Known Victims: Cathy Thomas & Becky Dowski

[billthom56]

Sept 15, 2022 1:39:27 GMT pod said:

I never really gave the hate crime theory in Cathy and Becky's case much thought tbh, even though I'm gay. (Perhaps because it may suggest the CP killings aren't all connected.)

The fact Cathy and Becky were murdered at an unknown location and transported in their car to the overlook seems significant. Had they been alive and kidnapped, I would simply see the killer looking for an alternative spot to commit the crime. But if Cathy and Becky were already dead, why take them to the overlook at all? And why attempt to make a spectacle of the crime by setting the car alight? It's a risky thing to do after all, making the crime immediately visible.

I can't help thinking the killer/killers wanted and planned to set it alight in order to make a very public statement.

Listening to Morf's podcast on the case, it struck me that he mentioned Becky's ex-boyfriend was muslim and the break-up "enraged him". It also struck me that fire is often used as a weapon by individuals in some cultures, particularly as a form of retaliation for perceived wrongs.

Other thoughts -- the distance between the overlook and gay cruising site is walkable, meaning the killer could have parked his car at the overlook beforehand, and planned on bringing Cathy and Becky back in order to set them and the car alight. Perhaps it was too risky to set them alight at the cruising site.

Beheading is also considered a fitting punishment in some cultures.

Pod:

Great observations!  Cathy and Becky's case could be an "honor killing," which would likely tie back in to Becky's former boyfriend, who was very possessive, a few years older, Muslim, from the United Arab Emirates.  He was rumored to be outraged when he found out that Becky had thrown him over for a woman.  Supposedly he was in Washington DC at the time of the murders, but DC is only 3 hours from Williamsburg, so back-and-forthing would be possible in order to establish an alibi.

Separate issue:  I do think Cathy and Becky's case could be a hate crime and still be related to some of the other murders.  I believe it is quite possible that the offender may have committed some of the other Colonial Parkway Murders in an attempt to cover up the fact that he knew Cathy. I am not thinking of Becky's former boyfriend, but another strong suspect in Cathy and Becky's murder.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas, Brother of Cathy Thomas, Colonial Parkway Murders

[pod]

I think Morf mentioned the ex-boyfriend had an alibi, but I'm sure you know the perpetrators of these so called honour killings often include extended families, siblings, parents, uncles, cousins etc. It seems a legit avenue to consider now we know more about the cultural aspect of these crimes.

[billthom56]

Sept 18, 2022 1:16:53 GMT pod said:

I think Morf mentioned the ex-boyfriend had an alibi, but I'm sure you know the perpetrators of these so called honour killings often include extended families, siblings, parents, uncles, cousins etc. It seems a legit avenue to consider now we know more about the cultural aspect of these crimes.

Pod:

Totally agreed.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

[mustangman]

Sept 17, 2022 18:42:17 GMT billthom56 said:

Sept 15, 2022 1:39:27 GMT pod said:

I never really gave the hate crime theory in Cathy and Becky's case much thought tbh, even though I'm gay. (Perhaps because it may suggest the CP killings aren't all connected.)

The fact Cathy and Becky were murdered at an unknown location and transported in their car to the overlook seems significant. Had they been alive and kidnapped, I would simply see the killer looking for an alternative spot to commit the crime. But if Cathy and Becky were already dead, why take them to the overlook at all? And why attempt to make a spectacle of the crime by setting the car alight? It's a risky thing to do after all, making the crime immediately visible.

I can't help thinking the killer/killers wanted and planned to set it alight in order to make a very public statement.

Listening to Morf's podcast on the case, it struck me that he mentioned Becky's ex-boyfriend was muslim and the break-up "enraged him". It also struck me that fire is often used as a weapon by individuals in some cultures, particularly as a form of retaliation for perceived wrongs.

Other thoughts -- the distance between the overlook and gay cruising site is walkable, meaning the killer could have parked his car at the overlook beforehand, and planned on bringing Cathy and Becky back in order to set them and the car alight. Perhaps it was too risky to set them alight at the cruising site.

Beheading is also considered a fitting punishment in some cultures.

Pod:

Great observations!  Cathy and Becky's case could be an "honor killing," which would likely tie back in to Becky's former boyfriend, who was very possessive, a few years older, Muslim, from the United Arab Emirates.  He was rumored to be outraged when he found out that Becky had thrown him over for a woman.  Supposedly he was in Washington DC at the time of the murders, but DC is only 3 hours from Williamsburg, so back-and-forthing would be possible in order to establish an alibi.

