Could the CPK be using a BOAT?

[mustangman]

Sept 30, 2019 4:36:00 GMT formerlurker said:

Sept 29, 2019 14:23:15 GMT griswold said:

Formerlurker said: "The logistics of putting a bike in the rear of a car while trying to control the passengers seems unlikely to me."

To throw a bike in a vehicle
would take a grand total of 2 seconds,
and after tying Kathy to the headrest by her neck, and threatening Becky with hot lead passing through her body if she doesn't sit still would be logistically easy and is very plausable.

If Cathy was tied by the neck, the killer would still have to get out of the car, open the hatchback and take the front wheel off the bike to fit it in the hatchback, otherwise (with the front wheel still on) the hatchback would need to be tied down or be left to flop open. During this time Cathy or Becky could easily lock the doors and Cathy, tied or not, could drive away.  It would be much easier to leave the bike somewhere in town than to attempt taking it.

If you absolutely need a scenario where the killer takes the bike, he could force one of the women at gunpoint to put the bike in the car.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around how the killer would get in the back of ANY of the victims’ cars: they all drove 2 door cars which don’t exactly make it easy to hop in the back seat.  In all cases the driver or front passenger would need to slide a front seat forward or even get the out of the car to let the CPK into the rear.  

You are correct to say that the front tire of the bike would've had to been removed in order to fit in that small car, but this would leave no room for the CPK to fit in the back.

The front seat in Keith's car was reported to have been moved up as was the front seat in David's truck, the truck had no back seat, so it has been suspected that the CPK drove both of these vehicles to the locations where they were found.  I don't think the CPK had to move Cathy's car seat forward due to it was a very small car.  

Do we know if Daniel's front car seat had been moved forward?

 

[cleopatra]

Mustangman previously concluded that the CPK'S signature was the staging of the vehicles.

I think part of his signature was also concealing the bodies. There was no motive, no robbery, no sexual assaults. The killer could have just killed his victims anywhere by gunshot, stabbing, strangulation, then left. He had some fantasy to play out. He needed a pair/couple, their vehicle, then to end his crime parking by a bridge over water.

Since I first came on this case, that is what has always boggled my mind. The strange and mysterious senario. It was so risky to be moving around at night with his victims. He hit on 3 day legal holiday weekends, so there would always be people driving around late. Just as Chris Call had been.

The EAR/Deangelo was trying to recapture his last night with his ex-fiance, Bonnie, who dumped him. That night, JJD snuck into her bedroom through the window, holding a gun, then graabbed Bonnie and tryied to convonce her to elope with him to Reno. Bonnie's father heard the comotion and kicked Deangelo out. The EAR would sneak in through windows, stay all night long as he ate the victims food and looked through their photo albums and drawers.

[griswold]

Jul 7, 2019 22:40:54 GMT griswold said:

A bike will fit in all cars, you don't have to close the hatch or trunk to travel down the road with one.

Yeah, I've seen a 1980 Civic before. It was not daytime during the attacks, so having an open hatch wasn't a big concern in the short window of time. Bikes are easy to put in a boat. Please consider all possibilities.

[cleopatra]

Sept 30, 2019 4:36:00 GMT formerlurker said:

Sept 29, 2019 14:23:15 GMT griswold said:

Formerlurker said: "The logistics of putting a bike in the rear of a car while trying to control the passengers seems unlikely to me."

To throw a bike in a vehicle
would take a grand total of 2 seconds,
and after tying Kathy to the headrest by her neck, and threatening Becky with hot lead passing through her body if she doesn't sit still would be logistically easy and is very plausable.

If Cathy was tied by the neck, the killer would still have to get out of the car, open the hatchback and take the front wheel off the bike to fit it in the hatchback, otherwise (with the front wheel still on) the hatchback would need to be tied down or be left to flop open. During this time Cathy or Becky could easily lock the doors and Cathy, tied or not, could drive away.  It would be much easier to leave the bike somewhere in town than to attempt taking it.

