Unsolved Lovers Lane Murders

[tosh]

Jun 7, 2021 0:50:17 GMT bltc2001 said:

Apr 7, 2021 19:31:47 GMT njen said:

This Forest Phantom guy has really piqued my interest. He was obviously fairly young at the time based on the sketch. I think it makes a lot of sense that CPK could have started with harassing parkers, then outright killing them and then as he became more comfortable in how people reacted to being approached in those lover's lane situations transitioned to more sadistic behavior.
Weirdly, I grew up in Northern Virginia and recall the news accounts of the CPK. I now live in Maryland near where the FP attacks took place.

I grew up in No. Baltimore County about 15 minutes from Loch Raven - we spent a lot of time there as kids fishing canoeing and picnicking. Later, we frequented those as parkers, be it with our GF's to fool around, or in small groups where we would party.  I graduated HS in June 1980, and even though I went to college out-of-state, I spent my summers back home.  I remember the FP shootings very well - it hit very close to home.  At that time, the girl I was dated refused to go there after dark, and I don't remember frequenting the area after the shootings. While the park itself is pretty dark and quiet, it's not gated really, and it's very accessible by numerous public roads (hence the appeal as a Lovers Lane).  The area where the shootings occurred is not very large, so easily stalked and easy getaway in multiple directions.  The area is mostly upper-middle class, lots of good neighborhoods in very close proximity - it felt like a very safe place at the time.  IIRC, reports were of a young man suspect at the time - there was some speculation (water cooler talk, nothing official) that it could have been a young man whose house abutted the park - the area is surrounded by neighborhoods,

Hi btlc2001, that’s really interesting regarding the speculation. I always think it’s good to hear the local chat at the time - often there is a grain of truth in there somewhere. Was the man young enough that he was still living at home with his parents?

[bltc2001]

Jun 7, 2021 5:23:35 GMT tosh said:

Jun 7, 2021 0:50:17 GMT bltc2001 said:

I grew up in No. Baltimore County about 15 minutes from Loch Raven - we spent a lot of time there as kids fishing canoeing and picnicking. Later, we frequented those as parkers, be it with our GF's to fool around, or in small groups where we would party.  I graduated HS in June 1980, and even though I went to college out-of-state, I spent my summers back home.  I remember the FP shootings very well - it hit very close to home.  At that time, the girl I was dated refused to go there after dark, and I don't remember frequenting the area after the shootings. While the park itself is pretty dark and quiet, it's not gated really, and it's very accessible by numerous public roads (hence the appeal as a Lovers Lane).  The area where the shootings occurred is not very large, so easily stalked and easy getaway in multiple directions.  The area is mostly upper-middle class, lots of good neighborhoods in very close proximity - it felt like a very safe place at the time.  IIRC, reports were of a young man suspect at the time - there was some speculation (water cooler talk, nothing official) that it could have been a young man whose house abutted the park - the area is surrounded by neighborhoods,

Hi btlc2001, that’s really interesting regarding the speculation. I always think it’s good to hear the local chat at the time - often there is a grain of truth in there somewhere. Was the man young enough that he was still living at home with his parents?

Hi tosh, probably in the 1984 - 85 time frame, there was an in-depth article in one of the local papers that discussed possible scenarios.  The one that stuck out the most was a young man living in a nearby home who had mental issues, but despite an investigation, LE could not find anything tying him to the crimes.  As far as I can remember he was never identified as he was never a named suspect, but the gist of the article was he was the one they most suspected.

At the time, there were two newspapers in Baltimore, the Sun and the News-American.  The Sun was the largest and had a very good Sunday issue at the time that included the Sunday Sun Magazine.  For some reason, I think it might had been in there as they published in-depth features at the time on a variety of subjects.  The News-American folded in 1986, so I don't think it was in there - they were bleeding circulation and reporters at the time, so they were losing the local newspaper war.   We moved out in 1997, so I've definitely lost touch with the case.  The only information I can find from the Sun is a YouTube video posted in 2014 that summarizes the case.  Interesting, but very short, and nothing new at all.  I'll keep looking.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6180RQB49w

[tosh]

Lovers' Lane Murders Solved after 65 years.

