR left before LE was called and had plenty of time to get away. No hurried run and jump over a fence hurting himself. He knew the area like the back of his hand. It could be the guy who showed up at the hospital had nothing to do with being EAR and the person who reported it might be him was nervous and worried and just wanted to report in case it might be him.

I literally grew up 3 blocks from this attack and lived and played in this creek. If no one was actively chasing EAR as he left 4th Parkway - he probably just strolled away in the dark to safety. Probably lived near this area even. We do not know. What I DO KNOW is the area of the attack because I lived there 18 years. As the crow flies I was just across on the other side of the creek from 4th parkway.  This is why I have a hard time thinking this would have been where a possible suspect would have hurt himself in this manner. It is possible of course.  So, as a result I have a hard time believing EAR was the guy at the hospital unless he hurt himself some other way. All up in the air at this point. He had plenty of time to just walk away in this attack - no need to run and jump. EAR always knew where he was and the best ways in and out.

This is what the article/P/R guys statement said: It is conjectured that if the individual who sought treatment was the East Area Rapist, he may have suffered an injury related to his escape from the sexual assault of a couple on May 28th, 1977. The rapist jumped a fence into a very steep canal where avoiding injury would be difficult in the dark. This sexual assault also preceded an over 13-week break in the rape series and an 18-week break in attacks in Sacramento. Findons says: It was close to summer break EAR had previously stopped attacks in the summer. Maybe a coincidence he stopped for 13 weeks to 18 weeks. When the LE PR guy says "The Rapist jumped a fence into a very steep canal" etc. How would they know that? They were not there when EAR left the scene. Just saying. I always have questions. The story leaves me with questions since I know the attack and the scene. Lastly, I suppose EAR could have been arrogant and decided to jump a fence because he was so good at it (but it was not necessary in this case) after this attack.

findons,

I read your book last fall and went through this attack location on Google Earth pretty thoroughly as you described it in the first few chapters. I follow what you are saying in this post and would agree that it seems unlikely EAR would have hurt himself escaping this attack. Possibly the day after the attack he hurt himself (hitting a wall in anger? jumping off a roof while prowling?) but I definitely see what you are saying. All it takes is a map.

4th Parkway is a short street and, at its closest point, is 1/4 mile from the creek as the crow flies. To walk/run from 4th Pkwy to the creek traveling via the streets the distance is about 1/2 mile. Plus, according to Shelby's book, the tracking dog led to a small lot and a low fence bordering northbound Highway 99 to a location in front of a stand of trees and ended where tire tracks of a small vehicle were found.  Which is no where near the creek.

H1

Thanks Hydrogen - yes when those who look at a map see what the layout of the neighborhood is they may come to the same conclusion.  I am glad you saw what I am talking about - jumping a fence and falling into the creek after this particular attack does not seem feasible especially since EAR always knew the geography and had more than one plan in case plan "A" failed.   

[bob]

Just a reminder,

I tend to think of a POI as a suspect because I occasionally look up info on potential suspects or POIs. But POI just means Person of Interest. 

So anyone who was a potential witness is a Person of Interest, but certainly not a suspect. 


I want to thank all of you for respecting privacy and not using POIs' names here unless they've already passed away or been drug through the media.  

It is also presumed that EAR/ONS watches this board. 

 

[portofleith]

Feb 11, 2018 22:01:24 GMT findons said:

Feb 11, 2018 20:58:50 GMT Hydrogen said:

findons,

I read your book last fall and went through this attack location on Google Earth pretty thoroughly as you described it in the first few chapters. I follow what you are saying in this post and would agree that it seems unlikely EAR would have hurt himself escaping this attack. Possibly the day after the attack he hurt himself (hitting a wall in anger? jumping off a roof while prowling?) but I definitely see what you are saying. All it takes is a map.

4th Parkway is a short street and, at its closest point, is 1/4 mile from the creek as the crow flies. To walk/run from 4th Pkwy to the creek traveling via the streets the distance is about 1/2 mile. Plus, according to Shelby's book, the tracking dog led to a small lot and a low fence bordering northbound Highway 99 to a location in front of a stand of trees and ended where tire tracks of a small vehicle were found.  Which is no where near the creek.

H1

Thanks Hydrogen - yes when those who look at a map see what the layout of the neighborhood is they may come to the same conclusion.  I am glad you saw what I am talking about - jumping a fence and falling into the creek after this particular attack does not seem feasible especially since EAR always knew the geography and had more than one plan in case plan "A" failed.   

