The Zodiac Killer

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 0:45:52 GMT batman said:

Apr 28, 2017 0:01:55 GMT Mitchell said:

It's speculative and based on anecdotes 40 years after the fact.

Investigators rule people out. It's what they do. The cheapest way to do so is via DNA, which I think is great. I wish they could test the DNA of everyone who was in the library that night.

The evidence against Sullivan can be summed up thusly; creepy guy often found in library who gave folks a bad feeling. Everything is speculation our mountains built of mole hills to support an agenda.

I don't think there is any agenda here. www.zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html  If this is correct then it means the man Riverside had for the Cherri Jo Bates murder has been ruled out by DNA. So Riverside investigators got it wrong. They ruled out Ross. Did they get this right or wrong? The letters from the 'staff' say that the guy responsible for it is likely Ross Sullivan (they give their reasons why including the predicted changes of clothing). They even say he is scary enough to get himself an alibi by being threatening. That's what ruled Ross out. Not very solid is it? So yeah he is a creepy guy, but he has traits Zodiac displays, including attention to detailed lettering, and those 2 letters in themselves almost look like premonitions of what was to come in elements of the Zodiac crimes. 

So yes some stuff is 40 years after the fact, but that isn't, and there doesn't appear to be any rechecking confirmation when it was asked for. Anything could have happened like a better suspect surfacing and getting attention. We have seen that happen countless times before as well as the not so solid alibi problem.

Unlike the other Zodiac suspects, this one doesn't have many negatives, probably because more needs to be learned about him, but in the meantime what has turned out by hard work looks really good IMO.

I know the break out story isn't a connection as in a link with evidence has been established, but Ross certainly is rolling out plenty of stuff that makes one think that this could very well be the person they were after. There is no doubt that from his behavior that Ross was a very disturbed violent person who appears to have had many serious psychotic episodes, enough to be hospitalized.

morf13 has linked more stuff on RS than I thought existed a few weeks back and its compelling. Very compelling.

batman, Riverside PD's favorite suspect did NOT match the DNA, yet they still are hung up on him

[Mitchell]

Apr 28, 2017 0:45:52 GMT batman said:

Apr 28, 2017 0:01:55 GMT Mitchell said:

It's speculative and based on anecdotes 40 years after the fact.

Investigators rule people out. It's what they do. The cheapest way to do so is via DNA, which I think is great. I wish they could test the DNA of everyone who was in the library that night.

The evidence against Sullivan can be summed up thusly; creepy guy often found in library who gave folks a bad feeling. Everything is speculation our mountains built of mole hills to support an agenda.

I don't think there is any agenda here. www.zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html  If this is correct then it means the man Riverside had for the Cherri Jo Bates murder has been ruled out by DNA. So Riverside investigators got it wrong. They ruled out Ross. Did they get this right or wrong? The letters from the 'staff' say that the guy responsible for it is likely Ross Sullivan (they give their reasons why including the predicted changes of clothing). They even say he is scary enough to get himself an alibi by being threatening. That's what ruled Ross out. Not very solid is it? So yeah he is a creepy guy, but he has traits Zodiac displays, including attention to detailed lettering, and those 2 letters in themselves almost look like premonitions of what was to come in elements of the Zodiac crimes. 

So yes some stuff is 40 years after the fact, but that isn't, and there doesn't appear to be any rechecking confirmation when it was asked for. Anything could have happened like a better suspect surfacing and getting attention. We have seen that happen countless times before as well as the not so solid alibi problem.

Unlike the other Zodiac suspects, this one doesn't have many negatives, probably because more needs to be learned about him, but in the meantime what has turned out by hard work looks really good IMO.

I know the break out story isn't a connection as in a link with evidence has been established, but Ross certainly is rolling out plenty of stuff that makes one think that this could very well be the person they were after. There is no doubt that from his behavior that Ross was a very disturbed violent person who appears to have had many serious psychotic episodes, enough to be hospitalized.

morf13 has linked more stuff on RS than I thought existed a few weeks back and its compelling. Very compelling.

It's cool. I don't want to argue about it. I stated my opinion and like to think it is objective. No one would like to see resolution to that case more than me. Sullivan is interesting until we learn about him.

