The Zodiac Killer

[Mitchell]

Apr 28, 2017 10:24:38 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 28, 2017 5:45:43 GMT Mitchell said:

It's cool. I don't want to argue about it. I stated my opinion and like to think it is objective. No one would like to see resolution to that case more than me. Sullivan is interesting until we learn about him.

It's a reach to connect Sullivan to either the letters or the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.

It's another reach to connect the murder of Bates and the letters in that case to Zodiac.

It is frustratingly hard to establish a connection between all four: Zodiac, Bates letters, Bates, and Sullivan.

Physical descriptions are often wrong. Flawed. With Zodiac they are pretty consistent. Especially in Presidio Heights. The changes added by Foulke were very subtle. It's a challenge to imagine that everyone who saw him was mistaken about his size. It is true that we cannot say with any certainty what size Sullivan was at that time. Those who support the Sullivan as Zodiac theory can't either. Because...

A connection between Sullivan and the areas that Zodiac operated in doesn't exist at this time.

The phone booth incident is constantly referenced and identified as an assault. Wasn't a man merely chased into a phone booth by another obese naked man?

Just feels like an ALA redux with less back story.

He should definitely have his DNA compared and be ruled out. I can't help but feel sorry for him. It's a very sad and lonely life he must have lived. With his history of mental illness he probably spent a great deal of time anxious and scared. The stories about him showing up to the common area of RCC called the "pit" even after he no longer attended and sitting quietly alone screams of a desperate need for human contact. By published accounts the only person who could tolerate him was a little old lady.

He may have been a bit odd and misunderstood but a lot of that may be due to being over medicated for his mental illness. Sounds like a cocktail of thorazine, lithium, and possibly vallium. Heavy people are often more difficult to accurately dose.

He just sounds like a tragic figure and a really sad guy. Ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe, and now you're really in the total animal soup of time—

Mitchell, I hate to say it, but you just don't know what you are talking about. You keep saying, "it's a reach to connect the Bates letters to Zodiac". It's not! The state's top writing expert, in charge of the entire zodiac letter examination,with 40 years of experience, linked the letters. The FBI examination backed him up. Sherwood Morrill's opinions, carried weight in courts of law, and people were convicted or cleared of crimes in part due to his findings. The Bates letters themselves, which many of us have examined word for word, use the same choice of odd words(not used by many Americans),the same phrases,and the same misspellings that Zodiac used. The author wants the letters published, the he says he made a call to police after the murder,all of this stuff all screams Zodiac when taken as a whole.

The most frustrating thing in this case is when uniformed, untrained people like yourself, think they know better than trained experts with years of experience. It's laughable

I am not uninformed. All you have is a shaky handwriting comparison which is a subjective psuedoscience. There is nothing else. As I said, linguistically the writings are far from similar.

[Mitchell]

Apr 28, 2017 7:06:52 GMT batman said:

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him.

Who is this straw man you reference?

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 21:47:49 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 28, 2017 10:24:38 GMT morf13 said:

Mitchell, I hate to say it, but you just don't know what you are talking about. You keep saying, "it's a reach to connect the Bates letters to Zodiac". It's not! The state's top writing expert, in charge of the entire zodiac letter examination,with 40 years of experience, linked the letters. The FBI examination backed him up. Sherwood Morrill's opinions, carried weight in courts of law, and people were convicted or cleared of crimes in part due to his findings. The Bates letters themselves, which many of us have examined word for word, use the same choice of odd words(not used by many Americans),the same phrases,and the same misspellings that Zodiac used. The author wants the letters published, the he says he made a call to police after the murder,all of this stuff all screams Zodiac when taken as a whole.

The most frustrating thing in this case is when uniformed, untrained people like yourself, think they know better than trained experts with years of experience. It's laughable

I am not uninformed. All you have is a shaky handwriting comparison which is a subjective psuedoscience. There is nothing else. As I said, linguistically the writings are far from similar.

No, I have a respected Document examiner, the FBI backing him up, and above all, I have COMMON SENSE (click the pic below)

Attachment Deleted

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 21:52:30 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 28, 2017 7:06:52 GMT batman said:

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him.

Who is this straw man you reference?