If you absolutely need a scenario where the killer takes the bike, he could force one of the women at gunpoint to put the bike in the car.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around how the killer would get in the back of ANY of the victims’ cars: they all drove 2 door cars which don’t exactly make it easy to hop in the back seat.  In all cases the driver or front passenger would need to slide a front seat forward or even get the out of the car to let the CPK into the rear.  

gris,

That's a very good point. 

Who was it that mentioned noticing the vehicles were all 2 doors?  That's also a very interesting detail.

These speculations about the CPK and the cars are also interesting.  I have always wondered about Jeff Scott's and David Knobling's trucks and whether the killer rode in the trucks or drove them with the victims inside.  Same with Daniel Lauer's car, as the back seat was jam-packed with his and Annamaria's belongings.

Could the CPK have deliberately chosen 2-doors?  If so, why? Maybe by forcing the victims to sit in the back seats he knew they couldn't open a door and jump out. But what about the trucks?  

Cleo

[formerlurker]

I mentioned the 2 door vehicle detail in the Keith Call thread...

[Cretaceous Dune]

Oct 1, 2019 15:10:56 GMT cleopatra said:

Sept 30, 2019 4:36:00 GMT formerlurker said:

If Cathy was tied by the neck, the killer would still have to get out of the car, open the hatchback and take the front wheel off the bike to fit it in the hatchback, otherwise (with the front wheel still on) the hatchback would need to be tied down or be left to flop open. During this time Cathy or Becky could easily lock the doors and Cathy, tied or not, could drive away.  It would be much easier to leave the bike somewhere in town than to attempt taking it.

If you absolutely need a scenario where the killer takes the bike, he could force one of the women at gunpoint to put the bike in the car.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around how the killer would get in the back of ANY of the victims’ cars: they all drove 2 door cars which don’t exactly make it easy to hop in the back seat.  In all cases the driver or front passenger would need to slide a front seat forward or even get the out of the car to let the CPK into the rear.  

gris,

That's a very good point. 

Who was it that mentioned noticing the vehicles were all 2 doors?  That's also a very interesting detail.

These speculations about the CPK and the cars are also interesting.  I have always wondered about Jeff Scott's and David Knobling's trucks and whether the killer rode in the trucks or drove them with the victims inside.  Same with Daniel Lauer's car, as the back seat was jam-packed with his and Annamaria's belongings.

Could the CPK have deliberately chosen 2-doors?  If so, why? Maybe by forcing the victims to sit in the back seats he knew they couldn't open a door and jump out. But what about the trucks?  

Cleo

Maybe the 2-door thing is a thing, or maybe it's just coincidental. This is why: truck manufacturers weren't making as many double/extended cabs then, and in those days, kids were not into driving cars with 4 doors. Unless it was a super-nice, expensive car. Four-door cars were good for old folks. If the killer chose his victims intentionally (choosing only young ones) then it would have been more likely that all of the vehicles would have had two doors.

That leads me to my next thought, which is that the killer chose young victims, and that's probably why he chose to either surprise them with a blitz attack while they were parked, or attempted to gain their trust, etc.

[cleopatra]

Oct 5, 2019 10:12:07 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Oct 1, 2019 15:10:56 GMT cleopatra said:

gris,

That's a very good point. 

Who was it that mentioned noticing the vehicles were all 2 doors?  That's also a very interesting detail.

These speculations about the CPK and the cars are also interesting.  I have always wondered about Jeff Scott's and David Knobling's trucks and whether the killer rode in the trucks or drove them with the victims inside.  Same with Daniel Lauer's car, as the back seat was jam-packed with his and Annamaria's belongings.

Could the CPK have deliberately chosen 2-doors?  If so, why? Maybe by forcing the victims to sit in the back seats he knew they couldn't open a door and jump out. But what about the trucks?  

