Theory: Kevin Coe involved in Sarda Way or EAR Series?

[kg]

Sept 5, 2019 18:26:42 GMT sammyt said:

Sept 4, 2019 19:48:43 GMT elir said:

None us are , but are there text books or lab protocols online from the time which could point to the most likely techniques used ?
I do think if the rape kit results showed a low sperm count that LE would be aware of it . There certainly were limitations in forensics tech of the time but if he ejaculated then sperm count data was available , knowing his counts were low or non existent would provide potentially useful physical evidence - for example a very low or no count could suggest a vasectomy or play into the various theories about his health so is there any info on sperm count or motility . Have you checked w Winters ? If Ear pretty consistently appeared to have a normal count and Coe never had a normal count it would rule him out . If there were certain abnormalities found in EARs sperm that are more consistent with Coe’s issues it could keep him under consideration.

I seem to remember that one profile suggested EAR may have had a vasectomy, due to low sperm count... I may be mis-remembering though...

I doubt if DeAngelo, as a father of three, had a low sperm count. 

It seems like all the theories about EAR having a strange physical condition were proved wrong with the arrest of JJD, who was in good physical health into his 70s...

Albion posted this in 2013 (note Winters mentions this in her book as well but it is confusing as she states that the perp was falsely determined to have had a vasectomy but later testing demonstrated he was a nonsecretor, I do not understand the relationship here, no sperm vs secretor status, these are two separate things, low sperm count can result in falsely identifying someone as a nonsecretor but the question is was there sperm present or not?):


Harrington Background Information (pdf format)

sites.google.com/site/jjmcgr/documents



Aside from obtaining a list of friends and coworkers from the family, the investigators

also asked some bizarre questions. The investigators first asked Bruce if Keith had had a

vasectomy. When Bruce answered no, the investigators explained to him that the serology lab

had recovered two different samples of semen from Patti’s body. They determined that one of the

samples belonged to someone who had had a vasectomy. Since there were no medical records

Shen 8

showing that Keith had had a vasectomy, the investigator determined that Patti had been raped

before her death and the sample was left over from the perpetrator. The other sample, the police

presumed, belonged to Keith. The investigators also asked if Patti participated in macramé

crafting, which Bruce was unsure of. The investigators told him that the couple’s wrists were tied

with a special rope from macramé, using intricate knotting patterns. Aside from these tidbits of

information that were not nearly enough to paint a picture of the crime or its perpetrator, the

investigators failed to provide anything else to the Harringtons.

[sammyt]

Why wasn't the second semen sample found at the Harrington crime scene run through Parabon? Or compared to a current relative of the Harringtons?

Perhaps it has been... but just presuming the second sample belonged to Keith is ridiculous. At the very least, the police should have compared the blood type to Keith Harrington's blood type.

[kg]

Sept 5, 2019 18:44:24 GMT sammyt said:

Why wasn't the second semen sample found at the Harrington crime scene run through Parabon? Or compared to a current relative of the Harringtons?

Perhaps it has been... but just presuming the second sample belonged to Keith is ridiculous. At the very least, the police should have compared the blood type to Keith Harrington's blood type.

I hope that was done, but I am getting tired of hoping for things here.

[sammyt]

Sept 5, 2019 18:46:46 GMT kg said:

Sept 5, 2019 18:44:24 GMT sammyt said:

Why wasn't the second semen sample found at the Harrington crime scene run through Parabon? Or compared to a current relative of the Harringtons?

Perhaps it has been... but just presuming the second sample belonged to Keith is ridiculous. At the very least, the police should have compared the blood type to Keith Harrington's blood type.

I hope that was done, but I am getting tired of hoping for things here.

Well there was no SOL on murder, so all of the forensic evidence should have been stored in the Harrington case.  Ironic perhaps in a murder case which inspired a DNA database.

[elir]

If they found sexual fluids from rape at the Harrington murder they likely did dna testing once it became available to link that murder to the others in the ONS series. We know that the ONS and EAR were linked in by dna around 2001 so they had dna available at that time . If there were dna evidence that was not consistent they would have known it long ago .

The reason they needed a fresh sample for gedmatch was because codis uses a different system than the genealogy sites , so they needed a sample to code the dna in the proper format before submitting the data .

Each murder should have had dna done once the technology became available. While the ONS crimes were assumed to be linked the dna testing would have either confirmed it or questioned that hypothesis .

There must have been dna testing .