Riverisde PD had a suspect, they refused to give him up on him for decades. Finally,DNA from hair in Cheri's hand excluded him. They still refuse to give up on him

[Mitchell]

Apr 28, 2017 23:43:43 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 28, 2017 21:52:30 GMT Mitchell said:

Who is this straw man you reference?

Riverisde PD had a suspect, they refused to give him up on him for decades. Finally,DNA from hair in Cheri's hand excluded him. They still refuse to give up on him

I wasn't referring to the suspect but the straw man fallacy constructed by Batman.

[morf13]

Apr 28, 2017 23:50:00 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 28, 2017 23:43:43 GMT morf13 said:

Riverisde PD had a suspect, they refused to give him up on him for decades. Finally,DNA from hair in Cheri's hand excluded him. They still refuse to give up on him

I wasn't referring to the suspect but the straw man fallacy constructed by Batman.

I missed the mention of the Straw man

[Mitchell]

Apr 28, 2017 23:41:53 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 28, 2017 21:47:49 GMT Mitchell said:

I am not uninformed. All you have is a shaky handwriting comparison which is a subjective psuedoscience. There is nothing else. As I said, linguistically the writings are far from similar.

No, I have a respected Document examiner, the FBI backing him up, and above all, I have COMMON SENSE (click the pic below)

View Attachment

You're not going to get very far by repeatedly attacking my intelligence and asserting that I lack common sense. It's silly and childish. If you want to attack the intelligence of others instead of their ideas, as you have an extensive history of doing, you have your own message board at which you are free to do so. We do ideas here and if you have nothing substantial to use as a foundation for this baseless theory, it's probably not a good one.

A "respected document examiner" is simply one you agree with. I could throw a rock and hit a dozen who would provide an opposing view. It's subjective and it is not science.

If we applied your view of the witness descriptions in the Zodiac case as they apply to Sullivan to possible suspects in the EAR/ONS case, we'd need to broaden the physical characteristics to include guys that were 6'4" and weighed 250lbs.

Geographically speaking, EAR/ONS suspects never even need step foot in California to be valid. According to your reasoning as it pertains to Sullivan as Zodiac, that is.

An EAR/ONS suspect need not have ever committed an act of violence or have a criminal history of any kind, according to your logic.

All that is needed to be a good EAR/ONS suspect, according to your reasoning, is somewhat similar handwriting and the stigma of not fitting in. About sums it up.

[morf13]

Apr 29, 2017 0:11:01 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 28, 2017 23:41:53 GMT morf13 said:

No, I have a respected Document examiner, the FBI backing him up, and above all, I have COMMON SENSE (click the pic below)

You're not going to get very far by repeatedly attacking my intelligence and asserting that I lack common sense. It's silly and childish. If you want to attack the intelligence of others instead of their ideas, as you have an extensive history of doing, you have your own message board at which you are free to do so. We do ideas here and if you have nothing substantial to use as a foundation for this baseless theory, it's probably not a good one.

A "respected document examiner" is simply one you agree with. I could throw a rock and hit a dozen who would provide an opposing view. It's subjective and it is not science.

If we applied your view of the witness descriptions in the Zodiac case as they apply to Sullivan to possible suspects in the EAR/ONS case, we'd need to broaden the physical characteristics to include guys that were 6'4" and weighed 250lbs.

Geographically speaking, EAR/ONS suspects never even need step foot in California to be valid. According to your reasoning as it pertains to Sullivan as Zodiac, that is.

An EAR/ONS suspect need not have ever committed an act of violence or have a criminal history of any kind, according to your logic.

All that is needed to be a good EAR/ONS suspect, according to your reasoning, is somewhat similar handwriting and the stigma of not fitting in. About sums it up.

Mitchell , I'm not trying to get anywhere with you...in fact, from this point on I won't be addressing you. Did you look at the pic I posted or not. I didn't see you writing anything about it? I'll leave off my last communication with you asking for you to explain away what you see. If you don't see what's obviously there looking right at you, then I simply do not know what to say



Attachment Deleted

[Mitchell]

I've been looking at that stuff for over twenty years. There is nothing new about what you are proposing. Greysmith made the same connections in his book in 1987 and the press at the time.