Cleo

Maybe the 2-door thing is a thing, or maybe it's just coincidental. This is why: truck manufacturers weren't making as many double/extended cabs then, and in those days, kids were not into driving cars with 4 doors. Unless it was a super-nice, expensive car. Four-door cars were good for old folks. If the killer chose his victims intentionally (choosing only young ones) then it would have been more likely that all of the vehicles would have had two doors.

That leads me to my next thought, which is that the killer chose young victims, and that's probably why he chose to either surprise them with a blitz attack while they were parked, or attempted to gain their trust, etc.

If the killer was pulling over the victims and was targeting young people, how would have known their ages?  Unless he requested their info over the radio, using the plates.

[formerlurker]

Oct 5, 2019 10:12:07 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Oct 1, 2019 15:10:56 GMT cleopatra said:

gris,

That's a very good point. 

Who was it that mentioned noticing the vehicles were all 2 doors?  That's also a very interesting detail.

These speculations about the CPK and the cars are also interesting.  I have always wondered about Jeff Scott's and David Knobling's trucks and whether the killer rode in the trucks or drove them with the victims inside.  Same with Daniel Lauer's car, as the back seat was jam-packed with his and Annamaria's belongings.

Could the CPK have deliberately chosen 2-doors?  If so, why? Maybe by forcing the victims to sit in the back seats he knew they couldn't open a door and jump out. But what about the trucks?  

Cleo

Maybe the 2-door thing is a thing, or maybe it's just coincidental. This is why: truck manufacturers weren't making as many double/extended cabs then, and in those days, kids were not into driving cars with 4 doors. Unless it was a super-nice, expensive car. Four-door cars were good for old folks. If the killer chose his victims intentionally (choosing only young ones) then it would have been more likely that all of the vehicles would have had two doors.

That leads me to my next thought, which is that the killer chose young victims, and that's probably why he chose to either surprise them with a blitz attack while they were parked, or attempted to gain their trust, etc.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? (i.e. the young victims or the cars?)

I’ve always wondered how many people came across the CPK and were not selected for murder because they did not fit the criteria...

[cleopatra]

Oct 7, 2019 3:56:02 GMT formerlurker said:

Oct 5, 2019 10:12:07 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Maybe the 2-door thing is a thing, or maybe it's just coincidental. This is why: truck manufacturers weren't making as many double/extended cabs then, and in those days, kids were not into driving cars with 4 doors. Unless it was a super-nice, expensive car. Four-door cars were good for old folks. If the killer chose his victims intentionally (choosing only young ones) then it would have been more likely that all of the vehicles would have had two doors.

That leads me to my next thought, which is that the killer chose young victims, and that's probably why he chose to either surprise them with a blitz attack while they were parked, or attempted to gain their trust, etc.

Which came first? The chicken or the egg? (i.e. the young victims or the cars?)

I’ve always wondered how many people came across the CPK and were not selected for murder because they did not fit the criteria...

I've wondered the same.  Previously, I speculated that the CPK pre-selected his victims and stalked them days or weeks prior to attacking them. 

All the males were Caucasian, aged 20 or just about 20, owned the vehicles they were driving, came from tight-knit families and still lived at home. All their parents immediately knew they were missing first thing in the morning, which indicate they had parents who were overly-protective.  Two of the male victims were adopted. One worked at a boat dock and had recently received a citation on a boat for not having enough lifesaver jackets on board.  All of the male victims were handsome, athletic, exceptionally fit, 6 feet tall, on sports teams in high school, were outdoors men who went fishing, hunting and camping. All were very close to their fathers (one's father gave him a car for a high school graduation gift, one's father recently helped him wire his car's radio system, and one's father set him up with a painting job then paid him for the work).  Two of them recently broke up with their long-term girlfriends. All were in the company of a beautiful, intelligent, outgoing, popular female. None of the male victims were introverted, obese, short in height, a bookworm who preferred staying indoors, non-athletic, nerdy-looking, an only child, had dismissive or abusive parents, had alcoholic parents, absent fathers, driving a borrowed vehicle, of African-American, Latino, Asian or other-nonwhite descent, in the presence of an unattractive female.  The male victims had only one passenger in their vehicles, a pretty female, and no other friends.  The Bluefield male victim and three other males victims lived alongside a body of water that led to the James River or York River.