It's a reach to connect Sullivan to either the letters or the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.

It's another reach to connect the murder of Bates and the letters in that case to Zodiac.

It is frustratingly hard to establish a connection between all four: Zodiac, Bates letters, Bates, and Sullivan.

Physical descriptions are often wrong. Flawed. With Zodiac they are pretty consistent. Especially in Presidio Heights. The changes added by Foulke were very subtle. It's a challenge to imagine that everyone who saw him was mistaken about his size. It is true that we cannot say with any certainty what size Sullivan was at that time. Those who support the Sullivan as Zodiac theory can't either. Because...

A connection between Sullivan and the areas that Zodiac operated in doesn't exist at this time.

The phone booth incident is constantly referenced and identified as an assault. Wasn't a man merely chased into a phone booth by another obese naked man?

Just feels like an ALA redux with less back story.

He should definitely have his DNA compared and be ruled out. I can't help but feel sorry for him. It's a very sad and lonely life he must have lived. With his history of mental illness he probably spent a great deal of time anxious and scared. The stories about him showing up to the common area of RCC called the "pit" even after he no longer attended and sitting quietly alone screams of a desperate need for human contact. By published accounts the only person who could tolerate him was a little old lady.

He may have been a bit odd and misunderstood but a lot of that may be due to being over medicated for his mental illness. Sounds like a cocktail of thorazine, lithium, and possibly vallium. Heavy people are often more difficult to accurately dose.

He just sounds like a tragic figure and a really sad guy. Ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe, and now you're really in the total animal soup of time—

[batman]

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him. Now we know that's wrong, and dismiss it, is there any reason to think Riverdale isn't linked?

The Riverside letter, 'Bates had to Die' with the Z type squiggle at the end was addressed with double postage like the Zodiac letters. All the same nonsense that happened with the Zodiac letters was appearing first here at Riverside. The writer even says that there will be more.

morf13 said this from an older forum post and again here...

“Some I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream + twich and squirm”
Both writers misspell TWITCH the same way as TWICH. And what are the chances of the confession writer using BOTH twitch & Squirm in the same letter, and Zodiac using the same two words in a single line?

Then there is the desk poem. Zodiac has tried his hand at poetry. Usually pretty dark stuff, like the desk poem. Who was the POI at Riverdale writing morbid poems and freaking people out?

One finds its very hard to reject that here we are seeing a precursor developmental process where the killer is gradually finding and probing how they will go about assaulting society. If it was directional, that direction would be so much like the Zodiacs as to be almost too obvious.

What is the evidence against the Zodiac murdering Bates? The suspect was supposed to be... but he is ruled out by DNA. So what is left? Nothing.

[jackydee]

Apr 25, 2017 19:21:35 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Apr 25, 2017 16:51:28 GMT brixelbracken said:

That FBI endorsement wasn't much more than lukewarm..."may be the work of one writer" isn't exactly definitive.

And what do you say to the many, including some law enforcement, who think Sherwood got it wrong and the desktop poem reads more like a suicidal girl's writing than that of a psychopath getting ready to pop.

Thrill me with your acumen, Mike.

Well, that's significant if the FBI endorsement was not really an endorsement. Anyway, when he says "most LE believe" such and such, he's just asking us to take his word for that. In reality "most LE" today don't know or care about the Zodiac.
 

I agree. I am not impressed by any of the suspects. I don't think LE got anywhere close to identifying the zodiac let alone identifying a strong suspect(apart from Arthur Leigh Allen who looked a reasonable suspect for a few years).

[jackydee]

Apr 26, 2017 22:08:08 GMT travismcgee said:

Apr 26, 2017 17:53:43 GMT batman said:

I think the best suspect for Zodiac is Ross Sullivan from the Riverdale library who told people there he broke out of a mental hospital, like Zodiac told some victims he broke out of a prison, and who is perfect match for the Stine composite.

Have any of you ever read the letter the Riverdale library staff/students sent to LE about him?

The library staff wrote a letter of who their suspect was and it wasn't the boyfriend LE had in mind.

Page 1 
Page 2 

Page 1 5th paragraph has breaking out of a psychiatric hospital just like the Lake Berryessa prison Zodiac story.