They used a couple of the same words. You found one instance of a lower case "f". Big whoop. Stop the presses. Hardly conclusive.

What's any of that have to do with Sullivan?

[morf13]

Apr 29, 2017 0:32:31 GMT Mitchell said:

I've been looking at that stuff for over twenty years. There is nothing new about what you are proposing. Greysmith made the same connections in his book in 1987 and the press at the time.

They used a couple of the same words. You found one instance of a lower case "f". Big whoop. Stop the presses. Hardly conclusive.

What's any of that have to do with Sullivan?

Gotcha, I wasn't mentioning Sullivan here. But if somebody is to accept a zodiac connection to the bates case writing and that library, then they would have to look in that library for suspects,and it makes sense to look at suspects that look identical to the zodiac sketch, which Sullivan is one.....in 50 years, I don't know of any others, but if somebody knows of another,I'm all ears.


Anyhow Mitchell, adios & good luck

[Roy]

If EARONS is ever found (or a very solid case) - this same sort of - spinning in circles thing - will surely happen. Too bad. But I have been entertained by the recent back and forth...Elvis is still alive and so is Tupac. I appreciate the nice summaries for Ross and the Z connection. The composite is so solid.

It really breaks my heart what happened to Cheri Jo.

Pity that his brother wont step up and help out. Not that it matters, but is there Z dna to compare to?

[batman]

Apr 29, 2017 0:08:03 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 28, 2017 23:50:00 GMT Mitchell said:

I wasn't referring to the suspect but the straw man fallacy constructed by Batman.

I missed the mention of the Straw man

Apparently to point out that the Riverside suspect has been cleared by DNA but Riverside PD still believe its him, is a straw man and a fallacious argument and irrelevant to the Zodiac case.

Imagine for all that time, the Bate's family, who received those awful letters, was told by Riverside that they had their man but couldn't press charges due to lack of evidence. Then, decades later, after Riverside is adamant about it being this guy, we find out that they have been cleared by DNA, that the Bate's family has been misled by investigators and worst of all, that Riverside can't be considered competent on the matter as they are rejecting science today.

Handwriting analysis isn't a science but it doesn't have to be to see that similarities in misspellings that stand out between the Bates communication and the Zodiac letters.



 

[Mitchell]

Apr 29, 2017 7:57:43 GMT batman said:

Apr 29, 2017 0:08:03 GMT morf13 said:

I missed the mention of the Straw man

Apparently to point out that the Riverside suspect has been cleared by DNA but Riverside PD still believe its him, is a straw man and a fallacious argument and irrelevant to the Zodiac case.

That is an inaccurate statement. What you did there would be another straw man.

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him.

You attempt to know my position and make my argument for me. Who are these people you reference? I have never come across anyone that held the view you propose outside of what has been the reported opinion of the local Riverside investigators.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. I doubt the Riverside connection because there is no proof it exists. The desk-top poem is trivial junk that has nothing to with anything. The handwritten letters are different. Z never typed a letter like The Confession. Regarding the MO, Z never attempted ruse by disabling a car. He always came prepared. He gave himself every advantage. Unsuspecting kids in a car blinded by flashlight in a remote location. Unsuspecting couple in an isolated location held at bay with gun and tied with pre-cut cord prior to being stabbed. Seated behind unsuspecting cab driver armed with gun.

Fighting a woman in a parking lot armed only with a pocket knife is a far cry from the planned attacks orchestrated by Zodiac.

This doesn't mean that Zodiac couldn't be involved in some way. There is simply a lack of conclusive evidence suggesting his involvement. If an investigation into a suspect were to organically lead to Riverside, that's one thing, starting in Riverside with so many question marks regarding the linkage is another thing all together. It erects hurdles where there need be none.

So, in my opinion, including Bates as a victim hurts the case more than it helps. However, if one were to look at Bates murder as a stand alone event and develops a suspect free of any Zodiac related bias, that would be worthwhile and could potentially lead somewhere.

[Mitchell]

Apr 29, 2017 0:37:11 GMT morf13 said:

Apr 29, 2017 0:32:31 GMT Mitchell said:

I've been looking at that stuff for over twenty years. There is nothing new about what you are proposing. Greysmith made the same connections in his book in 1987 and the press at the time.