Thanks to Jay7777 for posting about this elsewhere on the forum otherwise I would not have heard of it. One day the Colonial Parkway Murders will be solved too. The suspect had no known criminal history and was not interviewed during the initial investigation. However, he did ride his horse through the area where one victim was found and lived a mile from the female victim. The crucial piece of evidence that helped to solve this was a sperm cell from a DNA sample that had been preserved for 65 years - you just never know how technology will evolve do you?

Two Montana Sweethearts Were Fatally Shot in 1956. The Case Was Just Solved.

The Cascade County Sheriff’s Office said it appeared to be the oldest homicide case in the United States to be solved with genetic genealogy.
By Michael Levenson

New York Times, June 11, 2021

When Detective Sgt. Jon Kadner of the Cascade County Sheriff’s Office in Montana was told in 2012 that he was being put in charge of the investigation into a long-unsolved double homicide, the case was already more than 50 years old.

It was the first time that Sergeant Kadner, who is 40 and grew up in small-town Iowa, had heard of Duane Bogle and Patricia Kalitzke, teenage sweethearts who had been fatally shot in January 1956, more than two decades before he was born, presumably after they drove to an area in Great Falls, Mont., known as a lovers’ lane.

“There was just years and years of documentation and numerous suspects that had been looked into,” the sergeant said. “But I knew the key was going to be DNA.”

On Tuesday, the Cascade County Sheriff’s Office announced that it had cracked the case. The office identified Kenneth Gould, a horse trainer who died in 2007, as the “likely suspect” who had shot and killed Mr. Bogle, 18, and Ms. Kalitzke, 16, more than 65 years ago.

Sergeant Kadner said he believed it was the oldest homicide case in the United States to be solved with genetic genealogy, which uses DNA from crime scenes to identify the relatives of potential suspects and eventually the suspects themselves.

John M. Butler, an expert on forensic genetics at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, said while he was not aware of any group that officially tracks cold cases, “Certainly, 1956 is the oldest that I have heard about up to this point.”

The investigation involved painstaking research into a long-ago crime that had once generated national media attention.

Ms. Kalitzke was a junior at Great Falls High School. Mr. Bogle was an airman from Waco, Texas, stationed nearby at Malmstrom Air Force Base. They both loved dancing and music, and he was “instantly smitten with Patty” when they met in December 1955, Sergeant Kadner said.

The teenagers were last seen at Pete’s Drive-In restaurant in Great Falls, just after 9 p.m. on Jan. 2, 1956. When they didn’t come home that night, their families assumed they had eloped, Sergeant Kadner said.

The following day, three boys hiking along the Sun River in Great Falls found Mr. Bogle’s body in an area that was known as a rendezvous spot for teenagers.

He was face down, and had been shot in the back of the head. His hands had been tied behind his back with his own belt. The ignition switch, radio and headlights on his car were on, and the car was in gear. His expensive camera had not been taken.

Investigators initially feared that Ms. Kalitzke had been kidnapped.

But the next day, Jan. 4, 1956, a county road worker found her body off a gravel road about five miles north of Great Falls. She had been shot in the head and had injuries that were consistent with a struggle or a sexual assault, Sergeant Kadner said.

Newspaper headlines described the teenagers as “lovers’ lane slaying victims” and recalled a “wide search” for a “brutal killer.”

Over the next half century, detectives investigated about 35 potential suspects, including James (Whitey) Bulger, the notorious South Boston mobster who was convicted in 2013 of participating in 11 murders. Mr. Bulger, who died in 2018, had lived in Great Falls in the 1950s and had been arrested in a rape there in 1951, Sergeant Kadner said.

But no one was ever charged, and the case went cold.

Investigators turned to genetic genealogy in 2018, after the authorities arrested Joseph James DeAngelo, known as the Golden State Killer, and accused him of committing 13 murders and nearly 50 rapes that terrorized California in the 1970s and ’80s. It was the first high-profile case to be cracked with genetic genealogy.

“That’s when we really started looking at what evidence we had, and if we could potentially do the same thing,” Sergeant Kadner said.