An alibi helped clear Ross for Riverdale.

Ross has the widows peak and all.

Ross died in the late 1970s.


The problem with Ross is that he vanishes during the Zodiac crimes and letters and turns up later and dies in a psychiatric hospital.

The poster above you, Morf13, is basically the person who attributed Sullivan to being Zodiac.

I meant to give Morf13 my appreciation for his had work earlier. I think he presents his reasoned information(which I often disagree with) well, without some of the absolute bullcrap we get with other zodiac suspects.

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 5:45:43 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 28, 2017 0:45:52 GMT batman said:

I don't think there is any agenda here. www.zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html  If this is correct then it means the man Riverside had for the Cherri Jo Bates murder has been ruled out by DNA. So Riverside investigators got it wrong. They ruled out Ross. Did they get this right or wrong? The letters from the 'staff' say that the guy responsible for it is likely Ross Sullivan (they give their reasons why including the predicted changes of clothing). They even say he is scary enough to get himself an alibi by being threatening. That's what ruled Ross out. Not very solid is it? So yeah he is a creepy guy, but he has traits Zodiac displays, including attention to detailed lettering, and those 2 letters in themselves almost look like premonitions of what was to come in elements of the Zodiac crimes. 

So yes some stuff is 40 years after the fact, but that isn't, and there doesn't appear to be any rechecking confirmation when it was asked for. Anything could have happened like a better suspect surfacing and getting attention. We have seen that happen countless times before as well as the not so solid alibi problem.

Unlike the other Zodiac suspects, this one doesn't have many negatives, probably because more needs to be learned about him, but in the meantime what has turned out by hard work looks really good IMO.

I know the break out story isn't a connection as in a link with evidence has been established, but Ross certainly is rolling out plenty of stuff that makes one think that this could very well be the person they were after. There is no doubt that from his behavior that Ross was a very disturbed violent person who appears to have had many serious psychotic episodes, enough to be hospitalized.

morf13 has linked more stuff on RS than I thought existed a few weeks back and its compelling. Very compelling.

It's cool. I don't want to argue about it. I stated my opinion and like to think it is objective. No one would like to see resolution to that case more than me. Sullivan is interesting until we learn about him.

It's a reach to connect Sullivan to either the letters or the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.

It's another reach to connect the murder of Bates and the letters in that case to Zodiac.

It is frustratingly hard to establish a connection between all four: Zodiac, Bates letters, Bates, and Sullivan.

Physical descriptions are often wrong. Flawed. With Zodiac they are pretty consistent. Especially in Presidio Heights. The changes added by Foulke were very subtle. It's a challenge to imagine that everyone who saw him was mistaken about his size. It is true that we cannot say with any certainty what size Sullivan was at that time. Those who support the Sullivan as Zodiac theory can't either. Because...

A connection between Sullivan and the areas that Zodiac operated in doesn't exist at this time.

The phone booth incident is constantly referenced and identified as an assault. Wasn't a man merely chased into a phone booth by another obese naked man?

Just feels like an ALA redux with less back story.

He should definitely have his DNA compared and be ruled out. I can't help but feel sorry for him. It's a very sad and lonely life he must have lived. With his history of mental illness he probably spent a great deal of time anxious and scared. The stories about him showing up to the common area of RCC called the "pit" even after he no longer attended and sitting quietly alone screams of a desperate need for human contact. By published accounts the only person who could tolerate him was a little old lady.

He may have been a bit odd and misunderstood but a lot of that may be due to being over medicated for his mental illness. Sounds like a cocktail of thorazine, lithium, and possibly vallium. Heavy people are often more difficult to accurately dose.

He just sounds like a tragic figure and a really sad guy. Ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe, and now you're really in the total animal soup of time—

Mitchell, I hate to say it, but you just don't know what you are talking about. You keep saying, "it's a reach to connect the Bates letters to Zodiac". It's not! The state's top writing expert, in charge of the entire zodiac letter examination,with 40 years of experience, linked the letters. The FBI examination backed him up. Sherwood Morrill's opinions, carried weight in courts of law, and people were convicted or cleared of crimes in part due to his findings. The Bates letters themselves, which many of us have examined word for word, use the same choice of odd words(not used by many Americans),the same phrases,and the same misspellings that Zodiac used. The author wants the letters published, the he says he made a call to police after the murder,all of this stuff all screams Zodiac when taken as a whole.