Separate issue:  I do think Cathy and Becky's case could be a hate crime and still be related to some of the other murders.  I believe it is quite possible that the offender may have committed some of the other Colonial Parkway Murders in an attempt to cover up the fact that he knew Cathy. I am not thinking of Becky's former boyfriend, but another strong suspect in Cathy and Becky's murder.

Thanks.


Bill Thomas, Brother of Cathy Thomas, Colonial Parkway Murders

It could also be that the killer simply mistook the two women as a "male/female" couple, since the following CPK murders of couples didn't have any overtly "gay" aspect to them?  It would be very risky that the killer would kill another couple or multiple couples just to cover up a previous double murder?  I've long suspected that Becky's ex-boyfriend was involved in her murder, because of the fact that LE said the knife used was "very sharp straight blade", this is the typical description of a Muslim Knife, which is a very sharp straight edge, not serrated like most military or hunting knives...  although if we speculate that the killer was a Fisherman in a boat, most fishermen would have a Fillet Knife in there tackle box, which is also a very sharp straight bladed knife.

[kemo]

A Muslim Knife?

It is very unlikely that the women were killed by someone either of them knew for some personal motive. They were out together in Cathy’s car. Who would have known where they would be that night?

Nobody is certain where they went that night or where they encountered the person who killed them, but it is very likely they were parked on the Parkway. I’m not sure if they were known to frequent the parkway but it was a popular place for couples to go when they wanted a little privacy. It would also be a good place for a predator to find a couple to victimize. A parked vehicle would generally have all interior lights off so that anyone who passing by would be unable to see inside or know who was there or what sex they were. It would be highly likely that a car, parked along the Parkway would have one male and one female inside. A sexual predator seeking a male-female couple would probably find a female-female couple suitable for his needs. (I am assuming the predator would be male).

There is indication that Cathy’s vehicle was moved by the predator. We don’t know how far it was moved but I suspect it was a short distance. He must have had a vehicle since he had a container of diesel fuel. Presumably the perpetrator left his car at the site of the initial encounter so it would probably be within reasonable walking distance. The only way it could have been further is if there were two perpetrators so that one could drive their car. Two perpetrators, in this kind of crime is highly unusual (although not impossible). I think there is a very high probability that this was one perpetrator seeking a male-female couple at a spot where he would be unlikely to encounter anyone else. The second and third attack follow this same pattern. The fourth, not so much.

[kjfit]

Sept 23, 2022 17:01:48 GMT kemo said:

A Muslim Knife?

It is very unlikely that the women were killed by someone either of them knew for some personal motive. They were out together in Cathy’s car. Who would have known where they would be that night?

Nobody is certain where they went that night or where they encountered the person who killed them, but it is very likely they were parked on the Parkway. I’m not sure if they were known to frequent the parkway but it was a popular place for couples to go when they wanted a little privacy. It would also be a good place for a predator to find a couple to victimize. A parked vehicle would generally have all interior lights off so that anyone who passing by would be unable to see inside or know who was there or what sex they were. It would be highly likely that a car, parked along the Parkway would have one male and one female inside. A sexual predator seeking a male-female couple would probably find a female-female couple suitable for his needs. (I am assuming the predator would be male).

There is indication that Cathy’s vehicle was moved by the predator. We don’t know how far it was moved but I suspect it was a short distance. He must have had a vehicle since he had a container of diesel fuel. Presumably the perpetrator left his car at the site of the initial encounter so it would probably be within reasonable walking distance. The only way it could have been further is if there were two perpetrators so that one could drive their car. Two perpetrators, in this kind of crime is highly unusual (although not impossible). I think there is a very high probability that this was one perpetrator seeking a male-female couple at a spot where he would be unlikely to encounter anyone else. The second and third attack follow this same pattern. The fourth, not so much.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking as well. I think the predator was lying in the wait and had a vehicle parked nearby. It's also possible he had a boat which would make it easier to get out of the area without being spotted, especially had he succeeded in setting the car on fire.

[tosh]

Sept 23, 2022 17:01:48 GMT kemo said:

A Muslim Knife?

It is very unlikely that the women were killed by someone either of them knew for some personal motive. They were out together in Cathy’s car. Who would have known where they would be that night?

Nobody is certain where they went that night or where they encountered the person who killed them, but it is very likely they were parked on the Parkway. I’m not sure if they were known to frequent the parkway but it was a popular place for couples to go when they wanted a little privacy. It would also be a good place for a predator to find a couple to victimize. A parked vehicle would generally have all interior lights off so that anyone who passing by would be unable to see inside or know who was there or what sex they were. It would be highly likely that a car, parked along the Parkway would have one male and one female inside. A sexual predator seeking a male-female couple would probably find a female-female couple suitable for his needs. (I am assuming the predator would be male).