Sergeant Kadner said the crucial piece of evidence was a DNA sample from a sperm cell that had been collected from Ms. Kalitzke’s body during her autopsy. That sample had been preserved in an evidence vault for six decades.

In 2001, it had been sent to the state crime lab for analysis, but did not lead to any matches in a national criminal database.

In 2019, with the help of Bode Technology, a Virginia company that specializes in DNA analysis, another DNA profile was extracted from the sample, which enabled investigators to build a family tree that led them to Mr. Gould, Sergeant Kadner said.

Because Mr. Gould had been cremated, investigators collected DNA from his children, which linked Mr. Gould to the sperm cell that had been found on Ms. Kalitzke’s body, Sergeant Kadner said.

Mr. Gould, who was 29 in 1956, lived just over a mile from Ms. Kalitzke’s house and kept horses about 600 yards from the house where she had grown up, Sergeant Kadner said. He had married another 16-year-old girl in 1952 and eventually had five children.

After the killings, he left the area and was seen living in two other Montana towns before moving to Alton, Mo., in 1967.

He never returned to Montana, even to visit his family, Sergeant Kadner said. Mr. Gould had no known criminal history, and detectives do not know if he had any relationship with Ms. Kalitzke or Mr. Bogle. Mr. Gould died in 2007 at age 79 in Oregon County, Mo.

“Obviously, I can’t put the gun in his hand,” Sergeant Kadner said. “But when you put everything together, there’s no doubt in my mind that he’s the suspect.”

Mr. Gould’s children, three of whom submitted DNA samples, were all surprised to be told that their father was being investigated in connection with a double homicide in 1956, Sergeant Kadner said.

“His daughter basically said: ‘You never know. Some people just have secrets that they never told anybody,’” the sergeant recalled.

Ms. Kalitzke’s sister has advanced dementia, Sergeant Kadner said.

Mr. Bogle’s family contended for years with “crazy stories” about what might have happened, including rumors that he might have been mixed up with the mob, said Caryn Bogle McCarthy, 54, whose father, James Bogle, was Duane Bogle’s younger brother.

Now that the authorities have a suspect, “it conclusively allows to us to stop wondering,” she said.

But the resolution, she said, had also reopened pain from that era, particularly for an older generation that knew Mr. Bogle as funny and charming — “the one that everybody in my family loved.” She said her aunt had been in tears all week. Her father, who died in 2013, had “idolized Duane,” as a boy, she said.

“It’s like it just happened yesterday,” Ms. McCarthy said. “So if I was asked is this great modern technology a great thing, I would say, on balance, yes, for my generation, a generation once removed. But it definitely reopens old wounds that have had a chance to crust over.”

[cleopatra]

Jun 15, 2021 11:13:57 GMT tosh said:

Lovers' Lane Murders Solved after 65 years.

Thanks to Jay7777 for posting about this elsewhere on the forum otherwise I would not have heard of it. One day the Colonial Parkway Murders will be solved too. The suspect had no known criminal history and was not interviewed during the initial investigation. However, he did ride his horse through the area where one victim was found and lived a mile from the female victim. The crucial piece of evidence that helped to solve this was a sperm cell from a DNA sample that had been preserved for 65 years - you just never know how technology will evolve do you?

Two Montana Sweethearts Were Fatally Shot in 1956. The Case Was Just Solved.

The Cascade County Sheriff’s Office said it appeared to be the oldest homicide case in the United States to be solved with genetic genealogy.
By Michael Levenson

New York Times, June 11, 2021

When Detective Sgt. Jon Kadner of the Cascade County Sheriff’s Office in Montana was told in 2012 that he was being put in charge of the investigation into a long-unsolved double homicide, the case was already more than 50 years old.

It was the first time that Sergeant Kadner, who is 40 and grew up in small-town Iowa, had heard of Duane Bogle and Patricia Kalitzke, teenage sweethearts who had been fatally shot in January 1956, more than two decades before he was born, presumably after they drove to an area in Great Falls, Mont., known as a lovers’ lane.

“There was just years and years of documentation and numerous suspects that had been looked into,” the sergeant said. “But I knew the key was going to be DNA.”