The most frustrating thing in this case is when uniformed, untrained people like yourself, think they know better than trained experts with years of experience. It's laughable

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 7:06:52 GMT batman said:

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him. Now we know that's wrong, and dismiss it, is there any reason to think Riverdale isn't linked?

The Riverside letter, 'Bates had to Die' with the Z type squiggle at the end was addressed with double postage like the Zodiac letters. All the same nonsense that happened with the Zodiac letters was appearing first here at Riverside. The writer even says that there will be more.

morf13 said this from an older forum post and again here...

“Some I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream + twich and squirm”
Both writers misspell TWITCH the same way as TWICH. And what are the chances of the confession writer using BOTH twitch & Squirm in the same letter, and Zodiac using the same two words in a single line?

Then there is the desk poem. Zodiac has tried his hand at poetry. Usually pretty dark stuff, like the desk poem. Who was the POI at Riverdale writing morbid poems and freaking people out?

One finds its very hard to reject that here we are seeing a precursor developmental process where the killer is gradually finding and probing how they will go about assaulting society. If it was directional, that direction would be so much like the Zodiacs as to be almost too obvious.

What is the evidence against the Zodiac murdering Bates? The suspect was supposed to be... but he is ruled out by DNA. So what is left? Nothing.

batman you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just give up on trying to convince the nay sayers to understand reason, some people can't be reasoned with

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2017 10:28:30 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 28, 2017 7:06:52 GMT batman said:

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him. Now we know that's wrong, and dismiss it, is there any reason to think Riverdale isn't linked?

The Riverside letter, 'Bates had to Die' with the Z type squiggle at the end was addressed with double postage like the Zodiac letters. All the same nonsense that happened with the Zodiac letters was appearing first here at Riverside. The writer even says that there will be more.

morf13 said this from an older forum post and again here...

“Some I shall tie over ant hills and watch them scream + twich and squirm”
Both writers misspell TWITCH the same way as TWICH. And what are the chances of the confession writer using BOTH twitch & Squirm in the same letter, and Zodiac using the same two words in a single line?

Then there is the desk poem. Zodiac has tried his hand at poetry. Usually pretty dark stuff, like the desk poem. Who was the POI at Riverdale writing morbid poems and freaking people out?

One finds its very hard to reject that here we are seeing a precursor developmental process where the killer is gradually finding and probing how they will go about assaulting society. If it was directional, that direction would be so much like the Zodiacs as to be almost too obvious.

What is the evidence against the Zodiac murdering Bates? The suspect was supposed to be... but he is ruled out by DNA. So what is left? Nothing.

batman you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just give up on trying to convince the nay sayers to understand reason, some people can't be reasoned with

OK, go ahead and get your case proven with familial DNA, or exhume the corpse. When will this happen?

Is there anybody in current LE that is on board with your theory?

[batman]

I wonder how the Bates family feel about LE still saying it was their suspect despite DNA clearing them? What do the Bates family think about this Ross situation? Do they even know about it? At the end of the day victim families can be the ones to drive home a need for closure, which means, taking proposals like Ross and doing the DNA test by pressuring the DA.

Do we even know if the Riverside DNA has been compared to the Zodiac ones?

Having said that, the Zodiac DNA is 50/50, but if Ross murdered Bates then that is enough for me to say he was the Zodiac.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2017 11:09:44 GMT batman said:

I wonder how the Bates family feel about LE still saying it was their suspect despite DNA clearing them? What do the Bates family think about this Ross situation? Do they even know about it? At the end of the day victim families can be the ones to drive home a need for closure, which means, taking proposals like Ross and doing the DNA test by pressuring the DA.

Do we even know if the Riverside DNA has been compared to the Zodiac ones?

Having said that, the Zodiac DNA is 50/50, but if Ross murdered Bates then that is enough for me to say he was the Zodiac.

Was this guy ever physically north of Santa Cruz?

