The Zodiac Killer

[batman]

Apr 27, 2017 10:03:23 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Apr 27, 2017 8:12:26 GMT batman said:

Right, the proponents of the Ross Macdonald theory will look at the various descriptions of the Zodiac killer and cherry pick the stuff that looks like their POI. OK, his face looks like the PH composite. But IIRC, these same people that described the face also said he was about five feet ten inches tall and weighed about 180. 

There were many descriptions of the Z by victims: Michael, Bryan, and Cecilia. They all said he was less than six feet tall. Then at PH you had the kids and Officer Fouke, also stating he was less than six feet tall.

Oh, but the sunbathers at LB saw some guy who MIGHT have been the Z, at a distance, and said he was six feet two. So that's the description that is obviously the correct one, since it's the only one that could have been Ross M.

Further hurting this theory is the fact that Ross M. can't be placed north of Santa Cruz, in his entire life.

To reject the most compelling composite of Zodiac (a.k.a - Paul Stine's murderer) has been happening for too long now. All because it doesn't look like the top favorite suspects. This has to be a problem of bias. There is no cherry picking the Paul Stine composite. An investigator really HAS to accept it. Why?

Well, look at what the alternative is. To reject that a group of young people living across the road who observed the scene (and reported it) for quite some time ALL got it wrong and two officers who drove by and observed a suspect coincidentally BOTH got it wrong and yet all of their composites still match? The alternative is of such low probability as to be dismissed. You would be talking about false memories and impressionable LE who adapted what the kids saw to their imagination or something.

The Paul Stine composite is the Zodiac killer.

It is modern sleuthers who going back into the case discovered Ross Sullivan based on the fact that the Riverside incident bares a strong resemblance to the Zodiac crimes. They find someone of interest who was investigated for the Cherri Jo Bates murder.
Then they find a picture. It looks like the Paul Stine composite. That's a big deal. Sleuthing him out is obviously of immense importance. The absence of evidence doesn't work against this POI. He is obviously fairly new to modern Zodiac research so we wouldn't expect to know everything about him, but what has been gathered so far is compelling.

How do you explain the "break-out story" coincidence? 

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2017 10:33:53 GMT batman said:

Apr 27, 2017 10:03:23 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Right, the proponents of the Ross Macdonald theory will look at the various descriptions of the Zodiac killer and cherry pick the stuff that looks like their POI. OK, his face looks like the PH composite. But IIRC, these same people that described the face also said he was about five feet ten inches tall and weighed about 180. 

There were many descriptions of the Z by victims: Michael, Bryan, and Cecilia. They all said he was less than six feet tall. Then at PH you had the kids and Officer Fouke, also stating he was less than six feet tall.

Oh, but the sunbathers at LB saw some guy who MIGHT have been the Z, at a distance, and said he was six feet two. So that's the description that is obviously the correct one, since it's the only one that could have been Ross M.

Further hurting this theory is the fact that Ross M. can't be placed north of Santa Cruz, in his entire life.

To reject the most compelling composite of Zodiac (a.k.a - Paul Stine's murderer) has been happening for too long now. All because it doesn't look like the top favorite suspects. This has to be a problem of bias. There is no cherry picking the Paul Stine composite. An investigator really HAS to accept it. Why?

Well, look at what the alternative is. To reject that a group of young people living across the road who observed the scene (and reported it) for quite some time ALL got it wrong and two officers who drove by and observed a suspect coincidentally BOTH got it wrong and yet all of their composites still match? The alternative is of such low probability as to be dismissed. You would be talking about false memories and impressionable LE who adapted what the kids saw to their imagination or something.

The Paul Stine composite is the Zodiac killer.

It is modern sleuthers who going back into the case discovered Ross Sullivan based on the fact that the Riverside incident bares a strong resemblance to the Zodiac crimes. They find someone of interest who was investigated for the Cherri Jo Bates murder.
Then they find a picture. It looks like the Paul Stine composite. That's a big deal. Sleuthing him out is obviously of immense importance. The absence of evidence doesn't work against this POI. He is obviously fairly new to modern Zodiac research so we wouldn't expect to know everything about him, but what has been gathered so far is compelling.

How do you explain the "break-out story" coincidence? 

(1) You act like a composite sketch is a photograph. No, it's a drawing by an artist based on subjective reports. They are often wrong. (2) A lot of people look something like that composite. (3) You are ignoring the ht. and wt. disparity. That's cherry-picking.