There is indication that Cathy’s vehicle was moved by the predator. We don’t know how far it was moved but I suspect it was a short distance. He must have had a vehicle since he had a container of diesel fuel. Presumably the perpetrator left his car at the site of the initial encounter so it would probably be within reasonable walking distance. The only way it could have been further is if there were two perpetrators so that one could drive their car. Two perpetrators, in this kind of crime is highly unusual (although not impossible). I think there is a very high probability that this was one perpetrator seeking a male-female couple at a spot where he would be unlikely to encounter anyone else. The second and third attack follow this same pattern. The fourth, not so much.

I think some people they knew were aware that they went to a spot on the parkway to be alone.

If it was a random attack and they weren’t approached at their normal parking spot I think they may have been stalked/followed from the college car park to a McDonalds and then Ringfield.

[mustangman]

Sept 23, 2022 17:01:48 GMT kemo said:

A Muslim Knife?

It is very unlikely that the women were killed by someone either of them knew for some personal motive. They were out together in Cathy’s car. Who would have known where they would be that night?

Nobody is certain where they went that night or where they encountered the person who killed them, but it is very likely they were parked on the Parkway. I’m not sure if they were known to frequent the parkway but it was a popular place for couples to go when they wanted a little privacy. It would also be a good place for a predator to find a couple to victimize. A parked vehicle would generally have all interior lights off so that anyone who passing by would be unable to see inside or know who was there or what sex they were. It would be highly likely that a car, parked along the Parkway would have one male and one female inside. A sexual predator seeking a male-female couple would probably find a female-female couple suitable for his needs. (I am assuming the predator would be male).

There is indication that Cathy’s vehicle was moved by the predator. We don’t know how far it was moved but I suspect it was a short distance. He must have had a vehicle since he had a container of diesel fuel. Presumably the perpetrator left his car at the site of the initial encounter so it would probably be within reasonable walking distance. The only way it could have been further is if there were two perpetrators so that one could drive their car. Two perpetrators, in this kind of crime is highly unusual (although not impossible). I think there is a very high probability that this was one perpetrator seeking a male-female couple at a spot where he would be unlikely to encounter anyone else. The second and third attack follow this same pattern. The fourth, not so much.

ok, the "Muslim Knife" that I mention is called a "Jambiya", it is very sharp and strong enough to have been the knife used against Cathy/Becky, also we dont have LE reporting that the 2 women were stabbed, just that their throats were cut very deep, but no "stabbing".  I mention no stabbing because the "Jambiya" isnt meant for stabbing, just slashing of the throats.   

Your next statement about it being ""unlikely that the killer knew the 2 women or had a personal motive and how would someone have known where they might be that night""...   well to answer this you'd need to know that Becky's recent Ex-boyfriend knew her and probably also had met Cathy thru Becky and was very upset that he got dumped for a women (Cathy), (something Muslim's consider a sin against God worth killing for) and this gives him motive.  The Ex-boyfriend knew what Becky's car looked like and where to find it on the college campus, all he had to do was stalk her car once he found it, he probably witnessed Becky getting into Cathys car and followed them out to the turnout on the Parkway, or ,possibly during his time dating Becky they both had frequented the Picnic area on the Parkway and he knew where to likely find Becky (this means he knew a few places to look to find Becky). 

There isnt any evidence that these crimes were committed by a sexual predator, no sexual molestation of the victims has been reported by LE.  IMHO Cathy/Becky were murdered in a outburst of rage driven by hate, thus the evidence of torture by the killer tying up his victims, putting rope around there necks and strangling them, which wouldve been good enough to kill them, but he goes further and then cuts their throats and finally attempts to burn their bodies in the car.  Since Cathy's Ex was of muslim decent the use of fire to burn bodies is one way to punish them for their sin of being a lesbian couple, he just didnt know that the properties of diesel fuel meant it has harder to light on fire.

[mustangman]

Sept 23, 2022 22:07:57 GMT tosh said:

Sept 23, 2022 17:01:48 GMT kemo said:

A Muslim Knife?

It is very unlikely that the women were killed by someone either of them knew for some personal motive. They were out together in Cathy’s car. Who would have known where they would be that night?

