Was there or was there not an accomplice?

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

First, there was only one set of shoe prints found ever.
Children in the homes never reported seeing more than one person.
Most people don't believe there was someone else present when he talked to "someone".  Almost always they heard no reply, no footsteps.

However, there were times a few people did think there was somebody else present. 

#17 4/15/77 Cherrelyn Way, Carmichael HuntingAPsychopath page 208 Detective Shelby, retired at the time met a former sister-in-law of the victim.  The victim gave a different account of what happened to her family than she did to the police.  (Embarrassment?) "She told them she was certain there were two rapists.  During the first sexual assault the suspect, as in all the other assaults, did not allow his full weight to come to rest on her.  This was the guy with the small penis.  After he was finished assaulting her, he stepped out of the house and into the backyard.  Then he came back in and climbed onto the bed to assault her again.  This time the bed sank down much further than the first time, and he allowed his full weight to bear down on her.  Not only that, but he had a normal sized penis.  There was more than one trip out that back door, and more than one sexual assault that night."

So the above account does not come from the victim herself and Detective Shelby continues:  "My only issue with what the victim allegedly told her family is that none of the victims I spoke with, nor with whom Carol spoke, ever told us they thought there was more than one suspect."

#14 3/8/77 Thornwood, Sacramento.   many hang up calls, no talking, just listening. The last one a WOMAN asked for the girl’s parent, when parent came to answer nobody there!

Goleta 12/30/79 On the night of the Offerman/Manning murders there were GSK burglaries.  One was on Queen Ann.  At 6:10 p.m. the teenage next door neighbor of the burglary victim reported a female on the front porch of the burglary victim.  7:00 p.m. the neighbor sees a man appearing to ring the doorbell of the burglary victim.  At 7:30 the neighbor exits her home and sees the same man appearing to ring the doorbell of the same neighbor.  

Goleta 12/30/79 Dr. Offerman's neighbor heard his Porche return and 3 voices in the parking lot.  One she recognized as Dr. Offerman, a female voice and a male voice.  She did not recognize the female voice or the second male voice.  However, personally, I'm thinking the female voice was probably Debra Manning.

A horn beeped, a knock on a window while the EAR was inside.   I know that the Tuolumne victim #24 clears up that it was his friends knocking and ringing his doorbell but I'm trying to find where I read that in different attack the woman said he heard a horn beeping and someone knocking at the door and window.  In my memory it was a Concord victim but rereading those chapters, it apparently was not.  Beeping was heard because the key was left in the ignition and it beeps when the door is opened.  I might be thinking of that, but I believe there was another instance.  (If anyone recalls can you post that information?)

HERE ARE A FEW MORE THINGS THAT MAKE ME THINK THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN TWO INVOLVED ON OCCASION:

pg. 341 Hunting A Psychopath, Concord: “A month prior to this assault a man and a woman had been to the victim’s house supposedly from the Mormon Church. That church doesn’t send out male & female duo’s it’s usually two young men.

Pg. 342. HaP Concord: Two nights prior to the attack, a couple very nearby heard a prowler in the house. The husband turned on the lights, went downstairs. The wife ran to the window and saw two men running through her yard and jumping over her rear fence into the church parking lot on the other side of the fence.

Pg. 344 HaP Concord 11:30 p.m. two weeks prior a couple heard noises outside their house. Stepping outside to investigate they saw two men running from the area of their house to a car, jumped in and quickly drove away.



DESCRIPTIONS:

#3 Malaga, Rancho Cordova 8/29/76 Military bearing, ramrod straight (not strong housewife said she could have taken him in a fair fight if he didn’t have a club.)

#7 Kipling, Carmichael possibly bow legged, or slouch, medium build

Subsequent descriptions go from medium build to slight build, to slightly stocky to slender to medium but thin legs, to abnormally muscular thighs and calves, to small pot belly, to stocky but no pot belly and no flab


Legs :

#1 6/17/76 muscular legs

#16 4-/02/77 large thighs

#27 11/10/77 slender legs

#36 6/26/78 big thighs

#40 10/28/78 not muscular legs



Leg Hair:

(I’m particularly interested in leg hair because head hair can be changed by haircuts and the use of wigs.)