We have to keep this attack in context with #21 which was in one of EAR's favorite neighborhoods - Carmichael.  The Water Treatment plant where male victim #22 worked for two years was directly behind the Carmichael house.  That cannot be coincidence. Victims #22 had only lived in the South Sacramento house for three weeks.  Also, contrary to what has been written, the scent dog did not hit on the freeway fence.  The scent dog could not track beyond the back corner fence of the victim's yard and the dog handler attributed that to the turbulence of air created by traffic on the nearby freeway.  So EAR had time to depart the scene and go in any direction he wanted.  Findons,  What was beyond the park and Morrison Creek in the area that is now shopping centers- open field?

[findons]

Feb 11, 2018 23:14:39 GMT portofleith said:

Feb 11, 2018 22:01:24 GMT findons said:

Thanks Hydrogen - yes when those who look at a map see what the layout of the neighborhood is they may come to the same conclusion.  I am glad you saw what I am talking about - jumping a fence and falling into the creek after this particular attack does not seem feasible especially since EAR always knew the geography and had more than one plan in case plan "A" failed.   

We have to keep this attack in context with #21 which was in one of EAR's favorite neighborhoods - Carmichael.  The Water Treatment plant where male victim #22 worked for two years was directly behind the Carmichael house.  That cannot be coincidence. Victims #22 had only lived in the South Sacramento house for three weeks.  Also, contrary to what has been written, the scent dog did not hit on the freeway fence.  The scent dog could not track beyond the back corner fence of the victim's yard and the dog handler attributed that to the turbulence of air created by traffic on the nearby freeway.  So EAR had time to depart the scene and go in any direction he wanted.  Findons,  What was beyond the park and Morrison Creek in the area that is now shopping centers- open field?

Yes Portofleith, I had heard this part of the report - about the victims working at the water treatment plant and like you I do not believe it was a coincidence.  I think that the fact that victim #22 had just moved to South Sacramento especially when patrols were in East Sacramento looking for EAR was most likely a double dose of enjoyment for EAR.  He attacked in the South part of town where no one was looking quite so hard for him, he attacked someone who had just moved from another area and in keeping with the just sold (for sale) sign part of his MO EAR probably loved the irony of it.  He also knew the area well.  We agree that EAR had plenty of time to go anywhere he pleased (which is what I said in an earlier post) he just walked away into the darkness.  No chase, no falling into the creek, no injury from this attack.  So the question then is why is Sac PD sounding as though this was or might have been the case regarding this attack? 

Florin Road was just South of attack off 4th Parkway - standing where the attack was (directly behind you Florin Road). The open field was shrinking as they built everything.  Florin Center (right next to what was left of the field) was built in 1968.  They tore down Florin Center in 2006 so it has changed again.  There was a neighborhood (apartments) the State Theater on the short road between Sky Park and Florin Road.  If you face Sky Park from #22 you are looking north and Morrison Creek is right behind the houses beyond the park.   If you went east the open field came out on Florin Road (it was and is very close) 

If you went North past the creek (Steiner Drive and 53rd Avenue is the Morrison Creek bridge) you end up in another neighborhood but highway 99 on ramps are also close and within a few minutes you can get pretty much anywhere. Access to Highway 99 from this neighborhood would be on ramp from Florin or an on ramp from 47th Avenue. Highway 50 East is just a couple of minutes away (Carmichael and Rancho Cordova) or if he chose south - Elk Grove, Stockton.  Also any overpass going over Highway 99 would take you to Bowling Green Neighborhoods and away from the scene.  The over pass we used to take to get to Junior High School (Fern Bacon) was right off Livingston Way through a small field over highway 99.  It is not easy to get to now but it was then in 1977.  If EAR actually decided to take Morrison Creek out of the area east and if there was not much water he could freely come out in any neighborhood along the way.  Back in the day not much was there in terms of fences - most could freely access the canal between houses in any neighborhood. I hope that helps.  

[findons]

I might add that I am sure Sac Sheriff's knows what they are doing and why they say what they say, but if EAR hurt himself it was sometime between attack #22 and when (IF it was him) showed up at the hospital with a shoulder problem. So the injury (IF it happened to EAR) - likely was within the day after attack #22.

[Hydrogen]

Feb 11, 2018 22:37:16 GMT bob said:

Just a reminder,

I tend to think of a POI as a suspect because I occasionally look up info on potential suspects or POIs. But POI just means Person of Interest. 