But good luck. Maybe Ross M. was the Z. and this will be established when they exhume his body and match his DNA with the envelopes. That probably won't happen, though, because the case is too weak to get a warrant and exhume the body.

[batman]

Apr 27, 2017 11:30:17 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Apr 27, 2017 10:33:53 GMT batman said:

To reject the most compelling composite of Zodiac (a.k.a - Paul Stine's murderer) has been happening for too long now. All because it doesn't look like the top favorite suspects. This has to be a problem of bias. There is no cherry picking the Paul Stine composite. An investigator really HAS to accept it. Why?

Well, look at what the alternative is. To reject that a group of young people living across the road who observed the scene (and reported it) for quite some time ALL got it wrong and two officers who drove by and observed a suspect coincidentally BOTH got it wrong and yet all of their composites still match? The alternative is of such low probability as to be dismissed. You would be talking about false memories and impressionable LE who adapted what the kids saw to their imagination or something.

The Paul Stine composite is the Zodiac killer.

It is modern sleuthers who going back into the case discovered Ross Sullivan based on the fact that the Riverside incident bares a strong resemblance to the Zodiac crimes. They find someone of interest who was investigated for the Cherri Jo Bates murder.
Then they find a picture. It looks like the Paul Stine composite. That's a big deal. Sleuthing him out is obviously of immense importance. The absence of evidence doesn't work against this POI. He is obviously fairly new to modern Zodiac research so we wouldn't expect to know everything about him, but what has been gathered so far is compelling.

How do you explain the "break-out story" coincidence? 

(1) You act like a composite sketch is a photograph. No, it's a drawing by an artist based on subjective reports. They are often wrong. (2) A lot of people look something like that composite. (3) You are ignoring the ht. and wt. disparity. That's cherry-picking.

But good luck. Maybe Ross M. was the Z. and this will be established when they exhume his body and match his DNA with the envelopes. That probably won't happen, though, because the case is too weak to get a warrant and exhume the body.

(1) None of those rebuttals can be used to explain how several different parties described the same person, one of the parties being LE. Saying composites aren't photographs doesn't explain how they both described the same person. Saying the reports are subjective doesn't explain how they both described the same person. Say they are often wrong doesn't explain how they both described the same person. What you are suggesting is that the Paul Stine original composite and LE update just coincidentally look the same by two parties who made the same mistakes. This is easily dismissed. It's an extremely low probability that two people would guess the same composite!

(2)Of course many people are going to look like the composite but not the usual Zodiac suspects. They are usually significantly different. Many people looking like Ted Bundy doesn't mean we shouldn't look at Ted Bundy who looks like a composite (which he did).

(3)What height disparity? A few inches of variation and you going to dismiss it on that?
 
You don't need to exhume Ross to be able to get a match. It can be done filial with family members. That would be enough to get a warrant for exhumation.


How do you explain the "break-out story" coincidence?

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2017 11:52:31 GMT batman said:

Apr 27, 2017 11:30:17 GMT @endoftheworld said:

(1) You act like a composite sketch is a photograph. No, it's a drawing by an artist based on subjective reports. They are often wrong. (2) A lot of people look something like that composite. (3) You are ignoring the ht. and wt. disparity. That's cherry-picking.

But good luck. Maybe Ross M. was the Z. and this will be established when they exhume his body and match his DNA with the envelopes. That probably won't happen, though, because the case is too weak to get a warrant and exhume the body.

(1) None of those rebuttals can be used to explain how several different parties described the same person, one of the parties being LE. Saying composites aren't photographs doesn't explain how they both described the same person. Saying the reports are subjective doesn't explain how they both described the same person. Say they are often wrong doesn't explain how they both described the same person. What you are suggesting is that the Paul Stine original composite and LE update just coincidentally look the same by two parties who made the same mistakes. This is easily dismissed. It's an extremely low probability that two people would guess the same composite!

(2)Of course many people are going to look like the composite but not the usual Zodiac suspects. They are usually significantly different. Many people looking like Ted Bundy doesn't mean we shouldn't look at Ted Bundy who looks like a composite (which he did).

(3)What height disparity? A few inches of variation and you going to dismiss it on that?
 
You don't need to exhume Ross to be able to get a match. It can be done filial with family members. That would be enough to get a warrant for exhumation.


How do you explain the "break-out story" coincidence?