[batman]

Apr 28, 2017 12:06:42 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Apr 28, 2017 11:09:44 GMT batman said:

I wonder how the Bates family feel about LE still saying it was their suspect despite DNA clearing them? What do the Bates family think about this Ross situation? Do they even know about it? At the end of the day victim families can be the ones to drive home a need for closure, which means, taking proposals like Ross and doing the DNA test by pressuring the DA.

Do we even know if the Riverside DNA has been compared to the Zodiac ones?

Having said that, the Zodiac DNA is 50/50, but if Ross murdered Bates then that is enough for me to say he was the Zodiac.

Was this guy ever physically north of Santa Cruz?

For the portion of his life researchers are interested in, there isn't enough to say where he was at all. North of SC, Antarctic, Europe, Mars.

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 10:51:15 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Apr 28, 2017 10:28:30 GMT morf13 said:

batman you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just give up on trying to convince the nay sayers to understand reason, some people can't be reasoned with

OK, go ahead and get your case proven with familial DNA, or exhume the corpse. When will this happen?

Is there anybody in current LE that is on board with your theory?

Why do you keep saying,"EXHUME THE CORPSE" That's the problem I see, people want to have an informed opinion about Ross or any other aspect of the Zodiac case, or Cheri's case. Try to read more and inform yourself. ROSS WAS CREMATED, I have said this multiple times. Familial DNA is what can rule him out. 

I can't speak about what's going on behind the scenes as far as suspects & DNA testing, all I can say is,stuff is being done. Trust me if Ross is matched to Zodiac or ruled out as Zodiac, I will tell you as soon as I know. I have put the offer out to Ross's brother that I would pay for any DNA testing. Instead of wanting to prove all  of us wrong, his brother simply dismissed us all as crazy. I say, clear your brother's name once and for all,and if I am wrong, I will scream it from the highest rooftop and then move on

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 12:13:29 GMT batman said:

Apr 28, 2017 12:06:42 GMT @endoftheworld said:

Was this guy ever physically north of Santa Cruz?

For the portion of his life researchers are interested in, there isn't enough to say where he was at all. North of SC, Antarctic, Europe, Mars.

We know Ross was in Santa Cruz in 1967 to mid 1968. We know he died there in 1977. According to the death cert, Ross lived in Santa Cruz for the previous 3 years back to 1974. Doing the math, that leaves late 68, to 1974 as the time we lose track of Ross,which coincidentally or not, is when Zodiac was killing & mailing letters. 

Ross's own Brother thought he was Zodiac. Why would he think that if Ross had always lived all the way in Santa Cruz? His brother had some reasons for suspecting him. 

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2017 13:49:55 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 28, 2017 10:51:15 GMT @endoftheworld said:

OK, go ahead and get your case proven with familial DNA, or exhume the corpse. When will this happen?

Is there anybody in current LE that is on board with your theory?

Why do you keep saying,"EXHUME THE CORPSE" That's the problem I see, people want to have an informed opinion about Ross or any other aspect of the Zodiac case, or Cheri's case. Try to read more and inform yourself. ROSS WAS CREMATED, I have said this multiple times. Familial DNA is what can rule him out. 

I can't speak about what's going on behind the scenes as far as suspects & DNA testing, all I can say is,stuff is being done. Trust me if Ross is matched to Zodiac or ruled out as Zodiac, I will tell you as soon as I know. I have put the offer out to Ross's brother that I would pay for any DNA testing. Instead of wanting to prove all  of us wrong, his brother simply dismissed us all as crazy. I say, clear your brother's name once and for all,and if I am wrong, I will scream it from the highest rooftop and then move on

With all due respect--and I do respect you, Morf for running a good Z website and letting people express their opinions, whatever they might be---there is a simple reason why people don't study the Ross theory in depth. Speaking for myself, and I'm sure there are others in this category, it's because a quick glance is all it takes to exclude him as a suspect. He's too tall, too heavy, and apparently never ventured north of Santa Cruz. Also I'm not interested in what happened in Riverside because I don't think the Z killed CJB. 

But I could be wrong. Good luck to you in making your case to LE. Is there a reward?

[morf13]

No reward in the case