So anyone who was a potential witness is a Person of Interest, but certainly not a suspect. 


I want to thank all of you for respecting privacy and not using POIs' names here unless they've already passed away or been drug through the media.  

It is also presumed that EAR/ONS watches this board. 

 

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person%20of%20interest

Merriam-Webster definition of person of interest: a person who is believed to be possibly involved in a crime but has not been charged or arrested.

I've never seen a witness or potential witness described as a "POI" and the acronym is not used interchangeably with "witness".  

These are examples:
www.google.com/search?q=police+identify+a+person+of+interest&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR2JuCl5_ZAhVBw2MKHSZkB9QQ_AUICygC&biw=1309&bih=695

H1

[Hydrogen]

Feb 11, 2018 23:46:32 GMT findons said:

Feb 11, 2018 23:14:39 GMT portofleith said:

We have to keep this attack in context with #21 which was in one of EAR's favorite neighborhoods - Carmichael.  The Water Treatment plant where male victim #22 worked for two years was directly behind the Carmichael house.  That cannot be coincidence. Victims #22 had only lived in the South Sacramento house for three weeks.  Also, contrary to what has been written, the scent dog did not hit on the freeway fence.  The scent dog could not track beyond the back corner fence of the victim's yard and the dog handler attributed that to the turbulence of air created by traffic on the nearby freeway.  So EAR had time to depart the scene and go in any direction he wanted.  Findons,  What was beyond the park and Morrison Creek in the area that is now shopping centers- open field?

Yes Portofleith, I had heard this part of the report - about the victims working at the water treatment plant and like you I do not believe it was a coincidence.  I think that the fact that victim #22 had just moved to South Sacramento especially when patrols were in East Sacramento looking for EAR was most likely a double dose of enjoyment for EAR.  He attacked in the South part of town where no one was looking quite so hard for him, he attacked someone who had just moved from another area and in keeping with the just sold (for sale) sign part of his MO EAR probably loved the irony of it.  He also knew the area well.  We agree that EAR had plenty of time to go anywhere he pleased (which is what I said in an earlier post) he just walked away into the darkness.  No chase, no falling into the creek, no injury from this attack.  So the question then is why is Sac PD sounding as though this was or might have been the case regarding this attack? 

Florin Road was just South of attack off 4th Parkway - standing where the attack was (directly behind you Florin Road). The open field was shrinking as they built everything.  Florin Center (right next to what was left of the field) was built in 1968.  They tore down Florin Center in 2006 so it has changed again.  There was a neighborhood (apartments) the State Theater on the short road between Sky Park and Florin Road.  If you face Sky Park from #22 you are looking north and Morrison Creek is right behind the houses beyond the park.   If you went east the open field came out on Florin Road (it was and is very close) 

If you went North past the creek (Steiner Drive and 53rd Avenue is the Morrison Creek bridge) you end up in another neighborhood but highway 99 on ramps are also close and within a few minutes you can get pretty much anywhere. Access to Highway 99 from this neighborhood would be on ramp from Florin or an on ramp from 47th Avenue. Highway 50 East is just a couple of minutes away (Carmichael and Rancho Cordova) or if he chose south - Elk Grove, Stockton.  Also any overpass going over Highway 99 would take you to Bowling Green Neighborhoods and away from the scene.  The over pass we used to take to get to Junior High School (Fern Bacon) was right off Livingston Way through a small field over highway 99.  It is not easy to get to now but it was then in 1977.  If EAR actually decided to take Morrison Creek out of the area east and if there was not much water he could freely come out in any neighborhood along the way.  Back in the day not much was there in terms of fences - most could freely access the canal between houses in any neighborhood. I hope that helps.  

Portofleith,

I'll believe what you say about the scent. So no awaiting vehicle then? 

H1

[justasking]

Perhaps the "leisure" (which "tempts excitement seeking") was a more particular type of leisure, something current in his life at the time of writing "Excitement's Crave", as opposed to a general statement about his motivations. Saying that leisure tempts him sounds like he tries to explain or justify his actions. He didn't really understand his own motivations and his rationalizations might have fluctuated. If he had a shoulder injury and had to take time off from work or other duties, he might have come up with a new rationalization; "it is this leisure that tempts me to do it again". Like an addict who always has an explanation. When this injury happened he was granted even more free time with his obsessions, hence; "leisure tempts excitement seeking" (and he can't help it).

Of course this is speculation based on two unproven assumptions.

[andrew]

wonder what else the cops know bet you a lot