[elir]

There was DNA testing:

www.ocregister.com/2018/04/25/southern-california-investigators-trying-to-solve-4-orange-county-murder-cases-never-gave-up-the-hunt-for-the-golden-state-killer/amp/
“DNA evidence led (Larry) Pool to link the Harringtons’ killings to a pair of Irvine slayings.
In 1981, the killer broke into the home of Manuela Witthuhn, whose husband was at the hospital with an illness. Investigators believe that the assailant meant to target the couple and was surprised to find Witthuhn home alone, but killed her anyway. Witthuhn’s husband, David Witthuhn, was a suspect in her death before he was cleared by DNA. He died in 2008.”

This isn’t the EAR series where the Sacramento county rape kits are gone, they did dna testing , they used if to link the murders and rule out suspects, with the possible exception of offerman manning , I’m sure someone here knows the details but with that murder there was no obvious rape so I’m guessing it was linked on MO not dna but I could be misremembering .

[sammyt]

Sept 7, 2019 7:29:44 GMT elir said:

If they found sexual fluids from rape at the Harrington murder they likely did dna testing once it became available to link that murder to the others in the ONS series. We know that the ONS and EAR were linked in by dna around 2001 so they had dna available at that time . If there were dna evidence that was not consistent they would have known it long ago .

The reason they needed a fresh sample for gedmatch was because codis uses a different system than the genealogy sites , so they needed a sample to code the dna in the proper format before submitting the data .

Each murder should have had dna done once the technology became available. While the ONS crimes were assumed to be linked the dna testing would have either confirmed it or questioned that hypothesis .

There must have been dna testing .

Of course, but was there DNA testing of the second sperm sample found at the Harrington scene, or was it just presumed to have been from Mr Harrington?

[elir]

Can you link the source info that says there is a definitely evidence of sexual fluids from second person at the scene? Or better yet if someone has links to Larry Pool why not ask him ?

[elir]

“Sometime after this case had gone cold, investigators contacted Bruce Harrington and told him that the man who raped Patti had had a vasectomy. Then in 2010, Detective Larry Montgomery checked with the scientist that handled all of the DNA evidence and leaned there was no such evidence indicating a vasectomy”
From an archived version of Winter’s site prior to the arrest of JJD.

[elir]

Reading up on this , I think there could be a number of reasons for differing interpretations/ misinterpretations however with a caveat that I am not a forensic scientist and I am trying to understand how police might misinterpret results given to them , so yes it’s basically wild speculation.

Sperm degrades at differing rates according to the conditions.


Winters reported that The Harrington’s were intimate that night so there must be physical evidence of such ,


The Harrington’s were found several days after the murders , the vaginal swabs would be unlikely to have viable sperm as it would have degraded long before the they were found ( but there could still be dna)
By contrast sperm and sexual fluids on a blanket or comforter could dry out leaving a viable sperm sample

I am guessing that the lab might have explained possible scenarios regarding the presence of sperm in some samples and not in others but this might have been misinterpreted by some as suggesting a vasectomy . This misinterpretation was later cleared up by detective Montgomery talking directly to a lab expert.

Or I could be completely wrong , so???


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[kg]

Sept 7, 2019 18:49:40 GMT elir said:

Reading up on this , I think there could be a number of reasons for differing interpretations/ misinterpretations however with a caveat that I am not a forensic scientist and I am trying to understand how police might misinterpret results given to them , so yes it’s basically wild speculation.

Sperm degrades at differing rates according to the conditions.


Winters reported that The Harrington’s were intimate that night so there must be physical evidence of such ,


The Harrington’s were found several days after the murders , the vaginal swabs would be unlikely to have viable sperm as it would have degraded long before the they were found ( but there could still be dna)
By contrast sperm and sexual fluids on a blanket or comforter could dry out leaving a viable sperm sample

I am guessing that the lab might have explained possible scenarios regarding the presence of sperm in some samples and not in others but this might have been misinterpreted by some as suggesting a vasectomy . This misinterpretation was later cleared up by detective Montgomery talking directly to a lab expert.

Or I could be completely wrong , so???


[br

Exactly, I agree.  The information we have suggests there was confusion and the possibility that an errant explanation from lab findings/observations could have been made.  Even the retraction is confusing.  Winters book does state that semen was found in three places and it was believed it belonged to two different individuals and some observation led to the question of whether Mr. Harrington had a vasectomy. It is hoped that all three samples were tested to the extent they could be for presence/absence of sperm, secretor status, and DNA profile.  All three of these are separate tests and while the status of one could confound the results of another, nonetheless absence of sperm provides no information from which to interpret secretor status and secretor status testing does not provide you with the information necessary to determine if someone has had a vasectomy.  So altogether it does not seem possible to arrive at any concrete conclusions from what is provided.  The real value here is that it seems to reveal a state of confusion regarding how to interpret the evidence.  The GSK series are lowest on my list for Coe but in the first failed southern California attack we do find one of Coe's signatures present, the insertion of a gloved digit into the mouth of a victim when the perpetrator caught up with her outside her home.  This was to prevent her from screaming while outside and it was good thing she was able to get one out because it possibly saved her life. If indeed Coe factors in here we know for certain he could not have been involved in all of the southern California incidents and it would be very unlikely he was involved in the Witthuhn murder and impossible to have been involved in the last two attacks as one was during his trial in Spokane and in the last attack he was incarcerated.  We do know for certain by DNA that JJD was involved in six of seven attacks and in the absence of DNA in Offerman/Manning I am good with assuming he was present there too.