Nobody is certain where they went that night or where they encountered the person who killed them, but it is very likely they were parked on the Parkway. I’m not sure if they were known to frequent the parkway but it was a popular place for couples to go when they wanted a little privacy. It would also be a good place for a predator to find a couple to victimize. A parked vehicle would generally have all interior lights off so that anyone who passing by would be unable to see inside or know who was there or what sex they were. It would be highly likely that a car, parked along the Parkway would have one male and one female inside. A sexual predator seeking a male-female couple would probably find a female-female couple suitable for his needs. (I am assuming the predator would be male).

There is indication that Cathy’s vehicle was moved by the predator. We don’t know how far it was moved but I suspect it was a short distance. He must have had a vehicle since he had a container of diesel fuel. Presumably the perpetrator left his car at the site of the initial encounter so it would probably be within reasonable walking distance. The only way it could have been further is if there were two perpetrators so that one could drive their car. Two perpetrators, in this kind of crime is highly unusual (although not impossible). I think there is a very high probability that this was one perpetrator seeking a male-female couple at a spot where he would be unlikely to encounter anyone else. The second and third attack follow this same pattern. The fourth, not so much.

I think some people they knew were aware that they went to a spot on the parkway to be alone.

If it was a random attack and they weren’t approached at their normal parking spot I think they may have been stalked/followed from the college car park to a McDonalds and then Ringfield.

Cathy/Becky being stalked from the college campus out to the Ringfield picnic area is very plausible theory instead of lying in wait for the perfect couple to show up at the park, which would be risky for the killer, someone could've witnessed him or his car and given LE a description.    Becky's Ex-boyfriend most likely wouldve known about the picnic area on the Parkway.   

[mustangman]

Sept 23, 2022 23:02:30 GMT mustangman said:

Sept 23, 2022 17:01:48 GMT kemo said:

A Muslim Knife?

It is very unlikely that the women were killed by someone either of them knew for some personal motive. They were out together in Cathy’s car. Who would have known where they would be that night?

Nobody is certain where they went that night or where they encountered the person who killed them, but it is very likely they were parked on the Parkway. I’m not sure if they were known to frequent the parkway but it was a popular place for couples to go when they wanted a little privacy. It would also be a good place for a predator to find a couple to victimize. A parked vehicle would generally have all interior lights off so that anyone who passing by would be unable to see inside or know who was there or what sex they were. It would be highly likely that a car, parked along the Parkway would have one male and one female inside. A sexual predator seeking a male-female couple would probably find a female-female couple suitable for his needs. (I am assuming the predator would be male).

There is indication that Cathy’s vehicle was moved by the predator. We don’t know how far it was moved but I suspect it was a short distance. He must have had a vehicle since he had a container of diesel fuel. Presumably the perpetrator left his car at the site of the initial encounter so it would probably be within reasonable walking distance. The only way it could have been further is if there were two perpetrators so that one could drive their car. Two perpetrators, in this kind of crime is highly unusual (although not impossible). I think there is a very high probability that this was one perpetrator seeking a male-female couple at a spot where he would be unlikely to encounter anyone else. The second and third attack follow this same pattern. The fourth, not so much.

ok, the "Muslim Knife" that I mention is called a "Jambiya", it is very sharp and strong enough to have been the knife used against Cathy/Becky, also we dont have LE reporting that the 2 women were stabbed, just that their throats were cut very deep, but no "stabbing".  I mention no stabbing because the "Jambiya" isnt meant for stabbing, just slashing of the throats.   

Your next statement about it being ""unlikely that the killer knew the 2 women or had a personal motive and how would someone have known where they might be that night""...   well to answer this you'd need to know that Becky's recent Ex-boyfriend knew her and probably also had met Cathy thru Becky and was very upset that he got dumped for a women (Cathy), (something Muslim's consider a sin against God worth killing for) and this gives him motive.  The Ex-boyfriend knew what Becky's car looked like and where to find it on the college campus, all he had to do was stalk her car once he found it, he probably witnessed Becky getting into Cathys car and followed them out to the picnic area on the Parkway, or possibly during his time dating Becky they both had frequented the Picnic area on the Parkway and he knew where to likely find Becky (this means he knew a few places to look to find Becky). 

There isnt any evidence that these crimes were committed by a sexual predator, no sexual molestation of the victims has been reported by LE.  IMHO Cathy/Becky were murdered in a outburst of rage driven by hate, thus the evidence of torture by the killer tying up his victims, putting rope around there necks and strangling them, which wouldve been good enough to kill them, but he goes further and then cuts their throats and finally attempts to burn their bodies in the car.  Since Cathy's Ex was of muslim decent the use of fire to burn bodies is one way to punish them for their sin of being a lesbian couple, he just didnt know that the properties of diesel fuel meant it was harder to light on fire.

