Possible Connection between 1973 Sac and the VR?

[dengas]

Mar 2, 2018 1:53:25 GMT winters said:

Mar 2, 2018 1:35:46 GMT dengas said:

The 10/20 report is iffy at best,

“received a call from (redacted) of (redacted) Whitney, who reported that on this date at 1000 hrs. she observed a suspicious person riding by her home on a bicycle. She related that the subject was going southbound on Whitney towards Campus and she immediately went to her car and attempted to follow the subject to see where he was going and get a better look at him. (Refacted) stated that when she got to Csmpus and Whitney the subject was nowhere to be found. She then drove around the neighborhood and over toward the COS campus but could not locate the subject, she felt it was unusual for him to disappear so quickly.

(Redacted) stated that the subject is in his early 20s with shoulder length brown wavy hair and appeared to be very dirty. The bicycle is a very old one with the large balloon tires.

(Redacted) statef that this is the third time she had observed this same subject riding in her neighborhood and she feels that he doesn’t belong in the area.




MAN, CAN THIS REPORT BE TORN APART! Go at it 😁

That one is definitely interesting, but if I recall that occurred sometime in the morning. A list from a jurisdiction currently investigating the case lists a ransacking on Emerald Street, and the approximate time of the ransacking can be placed sometime before or after 9:40 PM because on 10/20/75 at 9:40 PM, a young man returning to his home (on Emerald street) from visiting a friend interrupted a man believed to be the Ransacker at his window and side gate. The man ran off toward the fence and the boy believes he scaled it and disappeared (the boy ran to a neighbor's so he wasn't sure). The only description he could commit to was a white male, blue jacket, bluejeans if I recall.

The following day, a man believed to be the Ransacker was seen in the area and was apparently harassing a family on Royal Oaks that he'd been targeting for some time, both showing up at their door and making a threatening phone call. I don't recall all of the details off the top of my head, but the family had received a threatening phone call just 5 days prior, and had been ransacked by the VR on September 22nd (the first known ransacking after the failed Beth Snelling kidnapping actually). It seemed to be his pattern in late 1975 to prowl a home, ransack it, prowl it some more, and then start to escalate.

In between this, the 10/21/75 Rancho Cordova rape occurred between 4:00 AM and 6:30 AM. There's technically no overlap, and if any of these incidents can be discounted then it'll help. The folks I've dealt with unanimously think these incidents are all genuine/canon so it's one of those interesting dates that flirt with the possibility of the offenders being different but can't slam the book shut on it.

[dengas]

The boys description on Emerald Ct.:
“5’10” to 6 ft. 150 lbs., with light colored brown hair, wearing a blue jacket and blue Levi’s.”

[danmiami]

The blue stamps could possibly be discounted as mere coincidence I guess. However I have never seen a burglar open a window and remove the screen as an escape route in case someone came home. CC burglar and VR did this same exact thing, Ask any detective in LE handling burglaries if they have ever seen this before and I guarantee the answer is no. VR also used creek beds like the offender in Sacramento. Very similar physical descriptions of the RC burglar and VR based on eye witness testimonies.

1 coincidence even 3 coincidences I guess can be explained away. There are so many coincidences and similarities between these 2 perps. If we are going to discount them as mere coincidence we might as well also say that the attacks in Contra Costa County were not EAR because we don’t have conclusive proof via DNA. No one would have ever connected him as ONS either unless there was DNA. I bet there would be people on here saying “He never demonstrated killing people in the home so different MOs.” Keep an open mind of course that they may not be related but how much proof does 1 need to at least lean in the direction that VR is EAR?

If the RC burglar was VR then this places him in Sacramento in the early 70s. This is the clincher for me if true.

I mean sometimes you have to make an assumption and then take the investigation in that direction. We will never know for certain unless he confesses when apprehended.

[danmiami]

Mar 2, 2018 1:58:12 GMT winters said:

Mar 2, 2018 1:54:26 GMT Ranger71 said:

Strange that the woman or girls didn't get any kind of glimpse of his skin to definatively say he was white or black, going solely off his his voice instead.

They based their determination on his race by the way he said "motherfucker." Another quirk of this attack is that he called them "ladies" a few times, which was something I don't recall the EAR ever doing.

The “motherfucker” comment trust me all races used this back in the 70s. My older brothers used that word all the time around their friends. Also you had David Witthuhn stating that a strange VM from what sounded like an African American male was left on the machine a few weeks before Manuela’s murder. He was probably well versed in disguising his voice. 