On Tuesday, the Cascade County Sheriff’s Office announced that it had cracked the case. The office identified Kenneth Gould, a horse trainer who died in 2007, as the “likely suspect” who had shot and killed Mr. Bogle, 18, and Ms. Kalitzke, 16, more than 65 years ago.

Sergeant Kadner said he believed it was the oldest homicide case in the United States to be solved with genetic genealogy, which uses DNA from crime scenes to identify the relatives of potential suspects and eventually the suspects themselves.

John M. Butler, an expert on forensic genetics at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, said while he was not aware of any group that officially tracks cold cases, “Certainly, 1956 is the oldest that I have heard about up to this point.”

The investigation involved painstaking research into a long-ago crime that had once generated national media attention.

Ms. Kalitzke was a junior at Great Falls High School. Mr. Bogle was an airman from Waco, Texas, stationed nearby at Malmstrom Air Force Base. They both loved dancing and music, and he was “instantly smitten with Patty” when they met in December 1955, Sergeant Kadner said.

The teenagers were last seen at Pete’s Drive-In restaurant in Great Falls, just after 9 p.m. on Jan. 2, 1956. When they didn’t come home that night, their families assumed they had eloped, Sergeant Kadner said.

The following day, three boys hiking along the Sun River in Great Falls found Mr. Bogle’s body in an area that was known as a rendezvous spot for teenagers.

He was face down, and had been shot in the back of the head. His hands had been tied behind his back with his own belt. The ignition switch, radio and headlights on his car were on, and the car was in gear. His expensive camera had not been taken.

Investigators initially feared that Ms. Kalitzke had been kidnapped.

But the next day, Jan. 4, 1956, a county road worker found her body off a gravel road about five miles north of Great Falls. She had been shot in the head and had injuries that were consistent with a struggle or a sexual assault, Sergeant Kadner said.

Newspaper headlines described the teenagers as “lovers’ lane slaying victims” and recalled a “wide search” for a “brutal killer.”

Over the next half century, detectives investigated about 35 potential suspects, including James (Whitey) Bulger, the notorious South Boston mobster who was convicted in 2013 of participating in 11 murders. Mr. Bulger, who died in 2018, had lived in Great Falls in the 1950s and had been arrested in a rape there in 1951, Sergeant Kadner said.

But no one was ever charged, and the case went cold.

Investigators turned to genetic genealogy in 2018, after the authorities arrested Joseph James DeAngelo, known as the Golden State Killer, and accused him of committing 13 murders and nearly 50 rapes that terrorized California in the 1970s and ’80s. It was the first high-profile case to be cracked with genetic genealogy.

“That’s when we really started looking at what evidence we had, and if we could potentially do the same thing,” Sergeant Kadner said.

Sergeant Kadner said the crucial piece of evidence was a DNA sample from a sperm cell that had been collected from Ms. Kalitzke’s body during her autopsy. That sample had been preserved in an evidence vault for six decades.

In 2001, it had been sent to the state crime lab for analysis, but did not lead to any matches in a national criminal database.

In 2019, with the help of Bode Technology, a Virginia company that specializes in DNA analysis, another DNA profile was extracted from the sample, which enabled investigators to build a family tree that led them to Mr. Gould, Sergeant Kadner said.

Because Mr. Gould had been cremated, investigators collected DNA from his children, which linked Mr. Gould to the sperm cell that had been found on Ms. Kalitzke’s body, Sergeant Kadner said.

Mr. Gould, who was 29 in 1956, lived just over a mile from Ms. Kalitzke’s house and kept horses about 600 yards from the house where she had grown up, Sergeant Kadner said. He had married another 16-year-old girl in 1952 and eventually had five children.

After the killings, he left the area and was seen living in two other Montana towns before moving to Alton, Mo., in 1967.

He never returned to Montana, even to visit his family, Sergeant Kadner said. Mr. Gould had no known criminal history, and detectives do not know if he had any relationship with Ms. Kalitzke or Mr. Bogle. Mr. Gould died in 2007 at age 79 in Oregon County, Mo.

“Obviously, I can’t put the gun in his hand,” Sergeant Kadner said. “But when you put everything together, there’s no doubt in my mind that he’s the suspect.”