(1) OK, good luck to you. Check the DNA and prove he's the Zodiac. 

(2) I've never heard of the break-out sequence.

[morf13]

batman,you can't reason with some people,you may wish to save your breath. According to Endoftheworld above, Ross is an awful suspect. It doesn't matter that Ross looks identical to the sketch or was the only suspect in Zodiac history known to be in the RCC Library where experts linked Zodiac's writing. His height is off, so let's just throw him out. Screw ruling him out via prints or DNA. @endoftheworld,there's something called 'Familial DNA' that can be used to rule out a suspect without digging them up, which you can't with Ross as he was cremated(you'd know that if you actually did you homework). Look it up,learn a little

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2017 13:08:07 GMT morf13 said:

batman ,you can't reason with some people,you may wish to save your breath. According to Endoftheworld above, Ross is an awful suspect. It doesn't matter that Ross looks identical to the sketch or was the only suspect in Zodiac history known to be in the RCC Library where experts linked Zodiac's writing. His height is off, so let's just throw him out. Screw ruling him out via prints or DNA. @endoftheworld ,there's something called 'Familial DNA' that can be used to rule out a suspect without digging them up, which you can't with Ross as he was cremated(you'd know that if you actually did you homework). Look it up,learn a little

I wish you the best of luck. Prove he's the Z using DNA. Vaya con Dios.

[Mitchell]

Apr 27, 2017 1:51:25 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 27, 2017 1:44:59 GMT @endoftheworld said:

You don't know it was the Z's writing in the Riverside library. There's no proof the Z killed CJB. Etc. The case for this guy is very weak, IMHO.

The state's best expert said it was zodiac's writing. FBI finding back him up. The Bates letter writer uses the word 'shall' and the word twitch/twich incorrectly, just as zodiac uses the same word and misspells it. Wants his letter published in the paper just like Z,states he made a call after the murder, just  like Z...Ross looks identical to the sketch and was in said library where the writing was found....and he's "very weak" You my friend are very funny. I'll take all of that stuff and the expert opinion of Sherwood Morril and the FBI over your opinion 24 hours a day,7 days a week

For you to call all of that "very weak" shows that you are not competent enough to know this case or are simply trolling,so I will simply ignore you from here on out

Also, it doesn't matter if Z killed Cheri or not. If the writing in her case is zodiac's that's what I am looking at as he may very well not have killed Cheri but still wrote the material

Handwriting comparison is subjective. It's not science. The FBI and LE in general have a checkered past where scientific scrutiny is applied to methodologies accepted as science.

www.iflscience.com/technology/fbi-admits-using-flawed-hair-evidence-trials/

www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html

archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/22/fbi_bullet_science_flawed_independent_review_warns/

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/04/fbi_s_flawed_forensics_expert_testimony_hair_analysis_bite_marks_fingerprints.html

If, in defiance of logic, we accept the assertion that a consistency is found between the handwriting in the letters Bates had to die, the desktop poem(which was signed by rh-unless the author was interrupted mid rhino or some other word that begins with those two letters), the writings of Zodiac, and that of Ross Sullivan then we must also give the same weight to linguistic analysis which is decidedly inconsistent among the known samples.

Ross was a really big guy. 6'2" and 260lbs is a center or mike line backer in the NFL and Sullivan would be even bigger than that because his weight was fat and not dense muscle tissue. If we consider the upper limits of Sullivan's speculated weight, 300lbs, now we're talking defensive tackle territory. That is an XXXL human being. None of the witness descriptions describe someone of that size. The composites do not suggest someone of that physical stature.

By all accounts Sullivan was very smelly. None of the victims described a stinky fellow. I hate to even discuss these things because there is zero evidence that Sullivan ever hurt anyone. He was a sick guy with a sad life who died very young and alone in what was probably a terrible place. We're simply adding insult to injury.

Can you find evidence of any violence in his past?

No offense intended but you seem too smart and analytical to be so sold on Sullivan being Z. I don't know one way or another whether he is or not. What I do know and can state with confidence is that there is lack of evidence that indicates that he is Zodiac and there seems to be several reasons to discount him. If possible, he should be excluded through DNA so we will know for sure.

A comparison can be made to Voigt and his arguments that Allen used a severed thumb to plant "fake clews" on Stine's cab after his fingerprints were found to not match. Or his insistence that Gaikowski was Z based on the assertions of a homeless and obviously mentally ill man that liked to communicate via crayon.