#1 6/16/76 lots of dark hair on legs

#3 7/1/7/76 Not much hair on legs

#4 9/4/76 lots of lighter hair on legs

#7 10/18/76 HEAVY BLACK HAIR ON LEGS AND ARMS

#13 2/7/77 very hairy on legs

#15 3/18/77 course stubble on legs

#17 4/15/77 not much hair on arms or legs, not course, light brown

#20 5/14/77 Very hairy legs

#21 5/17/77 Very hairy legs

#26 10/27/77 light leg hair

#40 10/28/78 very dark, moderately hairy legs

#43 12/9/78 hairy legs


Hands/fingers:

#34 6/7/78 short fingers, calloused hands, rough thumbs

#43 12/9/78 calloused hands

#47 6/11/78 small soft hands


Oddity:

#36 6/24/78 Hairy butt


What stands out to me: is slender to stocky, ramrod straight to slouch, no body fat to pot belly, calloused hands and rough thumbs to small soft hands and thin legs to big thighs to leg hair differences.



SKETCHES:

The dark haired sketches that look nothing like JJD but look like someone with a connection to him. earons.wordpress.com/

Elvis attack #22 4th Parkway So. Sacramento 5/28/77 is the one that looks almost identical to the possible accomplice I have in mind.

Primrose man, #12, near Primrose Drive, Citrus Heights sketch dated 1/22/77

French Prince of College View, Victims #29/#30 (2 sisters) College View, Carmichael 1/28/78


One thing I'd like to find but will have to reread the books

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2018 18:18:30 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

First, there was only one set of shoe prints found ever.
Children in the homes never reported seeing more than one person.
Most people don't believe there was someone else present when he talked to "someone".  Almost always they heard no reply, no footsteps.

However, there were times a few people did think there was somebody else present.  One person thought they heard a female voice. 
AND.......
#17 4/15/77 Cherrelyn Way, Carmichael HuntingAPsychopath page 208 Detective Shelby, retired at the time met a former sister-in-law of the victim.  The victim gave a different account of what happened to her family than she did to the police.  (Embarrassment?) "She told them she was certain there were two rapists.  During the first sexual assault the suspect, as in all the other assaults, did not allow his full weight to come to rest on her.  This was the guy with the small penis.  After he was finished assaulting her, he stepped out of the house and into the backyard.  Then he came back in and climbed onto the bed to assault her again.  This time the bed sank down much further than the first time, and he allowed his full weight to bear down on her.  Not only that, but he had a normal sized penis.  There was more than one trip out that back door, and more than one sexual assault that night."

So the above account does not come from the victim herself and Detective Shelby continues:  "My only issue with what the victim allegedly told her family is that none of the victims I spoke with, nor with whom Carol spoke, ever told us they thought there was more than one suspect."

#14 3/8/77 Thornwood, Sacramento.   many hang up calls, no talking, just listening. The last one a WOMAN asked for the girl’s parent, when parent came to answer nobody there!

Goleta 12/30/79 On the night of the Offerman/Manning murders there were GSK burglaries.  One was on Queen Ann.  At 6:10 p.m. the teenage next door neighbor of the burglary victim reported a female on the front porch of the burglary victim.  7:00 p.m. the neighbor sees a man appearing to ring the doorbell of the burglary victim.  At 7:30 the neighbor exits her home and sees the same man appearing to ring the doorbell of the same neighbor.  

A horn beeped, a knock on a window while the EAR was inside.   I know that the Tuolumne victim #24 clears up that it was his friends knocking and ringing his doorbell but I'm trying to find where I read that in different attack the woman said he heard a horn beeping and someone knocking at the door and window.  In my memory it was a Concord victim but rereading those chapters, it apparently was not.  Beeping was heard because the key was left in the ignition and it beeps when the door is opened.  I might be thinking of that, but I believe there was another instance.  (If anyone recalls can you post that information?)