They used a couple of the same words. You found one instance of a lower case "f". Big whoop. Stop the presses. Hardly conclusive.

What's any of that have to do with Sullivan?

Gotcha, I wasn't mentioning Sullivan here. But if somebody is to accept a zodiac connection to the bates case writing and that library, then they would have to look in that library for suspects,and it makes sense to look at suspects that look identical to the zodiac sketch, which Sullivan is one.....in 50 years, I don't know of any others, but if somebody knows of another,I'm all ears.


Anyhow Mitchell, adios & good luck

We don't have to agree. That's fine. The only reason I ever responded to the issue was your claim that anyone who didn't see it your way must have a mental deficit of some kind. Not true.

Also, the Batman keeps attempting to put words in the mouths of others before arguing his point. It is easy to do when one frames the issues to his liking. Not sure if he is intentionally doing this or if he thinks it is a worthwhile method of debate.

I wish you well in your endeavours. Could be you're right about Sullivan. I hope you are. Then the thing can finally be done except we would still have more questions than answers.

I like your site TrueCrimeGuy.com a good read.

[batman]

Apr 29, 2017 9:10:27 GMT Mitchell said:

Apr 29, 2017 7:57:43 GMT batman said:

Apparently to point out that the Riverside suspect has been cleared by DNA but Riverside PD still believe its him, is a straw man and a fallacious argument and irrelevant to the Zodiac case.

That is an inaccurate statement. What you did there would be another straw man.

The main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE said they had their man. Adamant to the point that even after DNA cleared their suspect, they still think its him.

You attempt to know my position and make my argument for me. Who are these people you reference? I have never come across anyone that held the view you propose outside of what has been the reported opinion of the local Riverside investigators.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. I doubt the Riverside connection because there is no proof it exists. The desk-top poem is trivial junk that has nothing to with anything. The handwritten letters are different. Z never typed a letter like The Confession. Regarding the MO, Z never attempted ruse by disabling a car. He always came prepared. He gave himself every advantage. Unsuspecting kids in a car blinded by flashlight in a remote location. Unsuspecting couple in an isolated location held at bay with gun and tied with pre-cut cord prior to being stabbed. Seated behind unsuspecting cab driver armed with gun.

Fighting a woman in a parking lot armed only with a pocket knife is a far cry from the planned attacks orchestrated by Zodiac.

This doesn't mean that Zodiac couldn't be involved in some way. There is simply a lack of conclusive evidence suggesting his involvement. If an investigation into a suspect were to organically lead to Riverside, that's one thing, starting in Riverside with so many question marks regarding the linkage is another thing all together. It erects hurdles where there need be none.

So, in my opinion, including Bates as a victim hurts the case more than it helps. However, if one were to look at Bates murder as a stand alone event and develops a suspect free of any Zodiac related bias, that would be worthwhile and could potentially lead somewhere.

I said the main reason why people reject the Riverside connection is because LE were adamant they had their guy and therefore it wasn't the Zodiac either because this guy couldn't be the Zodiac. I never said it was your reason. It isn't a straw-man. This is a fact of the matter. It was the Riverside position. The official one.

We now know this was complete and utter nonsense because DNA testing has broken their myth. Cherri Jo Bates deserved better than that messed up investigation. To be honest the Bate's family should just walk straight into the Sheriff's office and take their badges. They focused on the wrong person and still today have it wrong, despite science telling them they are wrong. Explain that?

The Zodiac is a textbook example of MO changes and evolution of MO/signature. So trying to corner him into a certain behaviour, especially at the start of his crimes, isn't going to work. In fact your own descriptions demonstrate that as such. Zodiac shot and stabbed. As for never typing, the Bate's family received handwritten notes like - Bates had to die, there will be more. As for not doing anything to people' automobiles - you have Kathleen Johns, who pointed out the man who drove her around was the same as the man in the Stine composite. Her car had been tampered with.

As for rejecting the desk poem... I can understand why you want to do that, because if anyone asks the simple question - 'Okay, who was writing creepy poems in the library at this time?', the answer is ... Ross Sullivan.

Given he was convicted of crimes later in the life, the library staff certainly predicted how dangerous he could be.