The only conclusion I can draw is that you need Sullivan to be Zodiac so that you can put the proverbial pin in the case and move on to greener pastures. A completely understandable position. It was hard to put down the 340 cipher after many years and admit to myself that it was most probably gibberish and if not, it was beyond my ability to solve it. I know the feeling.

[batman]

I think the concerned Riverdale library staff/student letter describes a dangerous individual called Ross Sullivan who is not to be messed with. He is stalking people. Scaring them. He gets done for indecent exposure after going mad and locking himself against a guy in a phone booth while nude. A lot of people in his circle are not only just scared witless of him but think he killed Bates and was the Zodiac, back then.

We know he was being investigated again even though they had all the details you had. So height didn't seem to be a factor for investigators asking for him to be followed up on again.

Since he is in the case files and was investigated I don't have a problem discussing him. He was convicted of the phone booth assault.

What so you make of the break out story connection?

[Mitchell]

Apr 27, 2017 23:54:31 GMT batman said:

I think the concerned Riverdale library staff/student letter describes a dangerous individual called Ross Sullivan who is not to be messed with. He is stalking people. Scaring them. He gets done for indecent exposure after going mad and locking himself against a guy in a phone booth while nude. A lot of people in his circle are not only just scared witless of him but think he killed Bates and was the Zodiac, back then.

We know he was being investigated again even though they had all the details you had. So height didn't seem to be a factor for investigators asking for him to be followed up on again.

Since he is in the case files and was investigated I don't have a problem discussing him. He was convicted of the phone booth assault.

What so you make of the break out story connection?

It's speculative and based on anecdotes 40 years after the fact.

Investigators rule people out. It's what they do. The cheapest way to do so is via DNA, which I think is great. I wish they could test the DNA of everyone who was in the library that night.

The evidence against Sullivan can be summed up thusly; creepy guy often found in library who gave folks a bad feeling. Everything is speculation our mountains built of mole hills to support an agenda.

[Mitchell]

Apr 27, 2017 23:54:31 GMT batman said:

I think the concerned Riverdale library staff/student letter describes a dangerous individual called Ross Sullivan who is not to be messed with. He is stalking people. Scaring them. He gets done for indecent exposure after going mad and locking himself against a guy in a phone booth while nude. A lot of people in his circle are not only just scared witless of him but think he killed Bates and was the Zodiac, back then.

We know he was being investigated again even though they had all the details you had. So height didn't seem to be a factor for investigators asking for him to be followed up on again.

Since he is in the case files and was investigated I don't have a problem discussing him. He was convicted of the phone booth assault.

What so you make of the break out story connection?

It's not a connection.

[travismcgee]

Hasn't his brother gone on record as saying he thought Ross was Zodiac? I don't know nearly as much about the case as most of you.

[morf13]

A)EXPERTS, the state's best,not some fly by night night course degree guy,along with the FBI too, place Zodiac in the RCC library via writing

B)Letters are mailed in the Cheri Jo Bates case, and those letters also identified later as being Zodiac's writing. The letters use the same odd,seldom used word & phrase choices that Zodiac used. The same misspellings

C)Ross knew Cheri Jo Bates

D)Ross looked identical to the Zodiac sketch

E)Ross's own brother, for reasons we do not know suspected Ross was Zodiac

F)Ross was violent he attacked a man in a phone booth, and entered an apartment without permission and threatened the people

For those reasons, he is a logical suspect. The only guy that can be linked to the writing in that library, and is identical to the sketch.

I can't go thru the stuff again about Ross, for those of you that are interested in him, here's a quick link:
zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=2300

For those of you that think the most logical suspects should be ruled out for 1 or 2 small details of height,etc,as opposed to actual prints or DNA ruling him out then I don't know what to tell you, but it scares me when I think of that kind of thinking in the EAR/ONS case. Either way, it doesn't matter to me if you like Ross as a suspect,I'll go on living my life. The one thing that bothers me is when people comment on suspects that they don't even know the facts about.

I've said it multiple times, I can't and won't say that Ross was the Zodiac until I can link him to Vallejo.

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 0:05:44 GMT travismcgee said:

Hasn't his brother gone on record as saying he thought Ross was Zodiac? I don't know nearly as much about the case as most of you.

Here's the quick synopsis. zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=2300

Yes,his dead brother told a friend that he was sure Ross was the Zodiac. We don't know what made him think this.