I related the term to his escalation of rage which began to occur coincidentally right after the Maggiore murders. Also “I’ll blow your fuckin brains out” was another term used quite frequently in the later attacks.

[rkz]

Mar 2, 2018 2:35:32 GMT danmiami said:

The blue stamps could possibly be discounted as mere coincidence I guess. However I have never seen a burglar open a window and remove the screen as an escape route in case someone came home. CC burglar and VR did this same exact thing, Ask any detective in LE handling burglaries if they have ever seen this before and I guarantee the answer is no.

This is the kind of thing that makes me think that excessive criticism of how LE handled EAR is unwarranted. They were dealing with a type of crime and a type of criminal that they'd never really encountered before. He was trying and succeeding at new techniques that they'd never encountered before. He was more prolific and active than the rapists they'd encountered before. He knew how to evade them too well. There were other rapists active in the area at the time and so many weird incidents that could have been his work. They were dealing with a guy who taxed LE resources like a motherfucker - how many cops were supposed to be staking out every Sac suburb every night? How many were expected to show up to every report of suspicious activity?


EAR's crimes were kind of like an enormous painting of which one can only see bits and pieces of at first, and you can't see its totality until it's finished. By the time LE understood that they were dealing with they were too late - due partly to incompetence I suppose but also due to shock and surprise and the inability to predict the existence of a perp like him.  All these factor into the reasons why LE couldn't apprehend him - it wasn't just "bad police work" (though a degree of criticism is definitely warranted). They were dealing with an almost alien type of perp. Their resources and methods for catching criminals at the time were not up to the task simply because they never planned for a guy like EAR to emerge.

[redding2]

Mar 2, 2018 1:53:25 GMT winters said:

Mar 2, 2018 1:35:46 GMT dengas said:

The 10/20 report is iffy at best,

“received a call from (redacted) of (redacted) Whitney, who reported that on this date at 1000 hrs. she observed a suspicious person riding by her home on a bicycle. She related that the subject was going southbound on Whitney towards Campus and she immediately went to her car and attempted to follow the subject to see where he was going and get a better look at him. (Refacted) stated that when she got to Csmpus and Whitney the subject was nowhere to be found. She then drove around the neighborhood and over toward the COS campus but could not locate the subject, she felt it was unusual for him to disappear so quickly.

(Redacted) stated that the subject is in his early 20s with shoulder length brown wavy hair and appeared to be very dirty. The bicycle is a very old one with the large balloon tires.

(Redacted) statef that this is the third time she had observed this same subject riding in her neighborhood and she feels that he doesn’t belong in the area.




MAN, CAN THIS REPORT BE TORN APART! Go at it 😁

That one is definitely interesting, but if I recall that occurred sometime in the morning. A list from a jurisdiction currently investigating the case lists a ransacking on Emerald Street, and the approximate time of the ransacking can be placed sometime before or after 9:40 PM because on 10/20/75 at 9:40 PM, a young man returning to his home (on Emerald street) from visiting a friend interrupted a man believed to be the Ransacker at his window and side gate. The man ran off toward the fence and the boy believes he scaled it and disappeared (the boy ran to a neighbor's so he wasn't sure). The only description he could commit to was a white male, blue jacket, bluejeans if I recall.

The following day, a man believed to be the Ransacker was seen in the area and was apparently harassing a family on Royal Oaks that he'd been targeting for some time, both showing up at their door and making a threatening phone call. I don't recall all of the details off the top of my head, but the family had received a threatening phone call just 5 days prior, and had been ransacked by the VR on September 22nd (the first known ransacking after the failed Beth Snelling kidnapping actually). It seemed to be his pattern in late 1975 to prowl a home, ransack it, prowl it some more, and then start to escalate.

In between this, the 10/21/75 Rancho Cordova rape occurred between 4:00 AM and 6:30 AM. There's technically no overlap, and if any of these incidents can be discounted then it'll help. The folks I've dealt with unanimously think these incidents are all genuine/canon so it's one of those interesting dates that flirt with the possibility of the offenders being different but can't slam the book shut on it.

The 10.20.75 item is listed as an incident and not as an actual ransacking.  It is just a guy that was seen in a yard.
So it wasn't even a ransacking it was just a suspicious person.  The ransacker tended to hit multiple houses in one night.  This guy never even entered the property.  Who knows who he was.
From the 12.26.75 website:
10/20 Incident
description
10/20/75 - Monday - 9:40pm
Emerald Court
Son returned home w/o key; Entered backyard to get spare, Gate slammed making loud noise. WMA seen running from bedroom toward fence; Son contacted neighbor. Suspect described as 5'10 150lbs; light-colored brown hair.