The killer may have stalked many potentials in the months prior to attacking.  Some of the male victims may have known their killer, even if only in passing or as an acquaintance.  It could explain how the killer got close to them.

The EAR stalked his victims in advance, and as we now know he was a cop.  The BTK, Ted Bundy, Kenneth Bianchi and other serial killer pre-selected then stalked their victims in advance.

[cleopatra]

I just found out the NPS at Colonial had did boat patrol on the James River in the 1980s.  It was was kept  secret.  Not even other NPS employees knew about it.  The boat patrol was done by park rangers.   

This is an extremely interesting discovery. ..

Especially since the name of one particular ranger who was part of the James River Boat patrol unit has come up already.

[Cretaceous Dune]

Jan 17, 2020 8:43:07 GMT cleopatra said:

I just found out the NPS at Colonial had did boat patrol on the James River in the 1980s.  It was was kept  secret.  Not even other NPS employees knew about it.  The boat patrol was done by park rangers.   

This is an extremely interesting discovery. ..

Especially since the name of one particular ranger who was part of the James River Boat patrol unit has come up already.

Where did you find that?
The parkway borders both the James and York Rivers, at different ends of the road.

[cleopatra]

Jan 28, 2020 22:37:08 GMT Cretaceous Dune said:

Jan 17, 2020 8:43:07 GMT cleopatra said:

I just found out the NPS at Colonial had did boat patrol on the James River in the 1980s.  It was was kept  secret.  Not even other NPS employees knew about it.  The boat patrol was done by park rangers.   

This is an extremely interesting discovery. ..

Especially since the name of one particular ranger who was part of the James River Boat patrol unit has come up already.

Where did you find that?
The parkway borders both the James and York Rivers, at different ends of the road.

Within a social blob.  Due to names mentioned, I cannot post it on the public board.  

[vrextar]

Hello all, been a while since I've been here. I was recently driving around Williamsburg and got to thinking about the case after seeing a pickup with a canoe or kayak attached. Apologies if this has already been theorized/mentioned, but could the boat have been something unpowered like that? That would eliminate a source of noise, which could (in theory) be more easily detectable (i.e. boats with motors). Though this doesn't necessarily account for the fuel.

[tosh]

I think it might have been discussed before about fire/ rescue squads. So apologies if I am going over old ground but just wanted to add that The Abingdon Volunteer Fire and Rescue Squad used boats from The Virginia Institute of Marine Science at Gloucester Point for rescues and emergencies. “The 29 boat armada is berthed in the institute’s marina, tucked away under the shadow of the George P. Coleman Memorial Bridge, around the point from the county beach.” Daily Press, August 23rd, 1987.

[lukesmom]

I grew up in the area and went to MS and HS with one of the victims (Hailey). I've thought the CPK probably owned a boat, but not confident that they used it in the crimes. 

One reason I think they didn't use a boat was the logistics of getting a boat in the water, cleaning it, and where they would store a boat. If they owned a boat, it's pretty likely they used it between crimes. They would have had to clean it, and that could attract attention. The crimes would have created a lot of blood which would need to be cleaned up. It would be easier to use a truck with either an open or enclosed flatbed, IMO.

The main ways people stored boats are at a slip/marina (usually for large boats and fishing boats), a private house dock on your property (small boats), and on your yard or towed by a truck. The first one would have attracted too much attention, IMO, although using a slip at night would have been possible. Most houses in the area with private docks are nicer homes with higher incomes. Using your private dock at night would be similar to mowing your lawn - it would attract attention from the neighbors. Using a fishing boat would be cumbersome and slow - from the pictures I've seen of them they're likely to be harder to dock/anchor on the parkway. 

I do think the CPK owned a boat. The use of diesel fuel, plus I think a cord used on one of the victims was commonly used on boats, supports that theory.