Mr. Gould’s children, three of whom submitted DNA samples, were all surprised to be told that their father was being investigated in connection with a double homicide in 1956, Sergeant Kadner said.

“His daughter basically said: ‘You never know. Some people just have secrets that they never told anybody,’” the sergeant recalled.

Ms. Kalitzke’s sister has advanced dementia, Sergeant Kadner said.

Mr. Bogle’s family contended for years with “crazy stories” about what might have happened, including rumors that he might have been mixed up with the mob, said Caryn Bogle McCarthy, 54, whose father, James Bogle, was Duane Bogle’s younger brother.

Now that the authorities have a suspect, “it conclusively allows to us to stop wondering,” she said.

But the resolution, she said, had also reopened pain from that era, particularly for an older generation that knew Mr. Bogle as funny and charming — “the one that everybody in my family loved.” She said her aunt had been in tears all week. Her father, who died in 2013, had “idolized Duane,” as a boy, she said.

“It’s like it just happened yesterday,” Ms. McCarthy said. “So if I was asked is this great modern technology a great thing, I would say, on balance, yes, for my generation, a generation once removed. But it definitely reopens old wounds that have had a chance to crust over.”

WOW!

[billthom56]

Cleo:

Amazing story! So glad they broke this case after 65 years.

Thank you.


Bill Thomas

[daedra]

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

[cleopatra]

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

Wow - The Pacific Northwest in Washington has 4 unsolved couple homicides that all took place in 1985.  LE is baffled by them, and speculate if it was a serial killer who killed all four couples.

[daedra]

Aug 15, 2021 12:42:21 GMT cleopatra said:

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

Wow - The Pacific Northwest in Washington has 4 unsolved couple homicides that all took place in 1985.  LE is baffled by them, and speculate if it was a serial killer who killed all four couples.

Yeah! Crazy. There might be a third couple too, but they were never officially linked to the others because there was no tube sock present at the crime scene. They're Edward Smith and Kimberly Dianne LaVine from Kent, WA in the summer of 85. truecrimearticles.wordpress.com/2018/01/23/the-unsolved-case-of-the-1985-tube-sock-killings/

[daedra]

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

submitted a foi request for nps employee records from VA and WA from 85-87 but they said they don't keep records earlier than 1996. but they said i could follow up with national archives though  so that's what i'm gonna do! 

[dickere]

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

Hi all

First post from me.

Trying to link the Tube Sock killings to CPK events feels a stretch to far to me.

The non-linked first couple - someone pleaded guilty. No tube sock involved.

The other two couples definitely are connected by the use of the tube sock. CPK didn't use one. Also, the latter pair of Riemer and Robertson is the one where their young daughter turned up alone in a toy store quite a distance away. Presumably the killer dropped her there, whether it was Riemer or someone else. If Riemer, he wasn't CPK for sure. If other, it's hard to see him happily running the girl around if he was CPK. So for me, no connection. Interesting though.

[tosh]

Aug 17, 2021 9:29:01 GMT dickere said:

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

Hi all

First post from me.

Trying to link the Tube Sock killings to CPK events feels a stretch to far to me.

The non-linked first couple - someone pleaded guilty. No tube sock involved.

The other two couples definitely are connected by the use of the tube sock. CPK didn't use one. Also, the latter pair of Riemer and Robertson is the one where their young daughter turned up alone in a toy store quite a distance away. Presumably the killer dropped her there, whether it was Riemer or someone else. If Riemer, he wasn't CPK for sure. If other, it's hard to see him happily running the girl around if he was CPK. So for me, no connection. Interesting though.

Hello and welcome Dickere, thanks for joining - it’s always good to have fresh input. Look forward to hearing more from you, everyone sees things so differently !

[daedra]

Aug 17, 2021 9:29:01 GMT dickere said:

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

Hi all

First post from me.

Trying to link the Tube Sock killings to CPK events feels a stretch to far to me.

The non-linked first couple - someone pleaded guilty. No tube sock involved.