[batman]

Apr 28, 2017 0:01:55 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 27, 2017 23:54:31 GMT batman said:

I think the concerned Riverdale library staff/student letter describes a dangerous individual called Ross Sullivan who is not to be messed with. He is stalking people. Scaring them. He gets done for indecent exposure after going mad and locking himself against a guy in a phone booth while nude. A lot of people in his circle are not only just scared witless of him but think he killed Bates and was the Zodiac, back then.

We know he was being investigated again even though they had all the details you had. So height didn't seem to be a factor for investigators asking for him to be followed up on again.

Since he is in the case files and was investigated I don't have a problem discussing him. He was convicted of the phone booth assault.

What so you make of the break out story connection?

It's speculative and based on anecdotes 40 years after the fact.

Investigators rule people out. It's what they do. The cheapest way to do so is via DNA, which I think is great. I wish they could test the DNA of everyone who was in the library that night.

The evidence against Sullivan can be summed up thusly; creepy guy often found in library who gave folks a bad feeling. Everything is speculation our mountains built of mole hills to support an agenda.

I don't think there is any agenda here. www.zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html  If this is correct then it means the man Riverside had for the Cherri Jo Bates murder has been ruled out by DNA. So Riverside investigators got it wrong. They ruled out Ross. Did they get this right or wrong? The letters from the 'staff' say that the guy responsible for it is likely Ross Sullivan (they give their reasons why including the predicted changes of clothing). They even say he is scary enough to get himself an alibi by being threatening. That's what ruled Ross out. Not very solid is it? So yeah he is a creepy guy, but he has traits Zodiac displays, including attention to detailed lettering, and those 2 letters in themselves almost look like premonitions of what was to come in elements of the Zodiac crimes. 

So yes some stuff is 40 years after the fact, but that isn't, and there doesn't appear to be any rechecking confirmation when it was asked for. Anything could have happened like a better suspect surfacing and getting attention. We have seen that happen countless times before as well as the not so solid alibi problem.

Unlike the other Zodiac suspects, this one doesn't have many negatives, probably because more needs to be learned about him, but in the meantime what has turned out by hard work looks really good IMO.

I know the break out story isn't a connection as in a link with evidence has been established, but Ross certainly is rolling out plenty of stuff that makes one think that this could very well be the person they were after. There is no doubt that from his behavior that Ross was a very disturbed violent person who appears to have had many serious psychotic episodes, enough to be hospitalized.

morf13 has linked more stuff on RS than I thought existed a few weeks back and its compelling. Very compelling.

[Deleted]

Treasure Island, formerly The Treasury, was a chain of discount stores owned by J.C. Penney. Through an acquisition of the General Merchandise Company in 1962, J.C. Penney entered the discount department store market by launching The Treasury.
The General Merchandise Company, which began as Treasure Island.The roof architecture of The Treasury and Treasure Island stores was unique, having a zig-zag pattern that was very prominent both inside and outside. This is reflected in the store logo."
Reminds me of zig zag patterns on shoes among other things.

Delores “Dee” Mrozek married Jack Mrozek Sr. in 1972. He survives. Dee's sister in law Ruth was a nurse.

"Mrs. Mrozek " Dee" worked at Treasure Island Department Store and Mangino’s Pizza as a clerk." Someone known only as Dee had supposedly given a ride to a women who will then end up being murdered. She was dropped at a bar by "Dee".


Miss Gidley one of 4 females, LE thought might be the victims of Zodiac, had served four years in the Air Force.
She was discharged at Hamilton Air Force Base in
Marin County early last year. San Francisco Chronicle
Thursday, July 19, 1973

"McKenna disclosed yesterday that Miss Gidley had
written her parents on June 8 that she was going to
San Francisco from Idaho to be maid of honor at the
wedding of Collette Mrozek, of Novato, whom she had
met at Hamilton AFB.

But Miss Mrozek told police yesterday that she
has no plans to be married, had not asked Miss Gidley
to be a member of a wedding party, and indeed, had not
corresponded with her for several months."

Miss Mrozek gets married and they buy a home on Dublin Ave. in Citrus Heights, Sacramento.
Around 1990 a man, maybe a brother of this women is charged with the murder of a young woman, he shot her twice in the back of the head! A lot of these people are not around anymore. I wonder if any family stories were passed down through the years?