After the 10-20 incident (which does sound like the VR) there is nothing noted until 10/24/75 when a cluster of ransackings take place. 
 

[attxlatt121]

I think stealing blue chip stamps AND leaving money is quite unusual. Every podcast/interview they always mention he wouldn’t steal money but steal “weird things like Bluechip stamps” if it was such a normal thing I doubt they would bother mentioning it the way they do.

I don’t think it was a unique MO but it wasn’t like every burglar always went straight for the Bluechip stamps in the house.

[attxlatt121]

Yeah the strangest thing for me is that people are saying the 73 suspect sounds just like the EAR and that it could likely be him. Yet, the new suspect has more in common with the VR than the EAR. Why the disconnect? Is it only because he’s in Sacramento?

Wouldn’t it be more logical even to say oh this ‘73 suspect doesn’t really sound like the EAR, but it could be the VR. Anyway.

[otiswasthegreatest]

Who are the people behind the 12-26-76 podcast?

[attxlatt121]

Mar 2, 2018 11:37:54 GMT otiswasthegreatest said:

Who are the people behind the 12-26-76 podcast?

They don’t say and they seem pretty secretive. I guess they are some kind of criminologist, as they mention working on a case with LE where the suspect burned his computer and house down then shot himself in the head. This was because the police just went up to the man and said he suspected and asked for a dna sample.

[jackydee]

Mar 2, 2018 2:58:13 GMT rkz said:

Mar 2, 2018 2:35:32 GMT danmiami said:

The blue stamps could possibly be discounted as mere coincidence I guess. However I have never seen a burglar open a window and remove the screen as an escape route in case someone came home. CC burglar and VR did this same exact thing, Ask any detective in LE handling burglaries if they have ever seen this before and I guarantee the answer is no.

This is the kind of thing that makes me think that excessive criticism of how LE handled EAR is unwarranted. They were dealing with a type of crime and a type of criminal that they'd never really encountered before. He was trying and succeeding at new techniques that they'd never encountered before. He was more prolific and active than the rapists they'd encountered before. He knew how to evade them too well. There were other rapists active in the area at the time and so many weird incidents that could have been his work. They were dealing with a guy who taxed LE resources like a motherfucker - how many cops were supposed to be staking out every Sac suburb every night? How many were expected to show up to every report of suspicious activity?


EAR's crimes were kind of like an enormous painting of which one can only see bits and pieces of at first, and you can't see its totality until it's finished. By the time LE understood that they were dealing with they were too late - due partly to incompetence I suppose but also due to shock and surprise and the inability to predict the existence of a perp like him.  All these factor into the reasons why LE couldn't apprehend him - it wasn't just "bad police work" (though a degree of criticism is definitely warranted). They were dealing with an almost alien type of perp. Their resources and methods for catching criminals at the time were not up to the task simply because they never planned for a guy like EAR to emerge.

I do think some LE critics have a tendency to focus on one lead and conclude "why didn't LE see that lead the same way we do?.....this[insert important info or poi here] was staring the fools in the face all the time!". We have to understand LE will have had dozens upon dozens of very strong leads. Many times we read about POI's who sound very very plausible but turn out to be innocent.

[redding2]

Mar 2, 2018 11:25:09 GMT winters said:

Mar 2, 2018 3:01:40 GMT redding2 said:

The 10.20.75 item is listed as an incident and not as an actual ransacking.  It is just a guy that was seen in a yard.
So it wasn't even a ransacking it was just a suspicious person.  The ransacker tended to hit multiple houses in one night.  This guy never even entered the property.  Who knows who he was.
From the 12.26.75 website:
10/20 Incident
description
10/20/75 - Monday - 9:40pm
Emerald Court
Son returned home w/o key; Entered backyard to get spare, Gate slammed making loud noise. WMA seen running from bedroom toward fence; Son contacted neighbor. Suspect described as 5'10 150lbs; light-colored brown hair.

After the 10-20 incident (which does sound like the VR) there is nothing noted until 10/24/75 when a cluster of ransackings take place. 
 

I trust police documentation that I've seen with my own eyes and and direct info from investigators far more than I trust a website (any website)

I try to be as helpful as I can to folks who ask me questions but I've noticed that anytime someone posts something contrary to one of your long-held beliefs, you dig your heels in and argue vehemently -- always making sure you have the last word. I've spent a few days replying to you off and on and it hasn't led anywhere productive, so I'm going to spend time discussing the case with folks who want to have an actual back and forth. I've already posted the info about the 10/21/75 incident and you're welcome to take it or leave it, but I'm done trying to explain the same points over and over. 