The other two couples definitely are connected by the use of the tube sock. CPK didn't use one. Also, the latter pair of Riemer and Robertson is the one where their young daughter turned up alone in a toy store quite a distance away. Presumably the killer dropped her there, whether it was Riemer or someone else. If Riemer, he wasn't CPK for sure. If other, it's hard to see him happily running the girl around if he was CPK. So for me, no connection. Interesting though.

I agree it's not likely they're connected. Just trying to investigate every angle. It seems like a stretch to me that CPK's first murders were the couples he killed on the parkway. I think he was either experienced and moved from another location to VA, or he was in/around VA all along and escalated from other, less serious crimes to murders. We've explored the possibility that CPK is also responsible for Shenandoah, which is why I'm considering that CPK could have left his mark on other parks around the country. One observation I've made of investigating park rangers associated with Colonial Parkway is that they move around a lot. 

[dickere]

Aug 17, 2021 15:50:08 GMT daedra said:

Aug 17, 2021 9:29:01 GMT dickere said:

Hi all

First post from me.

Trying to link the Tube Sock killings to CPK events feels a stretch to far to me.

The non-linked first couple - someone pleaded guilty. No tube sock involved.

The other two couples definitely are connected by the use of the tube sock. CPK didn't use one. Also, the latter pair of Riemer and Robertson is the one where their young daughter turned up alone in a toy store quite a distance away. Presumably the killer dropped her there, whether it was Riemer or someone else. If Riemer, he wasn't CPK for sure. If other, it's hard to see him happily running the girl around if he was CPK. So for me, no connection. Interesting though.

I agree it's not likely they're connected. Just trying to investigate every angle. It seems like a stretch to me that CPK's first murders were the couples he killed on the parkway. I think he was either experienced and moved from another location to VA, or he was in/around VA all along and escalated from other, less serious crimes to murders. We've explored the possibility that CPK is also responsible for Shenandoah, which is why I'm considering that CPK could have left his mark on other parks around the country. One observation I've made of investigating park rangers associated with Colonial Parkway is that they move around a lot. 

I can see the Scott/Noble killings as being the same as CPK, and Shenandoah looks the same person as the Cathy Thomas CP couple. The connection to water looks strong to me too across most of the cases.

[tosh]

Aug 17, 2021 16:32:01 GMT dickere said:

I can see the Scott/Noble killings as being the same as CPK, and Shenandoah looks the same person as the Cathy Thomas CP couple. The connection to water looks strong to me too across most of the cases.

I think whoever is responsible for the murders of Julie and Lollie in Shenandoah could very well be responsible for the murders of Cathy and Becky too. Although ten years apart both sets of murders are eerily similar. Two female couples, the victims were bound, a knife was used and both sets of murders took place in a national park over a holiday weekend. That seems a lot of coincidences.

[tosh]

Aug 16, 2021 22:34:16 GMT daedra said:

Aug 13, 2021 23:13:14 GMT daedra said:

I don't think the Tube Sock Murders in Washington State have been included here, but I came across them on a list of unsolved homicides of couples. Two couples (male/female) were murdered and dumped at campsites in heavily wooded areas in 1984 and 1985. 

The first couple killed sounds A LOT like Shenandoah: 
- bodies found in remote campsite
- one victim still in sleeping bag 
- dog present at site  

I know Washington State is FAR from Virginia, but if this guy is a NPS ranger, he probably moved around and was stationed at parks throughout the country. The second set of bodies was found near Mount Rainer National Park, and there are many other state parks in the area. So it's possible he could have moved from WA to VA for work. And the timeline fits too (last Tube Sock Murder was in '85). 

A few other similarities I noticed: 
- crime scenes near bodies of water (Tule Lake & Harts Lake; Nisqually River)
- one victim (Diana Robertson) found near logging road 
- 2 victims (Steven Harkins and Ruth Cooper) worked at a school [college connection??]

More info here - 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral,_Washington_murders

submitted a foi request for nps employee records from VA and WA from 85-87 but they said they don't keep records earlier than 1996. but they said i could follow up with national archives though  so that's what i'm gonna do! 

Deadra - do you know if you can obtain the disciplinary records of NPS employees through an FOI request? I realise they don’t go earlier than ‘96 but even those from Shenandoah in 1996 would be interesting to see.