This reminds me of a rape case in Cheney, WA.  The person accused in that case was shortly after framed by Coe for some of his handiwork in Spokane.  I have my suspicions that Coe may also have been the perpetrator in Cheney if indeed there was truly a rape which it seems there was.  There were commonalities between that case and some of the cases we are interested in here in that a) a screen was pried off and a window entered, b) victim reported the offender sat on her back for a period of time, c) the lab had difficulty finding sperm in the vaginal swab sample.

[elir]

Sept 7, 2019 18:49:40 GMT elir said:

Reading up on this , I think there could be a number of reasons for differing interpretations/ misinterpretations however with a caveat that I am not a forensic scientist and I am trying to understand how police might misinterpret results given to them , so yes it’s basically wild speculation.

Sperm degrades at differing rates according to the conditions.


Winters reported that The Harrington’s were intimate that night so there must be physical evidence of such ,


The Harrington’s were found several days after the murders , the vaginal swabs would be unlikely to have viable sperm as it would have degraded long before the they were found ( but there could still be dna)
By contrast sperm and sexual fluids on a blanket or comforter could dry out leaving a viable sperm sample

I am guessing that the lab might have explained possible scenarios regarding the presence of sperm in some samples and not in others but this might have been misinterpreted by some as suggesting a vasectomy . This misinterpretation was later cleared up by detective Montgomery talking directly to a lab expert.

Or I could be completely wrong , so???


[br

I just read in a textbook that in a rape-homicide sperm may not be broken down at the same rate, in some cases it can be detected for up to two weeks, but does not explain why. I am going to keep reading, see what I can find as a standard expectation, since texts can differ.

[kg]

Coe's initial conviction was overturned in June of 1984. Later he was released on bail in Spokane. Sources appear to conflict as how long he was out on bail with some reporting nearly a year but it looks like it more closer to seven months.

news.google.com/newspapers?nid=0klj8wIChNAC&dat=19840608&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

[kg]

Coe confesses to an 'accidental killing' of one of his vicitms to another prison inmate in Washington State Pententiary prison library:

Read the full story here:  news.google.com/newspapers?nid=0klj8wIChNAC&dat=19840622&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

And then consider it in light of this never solved cold case at WSU in Pullman, WA from 1971 when Coe was purportedly living back in Spokane:  www.khq.com/news/justice-for-joyce-years-later-family-of-murdered-wsu-student/article_f79d6aae-a60f-5d1b-af44-2704b0199a9e.html  Coe was enrolled at WSU starting 1965 for supposedly two years so he would have been quite familiar with the campus.  The details don't fit what Coe stated, i.e. this victim was stabbed but then I would not trust Coe's account of anything.  I do think his admission that one of his victim's died might be true.

[kg]

Aug 11, 2019 12:47:06 GMT kg said:

Spokesman Review 02/24/81:

How many offenders in history threaten to kill the police chief in a phone call or a written note?  Here we have the SHR threatening to kill an editor and a police chief.

In this letter, a notorious offender threatens to kill a police chief and an ex-police chief along with a few others...I think it is really gutsy to threaten to kill a police chief or any LE officer and to do it on the phone or in writing seems really out there.  What percent of offenders in the 1970s and 1980s did that?  Sort of narrows down the pool of suspects IMO, not just your average garden variety killer/rapist.  The EAR did this sort of thing too, calling the police station to issue threats, telling victims 'tell the pigs' and stuff like that.
www.zodiackiller.com/NewZLetter2.html

And messing around with double/single consonants, how many offenders do that in addition to threatening to kill the police?  Zodiac: Christmass (and many more, lots of analysis on Zodiac and his consonant issues) Coe: Epi**copaleyns, Amareeka, Cuntree

The threatening to kill the police is what really gets me.  Wasn't Coe just a rapist, isn't that what everyone believes?  Yet he threatened to kill the police chief and the city editor.  And the Zodiac killer threatened newspaper reporter Paul Avery.  So many connections here, but no actual proof. Surely in the collections of evidence somewhere there is more that can shed a light here so the truth could be known more fully.  Yet we do not have access to this information.  But if we did, would we already know?