I am very open to having a back and forth and I have in fact said that my personal belief is that the 10.20.75 rape was probably the EAR.  I have also feel that the VR incidents fit the VR pattern.  It is just that they are not actual ransackings where the MO could be seen.  Rather they are sightings of suspicious people in yards.  This is a very important distinction.

It is possible that the VR became spooked after being spotted by the teen that night and went home to Sacramento to attack there.  We now know from the 1973 attacks that he was very active in the neighborhood where the 10.20.75 rape happened. After all he had shot and killed a man the month before.  It is also possible that suspicious person at the front door during the day was not the VR.  So I apologize if this is too tedious for you, but in my opinion it is very important to accurately describe this incidents and to not conflate them as actual verified VR ransackings which they aren't. 

Again I apologize if the back and forth has irritated you, that is not my intention. My intention is to accurately describe the events.  To me what I see is an offender that was from Rancho that moved to Visalia and sometimes returned home, before finally moving back home after a two year stint in Visalia.  This fits a typical pattern for someone in there early twenties who would make such a move for work or school. 

*  I completely disagree that this conversation has not been productive.  IMO it has proved that the working assumption should be that the 1973 guy and the VR are in fact one and the same.  That is a huge bit of new information for everyone to get their head around and a huge break for this case.  So I feel that this conversation is in fact extremely productive.

[redding2]

Mar 2, 2018 11:12:59 GMT attxlatt121 said:

I think stealing blue chip stamps AND leaving money is quite unusual. Every podcast/interview they always mention he wouldn’t steal money but steal “weird things like Bluechip stamps” if it was such a normal thing I doubt they would bother mentioning it the way they do.

I don’t think it was a unique MO but it wasn’t like every burglar always went straight for the Bluechip stamps in the house.

They are coupons for lamps and toasters for gods sake.  Who would risk being thrown in jail to steal coupons for ugly lamps?  Yes they are untraceable and yes have value, and yes Port found at least one newspaper article where someone else stole these stamps.  At the same time this is a fairly unique thing to steal.  And as you point out for years it has always been described as a unique element of his MO.  When Clark lays out the MO of the 1973 suspect it is a jaw dropping moment for this case.  With over a dozen overlapping MO factors including the blue chip stamps it is abundantly clear that the working assumption must be that the 1973 suspect and the VR are in fact one and the same.  And yes I am repeating myself, because this is a huge, huge deal, and a huge moment for this case.  Unfortunately it may take as long as ten years(based on the Maggiore's) for LE to fully acknowledge and to begin to act on this connection.  This is way I am posting so much on this issue.  We don't have ten years. 

[redding2]

Mar 2, 2018 11:17:21 GMT attxlatt121 said:

Yeah the strangest thing for me is that people are saying the 73 suspect sounds just like the EAR and that it could likely be him. Yet, the new suspect has more in common with the VR than the EAR. Why the disconnect? Is it only because he’s in Sacramento?

Wouldn’t it be more logical even to say oh this ‘73 suspect doesn’t really sound like the EAR, but it could be the VR. Anyway.

The only possible reason for the disconnect is human nature.  The same exact thing happened with the Maggiore's.  All of the evidence pointed to the EAR and it took 40 years for the Sacramento Sheriff's office to finally officially make the connection.  And only after the FBI publicly made the connection by putting the Maggiore sketch on their EAR flyer.  I am thrilled by the progress, and hopeful that they can speed up the rate at which they challenge their old assumptions in this case. Clark did in fact say that it was possible that the EAR and the VR were the same guy.  How long until he realizes that it is likely is hard to say.  The case is speeding up and with the FBI looking over his shoulder past assumptions will no longer go unquestioned. 

[redding2]

Mar 2, 2018 11:45:41 GMT attxlatt121 said:

Mar 2, 2018 11:37:54 GMT otiswasthegreatest said:

Who are the people behind the 12-26-76 podcast?

They don’t say and they seem pretty secretive. I guess they are some kind of criminologist, as they mention working on a case with LE where the suspect burned his computer and house down then shot himself in the head. This was because the police just went up to the man and said he suspected and asked for a dna sample.

My best guess is that they were paid by Clifton's team to put all of that together, but I find it odd that they are so secretive.