The fact that the killer went to all the trouble to have diesel fuel, matches, rope, knife moving the car & bodies etc...  points to this being a premeditated murder, not spur of the moment.  So the killer very likely knew his victims due to the overkill of the manner of deaths also points to the killer having to kill them both, not just Becky if the killer was her Ex-boyfriend.  IMHO this murder was planned in advance.  

[billthom56]

Several of the FBI, VSP and other investigators who have worked Cathy and Becky's case have talked to me about the use of a "murder kit" that the offender brought with him. The kit contained rope, handcuffs or other restraints, a sharp knife or knives, diesel fuel or kerosene, and matches at a minimum. He may have also carried a gun in order to establish control, and likely a flashlight. That sounds pretty planned out to me.

Based on what I know about this case, I strongly disagree that the offender had no personal motive.  It is possible that this is a random killing, but I think the odds of a random killing are in long-shot territory.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

[kjfit]

Sept 25, 2022 19:48:01 GMT billthom56 said:

Several of the FBI, VSP and other investigators who have worked Cathy and Becky's case have talked to me about the use of a "murder kit" that the offender brought with him. The kit contained rope, handcuffs or other restraints, a sharp knife or knives, diesel fuel or kerosene, and matches at a minimum. He may have also carried a gun in order to establish control, and likely a flashlight. That sounds pretty planned out to me.

Based on what I know about this case, I strongly disagree that the offender had no personal motive.  It is possible that this is a random killing, but I think the odds of a random killing are in long-shot territory.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

I agree. Whoever did it had it planned out and was prepared to carry out his attack. What was the motive?

[kemo]

Sept 25, 2022 19:48:01 GMT billthom56 said:

Several of the FBI, VSP and other investigators who have worked Cathy and Becky's case have talked to me about the use of a "murder kit" that the offender brought with him. The kit contained rope, handcuffs or other restraints, a sharp knife or knives, diesel fuel or kerosene, and matches at a minimum. He may have also carried a gun in order to establish control, and likely a flashlight. That sounds pretty planned out to me.

Based on what I know about this case, I strongly disagree that the offender had no personal motive.  It is possible that this is a random killing, but I think the odds of a random killing are in long-shot territory.

Thanks.



Bill Thomas

Bill,
Are you saying that, from what you know, Cathy and Becky were specifically targeted? They were not just victims of someone targeting couples at a remote lover’s lane? This would would mean that the other cases are unrelated and someone probably followed them to the parkway. Could you explain?

[cleopatra]

I tend to suspect the killer had a beef with one or both of the girls and wanted to force them to listen to whatever it is he  wanted to tell them.

If he just wanted to kill them, he could have done it swiftly and quickly in a parking lot or near one of their apartments.  There would have been no need to  kidnap them, bind their hands and  gag their mouths.  He created a high risk to being seen.  A risk he felt he had to take, in order to have the interaction he planned on having with them.. 

[mustangman]

Oct 2, 2022 15:40:29 GMT cleopatra said:

I tend to suspect the killer had a beef with one or both of the girls and wanted to force them to listen to whatever it is he  wanted to tell them.

If he just wanted to kill them, he could have done it swiftly and quickly in a parking lot or near one of their apartments.  There would have been no need to  kidnap them, bind their hands and  gag their mouths.  He created a high risk to being seen.  A risk he felt he had to take, in order to have the interaction he planned on having with them.. 

I've always found that the lack of any evidence at one of the other picnic areas or turnouts on the Parkway, where LE strongly suspect that Cathy/Becky were killed at one location then taken to the turnout where they were found, to be telling.  In fact we only have the car, matches, diesel fuel and the bodies found at just the one turnout, nowhere else.  Cathy/Becky might have also left campus in Cathy's car and went to someone's home off campus and this is where they were killed.  The amount of time it would take for one person to subdue two young strong women then bind, gag, strangle, cut their throats, remove the bindings then place the bodies into the car without being seen or heard, this would could take up a half hour for 1 person to do, not to mention the driving the car out to the turnout and dumping it off. 

IMO the killer didn't spend 1 half hour on the parkway doing all this, he would've taken a great risk of someone seeing him.  IMO the most time he spent on the Parkway was only driving the car to the turnout, trying to light the car on fire and when that failed he pushed the car over the embankment, and only been at the scene for as little as 5 minutes.  This seems most likely.