HERE ARE A FEW MORE THINGS THAT MAKE ME THINK THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN TWO INVOLVED ON OCCASION:

pg. 341 Hunting A Psychopath, Concord: “A month prior to this assault a man and a woman had been to the victim’s house supposedly from the Mormon Church. That church doesn’t send out male & female duo’s it’s usually two young men.

Pg. 342. HaP Concord: Two nights prior to the attack, a couple very nearby heard a prowler in the house. The husband turned on the lights, went downstairs. The wife ran to the window and saw two men running through her yard and jumping over her rear fence into the church parking lot on the other side of the fence.

Pg. 344 HaP Concord 11:30 p.m. two weeks prior a couple heard noises outside their house. Stepping outside to investigate they saw two men running from the area of their house to a car, jumped in and quickly drove away.



DESCRIPTIONS:

#3 Malaga, Rancho Cordova 8/29/76 Military bearing, ramrod straight (not strong housewife said she could have taken him in a fair fight if he didn’t have a club.)

#7 Kipling, Carmichael possibly bow legged, or slouch, medium build

Subsequent descriptions go from medium build to slight build, to slightly stocky to slender to medium but thin legs, to abnormally muscular thighs and calves, to small pot belly, to stocky but no pot belly and no flab


Legs :

#1 6/17/76 muscular legs

#16 4-/02/77 large thighs

#27 11/10/77 slender legs

#36 6/26/78 big thighs

#40 10/28/78 not muscular legs



Leg Hair:

(I’m particularly interested in leg hair because head hair can be changed by haircuts and the use of wigs.)

#1 6/16/76 lots of dark hair on legs

#3 7/1/7/76 Not much hair on legs

#4 9/4/76 lots of lighter hair on legs

#7 10/18/76 HEAVY BLACK HAIR ON LEGS AND ARMS

#13 2/7/77 very hairy on legs

#15 3/18/77 course stubble on legs

#17 4/15/77 not much hair on arms or legs, not course, light brown

#20 5/14/77 Very hairy legs

#21 5/17/77 Very hairy legs

#26 10/27/77 light leg hair

#40 10/28/78 very dark, moderately hairy legs

#43 12/9/78 hairy legs


Hands/fingers:

#34 6/7/78 short fingers, calloused hands, rough thumbs

#43 12/9/78 calloused hands

#47 6/11/78 small soft hands


Oddity:

#36 6/24/78 Hairy butt


What stands out to me: is slender to stocky, ramrod straight to slouch, no body fat to pot belly, calloused hands and rough thumbs to small soft hands and thin legs to big thighs to leg hair differences.



SKETCHES:

The dark haired sketches that look nothing like JJD but look like someone with a connection to him. earons.wordpress.com/

Elvis attack #22 4th Parkway So. Sacramento 5/28/77 is the one that looks almost identical to the possible accomplice I have in mind.

Primrose man, #12, near Primrose Drive, Citrus Heights sketch dated 1/22/77

French Prince of College View, Victims #29/#30 (2 sisters) College View, Carmichael 1/28/78


One thing I'd like to find but will have to reread the books

I thought there was at least one rape where the victim thought a different guy raped her the second time, with a different size penis.

I don't think LE will delve deeply, if at all, into what exactly happened in the Sac rape spree. They will concentrate on convicting JJD for murder. The cops really have no reason to go back into every rape and compile as much info as possible. It's not their job. Maybe if JJD eventually decides to talk to some intrepid journalist, more info will emerge.

[btk]

Im 100% there is was a copycat.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

endoftheworld, see my second paragraph, it's #17. The thing is, this is being reported by the sister-in-law and not the victim herself. So is this reliable? However, back then the poor victim felt ruined, shame, whispered about and embarrassed. Many rape victims didn't come forward because of the shame they should not have felt. So it's plausible she would not tell LE there were two. One is bad enough. I don't know. I do hope LE asks her that and can clear that up. There is a sketch for 4th Parkway, the Elvis sketch, that looks like a photo of someone associated with DeAngelo. That really is of interest to me and makes me take these instances of possibly two perps very seriously on at least one occasion.

[retrosacto]

The rapes will link EAR back to VR and forward to ONS. They will be prosecuted as kidnappings, primarily, in order to establish the MO.

[retrosacto]

99, does the woman in the car with the decal factor in?

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Oct 14, 2018 18:48:02 GMT btk said:

Im 100% there is was a copycat.

Are you talking about STRICKLAND, DAVID Lived in Sacramento and in Texas.  His sister helped him pick up and molest girls.  It doesn't seem like she realizes today the magnitude of what she did.  He also had an accomplice, they referred to themselves and #1 and #2.  His sister thinks he was a copy cat for the EAR in Sacramento but when you read of his crimes there are major differences.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Oct 14, 2018 19:17:03 GMT retrosacto said:

99, does the woman in the car with the decal factor in?

retrosacto, I was just thinking about that.  There was an unconscious woman in an El Camino with an AFC sticker on it that entered the base in Coronado, San Diego. . AFC sticker was on the bumper of an El Camino spotted near a rape on Sandbar Circle, Carmichael, Ca, (it was parked on the levee).
  The guard allowed entrance to a white man who gave the name and rank of a black soldier. That was not discovered until the sign in was researched at a later date. The driver told the guard it was a decal from North Island NAS, which was not the case. (confirmed there was an unconscious woman in the front seat)

Was that woman sleeping? drunk? drugged? a wife? girlfriend? accomplice? victim? prostitute? random person picked up at a bar?   I don't know the answer but it's so difficult to have these questions and how long do we have to wait for some answers

[andrew]

Very risky for jjd to have another guy on board for rapes, jjd was too careful to have another person slipping up and talking. Maybe jjd had a burglary friend in the early days or brother etc but defo was alone during the rapes and murders. There was a time whena womans voice was heard did ear have a gf at that time? Maybe she knew he was a burglar and went along?

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

There is DNA for Concord, indicating only one person but #17 they have no DNA. Yes, that is one indication away from there being two. It's hard enough for one person to keep a secret, much less two. Loose lips sink ships especially when drinking. All these years and nobody talked.

UPDATE: The only time I recall that a woman voice was heard was at the Tuolumne attack #24, pg. 275 Hunting A Psychopath. This is where the horn was beeping, ringing the doorbell and knocking on the window and a woman's voice heard. But.....Victor Hays, the male victim, has come out on t.v. interviews twice now and clarified that it was his friends knocking at the door etc. I cannot recall right now if there are other instances of beeping, knocking or a woman's voice.

[woofytreats]

Is there separate DNA for Concord ( I'm assuming you mean Belann Ct. )?? I was under the impression we still only have the Contra Costa DNA from three attacks in Danville and San Ramon.

[All Growed Up!!]

The honking and door knocking accomplice was dispelled by Victor Hayes #34, where he Describes that being his friends here: www.mercurynews.com/2018/07/15/lot-of-shame-lot-of-anger-for-the-first-time-since-golden-state-killers-arrest-a-male-victim-gives-rare-interview/%C2%A0

[All Growed Up!!]

BTW Sandia, you know a lot of chit! You’re an encyclopedia of EAR-ONS facts!

[Any of N]

Very few of those composite sketches look anything like DeAngelo. This might be due to many things, such as the vagueness of facial memories, the limitations of the sketch-making process, and the wigs we now take for granted that he wore. Yet one is free to wonder if there might be something more to it.

Then there's the question of how DeAngelo found the time. Nearly everyone was convinced that the EAR was stalking and prowling like it was his full-time job. Instead it turned out that he was a full-time cop in Auburn during most of the Sacramento phase. Maybe DeAngelo didn't need much sleep. Maybe he had phenomenal time-management skills. Maybe he did things to feign extra recon work. Or maybe he had something else up his sleeve.

It might not be far-fetched to speculate about an accomplice, one who helped with the stalking and prowling. Somebody who made the crank phone calls, perhaps, or allowed himself to be seen in the neighborhood. It was a low-risk strategy if he was only doing the preliminary set-up work and had plenty of alibis for the actual attacks.  

[missingwinner]

Despite it sounding like a bad Scream twist, I think the accomplice was...

... Chief Willick!